Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Divinokage]

^ Also space downtilts, pretty important in this matchup

 

[PseudoTurtle]

immediate uair is pretty much my go to move in the matchup, but CCing for me is not an option because I always just end up getting grabbed or spaced out well enough that I can't react with anything. Frustrating.

Dtilt is good too I guess. Are there any secrets to grabbing Marth? I know if I could just get a grab in, that might be the stock, but it seems so difficult. The only time I do it is when Ripple counters.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

sorry to interrupt, but i think we should talk about stages and matchups.

kage, you've been in the scene a while. what do you think about FC's stagelist, especially with the 3 bans? does the idea of someone banning 3 neutrals scare you as much as it scares me? and what stages do you think we should CERTAINLY get rid of in that stagelist?

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

perfect waveland (short-hop not double jump since it is less expecting) to grab is always a great option. quick and unexpecting.

 

[Divinokage]

sorry to interrupt, but i think we should talk about stages and matchups.

kage, you've been in the scene a while. what do you think about FC's stagelist, especially with the 3 bans? does the idea of someone banning 3 neutrals scare you as much as it scares me? and what stages do you think we should CERTAINLY get rid of in that stagelist?

Japes, Mute City for sure I would remove especially vs Peach/spacies. Cruise could be a toss up depending on the matchup umm.. Well people will likely to remove Brinstar so you will have an extra neutral for you almost all the time and if they don't well... they'll get owned on that stage.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

perfect waveland (short-hop not double jump since it is less expecting) to grab is always a great option. quick and unexpecting.

Yea that actually works pretty well, now that you mention it. I usually don't grab (although I definitely should), I almost always just jab, which I guess can sometimes lead into a grab.

Btw, Bizz, I played your buddy little england about a month ago. Did you teach that dude how to play? He completely wrecked me haha.

Also, to Chris: I would also like to know about that stage stuff. I don't know whether I like the added old school stages or dislike them. Cuz like you said, if yoshis, battlefield and dreamland all get banned, I would not be happy. Are there any other good ganon stages to choose from at this point? I know brinstar is usually a strong choice.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

From my experience, Brinstar feels like a neutral for Ganon. It's only noticeably in his favor when playing a Fast Faller.

For example, at my first tournament, after getting completely destroyed by Lightsyde's Falco, I CPed Brinstar and got his Falcon down to 1 stock. Obviously Falcon isn't his main character, and he probably wasn't trying that hard, but it still shows how good Brinstar can be in that matchup, given how terrible I was at the time.

 

[Divinokage]

Brinstar is pretty damn good vs all characters except Peach and Sheik I'd say. Oh ya Jiggs is equally hard there too. Marth gets absolutely demolished on CP stages lol.

 

[Ripple]

I challenge kage to a CP only battle!

 

[Divinokage]

Alright then, have fun hehe. =)

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Yea that actually works pretty well, now that you mention it. I usually don't grab (although I definitely should), I almost always just jab, which I guess can sometimes lead into a grab.

Btw, Bizz, I played your buddy little england about a month ago. Did you teach that dude how to play? He completely wrecked me haha.

Also, to Chris: I would also like to know about that stage stuff. I don't know whether I like the added old school stages or dislike them. Cuz like you said, if yoshis, battlefield and dreamland all get banned, I would not be happy. Are there any other good ganon stages to choose from at this point? I know brinstar is usually a strong choice.

i rarely play with him but his desire to beat me made him better in the match up. so-cal is getting that ganon experience, watch out guys.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

oh yeah, I've been thinking about the up-tilt as a legitimate edge-guard. i think the rarity of the move's usage will surprise your opponents enough to make them mess up their recovery.

 

[Renth]

oh yeah, I've been thinking about the up-tilt as a legitimate edge-guard. i think the rarity of the move's usage will surprise your opponents enough to make them mess up their recovery.

Linguini used it often vs. sheiks.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea, I think you can legitimately use it against ganon, falcon, and sheik. I've never tried it tho, so I'm not sure of how useful it would actually be.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

for that exact same purpose?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

The only problem is if it surprises them, but they're still able to cope with it. If they react, and hit you because of it (especially a Fair on Ganon, Falcon, or Sheik), you're going to be in a lot more trouble than if you'd used a different edgeguard.

If it works, though, it'll KO a lot sooner than any other edgeguard. So, if you think it'll hit, and you're good enough for it to work (i.e. I couldn't do it, but Bizz probably could) I'd see if being a legit edgeguard.

 

[Divinokage]

Well I don't think this would work against top players at all, I sincerely hope their reaction time is good enough at that point.. cmon. lol.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Certainly gives them something to pay attention to. Funniest thing to do would be to get falcons and ganons up bing thewrong way right when u start the utilt. The instant fear could get them to switch directions on those frames, and that'd be funny to see.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

so pros wouldn't accidentally up-b the other way when they're surprised to see the up-tilt

 

[-ACE-]

Pros can get hit by it too lol. Its all in the timing.

 

[Geenareeno]

Kage it will work on the best player in the world if they have 0 options. If they're far enough and not Marth who can change how fast he falls then you just have to time it right and either they get hit or don't grab the ledge and die.

 

[Superspright]

At a certain range if you time the utilt to firefox you can destroy it. But they have to be going for a sweetspot for it to work...

Of course dair (edgecanceled) pivot uptilt is gross, and technically is guaranteed on the spacies are certain percents. Too bad it's impossible to land (almost).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox would have to be really smart or really dumb to fall for those

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Screw the rules, I have green hair.

And you have green text.

Together, we can make any Fox fall for that.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

up tilt is too good. even better in brawl, too.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYsIhYjIAg8&feature=plcp

critiques other than my rustiness?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYsIhYjIAg8&feature=plcp

critiques other than my rustiness?

I feel like you were a little too aggressive on some of your edge guards. Like you over committed and Zhu got back safely because of it. Other than that, ask Linguini lol.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I feel like he wasn't aggressive enough. He just accidentally committed to the wrong thing because of rustiness. I could be wrong, but it was fairly obvious what to commit to, and looked like he just forgot to jump, didn't remember the exact timing for an attack, or something along those lines.

It is difficult to work out what happened because of rustiness and what happened because of you. I think you probably would have won if you hadn't been rusty, based on how close those games were.

One major thing I think you should work on is shielding. Obvious shielding is good. However, when Falco gets right up next to you and your in shield, he's just going to keep beating you up until your shield breaks, or you let him hit you. As Ganondorf, there really isn't anything else you can do there (unless he makes a mistake). You let him get you into this situation too often for me to say it was just because of rustiness. Try to work out when he'll come near you, and retreat. It'll give him extra space, but if he commits to attacking your shield, you've just gotten a free hit (especially if you so a short WD OoS and jab).

Other more experienced players can probably give you better advice, though. I'll watch the video again later today/tomorrow.

Also, what was your logic behind choosing FD for G2? I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing (vs Falco I'd cp Battlefield, but go to either YS or FD if that was banned, depending on the Falco's playstyle), but I'm curious as to why you did it.

 

[spider_sense]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYsIhYjIAg8&feature=plcp

critiques other than my rustiness?

Bizzarro Y U NO UAIR MOAR!???? Also at higher percents, downthrow to down b works on spacies.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I'm top four in Swiss at advent with hbox, plup, and gahtzu. #Ganondorf ;o

 

[Bl@ckChris]

quality isn't great, but here's a set from the tournament where i lost WF and GF against sneak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J5mCc0IFk8&feature=youtu.be

the video says gf, but i think this is wf.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I can't tell if that Falco is too gay or not gay enough...

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i know. he plays somewhere in the middle, and it makes it a pain to fight.

this is grand finals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r1FWuVL4Xk

my sheik is in the middle of that vid. you can choose to laugh at it, or skip it, or even talk about it if you guys care lol.

 

[Divinokage]

I'm top four in Swiss at advent with hbox, plup, and gahtzu. #Ganondorf ;o

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f....225067457134.134087.537802134&type=1&theater

Are you trying to lie about your placings? Wtf dude.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

cant see the link, but swiss might've played out differently than the bracket, if they were doing it as a seeding tool. i doubt he'd lie about it.

edit: going to the results thread, he didn't lie about the swiss. i do wonder how the bracket played out though. must've been interesting.

 

[Divinokage]

Oh it was on Hbox's wall, so there was brackets and swiss?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i guess. i just went here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14452103#post14452103 it's the advent results thread. they don't have the actual singles results up yet so idk what happened there.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Yep. I scrubbed out in bracket. Should have made 5th for sure. Maybe even 4th. I 3 stocked him game one on bf. Suicided twice in my second and third matches combined against this falco guy. I NEVER **** up my wavelands from the ledge. So mad still.

Guess it's time to practice tech skill or some bull****. I'm so bad on stadium. Help me, guys. ):

Oh and thanks for stickin up for me Chris lol

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

I feel like he wasn't aggressive enough. He just accidentally committed to the wrong thing because of rustiness. I could be wrong, but it was fairly obvious what to commit to, and looked like he just forgot to jump, didn't remember the exact timing for an attack, or something along those lines.

It is difficult to work out what happened because of rustiness and what happened because of you. I think you probably would have won if you hadn't been rusty, based on how close those games were.

One major thing I think you should work on is shielding. Obvious shielding is good. However, when Falco gets right up next to you and your in shield, he's just going to keep beating you up until your shield breaks, or you let him hit you. As Ganondorf, there really isn't anything else you can do there (unless he makes a mistake). You let him get you into this situation too often for me to say it was just because of rustiness. Try to work out when he'll come near you, and retreat. It'll give him extra space, but if he commits to attacking your shield, you've just gotten a free hit (especially if you so a short WD OoS and jab).

Other more experienced players can probably give you better advice, though. I'll watch the video again later today/tomorrow.

Also, what was your logic behind choosing FD for G2? I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing (vs Falco I'd cp Battlefield, but go to either YS or FD if that was banned, depending on the Falco's playstyle), but I'm curious as to why you did it.

thanks for the thoughts. I chose FD because I am able to do my 0-death n-air combos much easier on this stage.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Nair combos seem like a pretty good reason to go to FD.

I've been doing some Falco studying (specifically, watching Chris v Sneak, Bizz v Zhu, Linguini v Kevbo, and Kage v ThatGuy). This is how I feel about the matchup, and I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.

Falco moves faster than Ganon, and combos really well. The standard would be to try and bait an approach using moves such as a retreating Fair, then punish. Unfortunately, this often doesn't work against Falco, because he has lasers. This means you'll have to either dodge these lasers until he chooses to approach, or approach through the lasers. Either way, you want to try to get to the ideal Ganon range, which is around the edge of Ganon's Bair. At this range, you can apply pressure with a combination of Uairs, Nairs, Bairs, Jabs, and Grabs. Keep the pressure going, and space with Ftilt when necessary. SideB makes for a very good mixup when applying pressure. Dair makes for a very good punish, as it either results in the fight going back to ground level, or him going up high enough that you either KO or get another hit. Fair is also a good punish, but is used mostly for KOs. downB is similar to the Fair in this, but won't work until higher percentages, and you can't use it while you're in the air. The mixup is good, though. Shielding seems very bad vs. Falco. He's going to keep pressuring you with a combination of shines and aerials, and while you can Jab/Grab Falco during this, I don't think you should be able to if the Falco is being good at his job. Shielding can be used well, unlike the Falcon matchup (where I don't believe it should ever be used), but you need to be very careful not to let him pressure you. When applying pressure, I think you want to use the very tip of his Bair/Uair/Nair hitboxes. This keeps him away, but in a good distance, and keeps you out of shine range. If he gets too close, which happens often, a Jab/Grab is a good way to move him back into your ideal range, and combo.

I have to go now. If there's anything else I worked out, I'll add it later.

EDIT: So, in my rush, I missed out a bunch of stuff about the neutral game. I might add that tonight. Also,

Shield DI'ing away from Falco's pressure then grabbing is OP. Ask the Ganon thread for a .gif on it.