How to deal with/punish Discussing MK's Shuttleloop

[Gichan]

we can go much more into snake's nair, Like when they like to do it most, how to deal when they are sort of walling with it, how disjointed it is, how to avoid and punish, and a little more into SDI about it. We really should consider Snake's nair and discuss it better.

Kit Cal-N, appreciate the advice but we can't just simply discuss problems we have as Wario mains in sentences and move on.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

What do you means bike out of it?

If you are being hit by it, you can press over-B. The first few hits don't have enough hit-stun to prevent and do too little damage to knock you off your bike. You'll take about 8% then hit him with your bike.


A Snake can't wall with his nair. He has to full-hop it to get the auto-cancel, and if he doesn't he's going to land with a ton of lag. He can keep full-hopping nair, but he has better options.
The only times he really should be using it is if you're approaching with a full-hop attack from a distance or a grab release. You can bait a nair by full hopping towards him, but by double jumping, fast falling, or pulling away before it would connect. A double jump lets you punish with any aerial.
It's not very disjointed, but it will beat any aerial you throw at it from the front. It's got very little range on its back, bottom, or top. Because of it's range, you'll want to SDI through him.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

If he grabs you at low damage and decides to GR -> Nair you can bike out of it only taking one of the hits. That is sort of useless knowledge though, he has better options from a grab and once he tries it and you get out he wont do it again.

I grabbed some frame data from the Snake boards:
Hits on Frame:
First Kick: 10
Second Kick: 28 (if first connects)
Third Kick: 46 (if second and first connect)
Fourth Kick: 61 (if third, second, and first connect)
Duration: 67

I guess you should be able to get a waft in between any of these hits.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Can we like fair him out of nair ?

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the frame data. I'm almost positive we can't fair him, but the data suggests we can. I know you have to factor in hit stun, but there would need to be 13 frames of hitstun to keep you from fairing between the 1st and 2nd hit. That seems like a lot to me.

 

[PhantomX]

You CAN fair him, but not if you're being hit. It's hard to space as well b/c his kicks far outrange yours. If you can manage to get underneath him, you can always bite him out of it from below.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You CAN fair him, but not if you're being hit. It's hard to space as well b/c his kicks far outrange yours. If you can manage to get underneath him, you can always bite him out of it from below.

Really bite him out of nair ? Do we have to be directly below him for this to happen?

 

[PhantomX]

Yeah, you have to be below him, you can both wait for him to land in your mouth or sh/fh rising bite him out of it.

 

[smashkng]

Snake's nair doesn't auto cancel in full hop, it auto cancels in jump+quickly after double jump+nair

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Snake's nair doesn't auto cancel in full hop, it auto cancels in jump+quickly after double jump+nair

Do a full hop Nair as soon as you jump press A tell me how that works for you in the end.

 

[smashkng]

As said, you can hit with all kicks but still getting the 30 frame landing lag.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Can you uair him out of Nair if he likes recovering from a chypher and nairs back to stagE ?

 

[Gichan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpn8X9uhKIM

You could as it doesn't reach too much under him but you gotta be fast about it.

Snake's nair is very effective against Wario when he knows we are trying to approach from high up. If the Snake is nairing a lot and you happen to get hit by a few of them it is a sign that you have to change your patterns because he is really just reading you, very similar to a metaknight using fair to stop your high approaches. Kit did suggest an amazing approach to this and it is to bait the nair by approaching them with a full hop because they are waiting for that hop. So then save the double jump or move away and punish. That is a good way to solve that problem.

Or like PX said, we can move quickly behind them or under them and bite. depending on where you are located when they are coming. I usually go for bite but I have found that moving behind them as they fall and then nair is pretty effective.

Do not try to punish them after they naired if you are far away (and if they auto cancelled it). It looks like we could punish it but then we eat a forward tilt. That is why if we are thinking about SDIng the nair, we should always SDI to get behind them because we are just a bit apart from them and can punish it. If we SDI away, we do receive less damage, but we also put ourselves in a situation where we can't really punish it unless we dash attack (?).

Overall, we really just have to watch out for how disjointed it is. Watch that use of your double jump so you don't find yuorself hit by that nair. And try to see when they like to use it most like one example being what legendary asked. He probably notices a Snake player he plays who constantly nairs after recovery (quite common sometimes) and wants to know what to do about it. So exploit those patterns.

 

[toobusytocare]

Nair is easy LOL

if hes rising, SDI down then clap him

if hes falling, SDI up and waft, dair, or anything


usually you get the first case though


EDIT: oh shoot i missed the phantasm discussion :[
Nair, dsmash, and fsmash all interrupt phantasm easily enough, fsmash being a bit more difficult though

 

[Gichan]

Well it seems no one has much left to say to nair. We should move on then so this thread doesn't die again.
What next then? Back to Peach, maybe Sonic's ball thingy and constant cancelling. there were some suggestions the previous page.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Okay first page updated now we just need a new topic.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Maybe the grab release? Just general strategies to combat the GR. Which stages are helpful, where you hang around on said stages, different grab releases that can be escaped with bike (like Snakes Nair) etc.

I get grab released all day, has anyone tried doing that **** MikeHaze does to ICs? Where he screams at them.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No, you'd just make an *** of yourself and abuse the hospitality of whoever's hosting the tournament/running the venue. If someone did that at my tournament I'd DQ them for being an ***. Just play good and don't get grabbed

That's easier said than done at least for me that is.

 

[smashkng]

We should discuss a move of a low tier as well. Don't know, maybe Ike's fair, Yoshi's pivot grab, Samus' Zair or Ganon's uair.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

We should discuss a move of a low tier as well. Don't know, maybe Ike's fair, Yoshi's pivot grab, Samus' Zair or Ganon's uair.

I'm not feeling low tiers. I'd rather focus on high tiers or characters you're more likely to see in a tournament. Any match up knowledge you don't know or are can't get passed against a low tier can be solved by just running away.

 

[Gichan]

I like the idea of GR, becuase I did not know at all about the bike through snake's nair and i wanna know of any other secret ones. I also like the idea on discussing good stages against certain GRs. Like for example, if you cp a kirby to brinstar, if he grabs you on that slight hill he can GR to usmash. So you might want to consider that when cping that stage.

We could move on to a mid-low tier char that really throws warios off like something ZSS has or Sonic or even Yoshi, as long as it is a char you will likely see at tourney. Peach is a common one who gives a **** load of toruble.

I think an important discussion should be on how to approach Peach because she shuts down Wario pretty **** well and has priority over anything plus you have to be so careful cause if you get grabbed it's death as low as 97%. Even the turnips can be annoying.

 

[smashkng]

Maybe Luigi's air priority due how his aerials unfairly beat Wario's?

 

[Gichan]

Dayum, that's a good one to, Luigi cna be sooo annoying.

 

[Blue Rogue]

I SDI'd a Marth's usmash from a GR into the ground at kill %.
._. wat.

 

[Overswarm]

I SDI'd a Marth's usmash from a GR into the ground at kill %.
._. wat.

Remind me to show you next time we get together. You can SDI any move that doesn't send you directly vertical (due to DI, this means any move) and tech it. The timing is just too ridiculous to do it for the most part, and I believe you have to be in the air already for some moves.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

I SDI'd a Marth's usmash from a GR into the ground at kill %.
._. wat.

How is such an inhuman SDI possible? I can understand MKs Dsmash, but this just seems impossible.

 

[PhantomX]

Marth's upsmash is both slow and has a lot of hitstun, it's not that hard.

It would be ridiculous if say, it was Marth's utilt or something.

 

[toobusytocare]

Marth's upsmash is both slow and has a lot of hitstun, it's not that hard.

It would be ridiculous if say, it was Marth's utilt or something.

i try to SDI marths utilt into the ground every time

****s hard

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

What is the correct way to SDI something like that. I have no problem SDIing multihit moves and stuff, but do you hit down on the control and c-stick as many times as possible or just once, but correctly timed?

I feel like DMG is going to ignore the interview thread and just post here just to **** on my understanding of SDI (rightly so). That kid doesn't name search, he SDI searches.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Holy ****. I thought I had read a DI guide a long time ago, but the only part of my DI and momentum canceling that I'm doing correctly is the C-stick SDI. This is going to change a bunch of things for me.

 

[Gichan]

yo legendary just pick something.

 

[Juno McGrath]

lets talk about robs back air/ NAIR

 

[Gichan]

then let that be then.

 

[Padô]

Yoshi's Egg Plank and Pivot Grab.

**** Snapple good call.

 

[PhantomX]

How do we deal with/punish Brazilians?

 

[Padô]

How do we deal with/punish Brazilians?

Use complex english vocabulary to make them confused then report some infractions they made because they are flooding all topics with stupid commentaries.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

first page updated discuss Robs Bair/nair .

 

[Gichan]

Okay, ROB's nair is so **** annoying. But I find that fairs are so effective against it. If you predict them doing it, do a quick fair it'll hit before the nair hitbox comes out. Thing is with these moves is that there is a lot of starting lag, but almost no lag at the end of the move so you need to see if you can hit it before it hits you.

An effective way to play against ROB is to jump around the lasers and bite the gyro when far. As you get closer, throw random fairs to clash with their fair or to hit them if they try to nair If you see them using a lot of bairs just keep jumping around near them and hit where they are going to land with a dair or even a fair (even if you land on the ground non-cancelled, just hit them). The thing is, don't challenge the bair!! no point, just don't get hit by it so they don't use it anymore. I played Holy quite a bit, and as long as I don't get hit by his bair he starts to rely more on fair or nair and that is much easier to deal with.

the only thing I hate about nair is that I can't uthrow to uair because it seems to nair hitbox will ALWAYS come out before my uair, don't know how...