D
Deleted member
Guest
ganon LOVES platforms vs marth. even if marth is better than ganon at using platforms, it also gives him some way to escape marth's bull****. ganon has no such answer without them.
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How do you play a Sheik as Marth?
- Thread starter JrJet
- Start date
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Uthrow, they will jump, follow them. Fthrow>WD>Fsmash (If they tech away, they usually do)
!!!RM!!!
Smash Journeyman
Keep tech-chases going as long as you feel comfortable. The longer you tech-chase, the more likely he'll roll to the edge and you can Fthrow him off into ****.
Van.
Smash Ace
lmao wut? overs best win in the US was linguini, and it was sheik-ganon. M2K was still indisputably top 4 in the world at this point. Definently a massive skill gap.
Also I always thought it was more efficient to wait until the sheik commits to poofing onstage then ledgedashing on, fastwalking behind her and taking a non-tipper f-smash. Especially when you are over 100% do these stand-up/ roll shenanigans seem implausible.
-Sinister-
Smash Ace
well if the up-b is going to hit you, you have to stand or do something to get invincibility
Van.
Smash Ace
^Oh, I get what you're saying now. I still think ledgedashing is the best option when you can do it safely tho
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Crouch Canceling especially psuedo Crouch Canceling, should be used as often as it's applicable. This prevent's Sheik from doing dash attacks or poorly spaced tilts/jabs/aerials (cept fair) till reasonable percents. Don't know why you would think otherwise.
True, but at the same time false. You can't really bait Sheik except for one situation which is being just inside dash attack range and auto canceling the nair while DI'ing backwards. Sad story is, it's still possible to be grabbed by Sheiks who know how to use dash attack canceled grabs. ANY other possible range is either they are dumb for trying to approach and give you a baited grab, or they will dash attack your feet while psuedo CCing it and comboing you off it.
Nair has two definable uses in the matchup where it actually works pretty well. One is if you dthrow off to edgehog you can immediately ledgehop nair if you think they will try to upB/doublejump immediately. This still works exceedingly well and for some reason has not been used that much. This is simply a guess in a guessable situation, and will be safe from retaliation as if Sheik drops low and regrabs you can simply dash away from the ledge.
The other use is when Sheik is on the edge trying to get back on. Doesn't matter what she does, waveland on/ledgehop/roll/getup. Spaced dtilt to sh DI'd back autocanceled nair will safely cover multiple options. That Sheik can do nothing about, and will catch any attempt to get up and immediately roll away from the edge.
Niko45
Smash Master
Trying to bait with nair is really gimmicky and good players will destroy that. Passive nairing just to occupy space isn't that great either.
Overshot nair is amazing against sheik.
Overshot nair is amazing against sheik.
D
Deleted member
Guest
1 you would be better with upair instead.
2 a proper WD off the edge is still incincible long enough for her to use it. a tighter sheik will trade or get past you.
Zivilyn Bane
Smash Master
I would just like to point to a set that is possibly one of M2Ks strongest sets he's ever played, vs PP at G6 2 where he uses several baiting and spacing nairs through the entire set (not against sheik, but against spacies which some ppl consider worse).
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=300236
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=300236
OverLord
Smash Ace
1. It depends on what you want to do, Nair is gonna send the Sheik again off stage directly, while Uair can open to a flashy juggle or to a grab. Since the outcomes are different, you can't say Uair is better overall, for it depends on what result you want to reach.
2. No, if Sheik do a ledge dash trying to keep invincibility to pass right through Marth, she's going to be hit by the Nair. Retreating Nair covers most of Sheik's options from the ledge.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,974
What is pseudo Crouch Canceling? CC should be used sparingly because it's not something to become dependent on; good Sheiks know not to use meager moves at lower percents, and trying to CC too often will result in you getting grabbed. Also, dsmash sort of eats through attempted Crouch Cancels, save at really low percents.
Niko45
Smash Master
Sheik can invincible ftilt coming up from the ledge pretty easily. I'm pretty sure retreat nair doesn't cover that. 
You gotta back the **** up when sheik gets the ledge. I basically just try to space a dtilt at the edge of where her waveland would end, or I'll also do *nothing* and just wait for her to do something else after she's gotten up that I can hopefully react to.
You gotta back the **** up when sheik gets the ledge. I basically just try to space a dtilt at the edge of where her waveland would end, or I'll also do *nothing* and just wait for her to do something else after she's gotten up that I can hopefully react to.
Beat!
Smash Master
Umbreon clearly said that he thought nair was a good move, just not against Sheik.
Who the hell considers spacies worse than Sheik?
OverLord
Smash Ace
I thought about that, and usually if the Nair is spaced right it should at least trade, BUT I'm not sure about this one and I'll check it out.Sheik can invincible ftilt coming up from the ledge pretty easily. I'm pretty sure retreat nair doesn't cover that.
D
Deleted member
Guest
that's the point of interest though. i think we can all agree that marth does NOT want to trade with sheik as a generalized rule, especially for any instance that has marth in the air and sheik on the ground. marth clearly handles being hit by combos very poorly.
the really fun situation is when sheik comes up from the ledge invincible such that she's right on the edge instead of actually going in with the WD. I see some of the better CF players do this more than anything but it's a great strategy overall anyway. i can't see a marth player doing a nair that close to the edge, even tipped. getting too close to a sheik on the edge gives the sheik a chance to vanish stall a few times to look for a chance to get past you and you can get hit by vanish or a good old fashioned sheik slap. anyway, coming up invincible like that sets up sheik for an invincible dash attack, which is imo considerably harder to DI on reaction than say ftilt.
i do think marth's nair is a great move, particularly against other general midweights for lengthy combos. it's just a really, really bad idea against sheik, and bad enough that i can safely make a nebulous statement. it is unfortunate for marth as a character that he has to focus entirely on removing sheik's tools by keeping her in a bad position constantly in this MU so combos really only matter when you get a "free" one. but i do think he has the tools to do it so long as they are used correctly.
edit: you guys are aware that sheik can hold down in the duration of a move like ftilt, and if you hit her she's still "crouching" right? she can also light shield out of crouch and effectively cover all possible chances of shield stabbing from marth if you've made it clear that you have no intention of grabbing her. you have to get around her shield, her CC, put her in the air, and further negate her ability to defend herself so well, because as long as she's on the ground in this match, you ARE at a disadvantage. you have to throw her up, there's no other way around it. and if you found one, you either got lucky or you were better than that sheik player to begin with.
the really fun situation is when sheik comes up from the ledge invincible such that she's right on the edge instead of actually going in with the WD. I see some of the better CF players do this more than anything but it's a great strategy overall anyway. i can't see a marth player doing a nair that close to the edge, even tipped. getting too close to a sheik on the edge gives the sheik a chance to vanish stall a few times to look for a chance to get past you and you can get hit by vanish or a good old fashioned sheik slap. anyway, coming up invincible like that sets up sheik for an invincible dash attack, which is imo considerably harder to DI on reaction than say ftilt.
yup. make that ***** poof.
i do think marth's nair is a great move, particularly against other general midweights for lengthy combos. it's just a really, really bad idea against sheik, and bad enough that i can safely make a nebulous statement. it is unfortunate for marth as a character that he has to focus entirely on removing sheik's tools by keeping her in a bad position constantly in this MU so combos really only matter when you get a "free" one. but i do think he has the tools to do it so long as they are used correctly.
edit: you guys are aware that sheik can hold down in the duration of a move like ftilt, and if you hit her she's still "crouching" right? she can also light shield out of crouch and effectively cover all possible chances of shield stabbing from marth if you've made it clear that you have no intention of grabbing her. you have to get around her shield, her CC, put her in the air, and further negate her ability to defend herself so well, because as long as she's on the ground in this match, you ARE at a disadvantage. you have to throw her up, there's no other way around it. and if you found one, you either got lucky or you were better than that sheik player to begin with.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Nair isn't a cure all (and it's extremely situational in the Sheik matchups as we are all pointing out), if we had one move that covers all situations that would be pretty dumb wouldn't it? I really try only to do this on reaction to a get up or roll, but even when I jump the gun doing dtilt to retreat nair is usually safe. That being said, I don't give up the edge to Sheik regardless. It's one of the few places you can really trap her and there are enough mixups you can do to get around the invincibility that it's not worth giving up the edge of the stage simply because she grabbed the edge.Sheik can invincible ftilt coming up from the ledge pretty easily. I'm pretty sure retreat nair doesn't cover that.
I'm just thinking that the chances of getting hit near the edge, or giving up the edge completely and fighting when your both back on. What's the gain or trade off? I see no gain in the situation as your giving up ground, and relieving Sheik of any pressure once she has grabbed the edge. And no amount of if you do this Sheik can do that will change this for me.
psuedo cc is holding down during any attack animation your grounded for. Your not doing true cc (as doing nothing and holding down reduces knockack way more). Also for Good Sheiks know not. Who says it's up to them? It's up to YOU to ruin their spacing to allow CC to work. You see them go to space a SH aerial? Wavedash right under Sheik and hold down is the simplest example. I've seen enough top level play that this theorycrafting is BS, you CAN mess up their spacing and ANY opportunity will net you a CC grab or something. This is in fact one of the top skills high level players have, because if your grounded holding down is usually the best DI you could do for the situation anyway.
It's NOT a dependency tool. You don't run up and hope to CC something. You do everything you typically do, and psuedo CC everything. You uptilt? Hold down until the animation ends, Fsmash? same thing. It's not something you should think about doing, it should be just IN everything you do.
A perfect example as it's more prevalent is simply to watch Fox v Falco high level matchups. You know Fox knows not to do aerials that can be CC'd, high level Falco's MOVE into compromising positions to get those CC shines. You can do the same thing with Marth and his great grab range.
Niko45
Smash Master
Nair isn't situational unless you include being a really good approach situational... I promise I'm not lying...it's an amazing approach against her.
Basically with her on the ledge you need to respect that she is back and you need to give her a LITTLE bit of room. Nair is just an inferior move in that situation because it's just a much bigger commit than just dtilting her shield or waiting/doing nothing initially. You don't need to directly respond to her getting up from the ledge, in fact this is one of the hardest characters to really trap on the ledge... It's better to back off and not do an INSTANT response to her getting up from the ledge but to stand back a bit, let her get up while still apply pressure by having her back to the ledge with you standing right outside her dash attack range and then trying to force her to battle back to mid stage from there (which she will lose a LOT of the time). All you need is an fthrow/dtilt -> get on edge asap and you're edgeguarding her so you don't need to be hitting her instantly as she comes up since she's so disadvantaged when you have stage behind you and she doesn't.
Nair just sucks cause its at best hitting her shield which dtilt could have done with better spacing and it's probably getting ***** by certain sheik options like needles, well timed dash attack, invince ftilt, rolling behind you, etc.
TL:DR Nair sucks as a zoning tool. Use it very aggressively or not at all.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I choose "not at all" then. If you want to be aggressive as Marth vs Sheik that's fine so long as you understand that 1. that's EXACTLY what that character feeds off of and 2. you should still NEVER attack a grounded...<any character> from the air sans maybe fair camping peach or something. It is strictly in your best interest to throw her up even if you have no follow-up. Even if you know she's going to land again and only take trivial damage. At least you have the chance to regrab her when she lands and the opportunity to fight her without all of her advantages that she naturally has on Marth. The only aggression in this match from a neutral position is a grab or MAYBE a tip dtilt when she's under a platform that she can't SH under (YS, PS). Even the dtilt is risky against older sheik styles that run up and block, but that's a dying strategy. Yeah that's pretty much it. Just grab man.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,974
I would obviously agree that you should CC anything given the opportunity and the fact that the CC would be beneficial. However, Sheik won't (or at least shouldn't) be approaching with things where Marth can just ruin the spacing by wavedashing. I just don't see good Sheiks throwing out moves which Marth can force to be misspaced by simply repositioning himself.
Archangel
Smash Hero
ignore this.
Archangel
Smash Hero
It's not even but it's not 60-40 either.
I think it's at best 50-50 but more like 51-49 sheik.
I've got very comfortable with the MU lately and i do say I feel like i'm gonna win every time i play vs sheik now.
Grabbing is the key but not grab attempting. You can't attempt to grab sheik.
you either do it or you don't. Too many grab attempts will lead to you holding your *** in your hand after it's handed to you.
I think it's at best 50-50 but more like 51-49 sheik.
I've got very comfortable with the MU lately and i do say I feel like i'm gonna win every time i play vs sheik now.
Grabbing is the key but not grab attempting. You can't attempt to grab sheik.
you either do it or you don't. Too many grab attempts will lead to you holding your *** in your hand after it's handed to you.
Ryucloud
Smash Journeyman
Marth can do it just Dont get grabed
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
I personally hate FD in this MU. Uthrow Sheik is alright, it forces her to use her 2nd jump to get out of your combo, then just follow her. You can sometimes Fthrow>Dash attack or Fthrow>WD forward>Fsmash.
Hit that ***** off stage and never let her come back.
If you have the ledge, and Sheik JUST makes it back on the ledge. Ledgehop>Dair. From there you can either Dair her for a spike, or Fsmash(Maybe)
Hit that ***** off stage and never let her come back.
If you have the ledge, and Sheik JUST makes it back on the ledge. Ledgehop>Dair. From there you can either Dair her for a spike, or Fsmash(Maybe)
DarkChronosColdsteel
Smash Rookie
Almost every sheik's atack leaves you open to get punished.
As I said on the mu thread, Isnt a great idea fight sheik with marth
However, I think that an useful option to fight her is playing "defensively", maybe that should do it, retreating fairs and calculated grabs, al that stuff.
As I said on the mu thread, Isnt a great idea fight sheik with marth
However, I think that an useful option to fight her is playing "defensively", maybe that should do it, retreating fairs and calculated grabs, al that stuff.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Marth vs Sheik is def 60-40 Please lets not even get into stuff saying Marth has a better chance than that. Sheik can 0 to death Marth. Marth can't. Sheik can also edgeguard Marth muuuuuch better.
Sheik ... has a 0-death on Marth?
What is it?
What is it?
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
It's grab>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>FAIR
Ok, not a zero to death, but It's way easier for Sheik to combo Marth.
Ok, not a zero to death, but It's way easier for Sheik to combo Marth.
OverLord
Smash Ace
I was about to post this a while ago, but gave up.
I'm not sure what made me start asking. I should go back to lurking then infracting.
Sheik's combos on marth are more guaranteed but typically shorter, Marth's combos on Sheik have more potential to deal more damage.
Sheik has to do dthrow to aerial then chase, into _______. Basically Sheik will essentially always connect a hit with a throw but cannot always extend it past that. Marth's throws on sheik may not always connect but they have potential to do huge amounts of dmg.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Grabs are much more concrete with Sheik.
Tec, till what % can Sheik CG Marth? (I actually don't know and want an answer lol)
But after she can't Dthrow CG him anymore. She can Ftilt and then I think Fair/Uair.
Tec, till what % can Sheik CG Marth? (I actually don't know and want an answer lol)
But after she can't Dthrow CG him anymore. She can Ftilt and then I think Fair/Uair.
Yea, as in what I was saying =3 but anyway.
Marth can be CGed for about <10%. I've escaped Sheik's dthrow CG at like 5% before. If Marth DIs away, he can essentially be CGed forever.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
So it's better to not DI/DI a tiny bit hoping the Sheik messes up than rather try and DI away as far as possible?
Beat!
Smash Master
I've never played Ntsc, but if I were to guess, I'd say DI the throw a little, to avoid tipper usmash, and DI whatever followup Sheik does away. F-tilt won't have any guaranteed followups, and uair will be hard to follow up (although still possible, I think). %-dependant, of course.
But as I said, I've never played NTSC, so someone a little more experienced should probs answer XD
But as I said, I've never played NTSC, so someone a little more experienced should probs answer XD
Niko45
Smash Master
There are a few keys to beating sheik:
1) Control the ground game. Approach her with dtilts and bait her with your dash dance and wavedash to get grabs. Dash attack her if you are really good at it. Do not random fsmash. Do not get dash attacked.
2) Only go to the air game once she's gone to hers. Do not attack air to ground as a basic approach. Once she goes in the air, outspace her with your own air game. Space your aerials very very well. Her hitboxes come out quicker than yours but you can outspace them to beat them so do that really well and you can dominate her in the air. Be very cautious about challenging her on a platform. If you can time up tilts well it's an extremely good anti-air as well and can net you big damaging combos if it connects. Watch out for her needle approaches from the air, do not overly concern yourself with random needles shot at you from across the stage (like with Falco's lasers, taking a little damage is often very worth establishing good positioning against your opponent. you don't have to shield/powershield EVERYTHING ALWAYS). Do not get fair'd. Do not allow her to shield pressure you with fair very much. Watch out for/do not challenge her bair.
3) Get very good at the timings and executions for edgeguarding her (and all the scenarios she can present to you while edgeguarding her). Know when to regrab. Know when to fsmash her off. Get good at getting yourself on the ledge as fast as ****ing possible. Learn the timings for ledgestanding and ledge rolling and be really confident about when you have invincibility and when you don't. Have good mixups (flirt with bairing her, actually bair her, get off the edge early for a more powerful fsmash, stay on the edge extra long to call out sheik trying to get the ledge as you get off, etc)
1) Control the ground game. Approach her with dtilts and bait her with your dash dance and wavedash to get grabs. Dash attack her if you are really good at it. Do not random fsmash. Do not get dash attacked.
2) Only go to the air game once she's gone to hers. Do not attack air to ground as a basic approach. Once she goes in the air, outspace her with your own air game. Space your aerials very very well. Her hitboxes come out quicker than yours but you can outspace them to beat them so do that really well and you can dominate her in the air. Be very cautious about challenging her on a platform. If you can time up tilts well it's an extremely good anti-air as well and can net you big damaging combos if it connects. Watch out for her needle approaches from the air, do not overly concern yourself with random needles shot at you from across the stage (like with Falco's lasers, taking a little damage is often very worth establishing good positioning against your opponent. you don't have to shield/powershield EVERYTHING ALWAYS). Do not get fair'd. Do not allow her to shield pressure you with fair very much. Watch out for/do not challenge her bair.
3) Get very good at the timings and executions for edgeguarding her (and all the scenarios she can present to you while edgeguarding her). Know when to regrab. Know when to fsmash her off. Get good at getting yourself on the ledge as fast as ****ing possible. Learn the timings for ledgestanding and ledge rolling and be really confident about when you have invincibility and when you don't. Have good mixups (flirt with bairing her, actually bair her, get off the edge early for a more powerful fsmash, stay on the edge extra long to call out sheik trying to get the ledge as you get off, etc)
You're right that slight DI is optimal, and the rest of what you said is pretty true actually.
DI away is okay but you should keep in mind that sheik can always regrab if you DI away.
If you're scared of tipper upsmash you can just DI in or no DI and spam jump.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'm embarrassed that something so stupid came from someone in my state.
Niko covered most of the important things but missed a couple that I'll add here:
1. learn how to sweetspot both recoveries as marth. by that I mean know what spacing for up B grabs the edge as low as possible, and what up B spacing lets you go over the edge and land on the stage with the least amount of landing lag possible. because sheik has fairly high jumps, should she edge hog you and you go over it to land on the stage, landing as close to the stage as possible and holding block makes it difficult for her to ledge jump aerial and hit you. there's really no reason not to learn this anyway, but I've learned that there are a LOT of bad marth players out there. I'd be willing to bet that almost every single one of you does not know how to land just over the edge accurately.
2. sheik has very weak approaches and is very weak to characters under her. thus, your DD game should be more effective than it is against say fox/falco/falcon etc because those characters have fairly safe ways of overextending to catch you on your DD when sheik....doesn't really have anything. your DD game should be your Plan A to put her into the air.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Sorry I guess i'm just really bad at the Sheik MU? It's not my fault nobody around here plays Sheik though, yeah it's surprising.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i don't know how good you are at a match or the game in general. i just know that your post was stupid. because it was. huge generalizations usually are. it's not even an attack, it's just observably incorrect. if sheik could do whatever the hell she wanted at any time, it would be a 100-0 match, not like 55-45.
realistically vs sheik, if you get grabbed as marth at 0, you hold the way she's facing and she can do like, 3-4 hits tops for 30-35%. at higher % you'll get killed, but it's certainly not a freestyle death combo.
the really sad part here is that teczero infracted me for calling your post stupid, but i've already contacted him about that privately.
realistically vs sheik, if you get grabbed as marth at 0, you hold the way she's facing and she can do like, 3-4 hits tops for 30-35%. at higher % you'll get killed, but it's certainly not a freestyle death combo.
the really sad part here is that teczero infracted me for calling your post stupid, but i've already contacted him about that privately.