Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[TheManaLord]

what is that question? like, what kind of question?

 

[Divinokage]

Kage, when you D-Throw vs Spacies, why do you always Neutral-A? Teach me your ways!

You can chain grab Falco with downthrow to death basically I think. Unless I don't know about a DI or I can't do it correctly.

On Fox and Falcon, though as I said Downthrow or upthrow at 30%, Jab, no tech, fair! lol. If I always do it? hell ya, why not?

 

[spider_sense]

falco is easy as **** lol,
sheik is pretty much impossible against sheiks like forwards/m2k's, but any lower than that its 60-40.

C.fal is pretty tough for ganon but most falcons suck against ganon so its not a problem.

Kage im def going to SPOC, so you better be there so i can wreck you with your WC DI son! haha

Dawg don't even talk **** about Ganon! You need to come at my level. Get at me Nuggah!!! >:O

 

[Divinokage]

My WC DI, Linguini? lol... I am the source of WC DI and brought it upon everyone because i found it funny! I think I'll get to see much WC DI of you! =P

It started when I went to Calgary 1 year or 2 years ago now? I forget.. I won that tournament which was a WC tournament. You should of seen the amount of WC DI I've seen lol, at least 300+.. and then I made it so that when someone bad DIs it's WC. =P

 

[RestInPeace]

You can chain grab Falco with downthrow to death basically I think. Unless I don't know about a DI or I can't do it correctly.

On Fox and Falcon, though as I said Downthrow or upthrow at 30%, Jab, no tech, fair! lol. If I always do it? hell ya, why not?

I got the question when I was watching the match Vs Shiz, and if you got a D-Throw you just Jabbed. Sometimes it lead to nothing, which was why I was asking.

 

[spider_sense]

Usually when it's up the Ganon's timing, once you d-throw to neutral A; you have the option to JC-grab down-throw into another grab. However, the Falco usually techs and it's pretty hard to keep up the pace.

 

[Divinokage]

I got the question when I was watching the match Vs Shiz, and if you got a D-Throw you just Jabbed. Sometimes it lead to nothing, which was why I was asking.

Well it can lead to techchasing downairs but obviously you can't get those 100% lol. Else I would probably annihilate everyone.

 

[RestInPeace]

So the main aim of D-Throw Jab is to Tech Chase Dair into finisher? I'll start applying that now.

 

[Divinokage]

So the main aim of D-Throw Jab is to Tech Chase Dair into finisher? I'll start applying that now.

Well I think it's gonna be usually, if he techs the jab, he's gonna roll backwards so I think a fair is gonna be the usual move. You just gotta watch how he techs, reaction time is key for Ganon. If he techs in place fair, if he techs away then chase him right away Fair, if he techs towards you, downair to whatever you like.

 

[TheManaLord]

dair to dair for massive damage and more followup. possibly even more dair.

 

[Zenjamin]

The only truth is that you gave up and betrayed Ganon. I'm the only one left!

Get freaking ***** Linguini!!

Ok. I find this attitude mildly nausating.

Every ganon who has been paying attention owes Linguini sooo much. A good chunck of ganon's modern meta-game comes from him.

And I never heard guini say that he was giving up ganon. Only that he would have to use sheik against the best of the best in tournaments.
Jebus. Did the Mew2 boards turn on Taj because he uses high tier against the likes of forward in tournaments?

Hell no.




And Kage, I think its great that you want to be the best ganon and contribute. I really do. But dont assume that you are there or almost there, because you have a looooooooooooooong way to go.
I know you have won some serious tournaments in Canada, but when I watch you play, I am always surprised at how often you roll or fail to wave land and how short your actual WDs are.
Where as when I watch guini, I see zero flaws.

And this isnt just a "if your not american, your not even in the same league" mentality, Because I have always seen the Mexican ganon, 1233, as underrated. and verry good. Wish he could come to the states.




But ya.
I respect you for wanting to be the best you can be.
But you also have to respect and awknolodge the ganons that are better then you... Off the top of my head in no order... Linguini, Renth, Mangus, Chaddd, RockCrock, and 1233.



Sont get me wrong. you are a good ganon with good spacing and combos. But its the way you move. And that is the gap that needs to be crossed that separates the good from the great.
When you move, you move to get from pointA to attack at pointB.
But when Linguini moves, there is always a mindgame behind it. Designed to get his opponet off the edge in as few as many moves as possible, and as safely as possible.

his wave dashes, pivots, dash dances, wave lands, and spacing are used in perfect conjunction so that he is never just moving so he can get into a position to perform a cool combo. He moves to induce an overwhelming sense of speed to induce a mindgame to put himself at a perfect distance away from his opponent, so as he can put the other guy off of the edge as quickly as possible... and from there its game over.


I dont really want to make this a personal comparison about ganons. But discussing this aspect is important I think.
here is an example of what I mean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSDigbxnido

Now, you never fell too far behind a pro US player, because you had good muscle memory. good combos and were abpe to take advantage of the falco when he messed up.
However, You were attacking him when he was not vulnerable and could shield. You were chasing him, getting hits in whenever you could catch up. And not only was there problems with your (non-existant) wave landing game, but you actually did things like rolling while on a platform.


Anyways, you were able to abuse the mistakes of your opponent through the knowledge you have of how ganon attacks. But untill you learn to move and position ganon properly, the best players will always be at least one step ahead of you.


Its like the difference between fishing with a fishing pole, and casting a net.
One immerses itself in the environment of its prey, and the other creates a completely new environment for it's prey.







PS:
I never mentioned Tipman because I havent seen a vid of him in years. I have zero idea of how he plays now.

 

[TheManaLord]

that's just kage's attitude... he's not super serious about and didn't mean any disrespect. plus he's Quebecois LOL

 

[Divinokage]

Heh you again... Sorry but I think I am better than all of them now, unless proven otherwise. Hehehe! =P

And also I don't owe anyone anything, except Tipman of course because he showed me in one of his great videos that Ganon can do cool stuff in Triforce of Power. Other than that, my Ganon comes from my own experience, I never look up vids at all.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Heh you again... Sorry but I think I am better than all of them now, unless proven otherwise. Hehehe! =P

And also I don't owe anyone anything, except Tipman of course because he showed me in one of his great videos that Ganon can do cool stuff in Triforce of Power. Other than that, my Ganon comes from my own experience, I never look up vids at all.

To Zenjamin,
You do know he just placed 5th at The Revival of Melee, right? Using all Ganon? That is an accomplishment worth some credit. Also, I wouldn't say all of those Ganon mains are better than him unless they have the credentials to prove it.

To Kage,
Better than Linguini? Who's better than Linguini? That guy is like the m2k of ganon, he's a machine! Or is m2k the Linguini of Marth? You be the judge.

 

[Divinokage]

I think Linguini is the Ganon of M2k lol. M2k of Ganon? What's the difference? lol.

And ya yesterday I played smash with my buddies and for my first time I saw a phantom hit falcon punch lol.

 

[Zenjamin]

Hey. I never said he was bad.
But if your the type to completely disregard perfectly legitamate critisism/advice about how you move and positions yourself, and if your the type to brag about not learning from the ganon community... then with that attitude your never going to bring ganon to his full potential.


Attitude, mindgames, how you move, and ingenuity.
Those are the things that you need to cross the bridge from good, to great.



BTW Clue, Kage is better then you.
He has the experience and confidence so that when certain opportunities present themselves, his fingers react automatically to punish.
However, judging from the old vids you used to show, and how much I saw you improve, you have those four things that give you great potential.

I wish I could combine your outlook with Kage's reaction.

 

[Divinokage]

Never going to bring Ganon to it's full potential? Give me a break. I am Ganon **** it!

And about all those waveland stuff, right now I can't do it well nor do I think it gives me more option because I get punished anyways if I do it. I don't bother with it as it will make my overall game crappier. That's how I work. And if I know it's gonna make my game crappier then why bother, in friendlies I always test new things anyways, maybe one day I'll get around to it if it works of course, if not then screw all that flashy stuff. I don't need it.

 

[CluelessBTD]

BTW Clue, Kage is better then you.
He has the experience and confidence so that when certain opportunities present themselves, his fingers react automatically to punish.
However, judging from the old vids you used to show, and how much I saw you improve, you have those four things that give you great potential.

I wish I could combine your outlook with Kage's reaction.

I know he is better than me, he beat me at Pound 3. I wish I had the opportunity to get better at melee, but I'm just getting worse as time goes by because nobody in the Houston Texas area plays anymore. I keep calling people, but it is just slowing down. I don't want to quit, but if I have no opponents, what's the point of playing? I blame Xyro/TGM for convincing people here that melee is "a sinking ship." Haha, I even tried to teach my gf to play...desperation

Good luck Kage, I can't wait to see a recording of you VS a good Sheik MAIN.

 

[Divinokage]

Well who would you like to see me take down? =P

 

[TheManaLord]

Mango .

Who cares if it's sheik or not sheik. Just beat the best and you become the best.

 

[RestInPeace]

Never going to bring Ganon to it's full potential? Give me a break. I am Ganon **** it!

And about all those waveland stuff, right now I can't do it well nor do I think it gives me more option because I get punished anyways if I do it. I don't bother with it as it will make my overall game crappier. That's how I work. And if I know it's gonna make my game crappier then why bother, in friendlies I always test new things anyways, maybe one day I'll get around to it if it works of course, if not then screw all that flashy stuff. I don't need it.

If I Fair someone from one end of the stage to another, I find that the fastest way to chase is to waveland off and onto platforms.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

NC Bud is trash. NC Hardcore scene is pretty sweet.

I'm more of a fan of s.FL's scene. I was at a Hatebreed show in 2007 and the pits were wild as ****. Got a little lock jawed but I was all over the pits.

I was just talking to Linguini about shows and I thought he was the one who posted this, lol. Pyro you hit up shows much?

 

[Renth]

@ Zenjamin:

Kages good, don't give him **** I can't wait to play him. There's no cockyness here and seeing who's better than blah blah blah. I'd love to play Kage, i'm sure we can learn a good bit from each other. He thinks he's the best Ganon? I still believe that belongs to Chaddd, just because of his tournament placings. Chaddd and Kage don't do the insane fancy **** Linguini and I do, that doesn't make him bad. but that's my OPINION, Kage does amazing with Ganon in tournament no hate.

@ Kage:

Mr. Warrior quit being so defensive it's all good.

 

[petoo0]

So....ummmm, renth come over HAHAH.

 

[Zenjamin]

you can call it giving someone **** if you want.
But I view ganon players and ganon in a scientific context... that is, what I can see and evaluate with my own eyes.

I dont care about the names, or the hype, or even the placings.
Those are contexts I can not get involved in.


But when I see someone rolling on a platform, or doing triangle jumps, or attacking fully shielded opponents close up, or acting like wave-landing is just pointless flare ,or disregarding the concepts of position and mindgames... Im going to notice.



And yes. I know Kage is good. I belive I have already said that... hes got the reactions, and he knows how to punish.
He is better then me. But I dont see him being better then "good".


I will point out every flaw I see. Not because im an ass and not because I want to make other people look bad.... But acting like someone has a near perfect game when you can observe much room for improvement... thats just silly.

 

[Renth]

So....ummmm, renth come over HAHAH.

??


@ Kage:

Another thing, I don't like your arguement that you're the "only" ganon main that uses straight ganon in tournament. It's like saying Chudat isn't the best IC player because he uses Pikachu in tournament.

 

[Divinokage]

??


@ Kage:

Another thing, I don't like your arguement that you're the "only" ganon main that uses straight ganon in tournament. It's like saying Chudat isn't the best IC player because he uses Pikachu in tournament.

It's not an argument, it's just me messing around. =p In person, I'm just a guy who likes ****** stuff and seeing ****.. and also friendly of course.

Also Zen, you gotta define perfection better because what does that actually mean? Is it really a combination of the 4 tools you said that are applied well? Well, to me it's not that, hell I don't even think I can define perfection myself in smash... because it doesn't exist. Have you ever seen a human attain perfection? No, you can't because it's not possible to get to... but I can still improve my power level. Now what I'm missing is that little something so that I can take down Mango... I don't know what since it's a very subtle thing but I'll keep training.

 

[spider_sense]

A little birdie told me Kage beat Linguini is Ganon dittos. But in all seriousness, I think Tipman and Linguini revolutionalized the way Ganon is being played today. I actually learned most of my technical prowess from Synikal and watching Renth. I learned matchups from playing/watching Linguini personally and from vids; and I also learned the basic concepts of Ganon from Thomas Tipman. Oh and Tipman is apparently mad rusty, but it'd probably would take him no time at all to get really good again.

I've also watched Kage, and he's not nearly as technical as Linguini, Renth or maybe even me, but his Ganon is mad beast. lol I was mad proud when I heard he placed 5th in NY.


I actually would want to play you Kage in G-dorf dittos. lol I already challenged Renth to a 100 pennies MM. Sooo...both of you need to come to Florida. (Especially Renth)

 

[chaddd]

*snip*

Whoa whoa whoa buddy. I don't know where all this verbal fellatio for Linguini came from, but we most definitely owe just about nothing to him for Ganon's metagame. In fact, the last thing new that any Ganon started using was the instant up air in and out of shield when I started telling people about it at VLS.

And I can't stand all this hype over nothing, seriously.

In terms of "Best Ganondorf" all these scrubs assume it's auto Linguini because he wavedashes more. But then you talk about his wavedash length being perfect? That's funny because that's the thing I noticed about him when he took my place as the Ganon on the South crew at FC Diamond (which is the only reason you know who he is by the way) is that his wavedashes are unusually short for a Ganon player in the crew match vs M2K. Notice how the length increases later on in his playing as he starts to master the concept? Yeah, when you were all s*cking his d*ck he wasn't that great, guys.

One time I played this other Ganon who thought he could beat me. We went to Corneria. Once the match started, he starts dashing all around and wavelanding like a pro. Slipping and sliding all over the place. After about 5 seconds of watching this, I forward aired him 4 times off the side of the stage. Get wrecked tech skill. Sliding all around with Ganondorf is a total commitment to that movement, not something I am not capable of, but something I realize is not the best option in every situation.

So, since I'm sick of f*cking talking about it, I'll sum it up for you.

Who do we owe all of Ganon's metagame to? Thomas Tipman, if you have any other answer you've been huffing paint.

Oh, and who's #1 Ganon? Well, I've 3 or 4 stocked every single professional Ganon player in the country right now. Just for your information.

 

[TheManaLord]

Oh **** ganon only international tournament must happen triple elimination.

 

[Zenjamin]

*smacks face*

Oh jesus.

I. Do. Not. CARE who is the best ganon. It doesnt matter. And that will even change from game to game as peoples skill fluctuates.
And I dont care who the ganon community thinks has the biggest d!ck.


All im getting at is that how you move and space yourself is an important tool that you have to heavily take into consideration if you want to be consistently play ganon at the top of his game.

And no **** WDing all over the place is just stupid if your not using it to space and position yourself.
Just because a hammer is a useful tool, doesnt mean some ******* wont hit himself in the thumb with it.

I just watch Kage play, and I noticed so many wasted oppertunities, and too many general mistakes that could have cost him even more then it did...




Ya know what? No more general **** talking. At least not for now.
Next time I criticize Kage's playstyle, or anyone else's for that matter, im going to post a match, and comment every time he screws up or misses an opportunity with a time of reference.




PS:
Im not saying flashy or technical ganons > all. You perhaps are a better comparison point to Kage then guini.
Neither of you look all that technical, but you never miss out on an opportunity to position/space yourself where you want to be... Or at least almost never. Nobody is perfect.
And often, when you do WD or WL its because it helps you get to a position quickly where you could not have gotten to without it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDimWrP9Ff8

 

[TheManaLord]

I don't see how Kage isn't the best Ganon. He constantly practices v really good ppl (bam pkm vwins quebec crew etc) and he travels A LOT. He just got 5th at RoM and he plays in U.S. tournies and beats established pro's... is it a fluke? It could be, people might not be used to ganon/his style. But right now I don't see any other ganons placing anywhere...

 

[Linguini]

lol been there done that, im not getting into this mess again.
I dont care about the title anymore since I dont main ganon, so you guys can duke it out,although I will say a few words in this post.

One thing I know for sure is that I DID influence the m,majority of new ganon players out there. Whenever I play ganons(except kage/chaddd) most of their style is based off mine,and I find them emulating alot of my strategies. Thats how I know I had a big impact on ganon's metagame.
Kage is pretty good, and is def better than me in dittos, but I think me and chaddd are above him in terms of knowing our character and overall skill. I may sound like a noob when I say this but I think the wins he got at ROM were from inexperience of the players vs.ganon.
How do you lose to Dr Peepee twice at TO4 and then get 5th at ROM? At first I thought he just got dramatically better, but after seeing vids I saw that he played the same.
Just dont take it too seriously guys.
Payce.

 

[-ACE-]

Linguini you going to HERB?

EDIT: I must say that I am still amazed that Kage doesn't ledge dash.

 

[Divinokage]

Vids of me vs Shiz.. well just to let you know that Shiz is insanely good. And I beat Jiano, KDJ, Jman and Azen. Can all those be flukes? I honestly doubt it.

Falco is my worst matchup, I'm still not sure what to do which is why I keep training.. what else do you want me to do? I can only keep on fighting and I will never give up!

 

[Scar]

one day you will be hokage

NEVER GIVE UP

 

[Renth]

best ganon debates are stupid. been there done that a million times.

 

[Divinokage]

They are but this debate wasn't about who's the best Ganon.. It was about me with my warrior attitude on the boards and I guess some of you can't take it or don't believe me when I say I can do it.

But, I will do it and I don't care what you guys say. I'm gonna be the hero to take down Mango!

 

[-ACE-]

Kage, do you really depend on some missed techs in your combos? lol like your patented dthrow + jab + missed tech + fair? I saw that you killed Shiz with it once in your set with him from ROM, but Zhu never missed the tech and usually punished you afterward. I'm guessing people miss that tech when they aren't expecting the jab. And still, I must say it again, no ledge dashing?? **** that move saves my *** all the time lol. The fact that you don't use it says something about the rest of your game. Lol ramble, but I'm just curious about your style. I don't want to sound like a critic, you're beast man and I like your general attitude toward this game. I never thought I'd see any Ganon beat KDJ or Azen. Too bad you aren't coming to HERB.

 

[TheManaLord]

He does.

But so does thunders combo.

Is that bad?