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How come so many people are taking a dump of FE lately?

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Kevandre

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A lot of fighting game fans aren't fans of tactical RPGs and get frustrated when a large portion of the roster is taken up by characters they don't know that are very similar

Now, I think it's ridiculous. Especially in Ultimate where Sakurai is literally putting in EVERYONE. And sure, I'm an FE fan so he could make half the full roster be Fire Emblem and the only thing I wouldn't like about that is the complaining from other Smash fans (Basically like it is now). But hell. It's a Nintendo franchise with endless memorable characters that wouldn't take too long to implement into the game. I'm all for it.
 

pupNapoleon

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Continuing from my previous post, having a playable mounted unit would be a logistical nightmare. If you never let the rider and mount be separated, you get the absolutely ridiculous sight of the rider's horse somehow sticking to their feet when clinging to a ledge and the rider somehow pulling the horse up with him/her upon climbing up the ledge (as well as the poor horse most likely having its head clip through the ledge, which will inevitably lead to concussion jokes); alternatively, the horse itself would clings to the ledge, which looks even more ridiculous (not to mention physically impossible, considering that horses don’t have any, oh, I dunno, thumbs) and begs the question of how the rider stays on its back when the horse is completely vertically-positioned (not to mention how the horse would climb up the ledge). If you allow the rider and horse to separate, you run into more problems. First of all, the rider's moveset and attributes with the horse are going to be different than the horseless attributes, which brings up the problems Zelda and Sheik had when they were two characters in one (and the problems Zelda retains as a result of the Melee dev team's horribly bungled attempt at Multiform Balance between her and Shiek), and then there's the question of how to return to the mounted moveset when the rider and mount are separated, which could be tricky to resolve (it’d most likely end up like Wario trying to use Wario Bike when the bike is present on-stage and nowhere near him). You also still have the ridiculous scenario of the pair clinging to a ledge while together, only now with the possibility of the irrealism of the scenario being resolved by dropping the horse to its doom (which means no more mounted moveset, and a lot of angry animal-lovers). Speaking of which, outside of the jackasses who'll drop horses into pits for fun, you also have the issue of the rider possibly having to sacrifice the horse in order to get to the ledge at all, depending on whether or not the devs go for the low-hanging fruit of making the Up+B involve the rider leaping off the horse like Mario ditching Yoshi in Super Mario World. And what do we do with the horse while the rider's not riding it? Does it just stand around, invincible, immobile, and not participating in the fight at all (and possibly being carried offscreen after being left on a moving platform by a careless or cruel player)? Do we have the horse try to assist its rider, Ice Climbers style, and potentially get KO'd by opponents? Do the rider and horse have essentially one hurtbox while the rider is on the horse (resulting in a massive hurtbox that gets hit easily), or do they each have their own hurtbox and take damage (and knockback) separately (resulting in the pair easily getting separated), or is the horse invulnerable while the rider is on it (bad idea, considering a lot of ground attacks would have trouble connecting)? Does the rider get knocked off the horse every time (s)he's launched while riding (which will force them into the unmounted moveset upon being launched (which will be incredibly annoying for those who prefer the mounted moveset), negate any weight difference between the mounted and unmounted movesets, and potentially leave the horse in a really unfortunate position (such as on a platform that's about to leave the screen)), or does the horse get launched with its rider (which will inevitably lead to the aforementioned horse-on-the-ledge shenanigans), or do the horse and rider get separated as they're launched (not only forcing a switch to the unmounted moveset, but in all likelihood KOing the horse)? No matter what, you just create a complete logistical headache of a character who may be horribly imbalanced and could have an even worse form-switch-forcing shtick than Pokémon Trainer's old stamina system, with the added bonus of possible horse murder that is certain to get PETA's attention (read: unbridled wrath). Pokémon Black and Blue and Super Tanooki Skin were bad enough. Sure, PETA is made up of malicious, ignorant, idiotic, hypocritical, all-around absurd yahoos who shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone with a functional brain (I can provide statistics on their animal-murdering antics if you want), but the sad reality is, there will be enough people listening to them to potentially cause trouble for Nintendo. Hell, PETA and Nintendo recently got on good enough terms for PETA to release one of its propaganda games on the Nintendo Switch (yes, I'm serious; it involves anthropomorphic cats wreaking havoc upon a parody of the fast food industry). It's just not good business sense to stir up another controversy, and giving players the option to be utter ***** to (non-anthro) animals in a game as high-profile as Smash will definitely stir up controversy.
I actually had to break this up into paragraphs to read; the wall of text on a digital screen is painful.

Smash fans have always dumped on Pokemon. Two veterans from Brawl were barely spoken when sm4sh came around, as a great example.
It does not mean Pokemon is not the top media franchise ever. That gives it more weight than ... legitimately anything else of which I can think.
 

Luigifan18

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I actually had to break this up into paragraphs to read; the wall of text on a digital screen is painful.
I did strongly consider breaking it into paragraphs while writing it, but I couldn't decide where the break points should be.

EDIT: I decided to break it right before I started rambling about PETA.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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I did strongly consider breaking it into paragraphs while writing it, but I couldn't decide where the break points should be.

EDIT: I decided to break it right before I started rambling about PETA.
Whoah....that's a wall of text.
I don't think I'm going to read that all. Could you summarize it for me?
 

Luigifan18

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Whoah....that's a wall of text.
I don't think I'm going to read that all. Could you summarize it for me?
Okay. There is literally no way to implement a horse-riding character in Smash that wouldn't be a godawful mess and/or a direct dare to PETA incensing them to try to make Nintendo's life hell... again.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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Okay. There is literally no way to implement a horse-riding character in Smash that wouldn't be a godawful mess and/or a direct dare to PETA incensing them to try to make Nintendo's life hell... again.
Again? Did PETA mess with Nintendo before?
 

Oddball

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Again? Did PETA mess with Nintendo before?
A few times.

They protested Pokemon and made a nasty "parody" game out of it. They repeateldy attacked Mario for stuff like him jumping on turtles and wearing a Tanookie suit. They sent a public letter to Nintendo complaining about how Nintendo took the cruelty out of the milking game in 1-2 Switch. There was also the odd response letter they put out when Iwata died.
 

The DanMan051

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Again? Did PETA mess with Nintendo before?
Pokemon.

Well put.

To expand a bit, let's not understate the fact that Fire Emblem has the third most characters of any franchise. It's only beaten by Mario and Pokémon, which are the best selling game franchise in history and the most profitable media franchise of all time, respectively.

Legend of Zelda, one of the most famous and venerable franchises since the early days of video games, has less characters, despite there being several characters like Skull Kid, Midna, Zant, etc. that have a lot of potential. Arguably, the series hasn't gotten any newcomers since Melee (given that Toon Link is more or less a tweaked Young Link). Fire Emblem's gotten several.

Donkey Kong, Metroid, Star Fox, and Kirby also didn't get any new characters in Smash 4, when Fire Emblem got two newcomers and an Echo Fighter, along with Roy getting added back.

Many of Fire Emblem's characters were added just a few years after their respective games, or sometimes even before. Roy was added to Melee before his game was even released. Corrin was added to Smash 4 before his game was released internationally. Meanwhile, characters from franchises/games that are much older have been neglected.

And people still ask for more Fire Emblem characters.

So it's not just the volume, but the amount of favoritism obviously being shown to the franchise over so many other franchises. It gets more love than some of the most historic franchises in gaming, primarily just because of one game from 2012. Sakurai also admitted in his most recent Famitsu column that someone on the audio team really loves Fire Emblem, so even its music will be getting a lot of attention.

There's also the aesthetic issue. Fire Emblem has always had an anime aesthetic, and with Awakening, it leaned heavily into a lot of anime tropes, hence its boost in popularity. Most other Nintendo franchises are more unique in their aesthetics, thus most other potential characters would add more aesthetic diversity to the cast (e.g. a big space dragon or a big crown-and-cape-wearing crocodile), but Fire Emblem characters all draw from the same basic anime art style. Hence the label "anime swordfighter" that's been given to Fire Emblem and other franchises. That's why a lot of people were excited about Simon Belmont's appearance, because he's got more of an 80's "Conan the Barbarian" look, and he uses a whip instead of a sword, so he adds a lot to the cast.

Do some people take their resentment too far? Of course. Fire Emblem has become a very popular franchise both in Japan and in the West following the release of Awakening. To say that it doesn't deserve attention is ridiculous. And the characters that are in the game are all genuinely loved by a decent number of people, as opposed to some desired characters like Waluigi, where most of the character's support is ironic. But when your representation is only beaten by the two biggest gaming series in history, then maybe that's a little much.

And when people have been asking for beloved and unique characters from other long-running franchises for over a decade, but we keep getting Fire Emblem characters from games that have only come out recently (or in some cases haven't even come out yet), it's not hard to understand why some people would be miffed.
So you instantly start out with the **** measuring contest-- seriously, why in the grand scheme of things does it matter that FE has "7" characters (really just 5 because two of them are Echoes, and one of the remainders is a semi-clone)?

Smash has generally only added recent and/or currently marketable characters-- the few exceptions being the outright retro choices and K. Rool from the Ballot. Jigglypuff's sole reason for inclusion was because it was popular in Japan.

FE fans are torn on it's Smash representation, just like Zelda fans are for Zelda's representation-- Roy's relative unpopularity, coupled with other more popular GBA lords with different weapons (Hector and Ephraim) makes him an easy target. Awakening having 3 characters (even though two of them are Echoes) also is rather controversial. And really, it only makes sense to want your most wanted character; because someone's most wanted is an FE character, it's somehow an issue?

Oh look, devaluing Awakening's success. There were two major factors: casual mode removing the biggest (though largely psychological) barrier of entry to the series/cutting down the learning curve and getting an existent marketing budget. That, on top of word of mouth, is what lead to its success and longer legs than expected.

And that's... incredibly subjective. The vast majority of characters in Smash have a very similar cartoon styling to them; complaining when characters go against that because "it's less unique" is ironic and hypocritical because, in terms of Smash's roster, it's the distinct minority-- i.e. they're more unique in context.
...Oh, I thought people were looking forward to Simon because he was a classic character from an older series; apparently it was only because of his design. At least Richter's coming with him and looks a deal more handsome. And hilariously, from what I saw of Castlevania fans Alcuard and Soma had plenty of vocal support but Simon was bandwaggoned due to him being the classic one and, therefore, most likely.

And there's the biggest issue: people take Smash representation way too seriously. If anything, Ultimate's combatted that with Ridley and K. Rool-- the only thing FE's got is an Echo out of all this, and one who's tied with Young Link for the worst looking model in the game at that. A lot of the complaints, at this point, is either just Zelda fans making it into a ****-measuring contest (99% of FE fans are either completely apathetic about Zelda or agree that it should get more characters) or people who want more obscure characters going after it. Pokemon's representation is painfully skewed towards Gen 1, it's taken DK and Metroid forever to get their villain... you can either complain about it all, or accept that Smash's roster isn't the most balanced thing and move on.

The next game after Ultimate is likely going to be a reboot, anyway-- so it'll be something of a blank slate.
 

Luigifan18

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Oh goodness.
Did they like...say it was abusing animals or something?
Clearly they don't understand what pokemon are.
Yep. That is precisely what they said it was. Needless to say, they were basically laughed out of the room by Pokémon fans.
 

31fps

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I can see it:
"PETA reports the competition!"

Ok aside from that, I'm beginning to get annoyed by how much Fire Emblem advocates are grasping at straws. Off the top of my head I can come up with 5 people I know in a single second who aren't satisfied with the FE roster: not because it's a bad way of representing FE, but because they genuinely think that FE deserves an eight slot. That's implying that Fire Emblem is as popular as Mario and the series sells like **** compared to not just Mario, but also Zelda, Kirby, and even DK (total sales vs amount of releases). Honestly I would rather gut half of the FE roster and replace them with popular newcomers from underrepresented series. Just keep Marth and Ike because they're not simply "One and done!" characters (although I bet some other have appeared in multiple games) and make the rest assist trophies. Use the remaining five slots to add Bandana Waddle Dee, Magolor, Marx, Viridi, and Funky Kong (I like Funky over Dixie).
It's really the fact that FE has been such a bad investment. It holds seven slots and barely produces as much uniqueness in terms of aesthetic/playstyle/actual hype compared to other series. That's why everyone hates FE.

Also yet another anime style RPG with lots of swords, a complicated story, medieval/ruin/post apocalyptic/etc. settings and you need to research every previous game to understand the next one excites barely anyone (hence the fact that it struggles to break 2 million sales).
 

thirsty-pocket

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I'm not a fan of FE, tried it, not my cup of tea. But I still welcome it in Smash.
My issue is that I know FE has a lot more to it than pretty boys with capes and swords, but that's almost all we ever see coming from the series.
 

Izanagi97

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I'm not a fan of FE, tried it, not my cup of tea. But I still welcome it in Smash.
My issue is that I know FE has a lot more to it than pretty boys with capes and swords, but that's almost all we ever see coming from the series.
I think it's mostly because they pick the main characters of those games to be represented in Smash... and almost all of them so far share similar attributes like being swordsmen/swordswomen and being nobility (except for Ike and Robin)
 

thirsty-pocket

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Yeah. That much is obvious to me. But I think in cases where there is a series of games where the main protagonists are mostly the same, they should drop their unspoken rules and prioritize interesting side characters instead.
 

ExitWound

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because it's overrated and people act like fire emblem is the only nintendo game there is
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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Yeah. That much is obvious to me. But I think in cases where there is a series of games where the main protagonists are mostly the same, they should drop their unspoken rules and prioritize interesting side characters instead.
I assume that was motion behind adding Robin, that he was not just another sword wielder and different from your average protagonist. Corrin, as controversial as he was, serves that purpose as well by having a moveset based less around sword wielding and using his dragon morphing abilities instead. It's true that we have many Marth derivatives, but they were added out of convenience and to allow fans to play as Lucina or Chrom.

because it's overrated and people act like fire emblem is the only nintendo game there is
Who is exactly saying that?
 

Diem

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So you instantly start out with the **** measuring contest-- seriously, why in the grand scheme of things does it matter that FE has "7" characters (really just 5 because two of them are Echoes, and one of the remainders is a semi-clone)?

Smash has generally only added recent and/or currently marketable characters-- the few exceptions being the outright retro choices and K. Rool from the Ballot. Jigglypuff's sole reason for inclusion was because it was popular in Japan.

FE fans are torn on it's Smash representation, just like Zelda fans are for Zelda's representation-- Roy's relative unpopularity, coupled with other more popular GBA lords with different weapons (Hector and Ephraim) makes him an easy target. Awakening having 3 characters (even though two of them are Echoes) also is rather controversial. And really, it only makes sense to want your most wanted character; because someone's most wanted is an FE character, it's somehow an issue?

Oh look, devaluing Awakening's success. There were two major factors: casual mode removing the biggest (though largely psychological) barrier of entry to the series/cutting down the learning curve and getting an existent marketing budget. That, on top of word of mouth, is what lead to its success and longer legs than expected.

And that's... incredibly subjective. The vast majority of characters in Smash have a very similar cartoon styling to them; complaining when characters go against that because "it's less unique" is ironic and hypocritical because, in terms of Smash's roster, it's the distinct minority-- i.e. they're more unique in context.
...Oh, I thought people were looking forward to Simon because he was a classic character from an older series; apparently it was only because of his design. At least Richter's coming with him and looks a deal more handsome. And hilariously, from what I saw of Castlevania fans Alcuard and Soma had plenty of vocal support but Simon was bandwaggoned due to him being the classic one and, therefore, most likely.

And there's the biggest issue: people take Smash representation way too seriously. If anything, Ultimate's combatted that with Ridley and K. Rool-- the only thing FE's got is an Echo out of all this, and one who's tied with Young Link for the worst looking model in the game at that. A lot of the complaints, at this point, is either just Zelda fans making it into a ****-measuring contest (99% of FE fans are either completely apathetic about Zelda or agree that it should get more characters) or people who want more obscure characters going after it. Pokemon's representation is painfully skewed towards Gen 1, it's taken DK and Metroid forever to get their villain... you can either complain about it all, or accept that Smash's roster isn't the most balanced thing and move on.

The next game after Ultimate is likely going to be a reboot, anyway-- so it'll be something of a blank slate.
Calling it a "****-measuring contest" is missing the point. Some people might take it that way, but that's not the issue. This isn't about "Who's the biggest," it's about "Why have some of Nintendo's longest-running and most popular franchises gotten snubbed for two Smash entries in a row, but Fire Emblem keeps getting more and more characters? Especially when half of those characters are from just one recent game/from a game that isn't even released yet?"

There's nothing wrong with characters getting added only because of recent appearances, of course. Not every character needs to be a certain age in order to in the game. Recent characters can be exciting and keep things fresh. Link's new outfit and move changes have people excited. People are hype for Inklings, too. Ike was added to Brawl shortly after his game released, too, and no one minded because he was cool.

It was Smash 4 that went over the line. If it was just Robin, no one would've complained, but Lucina was what made people grumble. It was mostly unreasonable, since she didn't "take a slot" because she was what we now call an Echo Fighter. But then Roy got added back (instead of, say, Wolf), and then Corrin was added before the game he/she was from was even localized. Corrin was the straw that broke the camel's back, since by that point the game had gotten two newcomers, an Echo Fighter, and a extra veteran fighter, surpassing Legend of Zelda in characters and tying it with Pokémon, the most profitable media franchise in history. All because one game was fairly successful. It doesn't help that Fates, the game that got special treatment, apparently got a mixed response when it did eventually release.

So when people who have been asking for, say, Ridley, King K. Rool, Geno, and other characters for about a decade are let down, while Fire Emblem is continuing to get more characters from games that are super recent, it's kind of frustrating.

Not that I'm trying to downplay the success of Awakening. It successfully revitalized a franchise that was on the brink of death and brought it into the mainstream. That's commendable, given how many games with better odds manage to fail in one way or another. And it's a good franchise to have in Nintendo's repertoire, since it fills a niche that they don't really have otherwise. I'm glad the franchise has become successful and has given Nintendo another leg to stand on.

But Awakening is just one game, and suddenly it becomes the most prioritized franchise in the series. Legend of Zelda has had a variety of characters from different entries that would make for great fighters, but we've been stuck with the same setup since Melee; Star Fox had three characters and then lost one; it took Donkey Kong, one of Nintendo's most popular and historic franchises, 19 years to reach three characters; and Kirby still hasn't gotten any newcomers since Brawl. And even if you're talking raw success, it's not even like the game was a monumental success--it sold ~2 million units. More successful than a lot of games, but that puts it about on par with some of the best-selling Metroid games. Animal Crossing: New Leaf, released the same year as Awakening, sold about 12 million units. Splatoon is also way more successful and recent, but it's only getting one fighter.

It's not hard to see that Fire Emblem's representation is less about its success and position among Nintendo's franchises and more about how much favoritism Sakurai and his team are showing the series. When not one but two characters are added before their games are even released (either internationally or just in the West) it's not even an argument.

It's not a "****-measuring contest." It's more like when your teacher favors a student in your class and gives them high marks and praise just because the did pretty well on one recent project, when there's other students that have consistently made outstanding projects for years, but they're being treated as nothing special. That'd annoy anyone. No one's really complaining that Mario and Pokémon get a bunch of fighters. Most people that see that just go "Yeah, that makes sense." Anyone who doesn't is just bitter. It's when people are hoping for other characters from games/franchises they've loved for potentially decades, and a bunch of recent Fire Emblem characters keep showing up, it makes sense that people would be asking "WTF?" Corrin getting in the game early would be like that teacher giving the student an A before their project is fully graded.

Not that showing favoritism here and there is always a bad thing. It gives the game a little more personality and soul than if it was just a raw by-the-numbers popularity contest. Some of the weird and wacky characters that have shown up over the years wouldn't be possible if Sakurai was just going by what was exclusively popular. Marth and Roy's inclusion in Melee was also a fun introduction to the characters for many. But most people would agree that the Fire Emblem favoritism went too far in Smash 4.

I do feel bad for Fire Emblem fans that are hoping for other characters who would be more unique (like the ones you mentioned), but instead keep getting Marth clones.

Of course aesthetic preferences are subjective, and determining a character's worth on their looks alone is stupid. Smash's cast is already pretty eclectic, so anime-styled characters aren't really a problem. Again, it's moreso Smash 4 messing with things, because of not only all the Fire Emblem characters, but also Shulk, Cloud, and I guess Dark Pit adding to the "anime swordfighter" negativity. I don't think "anime swordfighters" are inherently bad, since Cloud and Shulk both come from unique franchises and bring something different to the table. The problem is that Fire Emblem is the main contributor to the issue, and unnecessarily so.

Simon's main merit is that he's a classic and long-requested character. I didn't mean to insinuate otherwise; I should have said "Part of the reason why" instead. My actual point about his appearance was that it's a bonus that I've seen some people point out. They could've gone with his more recent, much more anime-styled appearance, but instead they went with his classic look that's more distinct by comparison. Simon also made more sense than Alucard because he's mostly tied to Nintendo consoles.

You're right that some people do take Smash characters too seriously. The friggin' morons who were harassing Sakurai over Waluigi are the worst of it. And people who belittle other characters' inclusions because they can't separate what they want from what's reasonable are also a problem. A lot of people have trouble keeping their expectations in check.

For example, one of my top two wanted characters, Chibi-Robo is by no means someone I'd say has to be in the game. He had one really good game on the GameCube, a not-as-good game on the DS, a minor, gimmicky camera game on 3DS, and an above-average platformer game on 3DS, none of which were really commercial successes. On top of that, unsurprisingly, he's not a very requested character. So I'm not going to act like he really deserves to be given a character slot, even though I really want him. I'm not going to begrudge Fire Emblem characters getting added from successful and popular games and say "Chibi-Robo should've gotten in instead of them." That'd be unreasonable. I'd love to see him in the game, but it's one of the longest shots there is. Just because I want him doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect/demand him. It's important to think objectively and put things into context.

Which is why when Fire Emblem fans ask for more characters, it's rather baffling to everyone else. The series is already the third-most represented in the series, even if many of its characters are Marth derivatives. At that point you might as well lobby for Nintendo vs. Fire Emblem and get basically every character from Fire Emblem: Heroes just to settle it once and for all.

My other most wanted character, Dark Samus, was one I didn't fully consider reasonable after Ridley was revealed. Metroid finally got a true second character, so I didn't think another one would ever happen. Dark Samus is the luckiest character to ever make it into Smash. And at this point, Metroid doesn't need any more characters. It's good as is. Many other franchises would be good as is if they just got one or two more characters as well. Fire Emblem seems to be one of the only franchises where few people are satisfied, despite its consistently growing representation.

Also I'm sure Chrom and other characters' models will get touched up by release. There's already observable graphical improvements between the E3 demo and more recent footage. Wolf looks a little unfinished, too.

...Hm, this is longer than I anticipated. I get bored while I'm at work. Not much else to do.
 
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staindgrey

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... Fire Emblem is popular?
It certainly is now. Awakening and Fates both sold way more than any of their predecessors, and Nintendo's gone all-in with the franchise. Their mobile game has been supported for over a year and a half with new content on a near weekly basis, there's a rather large trading card game in Japan, and, to my knowledge, Fire Emblem is the only Nintendo franchise aside from Smash to get a direct dedicated entirely to it and it alone. It got its own Warriors game with a season pass and has its next game coming in 2019 for Switch.

For a tactical RPG based in fantasy-anime-medieval settings that should be relatively niche, it's definitely caught on since Awakening broadened its appeal to new players.
 

Diddy Kong

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Honestly, I sort of think Sakurai pushes Fire Emblem characters to increase their popularity, hoping for more overall sales. It helped Ike for example. His games didn't sell much, but now they sell for crazy big sums of money online. Why? Smash made Ike popular and people want to play the games he's from. I don't think Fire Emblem gets the same kind of marketing as other Smash staple franchises, so Smash is sort of the marketing for Fire Emblem. I guess it's just Sakurai showing love. And besides that, there was a notion that Sakurai made that where Awakening to be released later, Robin probably wouldn't have made it. If Lucina was the sole Fire Emblem newcomer in Smash 4, Roy as DLC due to being a insanely requested cut veteran and Corrin as pure advertisement, what would the response be then? I often kind of wonder. Which is funny because in concept, Robin and Corrin are the most unique Fire Emblem characters.

I also want more Donkey Kong Country newcomers, the franchise could do with Dixie as a semi-clone of Diddy styled like Isabelle, and Funky Kong as a DK Echo. But luckily for DKC, at least King K.Rool is there and he is a good sign for things to come for my favorite franchise of all time. That alone, helps TREMENDOUSLY! Believe me, it's a big relief for all of us DKC fans who are fans since Rare touched the franchise.

I also desperately want a new Zelda newcomer and my most wanted potential newcomer Impa, I already would settle with as a Echo- which diminishes her worth as a addition but I still want it cause I'm used to getting nothing. Then again, Zelda is in a unique spot where the roster also rotates in each game, but the main hero is at least always the same; Link. And Zelda is also there 99% of the time in one shape or another. So that makes the setting far more easy, compared to Fire Emblem. Yet a character as Impa has been around since the start of the franchise but was still overlooked as a newcomer in Smash 4 despite having a great new appearance and revival role with Skyward Sword to go by. It also took 4 full games for Ganondorf to sort of feel as his own character... So yes, Zelda fans, myself included, do have a reasonable reason to complain about this.

Kirby also hasn't had a newcomer since Brawl, and with it's expanding cast and Bandana Dee's growing importance and playability, it seems fair to get this little dude with the helicopter spear his chance in Smash.

Wolf also indeed never should've been cut. Star Fox might not sell as hotcakes anymore, but still, no reason to just cut it's main villain.

It's overall kind of dishearting to see the original franchises that started Smash 64 be neglected so badly. That is, if you're not from the Mario or Pokemon franchise, cause they get characters plenty. :rolleyes:
 

staindgrey

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Wolf also indeed never should've been cut. Star Fox might not sell as hotcakes anymore, but still, no reason to just cut it's main villain.
What're you talking about. They didn't cut Andross.

 

Izanagi97

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The Slayer

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Yeah, GameFAQs isn't exactly a calm environment for most (or any) forms of conversations. It's pretty much like Mos Eisley spaceport from Star Wars, but somehow have a profanity filter on it. I go there for guides mostly and come right out. But to be fair about Fates, the game wasn't exactly great (playing all three paths, they were ok but felt like Nohr was shafted on the story department), so it felt like they put Corrin cause of advertisement. I think that's where most of the dissatisfaction is coming from.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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The story wasn't good but Fates, particularly Conquest, had some of the best FE maps in years. People can dislike Fates for the story but nobody can't take that away from it.
 
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Blackwolf666

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For me it’s a mixture of over representation and same-ish moves. I wouldn’t have much of a problem if they did more to represent each type of character which is why I am 100% behind corrin and robin being in smash opposed to most others which only seem to want to keep the 1h sword lords.

As for the FE series itself... love it.
 
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Icelerate

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Even prior to becoming an FE fan, I didn't have problems with FE characters in Smash. As a matter of fact, Marth is my favourite Brawl fighter and Ike is my fourth favourite.

I was fine with Smash 4's roster as well even though I didn't buy the game because I have no Wii U or 3DS.

Each of the individual choices for FE Smash fighters makes sense even though it resulted in a lot of FE representation but that's more of a coincidence and not because Sakurai was giving FE favouritism. If he were to give favouritism, it would be to the Kirby franchise since he develops those games, not FE.

I'll go over each individual choice.

Marth: He's the original lord and appeared twice so him being the first Smash fighter was a great idea.
Roy: Marth represents classic FE and at that time, Roy represented modern FE. Plus Roy was an easy addition and wouldn't be so easy to replace.
Ike: More distinct from Roy and better represents modern FE by that point and is the main character in more games than Roy.
Robin: Aesthetically unique, unique moveset and represents the new generation of FE.
Lucina: Easy clone, finally a female FE rep and super popular.
Roy: He was included due to Smash fans wanting him back. I don't think he's all that popular in the FE fanbase. If anything, the Smash fans who complain about too many FE characters may be to blame for his inclusion.
Corrin: Unique moveset and aesthetically different.

BTW, Corrin and Roy were DLC so people who don't want more FE fighters didn't have to spend money on them so I don't get the complaints.

Chrom: An easy echo fighter and gained quite the following due to his non-inclusion despite expected inclusion in Smash 4.

I don't think Sakurai set around wanting to add as many FE characters as possible. I think these fighters had individual merits that he considered before adding them.

A lot of people bring up sales numbers and it's true FE is far from top tier when it comes to sales unlike Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, etc. but sales shouldn't be the only metric by which characters should be added. I do agree that Zelda, in particular, deserves more reps such as a goron and Impa due to being recurring characters instead of rehashing Link and Zelda.

Also, FE is all about war, which means its massive cast, lends itself to a fighting game a lot easier than other franchises with similar popularity.
 

Izanagi97

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Even prior to becoming an FE fan, I didn't have problems with FE characters in Smash. As a matter of fact, Marth is my favourite Brawl fighter and Ike is my fourth favourite.

I was fine with Smash 4's roster as well even though I didn't buy the game because I have no Wii U or 3DS.

Each of the individual choices for FE Smash fighters makes sense even though it resulted in a lot of FE representation but that's more of a coincidence and not because Sakurai was giving FE favouritism. If he were to give favouritism, it would be to the Kirby franchise since he develops those games, not FE.

I'll go over each individual choice.

Marth: He's the original lord and appeared twice so him being the first Smash fighter was a great idea.
Roy: Marth represents classic FE and at that time, Roy represented modern FE. Plus Roy was an easy addition and wouldn't be so easy to replace.
Ike: More distinct from Roy and better represents modern FE by that point and is the main character in more games than Roy.
Robin: Aesthetically unique, unique moveset and represents the new generation of FE.
Lucina: Easy clone, finally a female FE rep and super popular.
Roy: He was included due to Smash fans wanting him back. I don't think he's all that popular in the FE fanbase. If anything, the Smash fans who complain about too many FE characters may be to blame for his inclusion.
Corrin: Unique moveset and aesthetically different.

BTW, Corrin and Roy were DLC so people who don't want more FE fighters didn't have to spend money on them so I don't get the complaints.

Chrom: An easy echo fighter and gained quite the following due to his non-inclusion despite expected inclusion in Smash 4.

I don't think Sakurai set around wanting to add as many FE characters as possible. I think these fighters had individual merits that he considered before adding them.

A lot of people bring up sales numbers and it's true FE is far from top tier when it comes to sales unlike Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, etc. but sales shouldn't be the only metric by which characters should be added. I do agree that Zelda, in particular, deserves more reps such as a goron and Impa due to being recurring characters instead of rehashing Link and Zelda.

Also, FE is all about war, which means its massive cast, lends itself to a fighting game a lot easier than other franchises with similar popularity.
I mean hell, it already lent itself to a "Warriors" style game so why not
 

SmashBro99

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I'm sure the DLC will be littered with more sword waifus, instead of unique characters that do use swords as well or FE characters that use one of the other many, many weapons/magics from the series.

I like Fire Emblem a lot actually, just never a fan of the overrated main characters and the side characters always seem more interesting.

Am I alone in feeling that I wish some of them were just alt skins?

Stick Marth and Lucina together.
Ike - I don't care for the character but atleast he feels unique.
Roy is unique, just put a Chrom skin. (If he needs Ike recovery, make him an Ike alt idc)
Robin and Corrin are very unique and don't need to be touched.

Marth (Lucina alt)
Ike
Roy (Chrom alt)
Robin
Corrin

5 slots, instead of 7 which is ridiculous for a series like FE. Especially when they all feel like the same thing (except the ones i mentioned)

They really need to use alts better. No one complains about Alph, or the Koopalings because they are just alts. If they just did this instead of jamming like 5 of the same character down our throats there wouldnt be a problem at all, no one would complain.

When I play Bowser Jr I exclusively choose Larry, hes my fave. It doesnt bother me that he doesnt have his own little box, I love that they fit that many characters into one, they are all there, but I feel like FE fans would get butthurt... (Yes I understand Lucina and Chrom are much more popular than koopalings, but that doesn't change a thing, or it shouldnt.)

I love Fire Emblem but I dont want anymore characters from the series.
 
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staindgrey

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Okay. There is literally no way to implement a horse-riding character in Smash that wouldn't be a godawful mess and/or a direct dare to PETA incensing them to try to make Nintendo's life hell... again.
Just to play devil's advocate here:

Did PETA, or anyone for that matter, make a fuss over Duck Hunt being in Smash 4? That's a literal dog and duck. A twofer.
 

Luigifan18

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Just to play devil's advocate here:

Did PETA, or anyone for that matter, make a fuss over Duck Hunt being in Smash 4? That's a literal dog and duck. A twofer.
As far as I'm aware, Duck Hunt flew under their radar, but I wouldn't be surprised if they threw some sort of fit.
 
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31fps

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Even prior to becoming an FE fan, I didn't have problems with FE characters in Smash. As a matter of fact, Marth is my favourite Brawl fighter and Ike is my fourth favourite.

I was fine with Smash 4's roster as well even though I didn't buy the game because I have no Wii U or 3DS.

Each of the individual choices for FE Smash fighters makes sense even though it resulted in a lot of FE representation but that's more of a coincidence and not because Sakurai was giving FE favouritism. If he were to give favouritism, it would be to the Kirby franchise since he develops those games, not FE.

I'll go over each individual choice.

Marth: He's the original lord and appeared twice so him being the first Smash fighter was a great idea.
Roy: Marth represents classic FE and at that time, Roy represented modern FE. Plus Roy was an easy addition and wouldn't be so easy to replace.
Ike: More distinct from Roy and better represents modern FE by that point and is the main character in more games than Roy.
Robin: Aesthetically unique, unique moveset and represents the new generation of FE.
Lucina: Easy clone, finally a female FE rep and super popular.
Roy: He was included due to Smash fans wanting him back. I don't think he's all that popular in the FE fanbase. If anything, the Smash fans who complain about too many FE characters may be to blame for his inclusion.
Corrin: Unique moveset and aesthetically different.

BTW, Corrin and Roy were DLC so people who don't want more FE fighters didn't have to spend money on them so I don't get the complaints.

Chrom: An easy echo fighter and gained quite the following due to his non-inclusion despite expected inclusion in Smash 4.

I don't think Sakurai set around wanting to add as many FE characters as possible. I think these fighters had individual merits that he considered before adding them.

A lot of people bring up sales numbers and it's true FE is far from top tier when it comes to sales unlike Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, etc. but sales shouldn't be the only metric by which characters should be added. I do agree that Zelda, in particular, deserves more reps such as a goron and Impa due to being recurring characters instead of rehashing Link and Zelda.

Also, FE is all about war, which means its massive cast, lends itself to a fighting game a lot easier than other franchises with similar popularity.
This is straight up not true (and what you'd expect from a FE fan).

Marth and Ike were good choices for Brawl, but after that things got out of hand. Robin had a unique moveset and was probably the best way of representing Awakening without using a clone. Lucina (and Chrom for that matter) should have been an alternate costume of Marth but they decided to make her fighter because they had "extra time," which, knowing Nintendo, is also a lie: They did it to make make the roster seem larger, to appease FE fans, and more importantly, make more money off of amiibos.

No one was truly salty over Roy because he was a Melee star (although from what I've heard he's not that popular among the FE fanbase, but I could be wrong). But that really should have been it. They decided to go the extra mile and put Corrin in the game to promote Fates. This wouldn't be super bad if fates sold better, but it really only sold enough to proceed to making the next game.

Saying "They're DLC so it doesn't count" is also a bad argument. Of course they count. Anyone would much rather have an actually popular fighter with a unique moveset from a good game than another sword wielder only added to promote her game.

And to correct you, Kirby would actually be the hardest series for Sakurai to add characters too. In case you (probably) didn't know, Sakurai left HAL a while ago because he felt the demand for more Kirby sequels was too much. It was becoming too "sequelized." And although Sakurai himself has said it does not exist, loads of people would claim Sakurai bias if he ever added another Kirby character over their most wanted. Even if the Kirby character is a much larger request than their most wanted, people will still scream Sakurai bias as an excuse.

If Sakurai bias was never a thing I assure you the Kirby roster would be so much bigger right now.

Sakurai had so many FE characters in the game to promote FE as a whole. Roy was in Melee even though his game didn't come out until 2003, and in 2001 (when Melee was released) FE was still only in Japan. They rotated out Roy for Ike which was fine. Smash 4 added so many because they wanted to promote FE, using various fighters. Chrom was added in Ultimate because of actual demand from the FE fanbase and not because they wanted to promote FE. In fact, Sakurai said that he was pressured by Intelligent to increase the FE roster and that they assured him it would be a good idea and beneficial for the Smash community.

So that's a no to the "individual merits" crap.

FE having low sales is exactly the point. They want to have more sales so they can have something other than Mario and Kirby being the flagship of 3DS system sellers. (IMO this is a terrible idea, Smash should not be a billboard to advertise a game and should actually feature gaming icons and popular demands.)

FE is about war? Well whoop-de-do! Let's remove the entire Mario roster because it's only about rescuing princesses and driving go-karts! Let's remove every game that doesn't feature war! Get rid of Pokemon, Kirby, DK, Yoshi, Earthbound, F-Zero, Ice Climber, Sonic, and even frigging Splatoon because they never explicitly mention war and combat! It's only platforming or friendly competition those games care about! Not war and fighting!

The reason the game has so many "eligible fighters" with "individual merits" is because the whole theme of FE is to have lots and lots of characters on your side.

"If I draw thirty stick figures and tell someone to turn them into characters for my latest FE game statistically one of them will be in Smash!"

No. Even though FE has a practically endless cast of fighters to choose from that doesn't mean any of them are good ideas. If they can't bring a new idea into the game, if they don't have a unique moveset, if no one wants them, or if their series already has enough fighters (which FE does), they're not needed.

In conclusion: FE has been getting everything it ever wanted and it's unreasonable to say that was a good idea. Every excuse they make for it only makes it seem like they're biased toward FE more and more. It's time that other series get something too.
 

Jyl

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I think it's over representation combined with the fact that FE isn't one of Nintendo's giants like Mario or Pokemon so most people tend to think FE doesn't deserve all that reps. Doesn't help with Chrom either.
I personally don't like the direction the series took myself, but I can't deny the success the series had so all that representation in Smash is somewhat justified and deserved even if I don't like it.
 
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I have a feeling the reason FE is getting so much crap lately is because Fire Emblem is a franchise that the west largely perceived as niche that suddenly gained seven newcomers as opposed to franchises that are iconic to many here in the West, like Legend of Zelda
Diem Diem What this man said 100%. I’d like to also add in regards to Fire Emblem’s Popularity: Yes, Fire Emblem has gotten popular recently, but there’s the key word: Recently. Meanwhile, other series such as Legend of Zelda, Metroid and Kirby remained iconic and beloved for years, and they have nowhere near as many fighters as FE does. Just thought I’d point that out
 
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31fps

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I think it's over representation combined with the fact that FE isn't one of Nintendo's giants like Mario or Pokemon so most people tend to think FE doesn't deserve all that reps. Doesn't help with Chrom either.
I personally don't like the direction the series took myself, but I can't deny the success the series had so all that representation in Smash is somewhat justified and deserved even if I don't like it.
Define Justified
It sounded in your first paragraph like you were calling FE's over representation unjustified

Besides, success is completely subjective. 1.6 million sales (Awakening) is great, but only for a Fire Emblem title. 1.6 million sales on a major Mario, Kirby, Zelda, or Pokemon title is usually not a good sign.

I mean look at Odyssey. On over half of all switches sold. BotW has sold close to 9 million. Star Allies has sold over 2 million sales and is growing constantly, with new content on its way. It's fair to say that FE is being rewarded too much for something other games have already done and aren't receiving any benefits for.

*Everything aside let's begin with the fact that a fanbase as small as FE's does not constitute 7 fighters*
 

Luigifan18

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Do your sales figures include the microtransactions in Fire Emblem Heroes? I personally blew over $500 on that. :estatic:
 

Jyl

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Define Justified
It sounded in your first paragraph like you were calling FE's over representation unjustified

Besides, success is completely subjective. 1.6 million sales (Awakening) is great, but only for a Fire Emblem title. 1.6 million sales on a major Mario, Kirby, Zelda, or Pokemon title is usually not a good sign.

I mean look at Odyssey. On over half of all switches sold. BotW has sold close to 9 million. Star Allies has sold over 2 million sales and is growing constantly, with new content on its way. It's fair to say that FE is being rewarded too much for something other games have already done and aren't receiving any benefits for.

*Everything aside let's begin with the fact that a fanbase as small as FE's does not constitute 7 fighters*
I admit I wasn't aware of the clear sales number, I only knew how successful Awakening was that it practically saved the series. That feat in itself is in my opinion praiseworthy.
I never really said FE's overrepresentation unjustified. Rather I only assumed most of the FE haters feel that way because thats how I saw this situation. Sorry if I worded it weirdly.
 
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