How is Pichu better than Mewtwo?

[Chis]

Mewtwo is better than Pichu, Kirby, Ness, and Bowser. I won't explain why unless you REALLY want me to.

I REALLY want you to tell us please :D

 

[TheLake]

take a character like Zelda, whose whole game revolves around landing fair or bair, has a dumb recovery, no combos/chains, is suuuuper slllowwww in every aspect of her game besides the fair and bair...there's no question mewtwo is better than zelda.

QUOTE]

Zelda kicks like anyone 3 times and they die. If she plays defensive she has upsmash out of shield and kick out of shield. Granted isnt the most elaborate way to kill somone but it gets the job done.

Mewtwo has squat

Kirbys recovery sucks

Mewtwos awful

Hes still extremley cool.

 

[Taj278]

"If" she can kick anyone around 70% near edge of stages with poor DI, then yes her sweet spotted predictable floaty forward and back airs are fine. Her extremely poor knock back and punishable down smash can't be used out of shield that easily. Up Smash... maybe.

Mewtwo has guaranteed finishers on all characters except fast fallers with a completely average ranged grab that seems slightly disjointed. Mewtwo actually has a couple of reasonable combo starters with Down Tilt and throws depending on the character's fall speed. If Mewtwo can get inside most characters, he naturally has a shield pressure game between low attacking down tilts and grab mix ups, on top of a DJC forward air to grab mix up, AND a slightly longer range confusion through shield that catches people off guard.

Mewtwo is big, but it doesn't matter most of the time, you just gotta space better. His size makes his neutral air really good for punishing poorly spaced aerials, people on platforms above you, and controlling where people decide to move away from you.

I wish I could make Mewtwo mid tier, but he's definitely low tier. I proved that Mewtwo is not "awful" I've beaten several big name players in tournament matches with Mewtwo. (Tournament: Chu Dat, Plank, King, Forward, Wobbles, to name a few. Friendlies: NEO, HugS, DaShizWiz, Wife to name a few.)

Pichu simply doesn't have the same options as Mewtwo. The only reason people really hold Pichu in a higher regard than Mewtwo is that Mewtwo can't be played with orthodox mind games. Pichu has a Shffl game, a strong Up Smash and chain grabs on spacies on FD. Mewtwo can't play like the majority of the cast. Mewtwo needs to simply be played very carefully and punish efficiently.

Pichu is the worst character in the game simply because his projectile is worth blocking, very low pressure and he hurts himself. Pichu hurts himself when using half of his good moves and recovers. Pichu is the absolute lightest character in the game with VERY LOW priority (Worse than Mewtwo), worst grab range, and uses nothing but FULL BODY ATTACKS. Aerials can only trade, especially with Pichu's low priority which means Pichu almost never comes out ahead. Pichu isn't even that fast, he only has quicker l-cancels and landing lag, but his run speed is actually pretty lack luster. Pichu also gets chain thrown and grab comboed by many high tier characters. Overall matchups against most characters are actually very bad. Pretty much Falcon and Falco are Pichu's best matchups against the High Tiers, and Falco is only a good match up on FD.

Mewtwo- Limited combos, but they are still very effective though. Mewtwo has an actual projectile that can pressure the opponent charged or uncharged. Mewtwo's shadow ball can pressure opponents even while it is being charged for shield pressure mix ups. Mewtwo can escape from most characters and is almost impossible to corner unless you are Falco, Fox, or Falcon, and to a lesser extent Sheik and Marth. Mewtwo's Teleport is invincible and coupled with a super double jump, has one of the best recoveries in the game. Mewtwo without a second jump is in trouble in some situations though. Mewtwo cannot be chain thrown by any character except for IC's and Marth at low %. Mewtwo's matchups are much better rounded against the higher tiered characters with the more difficult matchups being Fox, Sheik (Depending on play style), Falcon, and the Marios

TLDR: Zelda actually blows if you know she can't do anything else in the air.
Pichu= No priority, Lightest Weight, hurts himself, poor grab, difficult to land finishers.
Mewtwo = slightly better priority, little heavier, Big target but still mobile, Well rounded shield pressure game, UNORTHODOX.

If you want me to go into more detail, I can most definitely do so. You can ask me more specific questions/match ups by PMing me. I can also address why Mewtwo is better than Bowser, Kirby, Ness, and MAYBE Yoshi, but I haven't really looked into Yoshi as much as the other characters in the game. I can see Yoshi being very tricky if played insanely well though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ I love you.

^___^

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Taj is so amazing.

>w<

 

[The Enemy]

Taj=Godly
My favorite player by far

Wish he had more vids though...........

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

i don't know if you know or not, but the SBR updated the tier lists the other day,
and thanks to Taj's valient efforts to move Mewtwo up in the tier lists...
he is now 3rd worst character in the game, above kirby and Pichu (the new worst character)
WooHoo!

 

[Ndot]

Are ness, yoshi, and bowser actually better than mewtwo?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I think Ness and Bowser are.

I dunno about Yoshi.

But that might be because my Yoshi blows.

 

[TheWaft]

mewtwo isn't considered worse that pichu, he is just lower tier, which means less people use him.

 

[Taj278]

Keep in mind people, Mewtwo's placement in the tier list doesn't magically make Mewtwo a better character, it is based on what the character can actually do against most other characters and its viability in tournaments. Mewtwo went up in tier because Mewtwo's metagame has gotten to a point where someone playing Mewtwo at a high enough level can more favorably respond to more characters on more stages under more circumstances than a Pichu and Kirby player can.

I still think Mewtwo should be AT LEAST tied with Bowser for favorable match ups, but I suppose Bowser's playstyle can respond more consistently against more high tiered characters even though I think Bowser is way more susceptible to chain throwing and edgeguarding. Mewtwo takes too much time to understand to even be able to compete at a local tournament. I can at least one handed Bowser people at local tournaments, lol. All of Mewtwo's stats are just completely unorthodox. One of the widest characters with his tail as a hit box, a slower than average jumper, floaty, runs as fast as Samus, 3rd longest wave dash, 2nd/3rd highest vertical jumper, lighter than Roy, poor Shffl but can DJC, and two poorly designed special moves that I can still make work anyway. (Forward and Down B.)

 

[bahamutz69]

mewtwo is actually higher in tier than pichu now.

and arent the tiers based off tourny results?
if so, mewtwo (along with other lowT chars) is low because hes not easy to play at all.
with all the things taj mentioned above its very easy to see why ppl would stray away from him in tournys.
hes much harder to bring to a high level of play that some other chars like marth, im not saying marth is easy to play im just saying its not hard to use him in an amateur fashion and get good results.

mewtwo is awkwards and unwielding to play with, its just a fact but watch shadowclaw and you'll see even awkward psychic mice have ridiculous amounts of potential.

man i feel like a disney imagineer for that last part.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Mewtwo is a cat, actually.

Meow =3

EDIT: The newest tier list was based on a vote, by the way.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Taj.........................it's been a while...You owe me a basketball game...(AzOneTwo Step) =D

Anyway.. Taj, or any of the other Mewtwo players should watch and rate my Mewtwo... in the thread *revived mewtwo* *check it out*

You owe me pizza as well Taj...and maybe.. just maybe.. i'll box you ^^: lol but you gotta watch my vids ^^: lol and i'll buy you some more pizza or something.. idk lol

 

[Gigan X3]

It's good to see him higher on the list, now some ******* will stop calling him the worst character. (:

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I liked Mewtwo being the worst character though...

 

[KirbyKaze]

Taj boxes?

Cool.

Kage boxes too now.

Next major Melee tournament I say they box each other for money and evil character supremacy.

 

[jehonaker]

I have to agree completely with what Taj said...Mewtwo was (and is, to an extent) considered bad simply because of how different he plays in relation to the rest of Melee. He can't be played like anyone else can as a result of his problems.
I began to main Mewtwo when I started Melee again. I'm not the best player, but I really feel that my Mewtwo has a chance against anyone, not unlike my Yoshi in Brawl.
He's probably best described as a Brawl character in Melee (even though he didn't make Brawl's final roster...go figure).

Final question: what do Mewtwo's match-ups look like? I have a general idea, but I'd like some input from others.

 

[bahamutz69]

Mewtwo is a cat, actually.

Meow =3

EDIT: The newest tier list was based on a vote, by the way.

i can never make better points than you
he looks like a rat to me but i thought that would be insulting.

 

[JonaDiaper]

this answers the question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNpu4XOoUes&feature=related

in other words. hes not

 

[DelxDoom]

I'll disagree with Taj on Bowser; Bowser has better out of shield options (lol) and dies slower.
in general, yes I agree with the fact that Bowser would be more "standard" than Mewtwo, but there's like... nothing that Mewtwo can legitly do.

but yeah IMO Fortress/Fair/Mindgame Klaws > M2's throws/dtilt/mindgame everythings

 

[Taj278]

I understand your point, but you have to keep in mind that Mewtwo has better options in general that don't involve getting shield pressured so much. Bowser has an excellent shield game, but the primary reason why is because every character can put him there so easily. Maybe I'm wrong when I say Mewtwo is better than Bowser, but maybe it's because I see Mewtwo being more offensively capable with tech chases, reads, and less **** match ups. Bowser can retreat almost as well as Mewtwo, and has a decent ledge stall game with his Imba Ledge attacks and Yoshi Story really makes him a stronger character.

Unfortunately my style makes me tend to like FD more than other stages, and Pokemon Stadium a close second because of the lower ceilings, but it is double edged for M2. The thing that makes Mewtwo really shine is his mobility, and being able to get away. Bowser doesn't have many combos or combo starters, so his style is very hit and run, but it mostly comes from being more of a "turtle." Mewtwo plays hit and run, but can get combo starters, guaranteed finishers, and can move about the stage waiting for set ups instead of sitting and waiting for set ups.

I'm sorry if I'm not clear, I can try to clear it up if necessary. Gimpyfish also says that Bowser is better than Mewtwo, but perhaps I'm just biased because I had more success as Mewtwo than I have with Bowser. Bowser has the slowest jump on top of extra landing lag with a straight forward out of shield game while being able to 50/50 someone's shield with Forward Air or Forward B. It's almost like playing a worse version of Zelda which is also really bad.

 

[bahamutz69]

It's almost like playing a worse version of Zelda which is also really bad.

im sorry if i seem to be bringing this thread off topic, and please tell me if i am.
but i would like to know why you think what was stated above. i have next to no experience with her but ive been looking at her recently and i really think she is misplaces in the tiers. ill try not to get completely onto zelda, seeing this thread is about pichu and m2. but yea why?

 

[Taj278]

Zelda is basically played by forward and back air. Her other moves are borderline worthless. Forward smash is a decent mix up, Down smash is a weak "get off me" move, but overall her game revolves around double forward air/back air spam, which ultimately means she is easily read and her moves will get stale. They have great KO power, and are great obstacles when used against people that don't have much Zelda experience or even people that don't have experience in general.

 

[Wobbles]

Also, Bowser does not *really* have a mixup against shields from the air, because you can ALWAYS roll away and be completely safe regardless (unless you're against the ledge, in which case you can roll behind and he has to call it). You can punish f-air from shield but odds are he'll forward+b if you're on the ground, so it's typically not mixed up.

His up+b out of shield is generally super-punishable too.

1) Space attack against shield so initial hitbox cannot connect.
2) Wavedash out of shield and chase the up+b, crouch canceling if he tries to hit you.
3) Punish.

Same with his ledge attack. Bowser beneath 100 will almost always ledge-attack so you can CC or just shield it. Most people don't pay any attention though so they get caught off guard.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

^^You can ledge cancel (grabbing the ledge) the up-b though. But on stages without slanted edges you need to wait until the end of the fortress to be able to grab an edge, so you could punish him before that. (it's really hard to punish on YS)

I agree w/ m2 being better btw. Boozer has an amazing shield game, good range, high priority and good edgeguarding... So I can see why people say Bowser is better. But bowsers big problem is that he's so ****ing impossible to maneuver. His WD is stupidly slow, his jump is terrible in every way imaginable (terrible air maneuverability, jump comes out slow, abnormally much landing lag, etc) and he's so big that his DD hardly takes him anywhere (you won't be using it to avoid attacks much).

Bowser has many ways to capitalize on agressive playstyles w/ up-b out of shield and high prioirity tilts (tilting people out of their shffl's is a good strat). I think bowser can do better against aggressive playstyles then m2. (correct me if im wrong)

But if they just DD camp and go for grabs alot bowser gets destroyed (if gimpy or someone else who's really good with bowser disagrees, feel free to correct me). Same can't really be said for m2, he can keep up with it better then boozer can (good wd, decent dd, etc)

Basically, if you attack boozer he can capitalize on it fairly well so if you do he's not to bad. But if you just wait him out and camp he's terrible. (his approaching options are bad and lag absurdly much)
From my experience atleast, and I have a pretty good boozer. But you people (wobbles, taj) are FAR more experienced then me so feel free to correct

 

[TheLake]

I think bowser vs mewtwo is even as it gets

One it boils down to it mewtwos got the combos and can meteor bowser of the stage and **** with grabs

but bowser can **** almost all of mewtwos approaches and punish hardcore and edgeguard mewtwo really well.

Its even and a really fun matchup. Thats just my take.

Zelda definately ***** mewtwos and bowsers, smart zeldas know WHEN to kick and can **** with some other trixies. Though ive heard from darkmusician that taj 3 stocked his zelda O_O

 

[Taj278]

Mewtwo is also good against aggressive playstyles because people tend to make a lot more mistakes that way. I can't tell you how many Fox players that just love to be technical get pounded down because Mewtwo's height distorts their timing for l-cancels and shines, then they start getting easier to read too, so DA Dash grabs start working, and they just fall into my rhythm.

It's the Fox players that laser camp and wait for up throw up air that are more of a problem.

 

[AXE 09]

i think mewtwo is all around better than bowser

 

[bahamutz69]

i really dun think zelda revolves around her heels. im definatly not trying to say zelda is an awsome character but from what i can tell shes not as bad as ppl say.
she can chain grab with her uthrow and her dthrow (dthrow is pretty situational tho). her back throw can kill, not as well as mewtwo or ness but it can. her nair is rapetastic at gimps and her recovery is really good, but ill admit it can be tricky to use right. shes got a large amount of kill moves.
then again you are better than me at this game and have much more experience, im just voicing my thoughts.

 

[TheLake]

Nair has gimps.....? O_o

Teach...me!

 

[bahamutz69]

chyea breh.
from my experience it gimps spacies like a SHOVEL.
since zeldas nair his with many small attacks it leaves them interupted but without restoring there jump. you just drop off the ledge and hit them with one or two of the hits, it works alot like mewtwos nair.

 

[unwelc0med]

not anymore

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

just conpare every move bowser owns in side b and up b mew2 can have the others(think off and defence)