How to 'Dorf that move? 'How to deal with specific attacks' - IKE'S JAB

[Z1GMA]

Z1GMA could you just end the BLIZZARD discussion and use this picture?

http://www.yorapper.com/Photos/you-gonna-get-*****-yorapper.jpg

Well, that's pretty much what we can expect from Blizzard..

I'll change the current attack soon enough.

Please don't post if it's not something about BLIZZARD.

LOOK AT 4:20 OF THIS VID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_AuqaEs840
It's a Dsmash, right? It drags Nana out.

 

[Z1GMA]

Marth's Fair

Discuss.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganondorf can't really punish Marth's FAir on shield, or even a powershield, so it'll be best to.. just dodge.

 

[Breezy]

Ganondorf can't really punish Marth's FAir on shield, or even a powershield, so it'll be best to.. just dodge.

This

10this

 

[B!squick]

That's an awesome picture. :O

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Dodge is probably the Best way.

Fsmash can be useful against Marth's Fair ?

 

[Z1GMA]

Fsmash can be useful against Marth's Fair ?

I don't think so.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

I don't think so.

But Z1GMA...

I think we should test any attack that can Block Marth's Fair and Marth take the Damage.

How about Dodge -> Ftilt ?

 

[qerkdtx]

The best chance is is really to spotdodge and punish the lag the comes after with a gerudo/grab/whatever.

 

[MoblinMan]

no way. I'm sorry but that's completely unreliable. Every marth I've played will more often than not short hop double fair, which is mostly safe on block when spaced and incredibly hard to spotdodge.

Spoiler

especially against us

Spotdodge?? what?

Let me run through what would happen if you try to spotdodge marth's fair other than for the rare surprise maneuver.

1) spotdodge the first one. Get hit by the second one in the sequence as you come out of the spotdodge. No?

2) 1st fair misses your shield, he goes in for the second one. you can spotdodge and you might be able to d tilt, or more feasibly roll away to reset the situation.

3)you shield the first hit, spotdodge the second. in which case you probably don't even have the frame advantage to do anything other than buffer a shield roll or a jab. And the jab probably won't have the reach to hit him anyway, that is if he hasn't started throwing out D tilts or something as you were coming out of the spotdodge lag.


Whatever you do, don't let the first fair hit you, I'm pretty sure double fair is a true combo on Ganondorf unless he techs, because I've been juggled out of short hop double fairs across the stage many, many times.

What you want to do is shield both hits, roll away. He can chase this with more double fairs though - so don't be predictable.





Now here comes the part where the player Makes up for Ganon's shortcomings. Double short hop fair is **** easy to punish if you know he's gonna do it before-hand.

Let both fairs hit your shield and see what he does. Does he D tilt? next time jump out after both fairs hit and thunderstorm him while he's trying to poke your legs.

Better yet, predict the double fair entirely and wiz kick him in the face after he leaves the ground- it goes through/between the fairs almost all the time.



But, this being brawl, you're going to have to go the defensive route on this one. Shield that *****, seriously, and then try to predict it next time.

 

[VodkaHaze]

...Powershielding, maybe?

 

[PhantomX]

If the Marth's are approaching you with fair and you aren't getting ***** by their unsweetspotted move combos, a retreating fair has a good chance of trading hits. If they are ahead and are just retreating fairs on you, put down the controller and cry until the time runs out (or they kill you).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay to punish a retreating F-air, you gotta run up and powershield and iDA. That's pretty much the only way.

Non retreating F-airs are easy (assuming you shielded). N-air out of shield.

And then what PhantomX said about your F-air having a ton of range and stuff.

 

[MoblinMan]

yeah, that probably makes more sense than my explanation, since all I play in Brawl are guys that mained marth in melee. They never retreat their fairs xP

 

[Z1GMA]

How many frames does Marth have on his RCO lag?

 

[SuSa]

Fsmash can work against an fair that for some reason wasn't retreated. The slight movement backwards can cause the fair to miss you, and then you hit.

It's not reliable at all, but it is an option.

A rather stupid option.

But an option.

 

[PhantomX]

You'd be surprised how often a stutter stepped fsmash will hit/trade hits with someone trying to approach with fairs... really not that dumb of an option if you're spaced correctly and have predicted it. Pretty dumb to just randomly throw it out there, though.

 

[PK-ow!]

Fair does have end lag, you know.

And, umm, landing lag.

It can be punished. You just need to guard the hit perfectly. Come on, we can do that by now. >_>


Oh yes, and, Marth has enough frames of RCO lag that it's worth it to let him land and prepare something in response.

 

[deepseadiva]

how many frames is it?

 

[Z1GMA]

Let both fairs hit your shield and see what he does. Does he D tilt? next time jump out after both fairs hit and thunderstorm him while he's trying to poke your legs.

Well, yeah, Marth will (ironicly enough) play the male's role of the dance.
We can just wait for his Fairs to land, and then respond to whatever he does next.

It'll be a little like "Rock, Paper, Scissors"

Marth > Fair Fair Dtilt | Ganon > Dair OoS
Marth > Fair Fair Ftilt | Ganon > Shield+Dtilt

And so on...

I use to try N predict his Fairs, and ram right through him with a DA.

 

[B!squick]

Wait, FTilt? As in, Marth's FTilt? I think that move being terrible compared to DTilt was the whole reason why they use DTilt instead. >.> I never see a Marth use the thing.

 

[Z1GMA]

Wait, FTilt? As in, Marth's FTilt? I think that move being terrible compared to DTilt was the whole reason why they use DTilt instead. >.> I never see a Marth use the thing.

Well, you're probably right.
But you get the idea.

 

[Z1GMA]

Which attack do you guys want next?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Which attack do you guys want next?

Ike's jab? Snake's UTilt also sounds nice.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ike's jab? Snake's UTilt also sounds nice.

Ike's Jabs it is, then.

Seriously... His fast and effective Jab Cancel Game alone, is what gives him the
upper hand in the 'Ganon Vs Ike' match-up.

The fact that Ike has a much greater grab range, isn't really that big of a problem for us.
- It's those very, very good jabs!

An Ike without a good Jab Cancel Game, can't even beat a Snake without limbs >_>'

 

[:034:]

I play against a sufficient Ike every now and then and jabs will **** up your ****. Jabs and fair is basically the whole match-up for Ike. Jab cancel into nair, to jab to grab to fair, or just jab cancel into... well, anything.

Try to SDI out of it, if you can, otherwise try to shield and get outta there somehow.

As for range, I think dtilt > first jabs, but I think Ike's third jab outprioritizes our dtilt. Not too sure about it, though. Makes sense though - feet don't exactly like extremely heavy swords.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ike's Jab​

Discuss !

 

[SaltyKracka]

One should be either stomping the jab or getting the hell out of range.

 

[:034:]

Ike's second jab... Does he really kick that far? Nice balance there, Ike. >_>

 

[Z1GMA]

Ike's second jab... Does he really kick that far? Nice balance there, Ike. >_>

Ye, it has quite the range.

Just imagine if Ganon had Ike's jabs, but with Dtilt as the second hit. lulz broken.

 

[Nysyarc]

Well, if Ike actually uses his third jab and it doesn't hit you, it can easily be punished with a Flame Choke or even a Dair or something if you're close enough. A good Ike will never use his third jab if it won't connect though. The first jab can be canceled and is a true combo into itself, and then can be canceled again and is a true combo into a grab (against Ganon it's a combo, some characters can escape but they have a 1 frame window... it hasn't been done).

If Ike just does all three jabs in sequence, it can be DId down and shielded or if you began close to Ike, you can DI towards him and end up behind him, ready to punish the lag on his third jab (the third one won't hit you behind or above him, as seen in the hitbox diagram). If you get hit by his first jab at the very edge of it's range, DI down and shield, because he is likely to follow through with the whole combo.

If you're hit in the middle of the hitbox for his first jab (which is where Ike will try to get you), DI down and hope he doesn't cancel into a grab so you can shield and punish, cause otherwise he'll grab -> pummel -> Bthrow -> DA. Whatever you do, don't DI a jab up when you're at higher percents. The Ike will take advantage and cancel his jab into an Utilt or a Bair to finish you off (both can be shielded and punished if you DI down, but will likely connect if you're in the air). Always DI down or towards him if you're close enough already.

Otherwise, try your best to outspace him so he doesn't get a chance to initiate his jabs. Any good Ike will be looking to jab you at every possible opportunity, and will be spacing with Fair and Nair the rest of the time.

 

[Ricky]

Ye, it has quite the range.

Just imagine if Ganon had Ike's jabs, but with Dtilt as the second hit. lulz broken.

Yeah that would actually be pretty awesome. Anyway discussing Ike's Jab game a notable thing about it is he can easily Combat Walk Ganon if done accurately. As a matter of fact he is the easiest by far because of his height and Ike's good range. The third neutral jab not connecting can allow this to happen. The result is usually a ridiculously looking jab cancel, which can be refuted to it's actual technique. Just thought I'd throw that out there to the lesser experienced on Ike and some of his jab stuff.

Otherwise, try your best to outspace him so he doesn't get a chance to initiate his jabs. Any good Ike will be looking to jab you at every possible opportunity, and will be spacing with Fair and Nair the rest of the time.

^ QFT.

 

[Nysyarc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88_lUvRMZQE

^^^ There's a recent video with an example of combat walking in a real match; it's not a good match, but I just wanted to give a video showing that it is pretty simple to execute on a Ganon if they aren't careful. Skip ahead to around 1:19, and that's where the Ike starts the combat walk. All he has to do is hold down the attack button and it will keep going until either a certain percent, the edge of the stage, or if you SDI down it will end because the second jab will connect.

 

[A2ZOMG]

90% of the time, Ike will Jab to punish something you do. If he so happens to Jab your shield (which should be relatively infrequent), you probably can shieldgrab it (even with Ganon's horrible grab range, you can get him since he leans forward on his Jab).

Otherwise spacing your usual spacers can work. D-tilt, DA, F-air, that stuff...

Crossing him up also works well. Try not to roll away since that gets punished by his DA, which will get you offstage, which is of course annoying.

 

[Nysyarc]

90% of the time, Ike will Jab to punish something you do. If he so happens to Jab your shield (which should be relatively infrequent), you probably can shieldgrab it (even with Ganon's horrible grab range, you can get him since he leans forward on his Jab).

Remember that Ike can cancel his first jab into a grab very quickly, and if his first jab is shielded, that's what he's likely to do. I think Ganon's own jab would be the best option if you manage to shield a jab, although even that may only work if you powershield and time it perfectly. I could maybe do some testing of this later, I'm interested now because I main both Ike and Ganon, so it's good to know the match-up.

You'll basically have to read the Ike and figure out his jab game. If he likes to jab -> grab, a spot dodge after shielding the first jab may be your best bet because then you can jab him or retreat easier. If he just cancels the jab into more jabs, rolling behind him may work as long as you don't do it redundantly. You want him to use all three jabs on your shield, then you can punish with a Flame Choke or a Dtilt or even a Dair pretty easily.

Unfortunately that won't happen too often, most Ikes will cancel the first jab into itself or into a grab, making it very difficult for Ganon to escape and giving him very few options once he's caught. Really the main thing is to just try your best to avoid being jabbed in the first place, because against an experienced Ike, you're going to take some damage every time that first little punch comes out (even if it's not from that first punch itself).

 

[Kishin]

Ganondorf is soooo susceptible to Ike's jab. Learn to DI out. I personally don't know the specifics of DIing out of it myself but I think you can DI away and up(if the jab is spaced), Toward and down(if you're close), Toward and up(if you're close) and away and down(if it's spaced). If you're DIing up and whatever then jumping could help. If you get hit with a spaced jab1 you DI out enough to punish with a D-tilt if he follows up with jab2, grab, jab cancel jab1. If you get hit with jab1 -> jab2 at close range then you may be able to DI behind him and punish. Combat Walks are fairly easy to DI out of. Don't punish an Ike's 3rd jab lag (such as if you DI out of jab3 range) with murder choke unless you're close (like F-tilt close). In fact, I don't think Ganon has any move quick enough to punish jab3 lag while out of jab3 range with the exception of maybe an IDA or wizard kick.

tl;dr, Jabs **** Ganon, learn to DI out

 

[A2ZOMG]

In fact, I don't think Ganon has any move quick enough to punish jab3 lag while out of jab3 range with the exception of maybe an IDA or wizard kick.

D-tilt and F-air.

Ganondorf's D-tilt and F-air are among the longest ranged in the game.

 

[PK-ow!]

What about Dash Attack, after jab3? It would clank with jab, iirc, but what's the space between you then?

and you do both have frame neutrality afterward, right? Where is that data?


Oh, and I had this specific scenario, for against Snake, where I wanted to ask "what can you do and what's the payoff?" but I forgot it. It involved ftilt... and shielding...

 

[Z1GMA]

I believe we can mash jump to get of out of his Jab Cancel -> Grab, right?

 

[Big O]

If they do it perfectly and you are close it may be inescapable but I doubt anyone can jab cancel that well on a consistant basis.