AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
That seems sound anything else?
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How to deal with/punish Discussing MK's Shuttleloop
- Thread starter AlMoStLeGeNdArY
- Start date
Gichan
Smash Champion
Yes, Wario does own ICs. I mean, if we get grabbed, well it happens. But overall, that is some good info, dair is beast against them. We could also easily apply pressure off stage with fairs.
But one thing Wario mains must try not to do, don't bike the blizzard, they are always short hopping and it will always go through the bike, then we get owned.
Things to watch out for;
SDI that squall to the left or right (depending on the direction it is coming), if one of them is squalling it is a set-up for a grab.
SDI the blizzard up as well since they may be able to grab you off the blizzard with the other climber.
SDI the ice block in a footstool chain grab to the opposite side of where the block is hitting, Wario will cover more distance on the ground therefore less chain time or even a chance to get out at high percents. Alt throws, you're ****ed., but Wario is one of those chars that are very hard to cg.
Watch for the dtilt near the edge, it sends you diagonally towards your death, lol, sucks to be hit by it.
Uair goes through all of our ****, don't even try to approach with dairs from above, trust me, in this matchup uair>Wario. Overall, their hammers have a **** load of priority, so just concentrate on aircamping or separating them.
Most of the time, when counterpicking, if you find that you cannot handle the ICs, counter to a gay stage like Brinstar or something, they will probably switch to a secondary (most likely MK, they all just seem to have one), but if you find you can handle, take them to something like BF or frigate where you can air camp easily and most importantly, make them stick to ICs.
What else...BF is preference based. Some Warios may have a harder time on BF then others, it all depends on how you can handle that uair. Platforms really help IC's uair.
Oh, and tires kinda suck in this matchup, their blizzard and iceblock get the tire out of the way easily. And attempting to pick up a bike when they are near is dangerous, it could lead to a grab.
This was an old post from Morphed Chaos' matchup guide. I was too lazy to type it again but this is still decent. I use to play with Ambrose all the **** time before he quit brawl so I know it pretty well.
Btw, when they desync, and you predict when they'll go for the pivot-iceblock to blizzard desync, it is a a free hit/waft. Don't camp too long, Wario can actually approach ICs a lot of the times.
Most said advice; when nana is going back to popo, free waft or fsmash.
But one thing Wario mains must try not to do, don't bike the blizzard, they are always short hopping and it will always go through the bike, then we get owned.
Things to watch out for;
SDI that squall to the left or right (depending on the direction it is coming), if one of them is squalling it is a set-up for a grab.
SDI the blizzard up as well since they may be able to grab you off the blizzard with the other climber.
SDI the ice block in a footstool chain grab to the opposite side of where the block is hitting, Wario will cover more distance on the ground therefore less chain time or even a chance to get out at high percents. Alt throws, you're ****ed., but Wario is one of those chars that are very hard to cg.
Watch for the dtilt near the edge, it sends you diagonally towards your death, lol, sucks to be hit by it.
Uair goes through all of our ****, don't even try to approach with dairs from above, trust me, in this matchup uair>Wario. Overall, their hammers have a **** load of priority, so just concentrate on aircamping or separating them.
Most of the time, when counterpicking, if you find that you cannot handle the ICs, counter to a gay stage like Brinstar or something, they will probably switch to a secondary (most likely MK, they all just seem to have one), but if you find you can handle, take them to something like BF or frigate where you can air camp easily and most importantly, make them stick to ICs.
What else...BF is preference based. Some Warios may have a harder time on BF then others, it all depends on how you can handle that uair. Platforms really help IC's uair.
Oh, and tires kinda suck in this matchup, their blizzard and iceblock get the tire out of the way easily. And attempting to pick up a bike when they are near is dangerous, it could lead to a grab.
This was an old post from Morphed Chaos' matchup guide. I was too lazy to type it again but this is still decent. I use to play with Ambrose all the **** time before he quit brawl so I know it pretty well.
Btw, when they desync, and you predict when they'll go for the pivot-iceblock to blizzard desync, it is a a free hit/waft. Don't camp too long, Wario can actually approach ICs a lot of the times.
Most said advice; when nana is going back to popo, free waft or fsmash.
toobusytocare
Smash Lord
I always SDI up to try and land on top of one of the ice blocks because it makes you instantly stand up.
also you can buffer struggles so if you know you're about to get grabbed, start struggling and you can break out out instantly. This is especially useful if they cant do the normal CG and have to hobble (footstool) CG, because hobbling is slow and in general bad.
Unfortunately all good IC can do the backthrow>dthrow CG on Wario :\
toobusytocare
Smash Lord
the blizzard definitely reflects/eliminates tires, but it light help otherwise....
Gichan
Smash Champion
It barely does though, only if you are pressuring them and just z-drop the tire so they dash into it or something.
And man! I did not know about SDI-ing up to land on top of the next one. Does that really ****ing work? ****!
And man! I did not know about SDI-ing up to land on top of the next one. Does that really ****ing work? ****!
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Alright cool thanks for the feedback and such. I'm not really sure what move to discuss but if anyone wants to pick a move just LMK and i'll put it in the first post.
smashkng
Smash Lord
The "turtle" of G&W now?
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Alright first post update with G&W turtle. .
Lord Chair
Smash Master
When spaced well on your shield, you will not be able to punish it. You can only try to predict what they are going to do next. Keep this in mind throughout the matchup as it counts for most of G&W's moves.
Don't use spotdodge as much against G&W, if at all. Most of his hitboxes, including bair, are lasting. So long as you keep moving you should be able to prevent getting hit by bair.
Of course you can SDI it and punish accordingly, but it takes practice.
It is also possible to try and trade hits by using either fsmash (SA frames of course) or ftilt, you'll be trading 14-19% with 3%, which is quite the nice trade-off.
Remember that the turtle's range is almost completely horizontal, with a slight downward curve. This means that you can still space around it with dair, uair and even a falling fair from a upwards diagonal approach.
Try not to punish the landing lag, whiffed turtles are still safe and can be used as a bait. Don't fall for it.
Tip: When the turtle is not spaced well you can shieldgrab between the last and second to last hit to prevent the chance (small though it may be) of getting shieldpoked by just that one last hit. Of course, you can also shieldgrab it just after the last hit if you're not sure on your timing capabilities.
Don't use spotdodge as much against G&W, if at all. Most of his hitboxes, including bair, are lasting. So long as you keep moving you should be able to prevent getting hit by bair.
Of course you can SDI it and punish accordingly, but it takes practice.
It is also possible to try and trade hits by using either fsmash (SA frames of course) or ftilt, you'll be trading 14-19% with 3%, which is quite the nice trade-off.
Remember that the turtle's range is almost completely horizontal, with a slight downward curve. This means that you can still space around it with dair, uair and even a falling fair from a upwards diagonal approach.
Try not to punish the landing lag, whiffed turtles are still safe and can be used as a bait. Don't fall for it.
Tip: When the turtle is not spaced well you can shieldgrab between the last and second to last hit to prevent the chance (small though it may be) of getting shieldpoked by just that one last hit. Of course, you can also shieldgrab it just after the last hit if you're not sure on your timing capabilities.
Padô
Smash Lord
The best to punish it is to predict the bair than use our aerial mobility to punish it, like jumping the attack and punish GWs lack of vertical hitbox with uair or nair, I'm using uairs since its 17% which is around 2/10 of a GWs stock.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I was wondering the same thing.
The way you have to SDI depends entirely on how they are moving as the bair hits. If they are approaching you with bair, you SDI towards/through them and up (usually they do falling bairs to capitalize on that ground hitbox it has that is super gay). If they are retreating it and it's spaced at the turtle's head, just back off or take that one hit, if they're rising, you want to SDI it down.
If they bair and don't autocancel it in the air and you SDI out you can waft/nair/upair w/o trouble.
If they bair and don't autocancel it in the air and you SDI out you can waft/nair/upair w/o trouble.
Gichan
Smash Champion
the rising bair always gets me cause I'm always too use to SDIng up.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Alright first post updated. IDK what else to discuss if you guys think of anything just LMK and i'll update the first post.
smashkng
Smash Lord
Kirby bair? I don't know it (I played Snake when I played against a good Kirby) because not too many people play Kirby but as of MorphedChaos' guide it is said it's an annoying move.
toobusytocare
Smash Lord
lets discus D3's bair.
Everything said about it should be able to be applied to Kirby's bair
or we could just do both at the same time since they are similar
Everything said about it should be able to be applied to Kirby's bair
or we could just do both at the same time since they are similar
smashkng
Smash Lord
Well, Falco, DK, Snake, and Wolf bair are also similar.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Alright i'll do Kirby's Bair since we already did something pertaining to d3.
Padô
Smash Lord
If Kirby is FFalling a Bair, UAir it.
If he is SH a Bair, Uair / Bair him.
This should take care of our problems with this lagless move.
I must remember that you can shield grab it too, but if the Kirby is pro enough he will land behind you.
Bites work since you come from above, so does Dair.
I don't think we need anymore than that.
If he is SH a Bair, Uair / Bair him.
This should take care of our problems with this lagless move.
I must remember that you can shield grab it too, but if the Kirby is pro enough he will land behind you.
Bites work since you come from above, so does Dair.
I don't think we need anymore than that.
toobusytocare
Smash Lord
yeah kirby bair isnt nearly as good as D3's.....
Humpy Thrashabout
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2009
- Messages
- 294
If the kirby spaces correctly you can't shield grab it. I also can't see being able to Uair through it because it's pretty disjointed and a good kirby always retreats it. It's a pretty effective WOP due to Wario's lack of range. The only things I've used to beat it are approaching from above with a full hopped aerial or stutter stepping a Fsmash and SAing his hitbox.
It definitely isn't as good as D3's, but it isn't as easy as shield grab/Uair. To me the key to beating the move isn't to actually beat the move, but to make them feel like they don't need to camp it. It's a lot like playing a ROB, they are capable of camping very well, but they only resort to hardcore camping when they are losing pretty bad.
Since I saw that thing that DMG posted about the delayed dash grab I've been thinking I could, from a dash, PS it then do the delay dash grab, but I haven't gotten to play my friend's kirby yet to try it. Will the ending of the dash animation happen when you PS?
It definitely isn't as good as D3's, but it isn't as easy as shield grab/Uair. To me the key to beating the move isn't to actually beat the move, but to make them feel like they don't need to camp it. It's a lot like playing a ROB, they are capable of camping very well, but they only resort to hardcore camping when they are losing pretty bad.
Since I saw that thing that DMG posted about the delayed dash grab I've been thinking I could, from a dash, PS it then do the delay dash grab, but I haven't gotten to play my friend's kirby yet to try it. Will the ending of the dash animation happen when you PS?
You can't get that little extra dash grab boost if you end the dash with a shield. You can powershield and grab/punish Kirby out of bair... best way is to just slowly push him towards the edge of the stage so he doesn't have as much room to maneuver safely.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
OMG masky contributing wow.You could also pivot grab his bair if he does it low enough... but that's just if you want to show off
First post update what next.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Masky winz the interwebz /thread =/.
toobusytocare
Smash Lord
peach bair wall LOL
although no one other than DMG or PX (maybe fiction) can contribute xD
although no one other than DMG or PX (maybe fiction) can contribute xD
Padô
Smash Lord
Pit's Nair brickwall
DDD Bair
Olimar's Pivot Grab
Peach's Bair
Wolf's Bair
MK's UpB
Lucario's Dair
TL Zair
many possibilites...
DDD Bair
Olimar's Pivot Grab
Peach's Bair
Wolf's Bair
MK's UpB
Lucario's Dair
TL Zair
many possibilites...
GOL | 482 | JSalt
The Folse Deity
I agree with Bassem: TL's bair/zair/projectiles, which is pretty much TL as a whole.
TL's Bair: I usually try to shield these, because if they hit your shield with one, that's a free Nair, Uair, or waft OoS. Kinda like Marth's fair: When they whiff in front of you, fair poke. Is there a certain direction we should SDI? I don't think we can do much until the 5th or 6th one.
TL's Zair: If you get hit by one of these, that means they can grab, Nair, or Zair you again. You want to get in close and shield grab.
TL's Projectiles: Arrows are easy to punish, just jump over them and hit them with whatever. The rest, I have no idea what to do about them...especially the boomerang. I jump into them all the time.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Since jNig started the convo I guess we do Tlink.
If they're hitting you with rising bairs and approaching, SDI down and through them. Weird, I know, but generally you always want to SDI in the opposite direction that a character is moving (it's why you SDI thorugh Diddy's Fsmashes and Snake's ftilts)
Padô
Smash Lord
About Zair I just shield it and Nair OoS. Don't try to shieldgrab cause it's impossible and you are getting a Nair in your face.
Bombs won't explode if you dair/fair/nair/uair em so they are not a big deal, the worst move is the Bair I was DIing it just like PX said, downwards and through TL, this should end his combo and maybe you'll be able to punish him with an Uair or chase him on his fall to the ground for a grab.
Arrows are easily punishable since they got a little delay to execute and they travel slowly making it easily to PS.
Just AirDodge his boomerang specially if TL is going after you. It sets you up to a Nair or a Fair/Bair. CAREFUL WHEN IT IS COMING BACK, I lost a lot of grabs because it got back and hit me while I was pummeling him so If you notice a boomerang coming back Fthrow him asap.
Bombs won't explode if you dair/fair/nair/uair em so they are not a big deal, the worst move is the Bair I was DIing it just like PX said, downwards and through TL, this should end his combo and maybe you'll be able to punish him with an Uair or chase him on his fall to the ground for a grab.
Arrows are easily punishable since they got a little delay to execute and they travel slowly making it easily to PS.
Just AirDodge his boomerang specially if TL is going after you. It sets you up to a Nair or a Fair/Bair. CAREFUL WHEN IT IS COMING BACK, I lost a lot of grabs because it got back and hit me while I was pummeling him so If you notice a boomerang coming back Fthrow him asap.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Yeah, if the rang is coming from behind you do a bthrow or dthrow, if it's coming from in front, fthrow and try to get it to where TL is swinging in front of you while you're fthrowing. The swing will make him catch the rang while still being thrown.
Humpy Thrashabout
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2009
- Messages
- 294
It's a weird thing, but I've lately been liking up-b OoS against bair. It has better priority than all of TL's moves except Dair (yes I tested it). It is especially good on BF where you can land on a platform above and cut down on the time to be punished. I've actually been able to camp that move a bit.
Haha, why take the risk? It's better to go for the guaranteed damage from bair than risk the possibility of messing up the fthrow and getting 0%.You can also fthrow them if the boomerang is coming from behind you... but that's only if you have enough skill