Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Uber Ice. I don't think any Ganondorf would beat him.

 

[Divinokage]

A lot of people say they are the Ganon slayer and then they get ***** by me. Dont know if I'll face him ever but sounds like a challenge.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Well, he's Rock Crock's brother, so go figure.

 

[Divinokage]

Well in that case only skill will make the difference. lol.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Uber Ice. I don't think any Ganondorf would beat him.

I think I watched a set of him and linguini and linguini won the set. I could be mistaken tho.

And what I've learned about IC vs ganon is watch out for that dsmash oos. Lol other than that its a weird *** matchup for sure

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Bailing out on FC. Hope you guys do great

personal life gonna personal

Disappointing, but totally understandable.
Hope everything works out for you dude and I'm sure we'll play some other time... Nobody really quits this game.

 

[-ACE-]

UBER ICE *****

SLIGHT.......... SLIGHT advantage kage i'd say. great IC main.... especially vs ganon

and bonus points since he hardly ever took smash seriously.

 

[G. Vice]

Uber Ice. I don't think any Ganondorf would beat him.

I've always wanted to play him. I remember me and Kage sitting down and playing an Ice Climber main once, and he said that we were both pretty exceptional at the matchup, so I've always wanted to try vs someone super legit.

 

[Renth]

I've always wanted to play him. I remember me and Kage sitting down and playing an Ice Climber main once, and he said that we were both pretty exceptional at the matchup, so I've always wanted to try vs someone super legit.

For me playing Uber ice.. he grabs me and then my stock is gone.

GGGGG

 

[G. Vice]

For me playing Uber ice.. he grabs me and then my stock is gone.

GGGGG

Yeah, I guess the level of skill for the Ganon would have to be demonstrated in mixups that prevent getting grabbed.

Idk, seems like it'd be tough, yet fun to try. Because ICs are fun to wreck once you start hitting them.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

If you guys don't mind, can you look over this video and gimme a critique? I know it sucks watching noobs play, but I would really appreciate it (and I swear I've gotten a bit better since you last saw me!)

At least look over the first match cuz I suck vs. falco

here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBYBbLfIK18&feature=youtu.be

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Trail I should be goood to travel Friday or Saturday next week to get to u before fc. I want in on the house of ganon. Just let me know what I need to do, and ill make it happen.

 

[G. Vice]

If you guys don't mind, can you look over this video and gimme a critique? I know it sucks watching noobs play, but I would really appreciate it (and I swear I've gotten a bit better since you last saw me!)

At least look over the first match cuz I suck vs. falco

here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBYBbLfIK18&feature=youtu.be

I watched 1:41 seconds, and my main issue is that you don't take advantage of the simple things that Ganon does well. You don't cover options off of rolls. You simply pick left or right, and try to guess a stomp there. Instead of jumping straight up, bair if he rolls back, land re-grab/fair if he rolls forward, you limit your options by just picking one or the other with almost no thought behind it(it seems at least- since often times you were done attack by the time he chose a direction to roll anyway). The secret is to fake out and position yourself to where you make your opponent feel like they need to roll a certain way, and then you have the stomp ready for them.

The fact that you can do those perfect wavelands, and waveland from the ledge with reverse ftilt is nice, but you won't get that far against anyone decent if you don't capitalize on the fundamentals of what Ganon is good at.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I watched 1:41 seconds, and my main issue is that you don't take advantage of the simple things that Ganon does well. You don't cover options off of rolls. You simply pick left or right, and try to guess a stomp there. Instead of jumping straight up, bair if he rolls back, land re-grab/fair if he rolls forward, you limit your options by just picking one or the other with almost no thought behind it(it seems at least- since often times you were done attack by the time he chose a direction to roll anyway). The secret is to fake out and position yourself to where you make your opponent feel like they need to roll a certain way, and then you have the stomp ready for them.

The fact that you can do those perfect wavelands, and waveland from the ledge with reverse ftilt is nice, but you won't get that far against anyone decent if you don't capitalize on the fundamentals of what Ganon is good at.

This is good, thanks. Anything else?

Ah. I see. Like a 1:07 where I should've punished his roll, I just... rolled

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I have some spare time tomorrow, so I'll watch it and see if I can give you any advice. I live near PP, so I clearly know lots about Falco, event though he always dittos me, so I really only have experience getting destroyed by his Ganon and Kirby.

I don't like the lack of Audio, though.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I don't like the lack of Audio, though.

Yea that's thanks to my EasyCrap $6 capture card

Thanks in advance for looking it over

 

[tm]

Hey guys, I'm having a bit of trouble with ledgedashing (ledgehop to waveland). When I do it to get back to the middle of the stage, about 50% of the time I miss it and usually end up sheilding at the edge. I don't SD very much but in tight matches it could make the difference. Also when I ledgedash -> regrab, I often just land first and then roll to the edge (which I'm already at).

Obviously I need to practice more, but if there are any tips that could help make my practice easier or more consistent, that'd be great. Thanks in advance.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Go to fc and we will show you the wayssss

Also, what's your input method of ledgedashing? I use quarter circle forward and r, but many people people have different methods.

 

[Divinokage]

I press down, jump (Y) pretty much the same time I pressed down and then waveland, or reverse waveland with R. Also as I'm jumping my joystick is either facing almost forward or backwards depending on what i want to do.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Yeah, that's how I do mine too. I forgot to mention jumping with y lol

 

[tm]

Bah I wish I could go to fc...

I have generally used away tilt to fall (immediately tilt forwards after that) and Y to jump, but have also tried cstick away and joystick to jump to see if I liked that better. I'm always afraid of fastfalling if I use down on the joystick ._. But if both of you bosses do it, it can't be that bad

 

[Geenareeno]

You should only be falling for 1 or 2 frames so you don't reach fast fall speed.

 

[tm]

Well yeah. I guess I mean to say I don't trust my ability to consistently press Y within 2 frames of down.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Realistically if you're not timing it well with down sweep to forward, it seems just as hard to go from either away position to forward, but really its all about what's comfortable.

As far as grabs, I always jump cancel to ensure that the game doesn't put me in sheild.

 

[tm]

I do that as well.

I'm curious: which direction do you guys input for the wavedash in ledgedash -> regrab? I believe you can do it anywhere from directly towards the edge to any angled downward.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

you believe correctly.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Just because I want to show how weird I am:

I let go of the ledge with the cstick (either right or down, depending on which side of the stage I'm on), and jump using the control stick, the move it towards the stage and press R.

Also, if you're in Ohio, you should go hang out with the Box of Danger crew. They're decent as Smash (I believe Chris played WGS at Zenith and beat him), and have a great TV show. I think they mostly play PM now, but any Ganon stuff you do in PM will help you with Melee.

EDIT: Guess what Ganon mains? We made it into the Olympics! http://kotaku.com/5930983/olympic-gymnast-uses-zelda-medley-during-performance

 

[-ACE-]

I do that as well.

I'm curious: which direction do you guys input for the wavedash in ledgedash -> regrab? I believe you can do it anywhere from directly towards the edge to any angled downward.

Like Ian said, you're right. I just wanted to add that if you fastfall immediately (as simple as letting go of the joystick for a few frames and snapping down) you will remain completely invincible (you get 30 frames of invincibility per ledge grab).

And to rehash your first question, if you are shielding a lot once you get on stage in your ledgedash attempts, you are either 1) losing a frame between ledgedrop and your double jump (you aren't hitting jump fast enough) or 2) hitting R/L a frame or 2 late.

my guess is the former, just keep those in mind as you practice. If you lose more than 2 frames (2 frames off from being frame perfect), to my knowledge, you SD.

 

[Geenareeno]

If you guys don't mind, can you look over this video and gimme a critique? I know it sucks watching noobs play, but I would really appreciate it (and I swear I've gotten a bit better since you last saw me!)

At least look over the first match cuz I suck vs. falco

here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBYBbLfIK18&feature=youtu.be

Okay.


0:05 - He did an aerial through your sheild, try to break the habit of grabbing as soon as an aerial hits your sheild. You could have rolled away (to the right) or tried to punish with bair oos.

0:22 - The number one rule about being flashy is that you NEVER MISS ANYTHING. You could have just done waveland > full hop > up air.

0:32 - It looked like you were going for d-tilt, which (in my opinion), is a pretty bad edgeguard option. I would have done down angled f-tilt. It comes out quick and rarely (if ever) clanks with phantasm.

0:45 - In general, it's a bad idea to try CCing Falco; it won't work.

1:04 - As you already noticed, when he rolled, all you did was roll. You could have done grab, fair, or maybe d-smash.

1:43 - Ah the art of grabbing Falco's dash attack... You have to do it really early or not at all. Dair out of sheild sometimes works.


1:51 - Some questionable neutral game. The sh fair was a bad idea. He was not close enough to get hit even if the did a running sh towards you. Then you roll away (presumably to dodge a laser, but now he's got even more space to work with) and then roll back in (causing you to be punished). Against Falco try to stay in a range where he can't do a shffl dair or nair on you, but if he lasers, you can punish. That's technically impossible, but it's what you want to go for. So essentailly, don't throw out moves for no reason, and don't roll if you aren't escaping sheild pressure.

2:33 - What the hell why did that work...



So yeah that's what I got.

 

[DippnDots]

lolol wrong tab

At 2:07~2:08, you should have just grabbed the edge, he could have caught you in the second jump with a short hop laser forward smash for a stock

So a few times you'd land and do a uair so you wouldnt have to tech, you can just wiggle the control stick left to right a bit so you land as if you had jumped.

As far as your like, comboing and tech chasing goes. I would play a game where you literally just try to knock falco off the edge and force him to recover. He's real easy to abuse when he's in that position and a lot of times it can be better than tacking on an extra 10-20%

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I accidentally deleted everything I typed. And I don't remember what it was. This happened last time I was typing something, too. Now I'm going to have to watch these videos again. So, expect comments tomorrow, because if I give you feedback while I'm mad at Google Chrome, it isn't going to be very useful.

Is there a way to stop backspace from sending me back a page?

EDIT: I just got an extension to do that! Awesome! Now that I'm in a better mood, I can remember some of what I wrote. Unfortunately, my wording won't be as eloquent or gallant or heroic as usual, but whatever. I've been spending all day playing Skyrim because having a laptop that can run it on Ultra is awesome. Oh, and I got a memory foam bed cover that's really uncomfortable and I can't sleep on, so I'm giving it back to the store. And I have a really big glass of cold water that I'm drinking right now.

So, thoughts from game 1, which I watched while listening to high-pitched girly anime music:

A lot of times you would Dair him (you did a good job hitting with Dair), but then immediately go for a grab or another Dair, miss, and get punished. I suggest using something that covers more options, like Dsmash, or waiting a bit and responding to what he does. Ganon has a few options fast enough for this, such as any of his aerials (except Dair, and sometimes Fair), or wavejab. You know, this paragraph had like three more sentences last time I wrote it. Stupid Chrome.

There were times when Falco would do a dash attack, you would shield it, and then he'd be behind you. This happened often, and you didn't seem to have any way of dealing with it. Try Bair OoS, WD or Wavejab OoS, or (I've been wanting to try this for a while, but never gotten a good chance to use it) reverse UpB OoS. I also wonder if you can reverse Usmash OoS, and if that would work. It could be pretty interesting.

I know I wrote another paragraph about Game 1, but I can't remember what it was. Oh well, wait until I rewatch the videos.

Oh, and here's something I forgot to mention last time: Learn to PS. Just sit down with a Lv9 Falco on FD, and practice PSing. After 20 minutes, you should be hitting about 20% of PSes. Take a break, and come back to it the next day. Do this for a few days, and PSing Falco's nature will become second nature. I'm PSing the majority of Lasers at this point. I think. I haven't practiced PSing in a couple weeks, because Undergraduate Research and all that. Speaking of that, I'm moving into my dorm in 8 days. Time to start my freshman year.

Game2, which I watched while listening to high-pitched non-girly anime music. I was halfway through this when I accidentally erased everything I wrote, so the second half of whatever I write should be better.

Do you have more experience with the Fox matchup? You seemed to do a better job taking advantage of Ganon's strengths and Fox's weaknesses. However, you left yourself open too often, allowing yourself to get hit, which is worse than it is against Fox. Oh, that's another thing I wrote last time. Falco can combo you really well (I feel like your opponent was pretty bad at this), so you really don't want to get hit by him, and you gave him too many openings. However, it's worse to get hit by Fox.

Cruel Angel's Thesis is a cool song.

You did a much better job using Fair this match (Hey, this is another thing I wrote about Game 1 last time that I forgot about! My memory must not be as bad as I thought it was).
Game 1: You did too many Fairs that weren't retreating. A non-retreating Fair gives characters like Fox, Falco, and Falcon an easy opportunity to land a hit on you, which is pretty bad as Ganon. Against those characters, your Fairs should either hit, or be retreating.
Game 2: Your Fairs almost all either hit, were retreating, or in once case you got a jab after it. Much better job on this. Although I also feel like he walked into more Fairs than he should have. It was like he was blindly running into them, and he didn't learn the entire match. Obvious it wouldn't work as well as it did if you hadn't done a good job with them, but I do feel like he messed up on this way too much. As a Ganon main, you can't afford to be like him. If you run into an attack once in a match, you need to learn from that and not do it ever again.

You missed an L-cancel on your stomp. I thought you were trying to become a flashy technical Ganon, but you missed one L-cancel? Well, Ganon mains can't afford to miss any L-cancels, especially not on stomp. You were really lucky not to get punished for it. In general, you should always be punished for stomp if you miss, whether or not it's L-canceled. If you aren't punished for it, your opponent is just bad, and you now have a reason to ridicule them for the rest of their lives.

And I think I now have everything Chrome deleted. Unfortunately, most of my awesome wording was deleted, so I don't sound as much like a genius as I usually do. It's too bad I don't like near the Outer Banks, and don't drive.

Try using jab as a shield more often.

There was one time when you were landing, and you could have hit him with the start of Uair. This auto-cancels, I believe. It's really useful, and we both need to use it more. You did use it later in the match, though.

Use downAngled Ftilt to edgeguard Fox's sideB. Same goes for Falco's. I don't believe Dtilt hits there.

I didn't see many RLD's. Aren't you engaged to them, or something? Did you have a break-up?

I don't think this Fox knew the matchup too well. He approached way too often, and didn't approach when he should have.

I'll probably have more advice when I re-watch the videos tomorrow, but until then, I'm going to sleep. And then play Skyrim.

Examples of the music I listened to while typing this and watching your video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgx21W59wB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kFhPVAhV_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga_aTC1MCY0 (This show had one of the coolest soundtracks ever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZQxpFFP2Pc

EDIT2: Wow, I wrote that much? Well, I did spend another 30 minutes editing this, but that involved getting a glass of water, reading the PM thread, checking my email, listening to music, pretending I was eating chocolate, and... Oh wait, that's it. Wow, my life is boring. Here are some bonus songs I feel like listening to as a celebration of writing all this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GLvBLO-blY
Man, there was another one I thought of, and forgot 10 seconds later, right when I was about to type it into the search bar. Why does my memory have to do this to me?
Got it! All I had to do was take a look at the 150 anime I've watched throughout my life. Thank you, StandardToaster, for convincing me to make an anime list.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52QQiBGNUI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO0xefp0uGA

 

[Dorsey]

I'll probably have more advice when I re-watch the videos tomorrow

Spare us please

We're gonna have some fun tomorrow psuedo!

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Dorsey, Pseudo, and Ace all in one room?

ohhhh man, so envious.

 

[G. Vice]

Dorsey, Pseudo, and Ace all in one room?

ohhhh man, so envious.

Prepare yourself to be destroyed Pseudo.

My boys ACE and Dorsey don't play no games...

 

[Dorsey]

Wish you could be here too Ian. If Chris were in town there would almost be too much ganon action going down(..if there ever was such a thing haha).

edit: ZANE!! hahaha... You need to be here too!

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Spare us please

We're gonna have some fun tomorrow psuedo!

Some of what I said had to be useful, right?

But I wrote way too much. I need to stick collapse tags on that post.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, who's going to be attending FC that I can watch on Stream?

Also, Melee got 146 entrants. PM got 100 entrants. Brawl got 4. That's going to be a really short tournament.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Raph, I just read all of that (don't ask why) and there was a lot of good stuff to take notice of.

Explanations:

I missed an L-cancel because I suck

You never want to RLD vs. falco because his lasers will snipe you out of it

As for not using RLD vs. fox... I have no excuse. But I recorded more matches and I got an RLD stomp on fox lol

Either way, thanks for taking a look, every little bit of advice helps. Even if my opponent is still in the 2005 metagame with luke's brother (yes, THAT luke)


Dorsey: Gonna be a blast, man! Keep in mind I'm driving like 5 hours so I'm expecting you and your brother to make it worth my while

Jk I know I'm gonna have a good time with you all.

 

[Geenareeno]

Psuedo did you see my post?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Psuedo did you see my post?

Yes, Geen I did. VERY helpful stuff in there, thanks a ton.

Especially about my neutral game actually, I have a very impatient play style in general, but that's especially weak against falco. Oh and about missing while being flashy: I thought that it would actually be quicker that way, by doing the waveland. I've seen G. Vice do it and I kind of stole it haha. But you're absolutely right, never sacrifice a hit for flash.

I also was going for a d-ftilt lol idk why i messed that one up. And You'd be surprised 2:33 works a lot more than you would think, but you have to pay attention to their teching patterns otherwise you're just guessing (ie don't just throw it out there blindly).

Forgot to mention: that advice about camping on the top platform vs. jiggs... wtf, it works. Lol it works pretty well actually. I played bieber last week and we went almost even for the most part. Thanks again!

 

[Ripple]

Ganondorf's a chump!