How do you play a Sheik as Marth?

[JrJet]

Sheik is one of my worst match ups. She is so much faster than Marth and can dominte the ground or air. I know because Sheik is my secondary and always choose her when facing a Marth. I know that I could go Sheik against Sheik, but I'm not a fan of dittos.
So any tips on how to better my game against Sheik would be awesome!

 

[TheIceCreamMan]

What i usually do is a counter into a combo. The counter will throw sheik off for a few frames. Thats enough time for a quick jab, or uptilt, to start your combo.

Also need to watch out for them chain grabs. :L What I usually do is DI, then tech roll. That's about the best thing I can do against it :S

 

[OverLord]

Abuse crouch cancel, dtilts and get the hell out of a grab.

Don't get grabbed and try to stay on the ground.

 

[ILM]

CC everything and fair. Personally, I like to mix in empty SH to dtilt, or DD and dtilt, and when I do eventually get it I try to read that into either further dtilts, a retreat out of IASA frames, or a read for a grab.

IMO dtilt is very important in the matchup, since it cuts off a lot of things Sheik can do on the approach.

 

[DualCats]

CC into grab is delicious. But if you spam crouch-cancelling or counters, you're just going to get grabbed a lot and that really sucks. Generally, you can out-range Sheik so a lot of this matchup is a game of delicate spacing. If you can bait grabs, that's lovely.

If you make your approach too obvious, you're just going to get grabbed. If you try to dash-dance camp, you'll probably end up eating needles. If you play too campy, that's just an opportunity for sheik to charge needles. Whereas it's a pretty poor idea to approach constantly, try to be in a position such that you can discourage Sheik from being able to charge/use needles effectively.

Fight Sheik towards the edge of the stage and seize any opportunity you can to get her off stage.

 

[Archangel]

As long as you don't get hit by a stupid tilt, You space properly, and you avoid getting grabbed. is beatable....the problem is doing all 3

 

[Jonas]

Ok you really need to grab Sheik. You don't **** her from grabs as much as she ***** you, but it's a start.
Do what you can to get that grab, but don't make your approach obvious.
Uthrow her and then try to Utilt. Watch her carefully, because if she double jumps, you don't want to follow her into the air. You can try to jump up at her (which lets you Uair her if she doesn't double jump), but don't use your second jump. It's just such a good position to be on the ground when Sheik is in the air and out of jumps

Crouch cancel is good (again, don't use it all the time or it gets predictable), Dtilt is also good (if she shields it, just dash away or something).

 

[Kal]

A lot of the advice in this topic is pretty bad. As a general rule, try and juggle Sheik. This is especially easy if she wastes her jump. Getting grabs is difficult, but you can bait with shuffled fairs from reasonable range, though you need to watch out for her dash attack. Crouch canceling should be used sparingly.

Fair to dtilt is a good combination if done from far enough away. This match-up will be a strong test of your ability to space properly; if you hit her shield with something safe that is also spaced well, you can often follow up with grabs and aerials (though you have to be constantly vigilant for noob rolls: if she rolls behind you, be careful).

The advice to always throw her off the edge is not very good. At higher percents you can do this, but at lower percents she tends to recover more often than not. Thus why I say that you should juggle her, which is incredibly easy, as her only downward attacking move is dair (which is pitiful). If you uthrow her at 0%, she can nair you. However, you can shield this, which allows for regrab. This turns into a typical guessing game, but having a read on your opponent will allow you to punish her better. At first it may be frustratingly difficult to juggle well, but as you practice it will become much easier. One key thing is to know when your juggle is over, and not to overexert yourself trying to continue it.

And of course, platforms work wonders when she is above you. Simply toss her onto a platform and abuse her with utilt, uair and fsmash. Keep in mind, however, that fsmash will not go through the platforms on Dreamland. It is interesting to note, though, that Marth's best stage against Sheik is probably FD, where his juggle is unavoidable, followed by Pokemon Stadium, where the juggle is avoidable only when the stage changes. This is due to the top platform in the remaining neutral stages, which inhibits his juggling abilities somewhat.

One final remark (final for now, at least): the best way to edgeguard Sheik is to tap forward at the last moment. This edgehogs (just not for as long as roll), but more importantly places you on the stage. If Sheik goes for the edge, she should die (keep in mind that the timing here is strict). If she lands on the stage, you can proceed with whatever method you would use to get her back off the stage (usually dthrow).

 

[KirbyKaze]

Throw her up and follow accordingly. Aim to put her offstage, and prioritize forcing her to poof onstage. Tech chasing her is stupid because your damage increments are tiny and her tech roll is massive. The exception is if you're putting her near the edge, because then you can cover multiple options with silliness and make for dumb reaction-based stuff, or even powerful 50-50s.

I think you should focus mainly on grabs if she's playing a ground game. I don't usually mind it when Marths jump a lot against me. But I'm strange so what do I know? I think D-tilt is also good against Sheik when she's grounded (but I think it should be used not so much compared to grab). Otherwise I find Marth's game pretty easy to play around if I'm grounded. I guess tipped Fair is always good but her body contortions are so weird I'd honestly say do that stuff sparingly... I do not usually get too bothered by Marth jumping.

Resist the urge to spam KO moves to try and do away with her. You will get grabbed and die for attempting such nonsense.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Kal your advise is good except for one thing: FD is not Marth's best stage vs Sheik. In fact, it's one of the worst. For one, Sheik can camp easily. Two, juggling is actually harder without platforms. And thirdly, for evidence, here is a list of matches where Pro Marths have lost to considerably less skilled Sheiks due to the Sheik player counter picking FD.

Ken vs Aesis
Ken vs DSF
Ken vs Omar
Taj vs Omar
M2K vs Over TriForce

I realize most of these matches are old, however there aren't really many examples to chose from. I really feel though that it's not a matchup that has improved over time. I think pretty much any of the neutrals are better than FD for Marth vs Sheik, especially Yoshi's.

 

[Beat!]

Err... while I do agree that M2K is better than Over, Over was definitely not "considerably less skilled" at the time.

 

[Kal]

How is it harder to juggle without platforms? She has no safehaven above you on which to land, so you simply chase her and follow with uairs. I also don't think she has a significantly easier a time camping on FD than any other stage.

 

[ILM]

I can see how platforms would benefit a Marth. Come to think of it, a lot of my kills in the matchup come from weak hit uair->land on platform->fsmash.

 

[OverLord]

FD is the best stage for Marth-Sheik. Hands down.


Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akmRtVTQFAA

 

[Niko45]

YS and FD are both very very good for Marth.

Platforms in general highly favor sheik as it gives her really good approaching options and general mixups/escapes. It also extends her punish game by being able to dthrow you on to a platform and then tech chase you for further grabs or dair pop ups into more aerials.

This makes FD great because she has no where to go once you get her above you and her approaches are really telegraphed, plus her low % punishes are heavily nerfed.

On the flipside, this means she'll usually opt to camp you and FD is huge so she'll be living forever. So it's not all free.

YS will give her platforms but the stage itself is so small and your sword is everywhere on that stage that it is pretty dangerous for her to use the platforms in general. Plus she can't camp you here and she'll die significantly earlier. She will consequently punish harder and kill you faster on YS too, however.

Personally I think YS is the best but both are really really good and are by far the best for Marth vs Sheik.

 

[-Sinister-]

Kal your advise is good except for one thing: FD is not Marth's best stage vs Sheik. In fact, it's one of the worst. For one, Sheik can camp easily. Two, juggling is actually harder without platforms. And thirdly, for evidence, here is a list of matches where Pro Marths have lost to considerably less skilled Sheiks due to the Sheik player counter picking FD.

Ken vs Aesis
Ken vs DSF
Ken vs Omar
Taj vs Omar
M2K vs Over TriForce

I realize most of these matches are old, however there aren't really many examples to chose from. I really feel though that it's not a matchup that has improved over time. I think pretty much any of the neutrals are better than FD for Marth vs Sheik, especially Yoshi's.

yoshi's is def good (obvious), but fd is definitely not the worst. and it's def easier to camp marth with plats.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Err... while I do agree that M2K is better than Over, Over was definitely not "considerably less skilled" at the time.

I wouldn't say so either, but the three stock balances it out.

I will say though that there are a lot of better Marth's than me (and even a better sheik) calling me on this one so I have to be wrong. This is a good thing though! I'm going to have to get some more practice vs sheik on FD so I can figure out what I'm doing wrong. My previous opinion was based mostly on having a strong recollection (for some odd reason) of pro Marth's losing to non pro Sheiks. It does appear though that most of the matches I'm remembering are really old and the matchup must have changed more than I realized. Either way, I'm glad to hear it's not as bad as I thought and can't wait to play tomorrow with my crew and test it out.

 

[Kal]

Most likely you're just not being patient enough with your juggles on FD. Unlike the stages with platforms, where the reaction needs to be quick, and where you can often respond with tippered fsmash, you have to patiently trudge around beneath Sheik, and attack at the appropriate time (which she helps decide by choosing falling speed and whether she attacks). However, once you have this down, the juggle is incredibly consistent, almost mechanical, with virtually no element of reading involved. This makes FD a brutally effective counterpick for Marth against Sheik.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Stay grounded on approaches and relentlessly juggle with Uthrow, Utilt, and Uairs.

Know how to DI against Sheik. If you don't know how to DI her Dthrow, tilts, and aerials then it becomes just awful for marth. DI her Dthrow away from her, doing so will limit her followup options to only Ftilt. Be sure to also DI the Ftilt away so that she won't be able to get another one afterwards. Just be sure to jump or Fair afterwards to stop a possible dash attack. Oh, also be sure to DI her Fair Up and Towards her so you won't die nearly as soon.

 

[Deleted member]

first things first, sheik vs marth is a bad match. outplaying your opponent to win is what a bad match is all about. so first things first:

marth:
- don't attack air to ground, and don't attack too much ground to ground. yes, you can attack.
- try to engage the opponent ground to air, or air to air.
- you generally want to do things the opponent can't do anything about. that is, don't do stupid or gimmicky things. marth doesn't need them.
- don't use nair. if you do it you'll want to l cancel, and if you're l canceling, she can grab you. just don't do it. actually, don't land near anyone at all if you can help it. vs any character. ever.

sheik:
- has issues attacking at a range. she's very good at dealing with nearby enemies. so don't be nearby too often. unless it's to kill her.
- is easy to edge guard. make her poof, land on stage, and then kill her. don't be afraid to edge guard her from 80 to 200. she's still helpless the whole time. press your advantage.

stages:
- go to FD first. go to whatever is comfortable second. ban gay stages.
general:
- don't forward throw or dash attack. pretend you're a good player even if you're not. don't do stupid or gimmicky things. marth doesn't need them.
- don't jump at sheik. **** it, you're marth, don't jump at anyone.
- don't nair. if you used nair, you probably jumped. see above rule.

basically your main strategy in this match is to DD grab or occasionally crouchgrab sheik and up throw. this is how you establish your advantage. if she attacks, DD grab it. if she throws needles, block. if she throws air needles...don't be 45 degrees forward/under her. if she jumps at you, fair her away. keep doing this until you can establish an advantage. juggle her, or if you can't, hit her off and force a recovery, and if you can't, put moves under her so she can't land. if she air dodges them, regrab and throw her back up. give her as little chance as possible to use the tools that are effective for her.

when she counterpicks you to a gay stage, CP to Fox. sheik would love to CP marth to gay stages where fox ***** sheik right back. even if you lose match 1, you can win 2 and 3 and take the set. fox is stupid easy especially on gay stages and there's really no excuse not to have a pocket fox at this point.

otherwise kirbykaze has the right idea.

edit: don't use nair. seriously. stop it.

 

[OverLord]

Nair is situational, so its use is not to ban from your play. A retreaving Nair can be good in some cases against Sheik.

And I don't know if counterpicking Fox is that great idea. If she brings you to RC or Brinstar, then I understand (but you are supposed to ban one of those), but on random stages, stay Marth. He's your main, and you should play him.


Also:

Oh, also be sure to DI her Fair Up and Towards her so you won't die nearly as soon.

This is not actually the best DI on her Fair. DI Up, and C-stick towards the stage, is much better.

 

[Deleted member]

Nair is situational, so its use is not to ban from your play. A retreaving Nair can be good in some cases against Sheik.

And I don't know if counterpicking Fox is that great idea. If she brings you to RC or Brinstar, then I understand (but you are supposed to ban one of those), but on random stages, stay Marth. He's your main, and you should play him.

No. don't ever nair. if you nair you're either dead or you got away with it because your opponent is bad. it has effectively no range vs sheik and doesn't do you any favors and makes you more venerable than any other move except maybe counter.

Not taking the best option to get you to win in a tournament is scrub play. If you ban KJ64 and you get CPed to RC would you stay marth? if so you deserve to lose and no one should be taking your advice. until or if the MBR changes the stage list, it's just a bad idea.

seriously. don't nair.

 

[OverLord]

In Europe we play just on Neutral.

Here in Italy we have some CPs, but I'd ban RC, and go Marth on KJ64, because it's winnable by all means there.

My point is mostly that it's not that great of an advice telling someone in the Marth board to change character to win a MU. I don't think it's the point of giving advices in a MU to change that MU completely.



And also, you think Ice's Sheik is bad..?

Nair is not to avoid completely, just know when to use it. I guess you don't know when.

 

[Kal]

Yeah, Nair is certainly not a bad move. It simply requires some care against Sheik. The fact that it can be autocanceled actually makes it a very good move for baiting.

 

[Deleted member]

In Europe we play just on Neutral.

Here in Italy we have some CPs, but I'd ban RC, and go Marth on KJ64, because it's winnable by all means there.

My point is mostly that it's not that great of an advice telling someone in the Marth board to change character to win a MU. I don't think it's the point of giving advices in a MU to change that MU completely.



And also, you think Ice's Sheik is bad..?

Nair is not to avoid completely, just know when to use it. I guess you don't know when.

Marth sucks *** on DL64 because his recovery is screwed so hard, edge guarding is way harder, and crouching opponents in the middle are hard to deal with because most of marth's moves start high and end low.

In europe, the stages favor you but having a meteorable dair pretty much negates that advantage. something like 85%+ of smashboards is US, so let's assume US rules for now. lucky you though. i don't think it's reasonable right now to be a "marth only" player. he sucks on gay stages too much.

marth has no business using nair vs sheik. you are only asking to get *****. if you want to bait sheik (baiting is the only somewhat defensible argument for nair so far) just stick to DD camping because sheik has super limited approaches. there is literally no good reason to ever use nair vs sheik.

edit:

Nair is not to avoid completely, just know when to use it. I guess you don't know when.

I know when to use it. Never. Don't act condescending when you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[JrJet]

Can't we all just get along?

 

[OverLord]

I'll act condescending 'till you stop to think your argument is the only valid and reasonable.

Nair CAN be used in the MU. The fact that you prefer not to, doesn't make it the only truth.
I prefer to know ALL of my tools, and use them whenever I think it's better.

Obviously Marth has a worst time on KJ64, but it's definitely winnable there. Trust me.
Dair not being a spike is not much of a problem, there are lots of ways to get the job done anyway.


And also, it's your choice to change character on a CP, I'm not saying not to, I'm just saying that is not an advice for the Marth-Sheik MU to say "well switch to Fox, he *****".

 

[Kal]

Intuition, how are you going to accuse OverLord of acting condescending when your response is just as bad? Don't trivialize his response (which is actually correct; nair has its uses against Sheik) just because you personally think it is useless. It's hardly as obvious as you pretend it to be, and Marth's nairs are essentiall to classic Marth combos across the stage. Further, when spaced properly, it makes for strong shield pressure (although, against Sheik, one needs to be wary of noob rolls). You can also pivot a nair as a response to a variety of things. I would agree however, that, in general, until you're very familiar with when Marth's nair can be used, to avoid using it at all, because the timing on using it against Sheik is usually quite strict.

And you missed the point entirely when he said that it's not helpful to suggest that he play someone else; this is the Marth board. He did not ask "should I play a second character?" He asked how to work on a particular Marth matchup.

 

[SpeedyJ]

Spam forward smash. Works every time.

I always like to take the Sheik to stages with platforms that you can F-Smash through. Yoshi's Story and Battlefield, but not FoD. The moving platforms mess up my combos. Final Destination imo is an average stage but I personally really like the stage so I like playing here.

Also, as been mentioned, the grab game is extremely important here (I guess like with any MU...) grab and then U-throw -> U-Air or U-Tilt and when next to the edge, throw her off and F-Smash.

Also watch out for the needles and nasty edge guarding. Be cautious when recovering to not throw out side-Bs just for the sake of it or f-airs because she'll probably punish you for it.

Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[Beat!]

"Spam forward smash"? I can't see that working against anything but beginner Sheiks who don't know how to WD OOS.

 

[SpeedyJ]

"Spam forward smash"? I can't see that working against anything but beginner Sheiks who don't know how to WD OOS.

I was joking. It will get you punished in high level play. But tipper forward smashes to punish are good because it will probably get her off stage and you can edge guard her.

 

[Beat!]

Lol I was on my phone and didn't see the smiley. >_> My bad

 

[JrJet]

Quick question, how do you guys play any MU on FD? Idk why but it's easily my worst stage. I just can't seem to get comfortable there... Any tips?

 

[Kal]

In most cases, you will do just as well on FD as any other stage by virtue of Marth's juggle. The exceptions to this (off the top of my head) are C. Falcon and Ganondorf: C. Falcon just does really well on FD, and Ganondorf actually just does better against Marth when there aren't platforms.

However, in many cases the approach game will be noticeably harder, as you will not have platforms as an avenue to avoid outsmarting your opponent. On FD, you won't have platforms to try and tech on, so any punishment will hit even harder. Keep this in mind, but don't let it lull you into thinking it's ok to use these things on stages where the punishment is less harsh.

General strategy is to try and bait, and to space aerials properly as an approach. Things like double-fair and non-fast-fallen (what a mouthful) aerials are canonically terrible, and will get you punished. These things should only be used for combos. Marth has a variety of safe options, and, in general, safe options are the ones which require the least commitment (and this is the reason Sheik seems so ****ing unfair to Marth; most of her moves have very little startup or ending lag, hence she doesn't really commit to anything). These moves are shffled fair, autocanceled nair (careful with this one, however) and dtilt. It is these commitment-less moves which you should primarily use for baiting.

Against most characters, you should also dash dance camp in order to bait. However, keep in mind that, against faster characters, you will need to do more. Dash dance camping is useless if Falcon just runs up and hits you and you can't run away in time. Solutions to this include pivoting (or simply turning around) fairs or nairs and pivoting fsmash.

Now, the above is not as important as what's to come: Marth does well on FD generally because of his juggle. In other words, while the approach is harder, in most cases he tends to get payed off a great deal more for successfully approaching. There are exceptions (Falcon being the most obvious one, and several are open for debate at the very least), but generally you should find yourself doing really disgusting juggle combos to your friends and family whenever they **** anything up.

Against Fox and Falco, you should memorize the chaingrab. At 0% you have to fthrow Falco, and he can buffer a roll (I think; I'll need to look into the frame data on this one), but afterwards you can proceed with standard uthrow fare. Against Fox you can start the uthrow chaingrab from 0%. At around 20% you will need to start pivoting grabs to do it successfully (if the opponent does not slight DI or try to shine you, it's not necessary, but do it anyway). At around 30% or so you need to start throwing in uairs and utilts. This entire paragraph could be off, however, so I wouldn't take it as absolute truth. Lots of players are much better at the chaingrab than I am, and to an extent you have to learn to do it through practice.

Against Sheik, I've summarized something of a strategy above. FD is unique in that her needles can screw with you a bit harder, but it's more than made up for by virtue of his juggle. Sheik can't do anything to Marth while being juggled because her only attacks to escape are nair and dair, neither of which hinders Marth's juggle in the least.

Against Falcon you should find yourself struggling a bit, but overall the matchup shouldn't be too much harder than on another neutral. You have to watch out for retreating nairs and dash dance camping, and in this regard Falcon really gives Marth a hard time. As far as juggling, it's about the same as anyone else, except Falcon has a dair which really makes Marth's juggle difficult to execute properly. On occasion (or frequently, depending on your juggling skill) you will get hit by Falcon's dair while juggling. Combine this with Falcon's falling speed and you realize that while juggling you need to be extremely attentive. Sometimes you will just have to accept that you have not uaired early enough and simply shield the forthcoming dair.

Ganon is a very straightforward matchup. Juggles work, but actually aren't necessary. Space your **** against him and you'll be fine. In a similar vein to Falcon, his dair can ruin your juggles, but his falling speed is so slow that it won't be an issue (although his dair has a larger hitbox, so you will need to learn the appropriate spacing).

For the remaining cast members, it suffices to apply strategies to the matchup and tweak them with the stage-specific information mentioned above. If there's anything else I can add, feel free to ask. And of course, if anyone sees an error in my post or disagrees with something, feel free to mention it.

 

[Deleted member]

Intuition, how are you going to accuse OverLord of acting condescending when your response is just as bad? Don't trivialize his response (which is actually correct; nair has its uses against Sheik) just because you personally think it is useless. It's hardly as obvious as you pretend it to be, and Marth's nairs are essentiall to classic Marth combos across the stage. Further, when spaced properly, it makes for strong shield pressure (although, against Sheik, one needs to be wary of noob rolls). You can also pivot a nair as a response to a variety of things. I would agree however, that, in general, until you're very familiar with when Marth's nair can be used, to avoid using it at all, because the timing on using it against Sheik is usually quite strict.

And you missed the point entirely when he said that it's not helpful to suggest that he play someone else; this is the Marth board. He did not ask "should I play a second character?" He asked how to work on a particular Marth matchup.

Nair has exactly one use against sheik. I spent much of last night looking for one. If marth is near the edge, and sheik is on the edge, and sheik comes up with a fair/nair and spaces poorly, and marth blocks it (so you both ****ed up, sheik on spacing and marth for blocking ever) then you can SH nair OOS and hit her while you're both in the air. At any other time, nair is strictly inferior to some other option that marth has for the MU.

Marth has no business doing "shield pressure". None of his moves stay out and only the tip stuns the shield at all and you can't really layer shield stun very well at all. Similarly, Marth does not want to play to his combos in this match up. Marth wants to establish a positional advantage of some kind (see: upthrow) and he wants to maintain it until sheik dies regardless of combos. As soon as you take away sheik's ideal tools in this match-up, it's not that bad of a match anymore!

Even if I tell you how to beat sheik with marth on neutrals, marth still faces a REALLY hard match on the CP. you can offer "advice" for it but it's near meaningless because the match gets substantially worse. switching to fox is better than an auto-loss. take your pick.

If you want to nair at people, and do nair combos and shield pressure, you should already be playing fox. fox's nair makes sheik combo practice and does everything that you're already asking for. if you don't know how to play marth then at least take the advice from someone who does. marth has absolutely no business using nair vs sheik. it's just bad.

 

[Kal]

If you tip a shield with Marths nair, it allows for a grab follow up. And to suggest that Marth doesn't want to combo in that match-up is a point you've only brought up and left alone; in general, Marth wants to juggle Sheik. This is true. However, given an opportunity (if, for example, Marth hits Sheik with a tippered fair) there's no reason not to proceed with the classic aerial-combo across the stage, which includes nair.

And, to clarify, when I say "shield pressure" I should really just say "pressure." Tippered nair on shield puts pressure on the opponent which forces them to act. This leads to superior positioning for Marth. I'm not suggesting that Marth should be breaking people's shields, but his superior range gives him a versatile attack on some characters' shields, which forces them to make mistakes.

And once again, you've missed the point of the question entirely. It's not helpful to suggest that he play someone else. Just stop suggesting it. The guy wants to know the way to play Marth vs. Sheik properly. He's not asking for more general advice, so stop giving it.

I'm also going to provide one more example of where I find nair useful: when you hit someone's shield with it (obviously, you need to tipper), then run away and pivot a tippered fsmash. Unless they roll, this is borderline unpunishable and, in many cases, the opponent will drop his shield causing him to get fsmashed. This can be done with fair as well, and is probably safer, but also stuns the shield for less.

But honestly, what's bothersome is the obnoxious way you're proclaiming one of Marth's most versatile moves to be useless, and providing no real explanation outside of simply stating that he has better options. You're entitled to think this, but I see no reason to act like your view here is tautologically true; it's hardly self-evident that there is a better move in every situation one would think to use nair in this matchup.

 

[OverLord]

And of course, if anyone sees an error in my post or disagrees with something, feel free to mention it.

I agree with most, but I'd say that FD is best stage against Ganon :O
You can control better and be baited less, and juggling is obviously good as you already said, 'cause the lack of platforms.

Even Kage banned it against me, and I definitely wasn't that threat to him xD

 

[Deleted member]

if you tip a shield with marth's nair i suspect something is wrong with the sheik. sheik is all about forcing marth to approach because his approaches are bad, so the ideal sheik either runs up and blocks to bait something (somehwat risky) or sits just outside of marth's plausible range waiting for something to abuse. like landing lag. from an aerial. like nair.

marth should obviously take any free juggles, but whether they layer stun to form a "Combo" is irrelevant. marth wants to keep sheik in the air and helpless, and if that means following up immediately, fine. but it should be totally independent or cohesive from/to the primary strategy. there are times when you would stop a combo to keep sheik helpless, and ultimately that is more important.

nair, like all other marth aerials, should only be performed when you are both in the air. attacking from the air to a grounded opponent is marth's weakest aspect by far and should generally be avoided whenever possible. i agree that marth should be playing to his biggest advantage of range, and nair is simply not that move. at any point you nair into a grounded opponent, you should get killed for it. at any point you nair another aerial sheik, you could have done something better. it's just no good.

nair is a good move, just not against sheik. sheik absolutely feeds off of over-extension, and nair by default leaves you open unnecessarily. you're either going into sheik's range to compensate for nair's relative lack of range, or you're being "safe" by just throwing it out with no intent to hit and giving yourself very abusable landing lag. if you wanted to "tip the shield" you'd just be a good player and either FF fair or just not do it at all. marth really shouldn't be landing next to anyone with landing lag in the first place, but choosing the move with the least range makes no sense to me.

 

[Kal]

Are you aware that nair auto-cancels if done correctly? As in there are 4 frames of landing lag, which is rather minimal. Your entire argument seems dependent on the notion that Marth's nair has more landing lag than his fair, which is not true if the nair is auto-canceled. The points you've made about the range are legitimate, although I wouldn't say it's fair to suggest that the Sheik is just bad if you can tip her shield with nair.

I agree with most, but I'd say that FD is best stage against Ganon :O
You can control better and be baited less, and juggling is obviously good as you already said, 'cause the lack of platforms.

Even Kage banned it against me, and I definitely wasn't that threat to him xD

This could be true. The notion that Ganon is worse against Marth when platforms are present is something I was taught a few years back by a mediocre Ganon player, so it's not something I would argue to the ground. It just seems to me that Ganon's platform game is so much worse than Marth's that platforms would cause Ganon to get thoroughly ***** by Marth.

 

[OverLord]

From my experience, platforms allow Ganon to do some bait shenanigans and waveland stuff that make him quicker, and stops some of the Marth's jugglings.

YS can be good, but you are dead in like 3 moves and I think you have to play mostly a grab game to shut down the B-airs baiting and his huge range. I feel like he gains control easier than in other stages. (but it seems Mango's Marth does not agree xD)

On PS, BF and FoD i feel like it's kinda even, maybe I should try more on FoD to see how it goes, I feel like in theory it could be good, like on YS but where you live more and control the stage better.

On DL, well, I don't know, so much space for Ganon plus platforms for wavelands shenanigans. I really don't feel comfy there, and he lives forever. But better go here than YS IMO.

FD then, shuts down automatically all that Ganon can do, leaving just B-airing and double jumping. You need one throw or an Utilt/Uair, and you can juggle 'til tomorrow's sunset. You can keep a wall in front of you, that if good spaced can be very tough for Ganon to break. And if you feel like you can also tech-chase like a as***le.

I'd go FD forever I guess.