Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

My secondary is fine. I already have like four good characters, but that's not my concern right now. After this past tournament, I've concluded that I'm still pretty terrible and I really don't see how anyone loses to me atm lol

I just wonder when I'll get my first notable tournament win.

 

[spider_sense]

My secondary is fine. I already have like four good characters, but that's not my concern right now. After this past tournament, I've concluded that I'm still pretty terrible and I really don't see how anyone loses to me atm lol

I just wonder when I'll get my first notable tournament win.

Drop those 4 characters and commit to Ganon. Practice the tech skill that we went over and you'll do just fine. Remember what we also talked about if you need advice from me at anytime.

 

[Ripple]

Except don't drop DK. He's godly

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i guess since you're housing me that we'll be playing a lot of dk dittos.

 

[G. Vice]

i guess since you're housing me that we'll be playing a lot of dk dittos.

Why would you talk "ganon ganondorf ganonbros ganon is so awesome" in the boards then go to a tournament and use DK? I don't think you've ever mentioned that you even use DK. I'm very confused, but it's your call. I agree partially with Spidersense. If you intend to learn the finer points of all the matchups, you should play ganon to maximize the experience you get with him. Alternates are fine in friendlies here and there, and I guess if you aren't playing well with your main on a certain day alts are cool, but I can't help but notice that you constantly complain about not being able to improve, yet you play DK in tourney? Idk what to think about that.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

he's like the opposite of me. i complain about ganon/my ganon not being good enough, so i use everyone else in friendlies, but when **** hits the fan and i want wins, i go back to ganon lol.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Why would you talk "ganon ganondorf ganonbros ganon is so awesome" in the boards then go to a tournament and use DK? I don't think you've ever mentioned that you even use DK. I'm very confused, but it's your call. I agree partially with Spidersense. If you intend to learn the finer points of all the matchups, you should play ganon to maximize the experience you get with him. Alternates are fine in friendlies here and there, and I guess if you aren't playing well with your main on a certain day alts are cool, but I can't help but notice that you constantly complain about not being able to improve, yet you play DK in tourney? Idk what to think about that.

whoa wall of text directed at me.

i've been using dk in melee recently because he's my 64 main (i'm pretty big on 64), and decided he'd be fun to use while implicating some of the techniques used in 64. i figured i'd test that out this saturday at the small monthlies we have here

so i did that. but don't think i used just dk. i used ganondorf as well. i didn't take notes for DK. I took notes for ganondorf. i focused on ganondorf in teams as well, ended up taking a match from your boy spider sense and his falco teammate in the process, in tournament, using ganondorf.

so yeah, don't think anything has changed between me and ganondorf.

oh and chris, now that you mention it, i do something similar i suppose. i'll be using ganondorf specifically for the next few months to prepare for FC.

 

[G. Vice]

ended up taking a match from your boy spider sense and his falco teammate in the process.

so yeah, don't think anything has changed between me and ganondorf.

Who couldn't do that?

grats

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zqmhS0z0ic

need some pointers for this matchup.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Roy i got 3 tips/observations

1) rat is very patient but also quite adaptive; in this way he is quite similar to kels. He has no problem falling back to a safe spacing indefinitely and taking minimal risks, but if he notices a pattern he will act. I think you also are quite adaptive, maybe moreso, but I think he is more patient/defensive.

2) Rat is good at trapping you at the edge, but once he loses center stage his control drops to nearly nothing. In the first game, a lot of your success happened when you zoned him into the corner and then baited his approach to the center. To go along with this, whenever you took the top platform, he lost all control of the stage and retreated to the corner. You could abuse this by going to the top to force him into the corner then falling safely to the center of the stage (possibly landing with a fair/uair to cover).

3) You could do more with your edgeguarding. I think ganon has one of the best edgeguards on samus. Don't let him float to the stage so safely; pressure him as he is coming and always try to trade with him if nothing else. Your uair should beat or at least trade with anything he can do if he is above you. If he is horizontal or lower, you can use the eddie spike to hit him if he upbs or threaten to jump off the stage to hit him if he does his grapple. You have a lot of chances to play rock/paper/scissors heavily in your favor while he is recovering and I don't see you abuse it enough.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

My observations from that video:

You don't deal with missiles very well. It seemed, to me, like you would shield almost every time he shot a missile, especially when he was further away from you. He was able to take advantage of this to essentially have control over the entire stage.

As for solutions, unfortunately, I don't have experience with the matchup, so everything I say is going to be pure theory based off of those three games and the few games I've played vs Samus. I could be wrong, but I believe PSing the missiles would allow you to act more quickly after shielding them, making it easier for you to approach. Another option is to not approach as quickly. It'd be tough, you should be able to find a safe maneuver between his missiles. Or just get hit by a missile on purpose. You could always do that to help you get into a better position.

Once you get close, you have to always be prepared for a Missile or a Fair. A missile is going to hit you if you're directly horizontal from him, and Fair is just really fast (Hits on frame 4, I believe). You need to always be prepared for these, and play around them. While you'll miss out on hits because of this, he should miss out on more. Once he realizes you're playing around missile/Fair, he'll stop using them, and you can take advantage of that.

Nair and Ftilt also come out really fast. Keep that in mind for whenever you're in that space where he can't hit you with his other attacks, but can get you with those. If you can bait either of those out of him, you should be able to get a good punish.

Everything Sveet said seems pretty good.

Why did you pick PS for the third game? I feel like PS gives Samus too much room to missile, and taking away the top platform gives you less room to avoid them, and that seemed to show in games two and three.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

My observations from that video:

You don't deal with missiles very well. It seemed, to me, like you would shield almost every time he shot a missile, especially when he was further away from you. He was able to take advantage of this to essentially have control over the entire stage.

As for solutions, unfortunately, I don't have experience with the matchup, so everything I say is going to be pure theory based off of those three games and the few games I've played vs Samus. I could be wrong, but I believe PSing the missiles would allow you to act more quickly after shielding them, making it easier for you to approach. Another option is to not approach as quickly. It'd be tough, you should be able to find a safe maneuver between his missiles. Or just get hit by a missile on purpose. You could always do that to help you get into a better position.

Once you get close, you have to always be prepared for a Missile or a Fair. A missile is going to hit you if you're directly horizontal from him, and Fair is just really fast (Hits on frame 4, I believe). You need to always be prepared for these, and play around them. While you'll miss out on hits because of this, he should miss out on more. Once he realizes you're playing around missile/Fair, he'll stop using them, and you can take advantage of that.

Nair and Ftilt also come out really fast. Keep that in mind for whenever you're in that space where he can't hit you with his other attacks, but can get you with those. If you can bait either of those out of him, you should be able to get a good punish.

Everything Sveet said seems pretty good.

Why did you pick PS for the third game? I feel like PS gives Samus too much room to missile, and taking away the top platform gives you less room to avoid them, and that seemed to show in games two and three.

You are correct, I am/was terrible at dealing with missiles and projectiles in general as Ganon. However, the past couple weeks I've improved in that area. I like to jab cancel the missles and approach/fall back out of it. My edgegaurding on Samus is a serious concern so I will practice some of the things Sveet said then next time I play the matchup.

As for counterpicking stadium again, I have a slight ego/pride problem when it comes to this game, especially in tournament. If I feel that I should have won on a stage or that I should be able to beat someone with a certain character I will continue to bang my head against a wall so to speak until I either succede or get my *** kicked. Lol.... idk how to get over this weakness, for it is one that has followed me throughout all aspects of my life. Smash really is micro scenario of life in general >:/.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd9sH70YcHA

Here is the most recent vid of my fox vs ganon game from that same tournament. I'm a climber player who wouldn't really play this matchup in a major tournament, but I do take great pride in the development of my ganondorf and consider him a main (not merely a 2ndary) and one of the best ganons out there.

Some pointers in this matchup would be appreciated as well. I am very weak with edge gaurding still and roll way too much while im in shield, which is kinda strange because I'm used to wd OoS a lot as an Ic player.

Still would like some more comments on the samus matchup.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

You use Dair way too much against Fox. He's fast, so if your timing is slightly off, he's going to shield and punish you for it. Also, learn to CG him. You'll need the extra %.

And yeah, both edgeguarding and doing more stuff OoS are extremely important on Ganon. Make sure you put a lot of work into those.

I'd write more, but I got Tales of Vesperia yesterday, so I'm playing that at the moment.

 

[Linguini]

Hey psuedo and sveet, that sounds great actually. I just found out i'm going to be in the actual city the weekend of july 27th. I'd def be down to come out for a tourney and get away from the fam for a bit that saturday.

I wouldn't mind bodying kels again too

let me know!

 

[G. Vice]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zqmhS0z0ic

need some pointers for this matchup.

UAir. I mean you handled it pretty well in all but that one spot in the second match where you got overwhelmed by missiles. Also, you should keep in mind that you can always just jab missiles. I would hesistate to be in the air so much vs Samus, because that's kinda what she wants you to do. mobility in the air as ganon kinda blows, so you need to stay grounded and pressure her as much as possible, and destroy her shield. Which, you did pretty well.

I treat samus like she doesn't really have a shield-grab, since her grab is pretty much non-existent due to our jab/ftilt. Jabs really keep her on her toes. Just catch her with a fair/uair then you usually can follow up with another uair. No worries, Rat is a really solid samus, and you won afterall. Just jab the missiles and realize that they are pretty much just baits to try to steal your jump and get you in the air.

 

[Divinokage]

Well there's 2 patterns I noticed from watching the Fox vid once.

When you Dair, you seem to always follow up with jab at low %. Try to make your follow-ups better in general. Dair into grab is better and leads more to be able to continue your techchases. You could also do dair into nair/uair at low % but I prefer Nair because the knockback on it allows Ganon to follow up for another aerial if the opponent DIed it incorrectly. Or hell Dair into Dair is brutal also, I like to use that too.. after the 2nd dair you have an attempt to techchase again.. but you get 42% guaranteed right away which is kill % for most chars. haha.

2nd important pattern I noticed is that you use your double jump very often right after you get hit.. doing that is very risky as it can leave you open without a jump if you get hit. The only time DJing is good to use is when your opponent is far enough away where he cant hit you when you have used it. Like imagine you are close to the ledge and you get hit inside your DJ, you are ****ed.

I saw you do a lot of Fair into down B vs Samus for some reason and im not sure why you use it. Also don't do Fair to jab a lot, it's unsafe on shield and predictable especially these days. I think you can also space your fairs even better from what I've seen.. the way you did them seemed unsafe to me. So when you fair someone's shield mix it up. DD into bair, or you can bait a jump for example too or grab right away idk.. from that point you have to understand how pressured they are I guess. They will HAVE to do something out of shield from that position just look at where he is and what possible options that can come from oos.. depending on character of course too.

For now that's what I have.

 

[Little England]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd9sH70YcHA

Here is the most recent vid of my fox vs ganon game from that same tournament. I'm a climber player who wouldn't really play this matchup in a major tournament, but I do take great pride in the development of my ganondorf and consider him a main (not merely a 2ndary) and one of the best ganons out there.

Some pointers in this matchup would be appreciated as well. I am very weak with edge gaurding still and roll way too much while im in shield, which is kinda strange because I'm used to wd OoS a lot as an Ic player.

Still would like some more comments on the samus matchup.

Yo Trail is puttin in that work for FC!

vs Samus
-stage control is really important. just stay in the middle
-sometimes you can recover high just because she can't kill you in the air from the middle of the stage. even if she hits you off again you should be at a distance to recover.
-she has a small *** shield so delaying dairs is good
-when you get her off her feet just go on an uairing barrage.
-this vid -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4G0va5Ntw

vs Fox (I don't have much but...)
-CC his nair>grab is really good imo.
-short hop uair and dair also stop his approaches works pretty well.

Last point which I think works well vs Fox but would like to tell the whole thread...if you connect a dair on spacies at the edge of the stage, wouldn't it in most cases be better to eddie spike them down to set up for an easy edge guard? The go to thing seems to be to do a fair but I toyed with eddie spiking instead the other day and it worked well.

 

[spider_sense]

Kage you still wanna lose those $20?

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Kage you still wanna lose those $20?

i want your $20, ganon ditto best of 3

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I want $20 too. I'm not good enough to beat you guys in an MM, though, so can you just give me the money?

 

[Divinokage]

Kage you still wanna lose those $20?

Of course I do, but you dont stand no chance!

 

[spider_sense]

i want your $20, ganon ditto best of 3

Of course I do, but you dont stand no chance!

Thanks for paying for my gas for the week you two. I appreciate it.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Last point which I think works well vs Fox but would like to tell the whole thread...if you connect a dair on spacies at the edge of the stage, wouldn't it in most cases be better to eddie spike them down to set up for an easy edge guard? The go to thing seems to be to do a fair but I toyed with eddie spiking instead the other day and it worked well.

If you can land it, dair to wf spike is super legit. It is dependent on di and percent, but it is actually a true combo. But I should definitely try the eddie spike afterwards, that sounds like an interesting follow up. We need to play again, by the way! hopefully this time I will be able to take a stock or two off you hahaha.

Linguini: dude, I hate to say this, but im going out of town on the 28th til I think august 5th or so. And I have to play you because you helped ****ing invent the character that I play. And you beat kels, which I know first hand is impossible. The last crew battle we had, he took like 16 stocks or something lolol. Would you be able to smash on a different day, possibly?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

What's an eddie spike?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the tip of a reverse uair. Wrongly named a tipman

 

[G. Vice]

Thanks for paying for my gas for the week you two. I appreciate it.

Don't count on banking on everyone. You'll still lose a little to me, remember?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I'll $3 MM one of you lol. After playing with trail for a couple months (whose best matchup is ganon), I have confidence that I may give one of you a tough set come this august. Anyone?

 

[G. Vice]

I'll $3 MM one of you lol. After playing with trail for a couple months (whose best matchup is ganon), I have confidence that I may give one of you a tough set come this august. Anyone?

Sure why not.

I enjoyed my set with Trail, but he didn't ditto me. He went ICs vs me.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Sure why not.

I enjoyed my set with Trail, but he didn't ditto me. He went ICs vs me.

How did your set turn out? Trail is a lot of fun to play against, but he always bodies me with his ICs lol. He has been consistently beating me with Ganon as well, but as I learn the matchup and his play style, the matches are slowly becoming more even. Still a ways to go tho which is why I really hope I can do something spectacular come august haha.

 

[G. Vice]

How did your set turn out? Trail is a lot of fun to play against, but he always bodies me with his ICs lol. He has been consistently beating me with Ganon as well, but as I learn the matchup and his play style, the matches are slowly becoming more even. Still a ways to go tho which is why I really hope I can do something spectacular come august haha.

We only played one set, but I actually won the 3 matches we played. I had to face him in teams as well, with IHSB and we also won that pools match 2-0. He's mad good though, but I am actually pretty decent vs ICs.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

We only played one set, but I actually won the 3 matches we played. I had to face him in teams as well, with IHSB and we also won that pools match 2-0. He's mad good though, but I am actually pretty decent vs ICs.

This all leads me to believe that I will be giving up my $3 to you. But you never know, he and I have extremely different play styles. He is very fast and not as technical. I'm a little slower (working on it though) and my play style is a little more similar to yours, a little more technical and lots and lots of wavelands.

EDIT: while I got you on the boards, G. Vice, do you have any pointers/tips/anything to say about a ganon samus team? I know you always team with spaceballs and Ripple said he might go samus for FC. Just thought I'd ask.

EDIT 2: Roy, I just watched your set vs. Rat. I noticed two things that you could be doing a little better. Your edge guarding was not bad, but after samus uses her grapple thing and fails, that edge guard is free, just learn how to Eddie/Tipman spike and that's the stock. Also, what I find works decently is a double stomp. Attempt a stomp and then samus will air dodge and shoot the grapple. As soon as you can, double jump and stomp again. I've never done this, but I've seen it done before by RockCrock (I think). One last thing you should know: when Samus is missile spamming, you can side-b near her and the side-b will go through the missiles and hit her. It won't just clank, the missile will be destroyed and samus will get hit too. I feel like that's a good way to deal with the missiles up close.

 

[Ripple]

You guys should give advice against DK for pseudo.

My DK isn't good anymore joe, you just don't know the MU

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

We only played one set, but I actually won the 3 matches we played. I had to face him in teams as well, with IHSB and we also won that pools match 2-0. He's mad good though, but I am actually pretty decent vs ICs.

ya i <3 ganon dittos, i think i was just warming up the lil ones for my bracket matches

also, if i had a good teammate i'd of bodied u kids in teams, my ganon was tearing **** up.

btw, my best matchup is ganon dittos pseudo, im pretty mediocre at ic/ganon, i think u still need to just learn the matchup.

 

[Linguini]

That is incorrect.

Eddie did in fact pioneer using the reverse uair with ganon, but tipman took it to the next level and utilized it most effectively as a **** spike.

Know your ganon history youngins'

 

[PseudoTurtle]

You guys should give advice against DK for pseudo.

My DK isn't good anymore joe, you just don't know the MU

I think I just need to keep playing the game. You can beat me with every character lol, at that point it isn't MU experience, I think it's just me starting the game a few months ago and you playing since '05. No johns, of course.

btw, my best matchup is ganon dittos pseudo, im pretty mediocre at ic/ganon, i think u still need to just learn the matchup.

Yea, I guess. I am learning more about it tho. Like uair>fair.

 

[G. Vice]

ya i <3 ganon dittos, i think i was just warming up the lil ones for my bracket matches

also, if i had a good teammate i'd of bodied u kids in teams, my ganon was tearing **** up.

btw, my best matchup is ganon dittos pseudo, im pretty mediocre at ic/ganon, i think u still need to just learn the matchup.

Lol, I will admit my teammate was a little better at that tournament

And yeah, we played a total friendly set right before things started, so that's why I never thought too much about it. But we should ditto for sure, especially since you're really good at them. I'd be interested to see how it turns out bro. We can MM if you want.

 

[Divinokage]

Ahh so cute seeing everyone fight amongst themselves. =)

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Lol, I will admit my teammate was a little better at that tournament

And yeah, we played a total friendly set right before things started, so that's why I never thought too much about it. But we should ditto for sure, especially since you're really good at them. I'd be interested to see how it turns out bro. We can MM if you want.

its gotta be a money match, however if I lose I lose it won't count due to some yet to be determined johnz

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

That is incorrect.

Eddie did in fact pioneer using the reverse uair with ganon, but tipman took it to the next level and utilized it most effectively as a **** spike.

Know your ganon history youngins'

Still the Eddie Spike, take it up with the Howells if u got beef.