How to deal with/punish Discussing MK's Shuttleloop

[Gichan]

so metaknight's dair it is i assume.

What do you guys do against it? I lost a money match to a camping MK. everytime i try something i eat a dair and when they run out of jumps, nado. Then when they are on the ground, it is all fairs....

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

MK's dair or peaches float shenanigans?

 

[Gichan]

I think MK's dair since we are discussing it.(?)

I remember reading a comment by Overswarm on one of blue rogue's matches and it said something about waiting for at least the third jump with the dair and then just use a uair after that because the MK is not high enough to be out of our grasp. I started trying to use this and I am only succesful sometimes, but if I got better at it I'd be more effective with it.

the only other way to deal with it to would probably wait for them to use their nado and predict where they will approach and just dash attack/dacus him or dash grab.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think MK's dair since we are discussing it.(?)

I remember reading a comment by Overswarm on one of blue rogue's matches and it said something about waiting for at least the third jump with the dair and then just use a uair after that because the MK is not high enough to be out of our grasp. I started trying to use this and I am only succesful sometimes, but if I got better at it I'd be more effective with it.

the only other way to deal with it to would probably wait for them to use their nado and predict where they will approach and just dash attack/dacus him or dash grab.

Gichan you're all over the place what does the dair have to do with MK's nado ?

 

[Gichan]

No, what i meant is that MK's dair is an issue for wario. And something that is usually always done is that they'll dair until they run out of jumps and then start to nado. So ONE way to deal with MK's dair is wait to see what they do when they run out of jumps. Most of the time they'll nado back to the ground so wait until uit runs out and preidct where they will land and dash attack or grab them.

that's what I meant.

 

[GOL | 482 | JSalt]

No, what i meant is that MK's dair is an issue for wario. And something that is usually always done is that they'll dair until they run out of jumps and then start to nado. So ONE way to deal with MK's dair is wait to see what they do when they run out of jumps. Most of the time they'll nado back to the ground so wait until uit runs out and preidct where they will land and dash attack or grab them.

This is true against certain MK players, but not every MK will do this. Some of them will keep using a certain amount of jumps, while others will mix up the number of jumps and dairs they use before landing or using nado.

MK's dair is a very quick attack that beats out most, if not all, of our moves. Period. There's not much Wario can do about it, but, as Gi said, if the MK starts to fall into a pattern, make sure to capitalize on it. It's best to see what they do AFTER the dairs.

As Lee Martin says to do(as MK), rising dairs and falling upairs. They will use it to keep you at bay, not necessarily as an aggressive move, but more to lull you into a mistake or an opening.

 

[PhantomX]

Wario can beat out MK's dair. Every jump MK does gives him less height than the one before it, and the move is punishable on the side that it's starting from (he does a sweep from one side to the next). If you wait for him to be at a good height, you can hit him after his swing has passed you w/ upair, waft, nair if he's low enough, or utilt/upsmash if he's falling into you. UTILT always trades hits w/ dair anyway, from what I've seen.

People need to realize that the trick to dealing w/ most aerial walls is to wait for them on the ground/do things from the ground, lol.

 

[PhantomX]

That's not true, Wario can do plenty against MK's dair. Every next jump MK does will give him less height than his previous one, meaning he's slowly descending. If you wait for him to be w/in SH/FH aerial range, you can punish him. In order to punish MK's dair you want to get on the side of him WHERE THE MOVE starts, as he has to finish the sweeping animation before he can do anything else (it's also shorter ranged on that side). If you do this and he's close enough, there are enough frames to upair/waft/nair him. From what I've noticed, utilt will also at least always trade hits with the move, and the last hit of upsmash can beat it too (these are good if they're starting to fall into you/are close to the ground.

What people haven't realized yet is that the big trick to beating all these aerial walls that people like to throw out, is to approach them from the ground. If they start dairing, you can crawl/run under them if you need to in order to get to the short side. If they try to turn around, that's extra frames for you to do things.

The real nuisances in this matchup are nair and grounded up b. The former beats out pretty much everything during the point of it's biggest hitbox, w/ the exception of our dair's disjointed hitbox. We can also punish their nair oos w/ a perfect shield, but I haven't really found anything else. Grounded UP B is just **** tastic b/c it covers the entire area that Wario approaches from while giving invinciblity. I've found that short of baiting/airdodging/shielding it, we can't do anything, and they can just hit us out of moves w/ it. Unless I'm ******** and jump into things, this is the move everyone kills me with. If they whiff it though, they get *****.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Since it seems as though everyone wants to talk about MK's dair.

 

[Gichan]

Also, if we're talking about MK's dair, it is punishable on shield by Wario even if MK does a rising dair. You can hit him with fair/nair and maybe even waft probably now that i think about it (<3 frame data)

So you are saying that if MK hits me shield with dair I can hit him with nair? Wouldn't he be too high to hit him? I can't imagine that.

And PX, I see what you mean with your advice. I had my gf play MK and do rising dairs and I can't seem to hit her, I always have this habit of trying to hit MK right away. You're right, we have to ground ourselves first and then predict since it is almost useless to try to hit MK in their first two jumps.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Padô]

I never try to punish MK dair within his first jumps, he is too high and the time for a good reponse to our attacks are just larger. Last time I tried to punish MKs dair while he was too high was when Affinity came here and he just out prioritized my waft with another dair and said: "Wasn't that supposed to have super armor frames?" and I: "...".
If timed correctly we can punish it with Uair speacially, for 17% but if you miss it when he is too high you are getting another dair on your face or maybe a FF'd Nair.
When MK is around his 4th jump I try to jump higher than him and Dair it sometimes, If the player gets used he's using his last jump do hit you with Uair and I always airdodge through and wait MK to land and punish with a grab or something.
Sometimes the Mk will fall a little from his 2nd jump and perform a rising Dair on his 3rd jump, when this happens you are able to poke him with nair/fair as said before.

 

[Overswarm]

I think MK's dair since we are discussing it.(?)

I remember reading a comment by Overswarm on one of blue rogue's matches and it said something about waiting for at least the third jump with the dair and then just use a uair after that because the MK is not high enough to be out of our grasp. I started trying to use this and I am only succesful sometimes, but if I got better at it I'd be more effective with it.

the only other way to deal with it to would probably wait for them to use their nado and predict where they will approach and just dash attack/dacus him or dash grab.

Wait for 3rd jump, jump and u-air. I easily beat Blue Rogue with just punishing him for trying to u-air properly. 30 seconds after I tell him this? U-AIR U-AIR U-AIR U-AIR. Blue Rogue learns too fast. :[

Also, don't double jump near MK. It's a free nado 100% of the time. You can dair through the center if MK mispaces it... but he won't.

That's about all I know about the matchup lol

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Overswarm]

You can also footstool the tornado if they do it directly below you

This doesn't actually stop the problem, but definitely helps put you in a good position.


I wonder if the bike could be used in someway?

 

[Lord Chair]

This doesn't actually stop the problem, but definitely helps put you in a good position.


I wonder if the bike could be used in someway?

Not against nado, unless MK gives you the time to hop onto it, get off of it, pick it up and throw it in the nado (the throw can be dodged on reaction).

I'd say no.

 

[Overswarm]

I was meaning as more of an escape route.

 

[GOL | 482 | JSalt]

Can't you bite through tornado? Like you take the damage but still bite MK? I think I remember doing so, but I think it would work if they are coming at you with it.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This generated some pretty good discussion any more tips ?

 

[Juno McGrath]

you can sheildgrab nado i believe.

 

[Dynomite]

you can sheildgrab nado i believe.

If you mean Shield THEN grab yes but i wouldnt risk grabbing mk out of the tornado.

If the mk is smart he will space the ending lag time away from wario, so if you are good at DACUS and can measure it right go for it.

 

[GOL | 482 | JSalt]

There's even a thread about shieldgrabbing tornado: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262212

toobusy even says he has bitten thru tornado before; I'm still confident we can bite it.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Well dacus is my latest thing.

ive been working on it a lot

trying to implement it in my game son.

 

[BMX]

DACUS is sex. Plain and simple. Perfect spacing move.

And Snapps, I can't leave a VM to you. >_>

I'll gladly take the housing. I'll be better by then, so I'll get us more practice. :D

O yea, for Dair, it's particularly slow, so if the MK is losing his jumps, he'll have to return to the ground, so it's a perfect time to predict and punish.

I go with Uair or bair for damage, but Fair is a trusty move that can poke MK effectively.

 

[Dynomite]

Well dacus is my latest thing.

ive been working on it a lot

trying to implement it in my game son.

Its amazing for punishing people and surprise attacks.

btw have u confirmed a way to getting to waba? Im really hyped for this one.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Its amazing for punishing people and surprise attacks.

btw have u confirmed a way to getting to waba? Im really hyped for this one.

well devin dosent have much money so i doubt it man =[

 

[PhantomX]

We CAN bite through tornado, but it's not reliable in the least.

 

[Juno McGrath]

DACUS is sex. Plain and simple. Perfect spacing move.

And Snapps, I can't leave a VM to you. >_>

I'll gladly take the housing. I'll be better by then, so I'll get us more practice. :D

Yeah son. Ill add you on aim or something and we can talk on there. Ill need to know what situations to dacus in.

 

[BMX]

I dair through everything, except Uair, gay *** move. >_>

Dacus also helps you get out of situations like being pressured.

Spaced correctly and you mind****ed your opponent into thinking you have awesome spacing.

 

[MalcolmM]

Just throwing out another option...

U can entirely wait the succession of dairs out and camp MKs landing. It's not hard to do if you consider options when playing. He dairs u and moves in a direction...he can't dair you again until he falls. So he taps your shield and you chase him and then you spotdodge his obvious next attempt on your shield and you chase him and you do this until he begins to descend a bit too low to dair. Then you chase him and angle your shield up because a nado may be on the way. Punish nado falling aerial or attempt to airdodge ftilt with Grab/Fsmash/Dacus and do that until they come up with something else.

 

[Lord Chair]

Just throwing out another option...

U can entirely wait the succession of dairs out and camp MKs landing. It's not hard to do if you consider options when playing. He dairs u and moves in a direction...he can't dair you again until he falls. So he taps your shield and you chase him and then you spotdodge his obvious next attempt on your shield and you chase him and you do this until he begins to descend a bit too low to dair. Then you chase him and angle your shield up because a nado may be on the way. Punish nado falling aerial or attempt to airdodge ftilt with Grab/Fsmash/Dacus and do that until they come up with something else.

Unless he ends with a nado.

 

[bassem6]

Unless he ends with a nado.

Did you read his last two sentences? You can punish the nado if you angle your shield up and grab or just fsmash/ftilt it.

As for biting through the nado, I have found that you can bite the nado during startup and sometimes Im able to bite the bottom part of it where it has the least range

\-------/
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... \--/ <---there

 

[Overswarm]

Most good MKs will land with an extra jump so that if you try to camp his landing he has an extra jump for momentum.

 

[GOL | 482 | JSalt]

If they tornado, just shield(grab) it if they try to hit you, use a move that'll go thru it (only if you're in the position to do so with dair, ftilt, fsmash, etc.), or punish the landing. If they land on the other side of the stage, run and DACUS. Just remember, if they keep doing the same thing, make sure YOU are the one mixing it up. Some players will throw out predictable stuff or a deceivingly quick smash just to bait your reaction if you keep doing the same thing, and you can get punished for it.

Should this stuff be put together with the matchup threads? I mean, it is supplemental yet vital information for us against these certain characters, as the moves we have discussed are crucial to their respective MU.

EDIT: @Bassem, yea, that's where I believe I got it off. Just like shieldgrabbing the nado, MK himself has to be in the area of the hitbox.

@Overswarm, makes sense, it's just something else we need to be aware of.

 

[Lord Chair]

@Malcolm

Since when is DACUS safe, even IF it hits?

 

[GOL | 482 | JSalt]

You could hit their shield with the dash attack, then upsmash. Kinda like what Falco does, but no one expects it. It'll work 99% of the time, until you do it the second time to the same person.

 

[Lord Chair]

I recall people DIing out of my usmash without even DIing.

 

[Juno McGrath]

I recall people DIing out of my usmash without even DIing.

might sig this.