How amazing is the new shielding system?

[Emblem Lord]

Yes, you can dash and instantly shield.

Which is why this new shield is a little on the overpowered side.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

True, but it does offer a relatively safe approach to attack. Kinda like a more defensively minded WD. If you can dash/jog into instant shield, then drop it for an attack you could give a quicker move pseudo-invincibility.

 

[ptown]

Yes, you can dash and instantly shield.

Which is why this new shield is a little on the overpowered side.

you can also run and shield.

AND walk and shield!

 

[SynikaL]

You guys need to be more distinctive between Initial Dash and Dash/Run. You can't Shield out of Initial Dash, only out of a Dash/Run animation. As such, Shield approaches are limited to certain ranges -- unless your Samus, for i.e., who has a very short ID animation.


-Kye

 

[Emblem Lord]

My bad.

I meant to say run and yeah I knew what you were talking about Synikal.

 

[SynikaL]

I know you knew, I was just pointing that at out as the source of people's confusion.


-Kye

 

[Mike87]

Good write up Gimpy.

Do you still have the small shield and the large shield like in Melee?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Yeah I had the wrong idea, thanks for clearing that up Synikal.

Shield out of Initial Dash? good god.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

You guys need to be more distinctive between Initial Dash and Dash/Run. You can't Shield out of Initial Dash, only out of a Dash/Run animation. As such, Shield approaches are limited to certain ranges -- unless your Samus, for i.e., who has a very short ID animation.


-Kye

Yeah, but can't you do any attack out of the initial dash animation, like an easier pivot, so you don't need the shield?

 

[SynikaL]

56k:

You can't Shield out of Initial Dash.


Witchking:

I'm not sure what you're asking, but it seems as though you too believe you can Shield out of Initial Dash. You only can activate your Shield during Run/Dash state.


-Syn

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I know, I should've clarified I guess.

 

[Dreminem]

I may be thinking wrongly, but since you can run up to someone and shield while sliding then they couldn't shield and smash you into oblivion right away. Also, chances are there will be someone with a ranged attack, so camping will not happen as much as people think. The person that can only fight up close would have to rush the person using range or else he will eventually be ready for a KO.

Also, sorry if this has been mentioned or is wrong. I only read the first page.

 

[ptown]

synikal.

you are a fcuking genius. why don't people understand the difference between dashing and running? ****!

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

56k:

You can't Shield out of Initial Dash.


Witchking:

I'm not sure what you're asking, but it seems as though you too believe you can Shield out of Initial Dash. You only can activate your Shield during Run/Dash state.


-Syn

That isn't what I'm saying.

Forget the shield for a minute.

A while back, when Brawl came out in Japan and some people got their hands on it, OoNoiroO made a topic about his Brawl impressions. I think that he said you can do any attack out of the initial dash. This goes hand in hand with the new, very effective Foxtrot.

Now, if this is true, the shielding thing is good, but you can combine it with Foxtrotting to get very good maneuverability and be able to attack pretty much anytime you want.

What I'm asking, is this viable, to combine the stopping of your run (not dash, or initial dash animation) with Foxtrotting?

 

[ptown]

could you tell me what fox trotting is, witchking?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

could you tell me what fox trotting is, witchking?

Watch the video. It's also in the Melee Board's stickied thread about SSBM terms.

Basically, you just keep using the initial dash animation over and over, instead of starting a run. For some characters (notably Fox) it is faster (in Melee, iono about Brawl). The great thing is that you can start a dash dance (and thus pivot) any time you like because you're always in the initial dash animation.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I thought Brawl would be less good becasue wave-dashing was out. After seeing all the new techniques I firmly believe that Brawl will be just as good and if not better considering that the techniques I've seen so far are actually supposed to be used. This whole shield system makes me believe that slower characters will be a bit better.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I thought Brawl would be less good becasue wave-dashing was out. After seeing all the new techniques I firmly believe that Brawl will be just as good and if not better considering that the techniques I've seen so far are actually supposed to be used. This whole shield system makes me believe that slower characters will be a bit better.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. A laggy character cannot use an aerial to hit a shield at all because they lag and they get murdered by the new punishing OOS system. I'm not saying it makes heavy characters worst, just that it doesn't necessarily help them.

 

[SynikaL]

That isn't what I'm saying.

Forget the shield for a minute.

A while back, when Brawl came out in Japan and some people got their hands on it, OoNoiroO made a topic about his Brawl impressions. I think that he said you can do any attack out of the initial dash. This goes hand in hand with the new, very effective Foxtrot.

Now, if this is true, the shielding thing is good, but you can combine it with Foxtrotting to get very good maneuverability and be able to attack pretty much anytime you want.

What I'm asking, is this viable, to combine the stopping of your run (not dash, or initial dash animation) with Foxtrotting?

I see what you're saying now.

First off, I remember Noir's statement about being able to Pivot anything out of ID (such as D. Tilt), and I have yet to accomplish this or hear anyone else confirm it -- so I don't believe it to be true. It seems as though you can only perform F.Tilts and Smashes with Pivot, thus those are the options you have out of ID as far as direct attacks go (outside Up Smash, which needs no Pivot).

Secondly, Pivot is much less flexible this time around, as the Pivot window is only active during the first 2-3 frames of the ID animation. In Melee, you could Pivot at any point during the ID animation, giving you optimal spacing options if you managed to master it.

So to answer your question directly: I'm not sure. It's too early to tell. The thing is, at this point I don't find Foxtrot to be all that practical. Due to the loose nature of Brawl's movements as a result of the Universal Buffer System, I find it very hard to apply at a whim, without fault -- and I'm easily among the most technical Melee players, so it's not that I'm horrible at applying these things (tapping backwards tends to cause me problems). It may just take tons of practice.

As such, it's really up to a visionary such as yourself to show us how it would work (if it were to work). You'd have to apply it to your game seamlessly and effectively in order to prove to yourself and to the community that mastering these two movement options in harmony would create an efficient playstyle.

That's not a challenge or anything, BTW. My point is, is that it could be viable in theory, but not until people put in enough time with these things and exhibit the level of their efficiency of their applications will anyone know.


-Kye
(eh, that's not one of my better posts)

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

*Post that clarifies a lot of stuff*

Ah, I see. Thank you, that helped. It's a bit dissapointing, obviously, but oh well.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

*reason*
-Kye
(eh, that's not one of my better posts)

I think it's pretty good. The explanation was well-done and helps to define what needs to be done when more people have the game. This is the kind of thinking that will help develop the metagame.

 

[falco-hokage]

I bet people will try to block upon the approach of an enemy, then tap block (fast *** hell) when the move is about 2 connect in order to(try to at least) get power blocks every attack(if the shield lag is actually 1 to 2 frames.)

your !opinions!

 

[Odendaalrust]

I personally think the new shielding system detracts from the game.

The game would be pretty limited on approach even without it. But with less shieldstun, less shielddroplag, less stun altogether and super armor on grabs, it's all boiling down to a giant camping and turtling game. Very few character can approach safely, especially with the new shielding system.

I mean, in normal fighting games, you have mixups with High/Mid (Overhead)/Low. In Smash, you just pressure and hope they guess wrong when to roll/shieldgrab/aerial/spotdodge. Now, you can't even do that anymore.

I mean...I feel like I can't ask anything since I haven't played the **** game yet CUZ IT AINT EVEN OUT

but

from what I've seen...doesn't shield work the same as melee except it has more of an opening for perfect shield? and you can do moves out of perfect shield, right? but what is this i hear about camping? how can you camp? you can't attack out of shields easily unless u do the perfect shield

 

[Circle_Breaker]

I still don't fully understand the buffer system, can somebody link me to a post or a topic that explains it really well?

 

[Ryuker]

I think this might not actually make the gameplay more campy but instead more offensive. In melee you could shield pressure a lot which meant you were moving around alot hitting the shiel each time or spacing from the shield. If you were gonna a shield a attacks you either wavedashed after it, rolled, jumped out with a attack or dodged. Basically after shielding you often had to retreat unless your opponent was open for a shield grab.

However in brawl you can actually approach with shield and drop it really fast. But since there is no light shielding you oly get the strong shield and it decreases very fast so if you hold ot too long and take a few hits your shield is broken. Which is why I don't think you will find a lot of camping in shields. Instead you know have the option to approach while having the option to defend fast and follow up quickly or drop it again if there isn't a attack. If anything you won't be forced to stay in a position or evade as long as you would in melee.

I fail too see btw how melee is considered a mainly offence game since there is a lof of defence in the game. Mosty shieks approach with a shield from which they either shield grab or fair. Spamming projectiles forces chars to shield alot and since shield take quite long to drop approaching vs these chars in anoying. There is a lot of laser camping in melee so on. I actually think melee is more defence based then offence based.

 

[SynikaL]

I still don't fully understand the buffer system, can somebody link me to a post or a topic that explains it really well?

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=146398

I think my posts do a good job of actually explaining how it works.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147599


-Kye

 

[falco-hokage]

I bet people will try to block upon the approach of an enemy, then tap block (fast *** hell) when the move is about 2 connect in order to(try to at least) get power blocks every attack(if the shield lag is actually 1 to 2 frames.)

your !opinions!

Does anyone think that this can possibly happen.

 

[AerionTOFAST4U]

I personally think the new shielding system detracts from the game.

The game would be pretty limited on approach even without it. But with less shieldstun, less shielddroplag, less stun altogether and super armor on grabs, it's all boiling down to a giant camping and turtling game. Very few character can approach safely, especially with the new shielding system.

I mean, in normal fighting games, you have mixups with High/Mid (Overhead)/Low. In Smash, you just pressure and hope they guess wrong when to roll/shieldgrab/aerial/spotdodge. Now, you can't even do that anymore.

Oh god I'm sick of you, can't you just leave the brawl discussions? go back to your melee

Seriously, All I see you do is whine and *****

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Oh god I'm sick of you, can't you just leave the brawl discussions? go back to your melee

Seriously, All I see you do is whine and *****

No, all he does is point out flaws in Brawl with reasoning, as opposed to be people that simply say "Brawl is gonna be the greatest," who for some reason don't get the kind of hate that Yuna gets from people like you.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh god I'm sick of you, can't you just leave the brawl discussions? go back to your melee

Seriously, All I see you do is whine and *****

I am sick of people who haven't even been in the comunity for more than half a year and choose to talk down upon peoplewho know far more abut the game.

if anythig all of Yuna's explanations are quit true and this may mean Brawl will have a limited playability since not many characters can approach safely.

 

[OrlanduEX]

No, all he does is point out flaws in Brawl with reasoning, as opposed to be people that simply say "Brawl is gonna be the greatest," who for some reason don't get the kind of hate that Yuna gets from people like you.

I am sick of people who haven't even been in the comunity for more than half a year and choose to talk down upon peoplewho know far more abut the game.

if anythig all of Yuna's explanations are quit true and this may mean Brawl will have a limited playability since not many characters can approach safely.

The problem is that everyone is wrapped up in a dream. They refuse to accept that any aspect of Brawl could actually be (gasp) flawed.
In a thread in the Brawl discussion right now, there are people arguing that tripping actually adds strategy to the game. Randomly falling over is strategic.
Yea I think this makes my original point clear.

 

[verditude]

The problem is that everyone is wrapped up in a dream. They refuse to accept that any aspect of Brawl could actually be (gasp) flawed.
In a thread in the Brawl discussion right now, there are people arguing that tripping actually adds strategy to the game. Randomly falling over is strategic.
Yea I think this makes my original point clear.

This discussion concerned the potential to tech a trip, which would give a few invincibility frames and, while not being really strategic in the sense that it's random, at least provide an extra distinction between noobs and vets, which Brawl may need in the wake of all this reduced depth that Yuna etc. are talking about.

Anyway, regarding the new shielding system, this definitely adds a layer of depth to Brawl by giving the defensive player more options.

 

[smashbot226]

On a note to my earlier posted Impossible Combo...


I've nearly done it. I AM GOING TO DO THE DEDEDE IMPOSSIBLE COMBO.


**** Gordos...

 

[Virgilijus]

If you turn off jumping with the control stick, you can't up-B out of your shield.

Just to let you know

 

[Yuna]

If you turn off jumping with the control stick, you can't up-B out of your shield.

Just to let you know

Yes you can. Using X/Y to jump.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Hmm... characters with swords seem to just LOVE the new shield system...

 

[mark.]

oh my AerionTOFAST4U, with the "too" apparently spelled wrong.

but upb out of shield is classic, using it already. and also tilts are useful

 

[goodkid]

I think this might not actually make the gameplay more campy but instead more offensive.

However in brawl you can actually approach with shield and drop it really fast. But since there is no light shielding you oly get the strong shield and it decreases very fast so if you hold ot too long and take a few hits your shield is broken. Which is why I don't think you will find a lot of camping in shields. Instead you know have the option to approach while having the option to defend fast and follow up quickly or drop it again if there isn't a attack. If anything you won't be forced to stay in a position or evade as long as you would in melee.

. I actually think melee is more defence based then offence based.

I agree, I am a defensive player, and I can't camp in light shield anymore. The shield dimishes so fast now. The powershielding will somewhat helpful, because first you have to predict the attack and then you have to react, the attack is already finished half the time.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think the main problem is that they are giving the defensive player too many options, which detracts from the offensive player. Attacking is now so much more risky than defending that nobody is going to really want to do it. In melee it was indeed too much in the offensive player's favor (look at Falco), but they overdid it when they tried balancing offensive and defensive play.

That's just my opinion though, and I hope that I'm wrong, but as it seems right now the one on defense has a lot more options than the one on offense, and in a fighting game that's generally bad.

 

[Jun.]

i dislike the fact that this shielding system promotes camping around instead of fighting. My experiences in smash have proven that going on an offensive strike is often more dangerous than just sitting there and waiting for your opponent.

we need more offensive tactics.... then this shielding system would be better utilized