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How to win with Pit...Seriously.

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kupo15

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Im not judging your tech skill, Im saying if you find the ATs useless and easily punishable, then you dont know how to apply them.

You believe that there are better options in all situations than wingdashing but you have yet to actually prove your point with examples. Like, show me somewhere in one of my vids where wingdashing worked and tell me why I should have not used and what I should have used instead.


I can multi-shine with Fox and SHDL>JC shine with Fox in Melee, but that doesn't necessarily means that I should use them as much as possible when there are more options at my disposal. The same concept can be applied with Wingdashing, Renewal, Art and Arrow looping.
Yes it can which is why you dont use wingdashing, renewal, ART, and Arrow looping as much as possible. I already said this but you never responded to it.

I am surprised that you actually responded to me. It only took you a couple of pages.
 
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Im not judging your tech skill, Im saying if you find the ATs useless and easily punishable, then you dont know how to apply them.

You believe that there are better options in all situations than wingdashing but you have yet to actually prove your point with examples. Like, show me somewhere in one of my vids where wingdashing worked and tell me why I should have not used and what I should have used instead.




Yes it can which is why you dont use wingdashing, renewal, ART, and Arrow looping as much as possible. I already said this but you never responded to it.

I am surprised that you actually responded to me. It only took you a couple of pages.
The late response was to me not being around the Pit boards at the moment. But that's a different story.

I'm really not knocking the techniques being used, it's how much emphasis is being put into these techniques. Many of the Pit's I play simply use the techs whenever they feel it's necessary. Sure, it's good that I can ply a player that can use them correctly, but that can also injure you in terms of predictabilty. I think that players on these boards can acknowledge the basics just as much as the AT's, but everyone is getting sucked into them.

All and all, what I really want to say is, don't get too deep into AT's until you feel that your character is comfortable and can function without them, otherwise, you'll just fall short.
 

kupo15

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FINALLY!! That is what I have been waiting to hear. At least we are getting somewhat closer to the same page! So you do feel it has uses because up to this point you have been saying how useless it is and that there is a "better option" always. And now you are saying its nice to see a Pit who can use them correctly and not to get too deep without the fundamentals. Basically your saying that they do have uses with a solid grasp on the basics. I am confused atm.

About the Pits you play who focus on the techs. Idk who they are but its not our fault if they chose to ignore the basics even if we do have threads telling ppl how to use his basics. (yes we do have said threads that you say we should have. Idk how much research you did before making these really general statements)

You have not responded to the threads I referred to about the info on the basics nor did you reply about the proposal about this thread possibly going in the Ultimate guide.

Playing with just the basics can get predictable also. If you have no tricks up your sleeve and stay with the basic moveset, you can be punished with limiting yourself to the options that are available at the surface level which is why the ATs work. They are tricks that provide more variety and a sense of unpredictably.

I mean, I admit that most of my early vids showed me using the ATs too much, but if you saw how I play now, its much better. I do a lot of the basics BUT I do use the ATs to mix things up and I hardly get punished and it works. The key thing is that I experimented with them to find out how to use them correctly. It took me some time to exhaust the options of when to use what. Maybe your pit friends are on the same path. When trying new things, you take a step back to move two steps forward. And those steps forward can take a while.

I have a solid grasp of Pits fundamentals and how each move works which is why I am arguing that these ATs have uses. I cannot see myself playing pit without the ATs. I know they work and because I know how to use them, I feel that I am more flexible in more situations. Of course, when I play against noobs, I know that they are not needed so I dont really use them unless I want to show off. But at higher levels of play, the situations for these ATs are more prominent.

EDIT: Please dont get side tracked with the next two posts. Just ignore them. I think we are making progress ^_^
 

Admiral Pit

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Is your argument over yet? It pains me to see 2 of my friends fight each other.
 

kown

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oh and ive created the zoning topic which went pretty well.
wingdashing is useful and ur too dumb not to use it- wise words from kown

whats the next thread?
 

Ray_Kalm

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This is very true.

I've tried my best of Admiral yesterday, was able to get him to a stock. That's when he used more advanced techs, like Wing cancels and DACS, which made it surprisingly hard for me to balance my Link, without one dodge and one sidestep after another.
 

HolyCrusader

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I agree with Phoenix to some extent. Pit's AT's, if spammed, make them useless, predictable and easily punishable. Master the fundamentals and zoning as well(spacing, or whatever). When I use my Pit I loop the arrows when the time is right, not every single arrow that I shoot. I wingdash when I see an opportunity for a combo usually if an opponent miscalculates the range in a smash then I will use it to cover the small amount of distance for a D-tilt or Fsmash. Arrow Raining is completely useless and takes way too long to be rewarded. Wing Renewal gives you a fast rate at which you can prevent your opponent from even getting anywhere near the edge. When I play Pit I focus more on his weakness which we all know is his zoning. His AT's, which are useful in some situations, are not necessarily reliable and don't really give you an edge over your opponent. As Phoenix says, I think Pits should make fundamentals priority and AT's secondary. :)
 

kupo15

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Im sorry HolyCrusader but you havent really said anything new. Its not that we disagree because we do agree and have been full heartedly. Its just that a lot of ppl chose to ignore it no matter how much we say it. It appears this problem is affecting only the noob audience and everyone knows who has the biggest noob pop. here.

Trust me when I say this problem doesnt exist with Pits at the high level. They got high because of good basics, not ATs. This is why I made an offer of including this thread in the ultimate guide if the OP changes the target audience to the beginner Pits. But thus far, that offer has been ignore by him not responding.

^_^
 

Doctor X

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In this topic Emblem Lord fails.

Seriously, these are the people that are talking about Pit in the back room. Ridiculous. -.-

Wing dashes are incredibly useful. You have to know how to apply them, something I've made a heck of a lot of progress on recently to very great results. Ask anybody from the Midwest who played me this past weekend, besides maybe Overswarm since, like Emblem Lord and others in the BR, he's more interested in being viewed as right than knowing the truth when it comes to this.

Say you put somebody above you and you want to keep underneath them. You dash to keep up with them and they change up their DI. How do you cancel your dash and double back with no lag, now that dash cancels have been removed and dash dances drastically shortened?

Say you're playing against a G&W who's spamming aerials and smashes. If you shield, he either pushes you away, pokes through, or DI's away on the last hitbox so you can't punish him. You could risk powershielding, or... you could push him back to cause a whiff, move forward slightly, and punish from there.

Say you've got somebody on the edge of a platform above you and you've not had much success with the usual sh'd aerials against them. Maybe they're Marth and insist on up-Bing out of your multi-hits or maybe they're just playing especially defensively. Whatever the case, you have a potential option of pushing them off the platform into a tumble, creating an easy opportunity for a tech chase.

Say you're playing against a Rob, Peach, or Diddy that spams glide-toss approaches. They throw their projectile and approach you. If you shield it or dodge, they punish. If you run away or attack, you get hit. Mirror shield isn't quite quick enough and has punishable lag, same with angel ring. If you try to jump over it, you can't punish them and you might be opening yourself up from below. Wouldn't it be cool if you could, without jumping or lagging, auto-catch their projectile and evade their attack simultaneously?

Well... I know a great solution in all of these situations and more, and for some reason we've got people here telling me I should ignore it entirely... like doing so will have any effect whatsoever on the rest of my game. Honestly... I know the basics. I've beaten some of the better players in the Midwest before-- Kel, Sliq, Lain, Anther, Blood Hawk, and Quivo included-- and my tournament placings are improving all the time. I see no reason why I shouldn't continue to experiment just because some jerks who never tried any of the AT's they're talking about think they know better than I do. -.-

I still remember when the wavedash was discovered in Melee. People were saying the same **** things... that it was useless and a waste of time and that people should just stick to basics... Honestly, why should you just "stick to basics" when you could have both the basics and the "advanced" stuff? It's just silly.

You tell me wingdashing sucks, I'll tell you that you don't know what you're talking about, and I'm willing to take money-matches to prove it. Somebody needs to stand up for the truth here.
 

kown

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@DR.X- nice post.

Incredible. People are still getting butt hurt over this thread.

It's advice, take it or leave it. That's it. Internet is too serious mang. =D
LOL.....do you know what a forum is? its meant to discuss IMO
and you seem to think ppl are mad cuz they post......doesnt make much sense
 
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@DR.X- nice post.



LOL.....do you know what a forum is? its meant to discuss IMO
and you seem to think ppl are mad cuz they post......doesnt make much sense
I don't care if they post. I'm not even serious about this thing right now. And in the end I still stand by my opinions without caring. Internet is sooooooooooo cereal...

Also, speaking of not making sense, how can you say that a forum is too discuss in your opinion when it's a fact. Forums are made to discuss. That's a fact, not an opinion lol. *Poking*

=D
 

Doctor X

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"Serious business" is one of the most transparent cop-outs on the internet. You make fun of the other guy for taking your argument seriously. What the **** is that?

So sorry for thinking you actually mean the things that you say. Should we just assume you're spitting nonsense by default? >.<
 

kupo15

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Great post Doc

Forums are made to discuss. That's a fact, not an opinion lol. *Poking*

=D
But the fact of the matter is, there isnt any discussion going on. Its us trying to discuss with you and you just saying your word is law.

"Serious business" is one of the most transparent cop-outs on the internet. You make fun of the other guy for taking your argument seriously. What the **** is that?

So sorry for thinking you actually mean the things that you say. Should we just assume you're spitting nonsense by default? >.<
I agree 100%
 
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^^^ Proving my point.

I would like you to point out where I said "I'm right, you're wrong get use to it". I'm fairly certain that I was simply giving advice, it's up to you whether or not to take it. Simply because I have a different opinion doesn't mean I constantly say my word is absolute.

I'm not trying to make fun of anyone, i'm in a good mood, and debating over the internet can only stimulate ones drive for so long. That's the reason I really don't care, I gave advice, and it's up to you or whoever to implement it if they feel that they should.

You guys are really acting like wet blankets. I'm just poking a little fun, and it should be obvious that i'm doing so...shouldn't it?
 

Emblem Lord

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So, wait...EPF makes the thread and I fail just because I agree with it.

Ok, cool just checking.

But no seriously, I think alot of his AT's are simply overrated and can't replace the importance of his fundamentals. His AT's just aren't on the level of say Diddy's Banana game.

Still Doc..way to be moron and assume to know something about me.

I post because ultimately my goal is to share knowledge among the community and help it grow.

I don't give a **** about being viewed as right. What I care about..the only thing I have EVER cared about...something you would know if you ever read any one of the many threads I made...is spreading knowledge and helping the growth of the community.

I felt like the Pit community's growth was somewhat misguided. So I posted in this thread to share my thoughts.

Do I feel like some of the AT's are useless? Yes. BUT...if the Pit boards as a whole were to put more emphasis on learning things in the right order and then moving onto experimenting with AT's then I would have no problem, because at least they are making sure that new players understand the right path to learning Pit. And if the AT's are working for you and you already have a solid handle on what Pit can do then more power to you.
 

Undrdog

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I agree that quite a few of the techniques Pit has are situational to the extent they could be considered useless. I also agree that the fundamentals of both Pit and the game itself must come first.

But even with that said I must say I'm very disappointed in Emblem's way of explaining his point. Many of these ATs are not pointless. I admit I get more pleasure out of pulling off fancy tricks then I do winning at this point. With Pit you can develop your own style and if you're a smart player, you can still win playing the way you like. But even from a tourney viewpoint I can't imagine not incorporating arrow looping, slidestepping, ect...

As for naming things: I wasn't aware naming something made it an AT... Just makes sense to give something a name if you're going to need talk about it in the future.
 

QUIVO

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Pit's ATs are situational.

Only a few times has wingdash/wing shove effected with my spacing. Occasionally it'll mess with the projectiles, but not enough to make it noticeable.

Also, the AT where you go off the ledge with his up b and attack + get all your jumps back rarely ever hit me.

Looped arrows maybe hit me a few times ever, but never really swayed the battle into Pit's side. Thus, not very useful.

Of course this is from just playing Kown and Dr X.
 

Inui

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Ignore Pit's AT's. None are gamebreaking or do anything to make him better.

They are distractions.

Pit's would place better in tourney if they spent less time ******* around with AT's and more time coming up with option select scenario's, responses to shield pressure, knowing their spacing, maintaining momentum, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is...Pit mains should concentrate on the **** that wins tournaments.
QFT

Which is why I can place high with Pit. :)
 

Undrdog

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There aren't even any decent Pits out there though. I've only seen about four I consider to be any good. I'm just not sure where people are coming from when it's pretty certain they haven't played any good Pits. Even the ones who say they have and start naming names confuse me.

I'm not saying anyone in this thread is inexperienced in the matter, but I personally know from playing Pit what he's capable of and what his strengths and weaknesses are. Most of what has been said from both sides are very misleading and would easily draw a new player astray.
 

Admiral Pit

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You can't blame me for using something that I love so much (Arrow Rain) which was considered Completely Useless, until I came around. It helped me break hold of grabs by surprise, reach ledgestallers without actually getting in close to a trap, like MK's typical Up-B one.

After our battles EPF, you made me think about why I lost some of the matches in the Pit dittos, and the Marth, which you know I hate so much. I suppose I use something that you dont like, but I dont overuse em, but then, me being too aggressive is another story.

They might say the wrong thing Sometimes, but they have made a point, again, my matches with EPF.
Give them a chance. Please do it... for me, and stop this argument!
 
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You can't blame me for using something that I love so much (Arrow Rain) which was considered Completely Useless, until I came around. It helped me break hold of grabs by surprise, reach ledgestallers without actually getting in close to a trap, like MK's typical Up-B one.

After our battles EPF, you made me think about why I lost some of the matches in the Pit dittos, and the Marth, which you know I hate so much. I suppose I use something that you dont like, but I dont overuse em, but then, me being too aggressive is another story.

They might say the wrong thing Sometimes, but they have made a point, again, my matches with EPF.
Give them a chance. Please do it... for me, and stop this argument!
*sigh*

I guess it wouldn't hurt. But I really don't feel comfortable using those things.

And I really wasn't trying to start a debate or an argument really, it just evolved into that eventually.

-_-
 

~ Gheb ~

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Why is this thread still open? We already begun to deal with Pits weaknesses. At the moment, we're discussing his range problem and I'm sure stuff like landing KOs will be covered, once we're done with that. There really is no need to discuss any further in a topic, that's just full of flame wars
 

Admiral Pit

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*sigh*

I guess it wouldn't hurt. But I really don't feel comfortable using those things.

And I really wasn't trying to start a debate or an argument really, it just evolved into that eventually.

-_-
I was actually talking about the other Pits to at least give your way a chance, but both sides trying the other side's suggestions for a bit doesnt hurt either. I, myself, will try to lower my "Tactical" Arrow use, but it will be hard since Undr came back with a new Pit vid with a ton of Arrow Loops. After all, he inspired me to start Arrow Looping in the first place back then.
 

Undrdog

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I would like to reiterate that I play mostly to make my opponent look foolish and therefore for amusement purposes. ^_^
 

Admiral Pit

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And that's one of the reasons why I love ur vids, and it actually got me to arrow looping, too.
 

kupo15

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Sorry, didnt mean for this to be long

^^^ Proving my point.

I would like you to point out where I said "I'm right, you're wrong get use to it". I'm fairly certain that I was simply giving advice, it's up to you whether or not to take it. Simply because I have a different opinion doesn't mean I constantly say my word is absolute.

I'm just poking a little fun, and it should be obvious that i'm doing so...shouldn't it?
The reason why I said that you make it seem like your opinions are law is due to you not responding to and/or discussing my points which I feel were great points.

Telling the whole community that there ATs are trash does not come across as "fun." Ppl are naturally going to get defensive especially when one of those ppl (me) came up with a few of them.

You can't blame me for using something that I love so much (Arrow Rain) which was considered Completely Useless, until I came around. It helped me break hold of grabs by surprise,
sorry but you still havent convinced me with the arrow rain. I only attempt it when I play noobs and want to impress them.

I can't understand why me and Emblem Lord are targeted when threads like this exist.

-_-
Forget about the thread but you are targeted obviously because you started this thread and said that our ATs are trash. If you were to word your posts differently to lets say "telling us that the ATs have uses but basics are more important" instead of saying, "stop using the ATs, they are useless" then maybe we wouldnt have been so defensive.

We are also targeting both of you guys because I (at least I) have agreed with your "basics over ATs" argument several times over yet you keep repeating "basics over ATs" like a broken record.....we got it and we told you we agree. your point has been noted so just stop saying the same things post after post.

The majority of the arguing was the usefulness of the ATs and they are useful with a solid set of basics. What annoys us is that we agreed with you, and you refuse to agree with us. Even if you dont agree, you never attempted to discuss it by quoting our great points. They were simply ignored. You still have ignored my request about this going in the ultimate guide.

so who remembers the thread where rhylwefyr came in ehre and said that wingdashing and arrow looping are useless?
I do as in this threads point has already been discussed and proven that the ATs do mean something to Pits game with a solid set of basics.

But no seriously, I think alot of his AT's are simply overrated and can't replace the importance of his fundamentals. His AT's just aren't on the level of say Diddy's Banana game.
We already agreed, why do you keep saying the same thing over and over again instead of addressing our concerns?

I post because ultimately my goal is to share knowledge among the community and help it grow.

I don't give a **** about being viewed as right. What I care about..the only thing I have EVER cared about...something you would know if you ever read any one of the many threads I made...is spreading knowledge and helping the growth of the community.

I felt like the Pit community's growth was somewhat misguided. So I posted in this thread to share my thoughts.
Great! We really do appreciate things like this.. but the problem was you were too busy telling us what we are doing wrong or telling us what to do that you failed to listen. That is what frustrated me.

Do I feel like some of the AT's are useless? Yes. BUT...if the Pit boards as a whole were to put more emphasis on learning things in the right order and then moving onto experimenting with AT's then I would have no problem, because at least they are making sure that new players understand the right path to learning Pit. And if the AT's are working for you and you already have a solid handle on what Pit can do then more power to you.
How do you know that we were doing things in the wrong order? How do you know that we werent already telling the newcomers that basics were important? Because we were.
I tried to tell you that we have no power over those pits who never registered and those who choose not to read the threads that discuss basics but your reply was, "No johns" Like, what??

QFT

Which is why I can place high with Pit. :)
w/e dude
 

kown

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u know i kid. i hope. well i i did read it!! haha just funny to me and that AiB article. i ahve a feeling they really arent going to respond tho..
 
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