How to deal with/punish Discussing MK's Shuttleloop

[MalcolmM]

Just throwing out another option....

DACUS isnt safe. That doesnt mean u should never use it. Otherwise u would use a total of 0 moves against MK. They can SDI out of dair. Don't use that move either.


Edit: Ewwww angry post but u get my sincere distaste for people looking for a concrete way of beating a character with far more options than wario.

 

[Overswarm]

I recall people DIing out of my usmash without even DIing.

What...?

I don't......

How....

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

DACUS isnt safe. That doesnt mean u should never use it. Otherwise u would use a total of 0 moves against MK. They can SDI out of dair. Don't use that move either.


Edit: Ewwww angry post but u get my sincere distaste for people looking for a concrete way of beating a character with far more options than wario.

LoL **** malcolm don't hurt him.

 

[Lord Chair]

DACUS isnt safe. That doesnt mean u should never use it. Otherwise u would use a total of 0 moves against MK. They can SDI out of dair. Don't use that move either.


Edit: Ewwww angry post but u get my sincere distaste for people looking for a concrete way of beating a character with far more options than wario.

That was not an angry post, you were stating your opinion. And yes DACUS is an option, but even if properly done and all it still tends to leave you open even if it his, much like ZSS jab on certain characters is pure rubbish, even if it hits she still takes more damage or even a killing blow than she did doing the jab.

 

[MalcolmM]

U take a lot of risks in the matchup. I don't see anything wrong with making MK cover more options and having more chances to make a mistake. I, personally, SUCK at doing the DACUS and didnt use it all vs anyone @ Pound. Jason told me on AIM that what I needed to do was start DACUSing to throw off his spacing and that in his experience vs other warios...that made them more difficult to play against. Shadow has given me similar advice and he plays both characters. I'm only giving you the advice that someone good gave me. It's sensible advice. My fingers are just too stupid atm to execute it.

As for the comparison to ZSS's jab...sure finishing the jab combo is the worst thing possible, but the first jab is not bad @ all and the most people can do against it on reaction is shield grab or else you can run by then. Using all 3 jabs isnt comparable to DACUS...its more comparable to uptilting directly next to MK with wario. Because the reward is so minuscule in comparison to the risk of actually doing it.

The reward of the DACUS is they have to cover ur aerial option and grounded ones. It forces a different wall to be formed. A wall that has holes. Once again...I can't even do the DACUS on any consistant basis, but from watching Shadow's wario and how Jason has to play against him in comparison to how he plays against me...its clear that it makes a difference.

Thanks for not seeing it as an angry post tho. I like to post in a happier manner than that. Otherwise u can get into lame arguments that don't involve the game D:

 

[PhantomX]

I recall people DIing out of my usmash without even DIing.

That's called knockback, silly.

DACUS isn't good as a move, per say, it's good b/c it's a very quick mid-long range option that they have to be continually wary of. It's similar to why our regular boost-grab is good to use (as opposed ot jumping/running in and shielgrabbing). It gives us an option that's rangier than what we usually have.

FYI: this only applies to DACUS when used so that only the last 2 hits or so connect, so that they don't have as much time to SDI and/or retaliate.

Don't use it repeatedly, use it intelligently and as a surprise kill/punishing move. If you use it too much they'll start to expect it and SDI/space for it more.

 

[hunger!]

i really only use dacus to punish nado's after i shield them and they start to move away. free like 10 percent if you hit with last part of it. or i get bored and just dacus left and right (did this vs neo....wasnt a good idea) but it sure looks cool.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Anyone got any ideas to discuss for the next topic?

 

[Dynomite]

Anyone got any ideas to discuss for the next topic?

how to punish Falco's side B (when he runs away and lasers when you get close he runs like a lil *****?
How to dealwith/punish luigi's Fsmash at 90.
How to deal with/punish olimars pikmin spam?
How to deal with/ punish snake's Ftilt/up tilt spam?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

how to punish Falco's side B (when he runs away and lasers when you get close he runs like a lil *****?
How to dealwith/punish luigi's Fsmash at 90.
How to deal with/punish olimars pikmin spam?
How to deal with/ punish snake's Ftilt/up tilt spam?

We got snakes ftilt done already

 

[Juno McGrath]

how to deal with/punish grab realeases? ^_^

 

[Gichan]

Falco's side B is a good idea, i still don't know precisely when we hit it and stuff.

 

[Lord Chair]

I can write a wall of text on phantasm in a matter of seconds.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So is everyone good on discussing phantasm ?

 

[MalcolmM]

Would be helpful. I don't have much to contribute to it since I just started playing falco's about 2 weeks ago, but I would like to read it.

 

[Gichan]

I'm also fine with it, it is an annoying move to deal with.

 

[Lord Chair]

Proactive wall of text:

How Phantasm works: It can be canceled as you should know, though for offensive purposes this is rarely done. The first half of the Phantasm itself (the teleport) consists of invincibility frames, don't try to interrupt Falco within about his ftilt range, because he can't be damage at that point. Of course he has no invincibility during the startup frames, feel free to nag him there.

Phantasm is most often used when Falco is somewhat in control, this usually means he is fully capable of spamming SHDL without any fear of his opponent bursting his way through it. When he does feel threatened, however, the logical response is to Phantasm away. Sometimes this is done when Falco feels that his opponent is getting impatient and will try to just shield approach and grab through the lasers, shielding in front of Falco just outside of grab range usually means a Phantasm.

Of course higher-level Falco players will know that you know this, and will mix it up carefully enough. The deal is pretty much to either bait a Phantasm while not getting hit by lasers (which is easy enough for Wario to do), or not to allow Falco to get to it.

Option 1 takes more patience but may pay off, a predicted Phantasm means that Wario can space away to where the Phantasm will finish, powershield it and punish with nair/bair/dair/fsmash/etc. Whenever you expect a Phantasm but aren't sure whether or not you can space all the way back (or you just find the chance to be rather high, yet not guaranteed ie 20-50%) you can simply nair or dair way out of Falco's range. If Falco decides to Phantasm he will eat a weak hit of the nair or the last hits of dair, and he will be in a rather silly situation, one in Wario's advantage. When in an on-stage situation it is not probably you can catch Falco in the startup frames, as he'll usually be too far away.

Option 2 is playing aggressively and keeping control of the match, and not practical unless you can deal with option 1 as well.

The only other practical situation for Falco to Phantasm is when he's offstage or on the ledge and wants to get back to where his character design does, in fact, work (for the slow people among us: that's onstage). Aside of the standard ledge options, Falco is blessed with Phantasm. If you expect a Phantasm you can beat it (non-canceled) with random dair/nair, or simply fairing Falco in the startup frames and practically instantly gimping him (since he has lost his DJ). Don't try to just shield near the edge, that doesn't quite work since his ledge roll is fast enough to just get away with it. You should space just outside his ledge attack range, stay shorthopped and always be wary of Phantasm. It makes ledgeguarding a bit more difficult, but then again it's very much capable of being dealt with. Beware of Phantasm cancels to catch you off-guard.

Oh if for some reason you find yourself on a stage like frigate, in which you can sometimes get a guaranteed non-ledge-sweetspotting Phantasm, dsmash is usually the best choice to interrupt it with, since Falco will probably bounce back into a situation he can't quite recover from. Same but less so with nair only less humiliating ^^

edit: If I miss anything or if there are any questions, just add/ask.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Zoning with Phantasm.

From my experience some falco like to use their phantasm as you approach them. If they do SHDL and you air dodge typically a phantasm will follow. It's used as an escape tool most likely and used for frame traps and to close distance. Also I believe that the hardest time to deal with phantasm is while they're onstage since it has the most potential.

Falco recovering with Phantasm.

This to me is when he's must vulnerable. Depending on your distance from him you can normally fair or nair him out of the move while on start up. If you're not close enough you can wait on stage if the falco is sloppy you can punish however, I wouldn't count on that with better falcos but who knows mistakes do happen but don't bank on it. More than likely they will cancel the phantasm and just grab the ledge.

Ledge Phantasm

Falco on the ledge he can either phantasm on the stage or into the ledge. This becomes tricky because once again based on your distance your opportunity to punish can be eliminated and he can actually go from a bad position to a good one. You get too close to the ledge he'll phantasm past you too far away he'll cancel and land safely.


You can fair/ nair them out of their phantasm. As well as bite them out of the second half of the phantasm risky may not be worth it. If they mess up their phantasm or you predict where they will cancel uair/fsmash punish hard.

If anyone has anything to add commment or if something is wrong then let me know.

 

[Lord Chair]

About that, you cannot Bite Falco out of it. In the latter part of the Phantasm the Bite and the Phantasm will technically cancel eachother out, which may come as a surprise to Falco but doesn't really work as well as, well, pretty much anything else.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

These last few post have been amazing.

 

[Padô]

Sometimes I can bite it on the inicial frames and last frames, have done that with Dair too.

Usually when he's hanging the ledge and waiting a good opportunity to get onto stage I just do a retreated Dair near the ledge and land near the end of phantasm and then punish with 2nd Hit nair for a grab(CG) or with another dair, waft if you want to kill thought sometimes I got powershielded on FSmashes too.

You can fair poke the very start of the phantasm execution offstage, If you do that, go for a nair/waft it's ALMOST guaranteed and ruins Falco's recovery.

Can't see any ways to punish Falco's Phantasm without baiting it for a SH aerial/waft for the kill, this is REALLY ANNOYING. Don't try to punish with anything you have during the phantasm you might be good at prediction but it just will go through your move set (except for DSmash?), tried to Fsmash he didn't take the hit but I did and luckily I superarmored, tried to waft and got animation canceled, tried to Uair I got knocked down conclusion: bull**** move I love to have CG on this match so I can piss Falco's as he starts to piss me.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Lord Chair]

Last 2 posters clearly haven't read my post. edit: Masky acknowledges that, my bad.

Any move with normal priority (i.e. anything we have that's not Bite or grab) beats the second half of the teleport of Phantasm, so long as it's well timed. Fsmash does it, uair does it, so long as you stick to the (relatively small) timeframe. Lasting hitboxes perform this duty much better since they technically enlarge the timeframe you have, fsmash and uair are perfectly reasonable if you predict the exact timing of the Phantasm, but stick to the moves I have posted before if you don't have excessive MU experience (or you just fail at timing).

second half of the phantasm has a lot less priority

As I said the first half of the 'teleport' has NO priority. None, nothing, nada. Even jabs can beat it.

Bold was warranted since people tend not to read anything.

 

[Padô]

I read your post, in fact, i thought it was REALLY useful because there was a lot of information that I didn't know about. Just wanted to put some personal experience I have against this move so people who read my post and yours can conclude that they are timing wrongly their FSmash/Uair/Dair to punish the second half of the Phantasm. Maybe I'm getting this wrong because I'm approachingt from the air the most of the time so the Falco predicts where I'm landing and Phantasm it

I tried to bite 1 time a ledge-aimed Phantasm and me and the Falco felt from it then I just DJ Nair and gimped him, but when I tried to do this again I got spiked, now I know why....

 

[Lord Chair]

Yeah the Bite thing is interesting, but isn't really practical. Falco can just jump away from the stage and Phantasm back. Of course this wouldn't be possible if he lost his jump, but if Falco doesn't have a jump he should be dead by other means than Bite

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

phantasm seems to be off been covered pretty well anyone else got any ideas on what to discuss nexT?

 

[BOB SAGET!]

snakes grenades?

 

[Padô]

I'd REALLY like to discuss Ike's Jab, but people doens't take the character seriously.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'd REALLY like to discuss Ike's Jab, but people doens't take the character seriously.

Ike's jab ? Is that serious ?

 

[Overswarm]

I'd REALLY like to discuss Ike's Jab, but people doens't take the character seriously.

Hit up and towards him, then dair him. Or fart. Or air dodge to the ground. Or bike. Or anything really. Just SDI.

 

[Padô]

Thanks

So does someone else got good ideas?
I think Snake's Granades won't be such an important issue...

 

[Juno McGrath]

i seem to be having a problem with ROB in general.

forward air and down smash mostly.

 

[Lord Chair]

i seem to be having a problem with ROB in general.

forward air and down smash mostly.

Neither 2 of those moves should bother Wario too much :X

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Anyone got any topic suggestions ?

 

[Dynomite]

How to deal with DDD's Bair?
How to deal with Snake's DACUS?
How to deal with Diddy's Dash attack?
How to deal with marth's Fair/nair?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

How to deal with DDD's Bair?
How to deal with Snake's DACUS?
How to deal with Diddy's Dash attack?
How to deal with marth's Fair/nair?

How about snakes nair instead of his Dacus I can never seem to DI that properly.

 

[Gichan]

let's do that then.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

How about snakes nair instead of his Dacus I can never seem to DI that properly.

If he's going up, DI down.
If he's going down, DI up.
If he hits you on his peak, DI up.
In any situation, you can bike out of it INTO him.

Diddy's dash attack

DI up and through him.
Bite.

Snake's DACUS

If he's running at you (he shouldn't be?), bite.
Jab works. Canceled jab combos into grab/f-smash/fart.
Dair/fair/bair beats the mortar.

Dedede's bair

He should never be this close to you in the air. I hate running away, but it's true.

Also, don't know if this has been said, but G&W's bair-to-ground you can DI up then get a fair/uair/FART. Don't shield, take the hit for the DI.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

About that, you cannot Bite Falco out of it. In the latter part of the Phantasm the Bite and the Phantasm will technically cancel eachother out, which may come as a surprise to Falco but doesn't really work as well as, well, pretty much anything else.

Ah, but you get hit and he gets ground grabbed released. You bite him at the edge, he falls for 10 frames and you are in hit stun maybe 5. He doesn't get his jump back.
You are the advantage for gimping.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If he's going up, DI down.
If he's going down, DI up.
If he hits you on his peak, DI up.
In any situation, you can bike out of it INTO him.

What do you means bike out of it?