how far is the metagame?

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Some of you guys are making it sound like approaching is an auto lose.

Bad approaches get punished, good approaches are safe.

 

[cutter]

Some of you guys are making it sound like approaching is an auto lose.

Bad approaches get punished, good approaches are safe.

The thing is, there aren't exactly many truly safe approaches to begin with.

Remember when everyone used to rave about G&W's Bair and how it seemed to be virtually unpunishable? Now the attack can actually be unsafe on HIT, as you can quarter-circle DI out and hit G&W before his Bair even finishes due to the very low hitstun on multihit attacks.

That's just one example, but when you factor in powershielding, even the safest of approaches such as MK's Dair camping and slow Ftilt become not as great.

 

[rathy Aro]

Doesn't PSing make approached more viable as well? Seeing as you can ps their projectiles or whatever they're using to punish your approaching them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The thing is, there aren't exactly many truly safe approaches to begin with.

Remember when everyone used to rave about G&W's Bair and how it seemed to be virtually unpunishable? Now the attack can actually be unsafe on HIT, as you can quarter-circle DI out and hit G&W before his Bair even finishes due to the very low hitstun on multihit attacks.

That's just one example, but when you factor in powershielding, even the safest of approaches such as MK's Dair camping and slow Ftilt become not as great.

People finally used DI and SDI to get out of that, people claimed it wasn't safe for a while and Praxis proved it when he showed people how unsafe it was by DIing behind him and Bairing him. Multihits never were super safe.

If your opponent powershielded approaches under 10-9 frame attacks, it's more likely you were being too predictable with your approach.

Doesn't PSing make approached more viable as well? Seeing as you can ps their projectiles or whatever they're using to punish your approaching them.

This too.

 

[Dekar173]

Marth and a lot of characters have a new thing they can do that makes their movement much more versatile, allowing for better tech-chasing and faster (more offensive) gameplay in general.


I'll be showing it off at pound 4, not my discovery tbh, another NM player found it off/has been beasting with it lately. Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be a Seibrik scenario ;P

 

[yummynbeefy]

its brawl the metagame was complete when it was made

 

[TheManaLord]

its brawl there is no meta game its just a party game

 

[hyperhopper]

no, heck look at how crazy the tier list was, and how much it has changed


then

Top Tier ............................................ High Tier .........................Middle Tier ............. Low Tier
Meta Knight ..................................... Marth ..............................Toon Link .................. Lucas
Snake...................................................Wario ............................... Olimar ..................... Ness
King Dedede ...................................Lucario .................................. Fox ........................ Mario
Mr. Game and Watch.............Donkey Kong....................... Zelda.................Pokemon Trainer
Falco .......................................... Diddy Kong...............Zero Suit Samus ........................Samus
R.O.B. ............................................... Pikachu............................... Bowser .................... Yoshi
................................................... Ice Climbers ............................... Luigi ................. Sonic
..................................................... Kirby ................................. Peach ................ Jigglypuff
................................................. Pit ..................................... Ike .................... Ganondorf
............................................. Wolf ................................ Sheik ......................... Link
-................................................................................................................................ Captain Falcon


now

S: Meta Knight, Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy Kong, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Pikachu, Olimar, Ice Climbers, R.O.B., Kirby
B: Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Pit, Donkey Kong
C: Peach, Luigi, Fox, Wolf, Sonic, Sheik
D: Bowser, Zelda, Pokémon Trainer, Ike
E: Lucas, Mario, Ness, Yoshi, Samus
F: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf



tier lists not the same=metagame not the same

obviously you are stupid if you dont notice all the changes in metagame and how the game is progressing

 

[OFY]

how far is the meta game? how far is space?

You have too high expectations of Brawl. It's not anything you perceive it to be.

 

[KillerJawz]

Lets say that i am on 197% on my last stock. You just came out with a fresh stock. I decide to run away from you the entire rest of the game. Normally I would lose... but now i have a fairly high chance of making a comeback because we have to play sudden death...

Does that sound fair?

Who on earth would not be able to kill you at that %? Not all characters are good at running away you know o.o...

 

[JPOBS]

if they are both at one position, its not stalling. they just want to be at their own tactical position. all it woul dbe is them both STANDING STILL waiting for the other to move, and instead of a timer, make a rule, no more than 20 seconds stationary

then the next best strategy would be to stall for 19 seconds, move an inch, rinse, repeat :/

 

[hyperhopper]

ugh, then an honor system

no timer, but dont be a #$%^& and stall

 

[unsung-unit2291]

Why play for honor, when you can camp, and win money for it?

Money> morals in a video game.

 

[hyperhopper]

this is why IMO competitive games should be played to see who is the best, not for money, play the game cuz you like it, not cuz you're greedy

 

[theunabletable]

^Then I arbitrarily decree that in every single competitive sport (such as Football), the better players shouldn't try as hard so that the worse players have a chance at beating the better players, and don't do "gay (subjective and arbitrary)" strategies.

And it IS played to see who is best/smartest. Money is just more incentive to win so everyone tries as hard as they can and plays at the top of their game.

 

[TheManaLord]

camping is a legit strategy

except in brawl bc its all camping

 

[Taylor-Corn]

I hope brawls game play speeds up. Compared to melee, brawl is borrrringg to watch. Sorry.

 

[hyperhopper]

there are PLENTY OF EPIC BRAWLS!

random youtube vid, and poof look what i found

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_96kuaUJVo

 

[Ziiken]

^Then I arbitrarily decree that in every single competitive sport (such as Football), the better players shouldn't try as hard so that the worse players have a chance at beating the better players, and don't do "gay (subjective and arbitrary)" strategies.

And it IS played to see who is best/smartest. Money is just more incentive to win so everyone tries as hard as they can and plays at the top of their game.

This doesn't happen because most competitive sports are balanced and are made in a way that the better player, or better play caller wins.

Brawl is made in a way that overly defensive and gay gameplay is a viable option to winning.

On the other hand, taking away money would probably make brawl better, but some people would still play the same because they want to win

 

[theunabletable]

This doesn't happen because most competitive sports are balanced and are made in a way that the better player, or better play caller wins.

It's no different than in Brawl. The person who was smart enough to go MK and glide stall you out won. Thus you were outsmarted.

Brawl is made in a way that overly defensive and gay gameplay is a viable option to winning.

And? That's bad and makes the worst/less smart player win, why?

 

[TheManaLord]

because camping isn't a very fun competitive environment? every single good competitive game has relative balance.

this game is so lopsided and lacks a lot of things that make competition wholesome.

 

[theunabletable]

because camping isn't a very fun competitive environment?

That's your subjective opinion.

It's in no way a fact.

I actually find camping quite fun.

You may not find it fun, but in a game of camping it STILL shows who the best and smartest player was.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

there are PLENTY OF EPIC BRAWLS!

random youtube vid, and poof look what i found

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_96kuaUJVo

The DeDeDe was in his shield more than half the match and barely did a move that wasn't grab/bair

I'm not sure how that was exciting

 

[TheManaLord]

That's your subjective opinion.

It's in no way a fact.

I actually find camping quite fun.

You may not find it fun, but in a game of camping it STILL shows who the best and smartest player was.

LOL tons of people don't like camping / being camped are you serious bro LOL

i enjoy camping too but when gameplay is bad enough that camping can become the only viable strategy and such measures have been put into place to stop it... you gotta get the picture that this game just isnt cut out for it. but the hordes of casuals will keep it alive for a long time. it's a shame.

 

[theunabletable]

LOL tons of people don't like camping / being camped are you serious bro LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_people

i enjoy camping too but when gameplay is bad enough that camping can become the only viable strategy and such measures have been put into place to stop it... you gotta get the picture that this game just isnt cut out for it. but the hordes of casuals will keep it alive for a long time. it's a shame.

It isn't the only viable option yet. It's the best, but not the only viable one.

 

[hyperhopper]

The person who was smart enough to go MK and glide stall you out won. Thus you were outsmarted. ?

thats not being smart. thats just doing what is proven to win so that you can win in a boring way.

it shouldnt be that yo uhave to use certain tactics that are no fun to win

it should be regular COMBAT! Its shouldnt be about who will do boring things to win, it should be who fights the way the game was meant to be played and won, with acutal SKILL with their character, not where anybody with half a brain can just stall out.

 

[theunabletable]

thats not being smart.

Yeah it is. In competetive ANYTHING the smartest thing to do is use a tactic that wins effenciently and is easier (as in least room for error) than any other tactic.

It's using a tactic that works very well.

Thus it is very smart.

it shouldnt be that yo uhave to use certain tactics that are no fun to win

I say Snake's grenades aren't fun, so no one should use them.

it should be regular COMBAT! Its shouldnt be about who will do boring things to win, it should be who fights the way the game was meant to be played

The way the game is meant to be played? Oh snap we all need to play with all items on high on Hyrule then!

and won, with acutal SKILL with their character

How does stalling out not require skill? Your opponent was stupid enough to allow you to use such an effective strategy on their character, thus they deserved to lose.

not where anybody with half a brain can just stall out.

Anyone with half a brain can shut down a Ganondorf. So we should all play worse and use tactics that are significantly less effective and harder to do.

 

[Deeptuna]

In brawl, approaching is the most dangerous thing you can do in a competitive environment. This was picked up early by the smash community, and now, if there is to be any improvement to the metagame, this improvement will go towards the defensive or "gay" aspects that everyone (including me) despises. No matter how much you don't want to hear this, effective camping will improve your tournament rankings. Metaknight's "brokenness" used to lie solely in his insanely quick moves that would allow for a very aggressively playstyle, but now most of us know that it's pointless to be aggressive and risk total decimation rather than play it safe and have a better chance of victory.

In competitive brawl, hell in competitive anything, that's all that matters, victory, not honor or whether or not the game is "fun to watch". I await the discovery of something that will flip the metagame over on its back, but until then.....

 

[Tin Man]

I just hope the MK dittos dont take over, I hope more and more ways to counter MK get discovered.

 

[hyperhopper]

i just want there to be a revolutionary way to kill MK with most chars, or him to be banned, i mean, he doesnt even have a loosing matchup!

 

[Zankoku]

Revolutionary way to kill MK: Hit him with a strong undecayed attack when he is at a high %.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Revolutionary way to kill MK: Hit him with a strong undecayed attack when he is at a high %.

Ankoku, why are you giving away my secrets, nobody is supposed to know that.



You guys all heard nothing, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

 

[hyperhopper]

Revolutionary way to kill MK: Hit him with a strong undecayed attack when he is at a high %.

im taliking about some situational but effective 0-death combo

 

[Zankoku]

Grab Meta Knight with Ice Climbers.

 

[BSP]

i just want there to be a revolutionary way to kill MK with most chars, or him to be banned, i mean, he doesnt even have a loosing matchup!

I heard MK vs. GaW on Green Greens is in Game and Watch's favor. Too bad it's banned in most places.

 

[swordgard]

Revolutionary way to kill MK: Hit him with a strong undecayed attack when he is at a high %.

I call bull.

10bulls

 

[GHNeko]

I heard MK vs. GaW on Green Greens is in Game and Watch's favor. Too bad it's banned in most places.

And the conservative stage list strikes again!

Liberal Stages that might aid match ups against the top 3? NOT ON MY WATCH.

 

[Zankoku]

And then Meta Knight counterpicks you to Mansion. Oops.

 

[adumbrodeus]

And then Meta Knight counterpicks you to Mansion. Oops.

No, he counterpicks me to rainbow cruise cause I banned mansion.

 

[Zankoku]

I don't see why Green Greens would ever happen if you took stage-bans into account.