How to win with Pit...Seriously.

[Ryanarius]

I generally agree with the opening post. Doing what he suggest will help some pit players do better in tournaments. I believe in some matchups in some situations some of the advanced techniques are great. On popular tournament characters they tend to be the least useful. The pit boards tend to be pretty obsessive with AT's. I can think of situations where the AT's are great but the truth of the matter is those situations are pretty limited.

TWO, when the **** did I say spamming was a bad thing? I ****** do it? But it isnt my primary strategy. If the Pit metagame was ****** arrow spam like the thread suggests, then how do we expect to win when everyone knows how to counter it?

I think you misunderstood the topic creator. He's saying to follow up stuff because arrows are good. Go for a free arrow when you can't hit anything else. He's not saying stand in one spot and spam arrows until your opponent is at 150% (at least I don't think he is).

I also just want to point out that pretty much every respectable outsider main point for pit is that he needs to use less AT's. I mean sure you can argue they don't know the character like we do. Their opponent is just not using the AT's right and so on. Have you ever considered they may be on to something?

 

[kupo15]

Thank you Ryan for not ignoring me. Yes, I have agreed with ppl saying that we are obsessing with the ATs a bit too much and that basic play is better. Im not really sure what the OP intended with the arrows tbh. That is the way I interpreted.

I will admit that the hype about Wingdashing is partly my fault for thinking it was brawls version of the wavedash. Back then, my thoughts on the wavedash were utterly wrong and now (as in a month ago) I realize that Wingdashing may actually be NOTHING like Wavedashing. If I knew back then about Wavedashing what I knew now, it would not have been called Wingdashing. Then maybe ppl would have thought about using it the way its suppose to be used.

 

[teh_pwns_the]

The way i see it is whathisface should go back to the marth boards because he makes broad statements concerning all AT's without much thought behind it (or so it seems) and plus theres enough pits

Kupo's language analogy was godly btw


oh and for the AT's that are useful

Wing renewal : ***** i dont use it nearly as much as i should but almost anytime you hit someone into a danger bubble you should immediately WR and fly over there to finish him

Arrow Looping : SICK hits people in certain angles that cant normally be hit alsooooo messes with people like GandW who try to absorb or reflect projectiles, doesnt seem like it would do much but it really does as long as you dont loop at a stupid time

Wingdashing : well i dunno this AT really just isnt for me, im sure there are some pretty good uses for it but honestly it just seems like it would take a lot of time to figure out how to implement perfectly enough for it to be very useful (sorry Kupo i know this AT is like your baby, im not saying its bad, its jsut not for me)

ART : never bothered with it, i only use AR in certain situations anyways

Wind pushing : pretty useful, for getting grenades and whatnot away from you

oh ans whatshisface who mains marth and pit, you should learn to type a post without spamming the asterisk key

 

[CorruptFate]

any help anyone can offer is good just because he is a marth main doens't mean he has nothing to say about Pit. It means he'll have new and ideas that we haven't thought of along with the fact that he is part of the SBR he sould know his stuff a bit better then anyone else. PS he's right for the most part.

 

[Emblem Lord]

They weren't referring to me CorruptFate.

 

[neon..?]

thanks for all the tips

 

[chaos_]

interesting tips nice thread

 

[chaos_]

whooo smash journeyman!!!!!!!!

 

[neon..?]

why be happy off of journeyman?

 

[chaos_]

i know wat u wanted to say and cuz it took a while to get

 

[CorruptFate]

They weren't referring to me CorruptFate.

LOL my bad i only read a few lines of the post before mine, and saw "go back to the marth boards". But I still stand by what I said.

 

[kupo15]

So I was thinking and I need the OP or EL or someone who is thinking along the sames lines of them to answer me. I hope this doesnt get ignored like all of my posts have been because it is for a good cause.

What do you see ppl do with Wingdashing? Why do they get punished since I never do? Do they use it as if it was Wavedashing in melee?

Because I dont use it like wavedashing. I dont wingdash across the stage and back to throw mindgames in your face like wavedashing. I use it for surprise defensive tactics, for spacing (only when I know I will be safe and usually only once at that moment) and maybe a few other things that is unique to wavedashing.

So simply put, I and the others who have found success (like Sagemoon, Aisengobay, Rogue, Kown...) use wingdashing the way its made to be used by NOT pretending its a Wavedash...cause we all know it isnt a wavedash.

If this is the case, maybe a name change would be best. I ask this because I think we are arguing two different thing instead of the same thing. (We are arguing thinking you know how we use it correctly and you argue that we know how youve seen it used incorrectly)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I already responded to it (kinda): There's nothing wrong with Wingdashing, as long as you know how to use it. EL said so, TC said so and I say so too.

EL's critic was not directed to the people, who play Pit and make use of his ATs but to this board, for not dealing with basic stuff. If Wingdashing and Arrow Rain and Whatever, is all what this board deals with, you shouldn't be surprised, that Pit is considered a "gimmicky" character.

That's why EL said, that it was about time, this thread was created, since this board completely ignores pits problems and weaknesses but as a Pit community, it is your duty to work on it, in order to improve his metagame. EL was not criticising anbody for using ATs but for the lack of improvement and that stuff...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thanks Gheb I appreciate it.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Wow, thanks for keeping this topic up while I was away.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Well, he has that little Marth icon on his name.... I am not pleased.
I just had a match today against a TL, and I chose Norfair. Because of my problems with TL, I had to abandon my arrow Tech and pursue him. I suppose I dont use ATs in certain situations and stages because of the punishment for doing so can cause me to lose the match, but I can say that I hate TL so much.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Well, he has that little Marth icon on his name.... I am not pleased.
I just had a match today against a TL, and I chose Norfair. Because of my problems with TL, I had to abandon my arrow Tech and pursue him. I suppose I dont use ATs in certain situations and stages because of the punishment for doing so can cause me to lose the match, but I can say that I hate TL so much.

That doesn't mean I don't play Pit.

I'm just taking a break until everything here becomes sane.

 

[darkspatan117]

i think wingdash pretty useful against Luigi because of his low traction

 

[kupo15]

That didnt really answer my question. The thing is, I thought Wavedashing was something its not (actually better) which was being able to move back while facing forward. I realized a month ago it is more than that and that I have been promoting that it is similar to wavedashing when it is kinda but not really. Do you think ppl use it wrong because they think its more like wavedashing? If so, I vote for a name change. Ill be bringing this up in my wingdashing thread.

EL's critic was not directed to the people, who play Pit and make use of his ATs but to this board, for not dealing with basic stuff. If Wingdashing and Arrow Rain and Whatever, is all what this board deals with, you shouldn't be surprised, that Pit is considered a "gimmicky" character.

This isnt the only thing we stress and deal with at all. You have to understand that the majority of the ppl we see active were here from the beginning...as in they have there basics down which is why there are topics about the Pits ATs since the basics doesnt have to be readdressed unless a newcomer asks.

Its not our fault if the remain billion Pit users who never registers or is seen on this forum focus only on the ATs and not the basics. How are we suppose to reach out to John Doe if we dont know he exists?

And when random ppl who appear once and ask about Wingdashing or whatever, the reply is always the same, "It is ment for ........ but the important thing is to learn the basics first." You will find loads of those answers in the Q and A Sticky as well as the Ultimate guide, as well as my Advanced Pit guide and so on. And it is also not our fault if we do tell someone to learn the Basics and they choose to ignore our advice.

I feel like we are being attacked for something that is beyond our control. Do you agree with this even if it something you never thought about?

 

[Sharkz]

Well, he has that little Marth icon on his name.... I am not pleased.
I just had a match today against a TL, and I chose Norfair. Because of my problems with TL, I had to abandon my arrow Tech and pursue him. I suppose I dont use ATs in certain situations and stages because of the punishment for doing so can cause me to lose the match, but I can say that I hate TL so much.

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who hates TL's.
And I agree, some matches you need to use techs depending on what char. you're playing against. And sometimes, sadly, you have to abondon them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Second thread I made in the Marth boards.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164063

No johns Pit community.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Second thread I made in the Marth boards.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164063

No johns Pit community.

Amazing Thread with no Dancing-Blade-Aerial-Flip-Flop-You-Have-To-Be-Stupid-To-Fall-For-This-Ken-Combo-Extravaganza
(DBAFFYHTBSTFFTKCE)

 

[kupo15]

Second thread I made in the Marth boards.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164063

No johns Pit community.

Nice to know that both of you are stubborn without even addressing my points.....yet Again!

Youre right. Its unacceptable for us failing to tell Joe Schmo who hasnt registered a SWF account so we dont know he is even there that basics are more important than ATs. No Johns is right! **rolls eyes

 

[Emblem Lord]

As part of the Pit community you need to be doing whatever it takes to help his metagame and up and coming players.

You are not doing this.

You are only concentrating on one aspect of his game. Which also happens to be the least important.

Maximum Failure.

 

[kupo15]

fyi, we already have threads and guides on basic pit playing. so its not like its ignored. Its not our fault if one chooses to ignore it.

Maybe I should focus on Marths advanced game, suck and be horrible do to the lack of the basics, then blame you for not doing your job as the marth boards. same concept.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You wouldn't be able to do so sir.

We put crazy emphasis on basics and bump the threads that deal with all aspects of Marth's play.

You need to just make a short concise guide talking about his best moves and what makes them good and what you need to start playing him at a higher level.

Talk about basic set-ups and traps. What to punish with, bait with, approach with ,etc.

Nothing complicated just a Pit primer. That's all.

 

[kupo15]

you mean like the ultimate guide? http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181610 And this thread that is linked there? http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152567

Your forgetting that they only came to the boards unregistered to learn the ATs then shared it with their friends and ignored the crap about basics. Not just me but a bunch of other ppl. I come across these players who try to impress me with ATs and stuff and fail at it. Then I still blame the boards for their failure do to lack of basics and a focus on ATs. No johns. Sound fair? Thats exactly what your doing to us.

And I already told you, we DO remind ppl about basics!!

 

[Admiral Pit]

That is enough now. From my experience, my style slightly changes depending on what char im facing and what stage im on. TL, i can say it a hundred times, hate him so much, that his speed and projectiles keep me from arrow raining anyways, so, just pursue him with great aggression that I do.

This means that sometimes you have to abandon some of the stuff that you love (like my arrow rain and looping) in order to take out certain opponents. It varies with the situation. So in this case, me not using any of those ATs (I still use a bit of Wingdashing to mess with my opponent's minds, but I use it occasionally) really does help. I guess he was right.

 

[kupo15]

Ok Ill tell you what:

I have been thinking and this thread could be good for the beginning Pits and it has nice clear and simple advice. So,

Ill add this to my ultimate guide under one condition:
You have to admit that Wingdashing/arrow looping/wingrefresh have their place in high level tournament play and the OP has to reflect as such. This includes the title and saying something like this to the fancy stuff section. So this is like a short guide to starting Pit and I already made a guide to an Advanced Pit (number one talks about Basics over ATs)

So what do you think? Im a reasonable guy and look at both sides! ^_^

 

[Lezard]

Don't use fancy stuff (a la Wingdashing/Arrow looping)

Seriously, the time you spend doing this you could be spacing yourself better. The surprise element is the only thing that comes from these tactics. Just don't do the stuff.

 

[WhiteOblv]

To be god hoenst with all of the pit community.....id study dehf's vids of pit vs DC's marth if i were you. Its back when the japanese version was released BUT....i believe he played a better pit than the most others ive seen.

Pit players would polly get better faster focusing on the things that probably arent as flashy, but still win.

We need more threads about shield pressuring, using better spacing, throw combos, what atks shud be used when an opp. is vulnerable, his match-ups, his counter pick stages, match ups hes good in and bad in, chaingrab percentages and on what characters, etc.

Im just joing the pit board now, just my 2 cents dont flame me ya?

 

[Lezard]

Don't use fancy stuff (a la Wingdashing/Arrow looping)

Seriously, the time you spend doing this you could be spacing yourself better. The surprise element is the only thing that comes from these tactics. Just don't do the stuff.

taking this path doen't lead to a superb pit. to be a master of any character is to have 'no techniques' that is to say, a master pit will eventually incorpareted everything in his game-play while other may precieve him as being advance, to him its just a part of being a master were there is no advance tech but a way of playing the game subperbly, where everything happen on its own. What i am trying to say is wingdash/arrow looping is just other aspect of pit. However went you use the term 'fancy stuff' it implied that the move is not effective and is only there becuse it look good which is sadly misconceive, just remeber that if you focuse your attenion on one aspect of is gameplay you ignore the rest and that gose for people who only focuse their attention on the so call 'advance technique'

what separated the advance pit player for the rest,

THEY ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE NO ADVANCE TECNIQUE BUT THEY MAKE USE OF EVERYTHING PIT HAS

tell me what you guys think and i hope my advice help you become a bitter pit

 

[Emblem Lord]

Threads on shield pressure, attack follow-ups, and options traps now plz.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Why is this thread not closed?

When I played pit(I stopped for a while but I might use him again) I could do some of the AT's and they didnt seem useless to me. Stuff like looping one arrow and then holding down another and then firing both at once could work.

This thread is dumb.

 

[Khaos Blackdragon]

you mean like the ultimate guide? http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181610 And this thread that is linked there? http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152567

Your forgetting that they only came to the boards unregistered to learn the ATs then shared it with their friends and ignored the crap about basics. Not just me but a bunch of other ppl. I come across these players who try to impress me with ATs and stuff and fail at it. Then I still blame the boards for their failure do to lack of basics and a focus on ATs. No johns. Sound fair? Thats exactly what your doing to us.

And I already told you, we DO remind ppl about basics!!

That pretty much wraps up most of this argument. Which by the way from the beginning you guys could've just recommend to us to make a topic on stuff like how to shield pressure with Pit and what to do at certain distances instead of arguing about ATs that not many people have mastered and know how to correctly use. Yes, wingdashing is not like wavedashing, I understand that even though they are both used for the same purpose (or should be used ) spacing. Wingdash into dair into uair into arrow, quick and easy. The ultimate guide is there for a reason (thanks Kupo ) and people refuse to pay attention to it at times. Not much that the Pit community can do about that. Although, the Pit community could also add a little more basic info. We could've done all that already if you just recommend it instead of all that has happened in this thread. /rant

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Why is this thread not closed?

When I played pit(I stopped for a while but I might use him again) I could do some of the AT's and they didnt seem useless to me. Stuff like looping one arrow and then holding down another and then firing both at once could work.

This thread is dumb.

Lol another example of a noob that completely missed the point of this thread.

All i'm trying to say is not to put emphasis on these things because they generally won't get you anywhere. Sure, you mastered them, that's good for you, but that doesn't mean squat when you generally don't know how to get around an attack, set up, grab or frame trap/lock. And I honestly don't think that many people on these boards are capable of doing so.

Mastering these techniques techniques really won't help you in the end considering that you have better options of playing. Looping arrows is useless because it's a projectile Why not just shoot it at the opponent considering that there isn't much he can do about it? Why wingdash when you can simply walk? All I want to know is why you people insist on telling me how amazing these techniques are?

The applications are pointless. Just learn how to play the game without getting hit and you can do much better with Pit and at smash in general.

 

[Khaos Blackdragon]

Lol another example of a noob that completely missed the point of this thread.

All i'm trying to say is not to put emphasis on these things because they generally won't get you anywhere. Sure, you mastered them, that's good for you, but that doesn't mean squat when you generally don't know how to get around an attack, set up, grab or frame trap/lock. And I honestly don't think that many people on these boards are capable of doing so.

Mastering these techniques really won't help you in the end considering that you have better options of playing. Looping arrows is useless because it's a projectile Why not just shoot it at the opponent considering that there isn't much he can do about it? Why wingdash when you can simply walk? All I want to know is why you people insist on telling me how amazing these techniques are?

The applications are pointless. Just learn how to play the game without getting hit and you can do much better with Pit and at smash in general.

It may be better to actually try to use these techs themself than to call them useless just because not people know how to use these. That's how this whole thing started. As for arrow looping, I already made this post but it can lead to setups. I do this in one of the videos that I posted in another topic (which I don't feel like advertising since nobody comments on it anyways lol) Why wingdash instead of walk? Wingdash closes more space more quickly (if done right without landing lag) and surprises your opponent. Honestly though, try it out before you diss on it.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

It may be better to actually try to use these techs themself than to call them useless just because not people know how to use these. That's how this whole thing started. As for arrow looping, I already made this post but it can lead to setups. I do this in one of the videos that I posted in another topic (which I don't feel like advertising since nobody comments on it anyways lol) Why wingdash instead of walk? Wingdash closes more space more quickly (if done right without landing lag) and surprises your opponent. Honestly though, try it out before you diss on it.

I'm sure that I said that I have used these before and the applications aren't as practical in an actual match.

 

[kupo15]

All i'm trying to say is not to put emphasis on these things because they generally won't get you anywhere. Sure, you mastered them, that's good for you, but that doesn't mean squat when you generally don't know how to get around an attack, set up, grab or frame trap/lock. And I honestly don't think that many people on these boards are capable of doing so.

Mastering these techniques techniques really won't help you in the end considering that you have better options of playing. Looping arrows is useless because it's a projectile Why not just shoot it at the opponent considering that there isn't much he can do about it? Why wingdash when you can simply walk? All I want to know is why you people insist on telling me how amazing these techniques are?

All you want to know is why ppl insist that these techs are amazing? Who ever said they were amazing?

Working at the right time =/= amazing
working at the right time == its works

Stop putting words in our mouth and actually read what we are saying instead of trying your hardest to twist our words around.

Why wingdash when you could walk? Seriously, I already answered this but I guess you chose to ignore it.

I'm sure that I said that I have used these before and the applications aren't as practical in an actual match.

Because you dont know how to use it. Plain and simple.

Seriously, I came thinking that we were going to have a serious debate, but instead, its more like you saying your word is law. You should learn to read and respond to what we say instead of asking the questions over and over until you get the response you want to hear.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

All you want to know is why ppl insist that these techs are amazing? Who ever said they were amazing?

Working at the right time =/= amazing
working at the right time == its works

Stop putting words in our mouth and actually read what we are saying instead of trying your hardest to twist our words around.

Why wingdash when you could walk? Seriously, I already answered this but I guess you chose to ignore it.



Because you dont know how to use it. Plain and simple.

Seriously, I came thinking that we were going to have a serious debate, but instead, its more like you saying your word is law. You should learn to read and respond to what we say instead of asking the questions over and over until you get the response you want to hear.

Who are you to judge whether or not I know how to use them? It takes at least a span of 20 minutes to learn all of these simple techs, and using them in an actually match isn't that hard either. I just believe that there are better things you could be doing instead of trying to do something out of the ordinary.

Just Take DSF's and Forward's Pit's for example. They are capable of doing extremely well with them despite any of the fancy applications that everyone must-do-because-they-are-so-great. To simply assume that I can't use them is sheer idiocy. I can multi-shine with Fox and SHDL>JC shine with Fox in Melee, but that doesn't necessarily means that I should use them as much as possible when there are more options at my disposal. The same concept can be applied with Wingdashing, Renewal, Art and Arrow looping.

I'm not bashing these things because they are new, but because they aren't that useful and practical. There are plenty of new things that are practical, such as Diddy's Banana slides and Glide tosses that helped him move up the tier list. I can guarantee you that Pit would go up on the tier list if we put more emphasis on how to approach situations in a more practical manner rather than practicing how to apply wingdashing etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntkoUSScfRc

Use this as your guide and quit trying to hard to achieve something unnecessary.