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ganon LOVES platforms vs marth. even if marth is better than ganon at using platforms, it also gives him some way to escape marth's bull****. ganon has no such answer without them.
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lmao wut? overs best win in the US was linguini, and it was sheik-ganon. M2K was still indisputably top 4 in the world at this point. Definently a massive skill gap.Err... while I do agree that M2K is better than Over, Over was definitely not "considerably less skilled" at the time.
well if the up-b is going to hit you, you have to stand or do something to get invincibilitylmao wut? overs best win in the US was linguini, and it was sheik-ganon. M2K was still indisputably top 4 in the world at this point. Definently a massive skill gap.
Also I always thought it was more efficient to wait until the sheik commits to poofing onstage then ledgedashing on, fastwalking behind her and taking a non-tipper f-smash. Especially when you are over 100% do these stand-up/ roll shenanigans seem implausible.
Crouch Canceling especially psuedo Crouch Canceling, should be used as often as it's applicable. This prevent's Sheik from doing dash attacks or poorly spaced tilts/jabs/aerials (cept fair) till reasonable percents. Don't know why you would think otherwise.Crouch canceling should be used sparingly.
True, but at the same time false. You can't really bait Sheik except for one situation which is being just inside dash attack range and auto canceling the nair while DI'ing backwards. Sad story is, it's still possible to be grabbed by Sheiks who know how to use dash attack canceled grabs. ANY other possible range is either they are dumb for trying to approach and give you a baited grab, or they will dash attack your feet while psuedo CCing it and comboing you off it.Yeah, Nair is certainly not a bad move. It simply requires some care against Sheik. The fact that it can be autocanceled actually makes it a very good move for baiting.
Nair has two definable uses in the matchup where it actually works pretty well. One is if you dthrow off to edgehog you can immediately ledgehop nair if you think they will try to upB/doublejump immediately. This still works exceedingly well and for some reason has not been used that much. This is simply a guess in a guessable situation, and will be safe from retaliation as if Sheik drops low and regrabs you can simply dash away from the ledge.marth has no business using nair vs sheik. you are only asking to get *****. if you want to bait sheik (baiting is the only somewhat defensible argument for nair so far) just stick to DD camping because sheik has super limited approaches. there is literally no good reason to ever use nair vs sheik.
I know when to use it. Never. Don't act condescending when you don't know what you're talking about.
1 you would be better with upair instead.Nair has two definable uses in the matchup where it actually works pretty well. One is if you dthrow off to edgehog you can immediately ledgehop nair if you think they will try to upB/doublejump immediately. This still works exceedingly well and for some reason has not been used that much. This is simply a guess in a guessable situation, and will be safe from retaliation as if Sheik drops low and regrabs you can simply dash away from the ledge.
The other use is when Sheik is on the edge trying to get back on. Doesn't matter what she does, waveland on/ledgehop/roll/getup. Spaced dtilt to sh DI'd back autocanceled nair will safely cover multiple options. That Sheik can do nothing about, and will catch any attempt to get up and immediately roll away from the edge.
1. It depends on what you want to do, Nair is gonna send the Sheik again off stage directly, while Uair can open to a flashy juggle or to a grab. Since the outcomes are different, you can't say Uair is better overall, for it depends on what result you want to reach.1 you would be better with upair instead.
2 a proper WD off the edge is still incincible long enough for her to use it. a tighter sheik will trade or get past you.
What is pseudo Crouch Canceling? CC should be used sparingly because it's not something to become dependent on; good Sheiks know not to use meager moves at lower percents, and trying to CC too often will result in you getting grabbed. Also, dsmash sort of eats through attempted Crouch Cancels, save at really low percents.Crouch Canceling especially psuedo Crouch Canceling, should be used as often as it's applicable. This prevent's Sheik from doing dash attacks or poorly spaced tilts/jabs/aerials (cept fair) till reasonable percents. Don't know why you would think otherwise.
Umbreon clearly said that he thought nair was a good move, just not against Sheik.I would just like to point to a set that is possibly one of M2Ks strongest sets he's ever played, vs PP at G6 2 where he uses several baiting and spacing nairs through the entire set (not against sheik, but against spacies which some ppl consider worse).
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=300236
I thought about that, and usually if the Nair is spaced right it should at least trade, BUT I'm not sure about this one and I'll check it out.Sheik can invincible ftilt coming up from the ledge pretty easily. I'm pretty sure retreat nair doesn't cover that.
yup. make that ***** poof.You gotta back the **** up when sheik gets the ledge. I basically just try to space a dtilt at the edge of where her waveland would end, or I'll also do *nothing* and just wait for her to do something else after she's gotten up that I can hopefully react to.
Nair isn't a cure all (and it's extremely situational in the Sheik matchups as we are all pointing out), if we had one move that covers all situations that would be pretty dumb wouldn't it? I really try only to do this on reaction to a get up or roll, but even when I jump the gun doing dtilt to retreat nair is usually safe. That being said, I don't give up the edge to Sheik regardless. It's one of the few places you can really trap her and there are enough mixups you can do to get around the invincibility that it's not worth giving up the edge of the stage simply because she grabbed the edge.Sheik can invincible ftilt coming up from the ledge pretty easily. I'm pretty sure retreat nair doesn't cover that.
psuedo cc is holding down during any attack animation your grounded for. Your not doing true cc (as doing nothing and holding down reduces knockack way more). Also for Good Sheiks know not. Who says it's up to them? It's up to YOU to ruin their spacing to allow CC to work. You see them go to space a SH aerial? Wavedash right under Sheik and hold down is the simplest example. I've seen enough top level play that this theorycrafting is BS, you CAN mess up their spacing and ANY opportunity will net you a CC grab or something. This is in fact one of the top skills high level players have, because if your grounded holding down is usually the best DI you could do for the situation anyway.What is pseudo Crouch Canceling? CC should be used sparingly because it's not something to become dependent on; good Sheiks know not to use meager moves at lower percents, and trying to CC too often will result in you getting grabbed. Also, dsmash sort of eats through attempted Crouch Cancels, save at really low percents.
Nair isn't situational unless you include being a really good approach situational... I promise I'm not lying...it's an amazing approach against her.Nair isn't a cure all (and it's extremely situational in the Sheik matchups as we are all pointing out), if we had one move that covers all situations that would be pretty dumb wouldn't it? I really try only to do this on reaction to a get up or roll, but even when I jump the gun doing dtilt to retreat nair is usually safe. That being said, I don't give up the edge to Sheik regardless. It's one of the few places you can really trap her and there are enough mixups you can do to get around the invincibility that it's not worth giving up the edge of the stage simply because she grabbed the edge.
I choose "not at all" then. If you want to be aggressive as Marth vs Sheik that's fine so long as you understand that 1. that's EXACTLY what that character feeds off of and 2. you should still NEVER attack a grounded...<any character> from the air sans maybe fair camping peach or something. It is strictly in your best interest to throw her up even if you have no follow-up. Even if you know she's going to land again and only take trivial damage. At least you have the chance to regrab her when she lands and the opportunity to fight her without all of her advantages that she naturally has on Marth. The only aggression in this match from a neutral position is a grab or MAYBE a tip dtilt when she's under a platform that she can't SH under (YS, PS). Even the dtilt is risky against older sheik styles that run up and block, but that's a dying strategy. Yeah that's pretty much it. Just grab man.TL:DR Nair sucks as a zoning tool. Use it very aggressively or not at all.
I would obviously agree that you should CC anything given the opportunity and the fact that the CC would be beneficial. However, Sheik won't (or at least shouldn't) be approaching with things where Marth can just ruin the spacing by wavedashing. I just don't see good Sheiks throwing out moves which Marth can force to be misspaced by simply repositioning himself.psuedo cc is holding down during any attack animation your grounded for. Your not doing true cc (as doing nothing and holding down reduces knockack way more). Also for Good Sheiks know not. Who says it's up to them? It's up to YOU to ruin their spacing to allow CC to work. You see them go to space a SH aerial? Wavedash right under Sheik and hold down is the simplest example. I've seen enough top level play that this theorycrafting is BS, you CAN mess up their spacing and ANY opportunity will net you a CC grab or something. This is in fact one of the top skills high level players have, because if your grounded holding down is usually the best DI you could do for the situation anyway.
It's NOT a dependency tool. You don't run up and hope to CC something. You do everything you typically do, and psuedo CC everything. You uptilt? Hold down until the animation ends, Fsmash? same thing. It's not something you should think about doing, it should be just IN everything you do.
A perfect example as it's more prevalent is simply to watch Fox v Falco high level matchups. You know Fox knows not to do aerials that can be CC'd, high level Falco's MOVE into compromising positions to get those CC shines. You can do the same thing with Marth and his great grab range.
I was about to post this a while ago, but gave up.Sheik ... has a 0-death on Marth?
What is it?
I'm not sure what made me start asking. I should go back to lurking then infracting.I was about to post this a while ago, but gave up.
Sheik's combos on marth are more guaranteed but typically shorter, Marth's combos on Sheik have more potential to deal more damage.It's grab>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>FAIR
Ok, not a zero to death, but It's way easier for Sheik to combo Marth.
Yea, as in what I was saying =3 but anyway.Grabs are much more concrete with Sheik.
Tec, till what % can Sheik CG Marth? (I actually don't know and want an answer lol)
But after she can't Dthrow CG him anymore. She can Ftilt and then I think Fair/Uair.
You're right that slight DI is optimal, and the rest of what you said is pretty true actually.I've never played Ntsc, but if I were to guess, I'd say DI the throw a little, to avoid tipper usmash, and DI whatever followup Sheik does away. F-tilt won't have any guaranteed followups, and uair will be hard to follow up (although still possible, I think). %-dependant, of course.
But as I said, I've never played NTSC, so someone a little more experienced should probs answer XD
I'm embarrassed that something so stupid came from someone in my state.It's grab>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>whatever the hell she wants>FAIR
Ok, not a zero to death, but It's way easier for Sheik to combo Marth.