Housepets! Mafia - Game Over - Who lived happily ever after in Babylon Gardens?

[Jim Morrison]

I've just received an infraction, and I'm not sure if I'm still on the extremely thick ice of "1 infraction = perma ban", so I might need a replacement for this...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Talk to Xiivi about that Gustave, via PM, props the best idea atm.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

also catching up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I like Gustave more now, I think I can move his read up from null.

With regards to my D1 play, there's not really anything else I can say. What is for sure is that my read on JTB changed. Anything else I try to say will be WIFOM to everyone else. What I will say is that you should read my posts directly following T-Block's case. You can tell I agreed with the case, as I told him his points were good and valid and that I liked what he said, etc. It honestly was more of an afterthought to get a read on T-Block through opposing the JTB lynch, but I can say with sincerity that I failed at that. I can see where people are coming from when they say how it looks to them seeing my opinion go back and forth.

I imagine this may look similar to what John did (although he's done it more often).

If people think that I may have been targeted by TPK's ability, I want to know why. From what I've seen, TPK has town reads on T-Block and Red Ryu and on those two only. The flip may have swayed him on T-Block town, but not to the point of him liking me better. It is a possibility, sure, but I know scum is between Red Ryu and T-Block.

Assuming town has a cop, we can cover the most ground by going with a lynch one, cop one, and act toMorrow approach to this. I want everyone to give me a list of who they'd want lynched out of the 3 of us in order from most want lynched to least want lynched.

My list would be:
1. Red Ryu
2. T-Block
3. Kantrip

On a Red Ryu scum flip, I would go after John toMorrow. On a town flip, cop should investigate either me or T-Block. T-Block should be guilty in that scenario, and we can go from there.

To answer your question T-Block, if I were a vig and had to shoot one of you or Red Ryu, it would be a close toss-up but I would pick Red Ryu mostly due to having less content. I would rather not shoot either in that situation, however, because the pressure of a wagon or impending lynch can do wonders for getting reads on other players, and a vig shot would eliminate that.

Well, the read noticeably went from "I agree with T-Block's case" to "I think he's town" to "I'm fine with lynching him" to "JTB can be scum". I was merely describing what other people saw it as. If I tried to push the fact that I was just trying to get a read on you, it would be WIFOM again. If people want to look in to me, I'm fine with this. If we have a cop who didn't cop me last night, they can do so toNight if they wish (that is assuming I'm alive toMorrow, though).

What I mean by RR having less content is that he's just been less useful in scumhunting and you have provided us with more content, more questions, more reads. This does not say anything about my reads between the two of you, but the problem is that it could go either way for me. That's why I would base my shot off of Red Ryu being less involved. It would be easier to look back at your posts and get a read than it would be to look back at Red Ryu's posts and get a read. This is all assuming I HAD to make the shot. I would rather not, as I said.

@John, Tery, Gustave: What do you guys think the chances are that Red Ryu and T-Block could both be scum? Do you see anything in their interactions (or lack thereof) that suggest this? Anything that makes it a less likely scenario?

More content? Content can still be scummy, can you clarify what it is about T-blocks more content and posts that make him more town in your opinion? More questions and more reads, ok that isn't town per say it depends on the questions and reads presented, your being very vague without giving direct answers and stances.

We've also been over why you are a possible for being targeted by TPK. Any of us three could have been targeted at this point, your play from before with how you responded to the town flipped JTB.

 

[Kantrip]

Reactions to town flip mean nothing: TPK would have picked his target during the Night Phase. Meaning, all he would know is that TPK was town. In twilight, the flip was not confirmed. I do acknkowledge that logically I could have been targeted, but I am laying out what I know could have happened. If you would prefer, I can start listing myself in null reads on read lists and on possible scum, but I know my role and I know that I could not have been the target.

It was either T-Block or you, and multiple factors point to you over T-Block.

T-Block's play has just generally looked townie to me. His questions did seem like general scumhunting and his case and push on JTB was consistent and put himself really far out there. If his content seemed hollow, forced, or reachy, I would put it under scrutiny. However, the cult leader scenario aside, his play is generally more townie to me than yours.

I would opt for a lynch one cop the other type of approach here (unless we guess right on the lynch and get scum, in which case copping John would probably be more useful).

I think I've gone over this enough, it feels like the most logical approach.

Vote: Red Ryu

 

[Xiivi]

VC2B DtJ Glyphmoney Replaces TokyoGamer7

4/7|11.03.11 11:59PM EST

votee|voters
John2k4|Gustave/
Red Ryu|Kantrip/
No Vote|DtJ Glyphmoney/T-block/Red Ryu/John2k4/Terywj/

 

[T-block]

Sorry I've been absent. Welcome to the game, Glyph. I'm more interested that you read carefully rather than read quickly - it's important that you have a strong understanding of what's been said when coming into the situation that we're in.

 

[Kantrip]

Oh, didn't notice the replacement header.

Welcome, Glyph

Do what T-Block said, it would be nice to have your read unaffected by current opinion's until you've formed your own.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Time for some READING

I'll take care of it overnight

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Sorry I've been absent. Welcome to the game, Glyph. I'm more interested that you read carefully rather than read quickly - it's important that you have a strong understanding of what's been said when coming into the situation that we're in.

Oh, didn't notice the replacement header.

Welcome, Glyph

Do what T-Block said, it would be nice to have your read unaffected by current opinion's until you've formed your own.

Instead of doing that I hard core skimmed like the SS Anne over the waves of the ocean.

Frankly, I'm going to go ahead and get the ball rollin in the direction it should have been going since last night.

vote: T-brock

Captain Cool's been sticking up for the little guy (ie, Tokyogamer) calling him town for his reactions to JTB's gambit early on in the game. Buuuuuuut that's pretty much a stretch, especially to the degree he seems to feel confident in it.

Beautiful part is, TG looked like he was next to be lynched for a pretty good part of yesterDay (or at least I got that impression flipping through it). T-block could have played the role of the wise ol' mountain sage, sternly wagging his finger and scolding 'I TOLD you guys he was town! I hope you've learned a valuable lesson about trusting me'.

Also, dude didn't die last night and freaking Auspher/TPK did. You show me a scum team in this game that would pick those two over him for NKs, and I'll show you a scum team with T-block on it.

 

[T-block]

I'm not the only one who has said that about your slot Glyph. I wouldn't even say I've been the most insistent about it.

We've gone through basically all of what you said. There are plenty of reasons why I wouldn't have been the NK choice last Night.

Read the thread please.

 

[Kantrip]

While I don't disagree with the possibility of T-Block scum, I don't think those points really hold much water. I've had TG7 as being town and had no intention of lynching him. I'm pretty sure T-Block didn't think he was any more town than I did, and the lynch would not have happened with the amount of sheeping going on.

Auspher was the Night Kill last night, and TPK died from targeting scum with his recruit action. Auspher may have been killed for two reasons:

A. He was pretty much cleared by flavour and lack of a counter-claim.
B. It would create WIFOM. Things such as "why did ________ not die"? This is the case with your speculation on T-Block, and I don't think it's worth it to pursue that train of thought.

TPK's death has been a large topic lately, though. With what we know of TPK's reads (at the time he posted them, and they were subject to change):

-JTB, Auspher, TG7, Tery, and Gustave were not targeted by TPK's night action.
-John and myself were null. One of us could have been the target if TPK developed both a town read and the feeling that being able to communicate would be beneficial. That he picked John is highly unlikely.
-T-Block and Red Ryu were town reads (T-Block moreso than RR).

Reads are subject to have changed, and basically we have determined the target was between T-Block, Red Ryu, and myself.

T-Block - Was the strongest town read for TPK and a driving force in D1. He started and pushed the JTB wagon, insisting that he was certain we would hit scum. Upon seeing that T-Block ended up leading a mis-lynch, TPK could have decided that his town read wasn't as solid and opted to target someone else.

Red Ryu - TPK's only other solid town read was on Red Ryu. Choosing T-Block over Red Ryu would have been a fairly obvious choice, until the mis-lynch was factored in. If the mis-lynch affected TPK's read on T-Block, Red Ryu would be a more likely target.

Kantrip - When TPK presented his reads, I was the "grey mouse" who didn't post enough for his read to be anything but null. It is possible that my play after TPK posted his reads convinced him that I was more townie than Red Ryu and T-Block, and that I would be more beneficial to have in his cult, but even objectively that looks less likely.

I am positive one of T-Block or Red Ryu are scum. They are also smart enough to look back and realize TPK would not have targeted me. Scum would try to make it out to be that I am a possibility, though, because that increases their chances of making it another day unnoticed.

If we lynch one and cop the other, we will find the scum.

 

[Kantrip]

Also, the three of us claiming could help us find the scum more easily. With the slow pace that this game moves at, I would prefer claiming sooner than later if we are going to do it toDay. I want time to follow-up on the claims and I don't want to be rushing at deadline.

 

[John2k4]

Here's a read list for you, since I don't think I addressed that a while back.

Gustave
Kantrip
Red Ryu
T-block
Terywj
Glyph

Glyph is white/null until he posts some more.

(I tried to put "lightorange" for RR, but instead that name gave him blue color. :/)

 

[Kantrip]

John, could you explain your scum reads?

 

[John2k4]

Sure.


Kantrip - Basing a lot of your read on me off of meta from another game seemed bad to me. I felt that you were trying to use that and say: "Look, this was NoobTown play, and his playstyle is different, so he must be NoobScum now." Seemed to me like scum trying to sway town with something that would look impressive to skimmers.
Red Ryu - Eeeeeh I have the slightest feeling that between TB and him, he is the one who was targeted in the night, and caused tPK's death.
Terywj - Haven't liked Tery's playing since the beginning, since he's been kinda here, not talking when he can. Seems like he doesn't want to be put on the spot.

 

[Kantrip]

With my read, what was I before my case on you, and what would I be if I didn't make that case?

With Red Ryu, why is he lean scum and T-Block is solid town? Would Red Ryu be solid town without the night action speculation?

With Tery, you should be questioning or pressuring Tery if you actually think he's scum. This read has been persistent and your reasoning has never been consistent with your actions.

 

[Kantrip]

I will claim first if needed because it doesn't really matter to me but I want Red Ryu to claim before T-Block. Their silence just means that deadline looms ever nearer and we will end up rushing a lynch without the claims even happening.

Tery, Gustave, John, if RR, T-B, and me claim, what would be your preferred order?

 

[T-block]

Hmm.... RR I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about claiming.

 

[Kantrip]

I don't like how selective John is with his answering. This is something that he did as town before, but in general avoiding content directed at you is anti-town and hinders the game. John, please don't stop answering so soon I was almost done my chain of follow-up questions....

Yeah I want to know what Red Ryu thinks of the three of us claiming as well.

 

[John2k4]

Sorry Kanty, I was mainly checking up on a game guide elsewhere, and wanted to post thoughts in here.
-

With my read, what was I before my case on you, and what would I be if I didn't make that case?

With Red Ryu, why is he lean scum and T-Block is solid town? Would Red Ryu be solid town without the night action speculation?

With Tery, you should be questioning or pressuring Tery if you actually think he's scum. This read has been persistent and your reasoning has never been consistent with your actions.

I'd say that even without that case on me, you'd still be leaning scum. I'd probably put you at light orange.

RR is leaning scum for me because as you had stated, TB's been posting, questioning, and selectively pressuring all game. I fell from his play that he is likely a townie.

I know I should be questioning Tery. I'll start up with that soon.

--

Tery, Gustave, John, if RR, T-B, and me claim, what would be your preferred order?

I would prefer: RR, Kanty, TB.

 

[Kantrip]

Alright. Now could you tell me how you come to a scum read on me with my case on you aside?

So you think I am scum but you agree with my reasoning on TB and RR? Do you think I'm pressuring my own scummate, then?

Could you see me and Red Ryu being the scumteam?

 

[Kantrip]

Also you never addressed my case properly. You picked two points that were easy to answer/dismiss and then wrote the rest off as "bad meta arguments".

A large portion of my case was about your scummy D1 behaviour, contradiction of thoughts and ideas, and how Red Ryu is your scumbuddy.

 

[John2k4]

I can see RR being your scumbuddy, yes.

I'll go quote and pick apart your case.

 

[Kantrip]

Alright, then I also want to hear why I'm scum (aside from this case).

Also want to hear your thoughts on RR being your scumbuddy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I am fine with claiming, but I'm gonna sleep on it for a final answer.

 

[John2k4]

So John, now that I got your heart racing:

Honestly this did not get my heart racing. I just read through it to see what you were making a case of.

Meta Stuff
In MM Mafia, John played differently to this. I didn't know how to read it at the time, but looking back at it and having something to compare it to, it is noticeably different. In this game, John is asking a lot of questions, and getting people to post when he sees them viewing, and commenting on a lot of random things. A vast amount of his posts also include a great deal of fluff and joking around. He has used a liberal amount of faces, faces, faces, and faces. I do not like how he has buddied players with his jokingly jolly nature.

That is just meta stuff. That shouldn't have a bearing on your case.

This is just evidence to his change in playstyle from our last game. In this game, he doesn't just speak when spoken to, but he's asking questions and making statements on his own. This is exactly the kind of play I would expect from newb scum. Knowing how John played as newb town and seeing the contrast, it makes it very easy.

Meta.

Alright, so John acknowledges that he's seen the same daycop claim before. In MM, John knew what was up; he understood that it was a gambit and he acknowledges the correlation between the two games. Remember this.

Let me try to understand this. Yes, I remember the daycop clain from MM. Right off the bat in MM, I had no clue RR was bluffing it, but learned off of others as it progressed. What are you getting at with the correlation between games thing?

Yeah. So apparently, John doesn't quite understand the gambit. The whole point is to pressure for points. John knew this, had seen it before, knew he had seen it before, and even brought it up already (see the quote above). Scum slip.

I understood that the gambit was to pressure for info. In MM, RR withdrew his the same day if I remember. JTB was concrete on this, so I was beginning to have second thoughts on it.

This was also directed at JTB after his gambit. John went from saying he wasn't too worried about it as he had seen the same thing done before, to accusing JTB of being anxious. This was a really fast shift in opinions, and nothing was said (in thread, at least) that validates John's change of heart.

Yeah, I was calling him anxious on wanting to get a wagon rolling / collect votes. That's a crime?

I voted John2k4 right off the bat in D1 because I wanted to see how John would react to it. I wasn't expecting buddying as a reaction, but I suppose it makes sense. John would want to buddy me so I would be less likely to suspect him in the future, as he knows I would have meta on him from playing with him before, and also because I voted him right away.

I told him my role PM said he was confirmed scum. I was honestly expecting him to question that.

Better yet, I was expecting him to call me on lying because he would know what I said was false. Considering he didn't suspect me (what I very much expected him to do as town), it worries me. He said "someone get the water, Kanty's gone looney again ", just for reference.

I'm pretty sure Red Ryu his scummate told him that I couldn't possibly know he was scum and to write it off as a joke. Unfortunately, that was not the correct thing to get John to do, as it is out of character and doesn't fit his meta.

Once again, going off of meta here. I hardly paid any mind to your claim, due to all the posts on the first page seeming to be joke votes / cases on people. I felt that he was trying to get me to panic, and make me slip early.

Backtracking here. John now says he wants to let the claim from before simmer, even though he has definitely already ruined its chance to do so by questioning it.

Ruined it?

This is just going back and showing John's change in character between games, again.

Meta.

Here's just an example of one of John's many emoticon posts. Adding the trollface to an otherwise serious post is such a good way to leave a back-door just in case. It's actually quite obvious though. This post was responding to Tery btw.

Meta.
It was meant to be a faux-serious post.

I actually laughed when I compiled John's posts and realized how many of them referred to JTB's gambit. It made it better that they all contradicted each other. So apparently, after all that, JTB is ACTUALLY null with an ever-so-slight lean towards scum. This. Is. Hilarious.

At the time of Kanty's post here, most of my posts were D1. I was actively trying to get everything straight regarding the JTB cases.

This contradicts what John said earlier about JTB. He said that he didn't understand TG7 as a target because he's new and wouldn't know how to respond. Yet now he says he does understand why people are pressuring TG7 for being new.

Mis-understood me a bit there. I was trying to get at the whole pressure the new guy to get him to post more, since your pressure/questions in MM got me to post more.

John was the first one to post after T-Block's case, and didn't say anything but this. I think it's safe to say this shouldn't fly considering the play was a mis-lynch. I like T-Block still. He had the balls to make the case and shouldn't be scum because of it. John, on the other hand....

I honestly felt his case was well organized and thought through, and it made me feel comfortable placing my vote on JTB.

John said this after there were only TWO votes on the JTB wagon (himself and T-Block). "Turning things around"? Honestly? He's trying to make it sound like JTB's lynch was set in stone unless he tried really hard to change it.

Was referring to my MM game where I was slowly picked apart D2, and only had a couple votes up until the end when I got hammered.

This is for reference. John knew JTB was at L-1.

Yep. Went back and counted.

LOL, yeah you did have an idea you were "that close to hammering". You acknowledged that he was at L-1 already! If you're going to use back-doors, you have to think of them BEFORE you get called out.

The claim was the only thing on my mind then, and the L-1 possibility of quickhammer hit me later on when I read what was going on.

Is this post... for real? I mean, John posts two contradicting thoughts in the same post because he got ninja'd.... And no, he didn't edit anything in, this was all one thought. First it sounds like a reasonable claim? Then it sounds like a mafia safe claim?

I had written that out, and right before I posted the quick reply, TB's post came up. I read it, and then added in my thoughts on it.

Still no reasoning for Tery besides a lack of info to use to read him.

At the time, yep.

Obviously he gives me these two options. As we've already seen, both of these people were town. Would you look at that? A win-win for Johnscum who can have a mis-lynch either way.

Those were the two people under heavy scrutiny at that point. I wanted your thoughts on each of them.

Smh. Just smh.

?


--

I really, really hate not being able to nest quotes when you quote someone like this. Even just two stacked quotes would suffice for these Mafia games.

 

[Kantrip]

Alright, I will leave that response for now. Thanks for the response, John.

Now I just need your opinion on Red Ryu being your scumbuddy and how I know this.

 

[John2k4]

Man why do those 's have to eat my posts...
-

I wasn't too concerned about the "How I know you are RR's Scumbuddy" thing, because even now my belief is that it's just a simple bluff, and you're fishing for information that could result from me panicing over it.

Unless you're claiming to be a cop, and have drawn a guilty on RR, and are therefore assuming that with me being your second scumpick, I must be his buddy.

 

[Kantrip]

Do you think a night action where you send in 2 names and are told if the players are on the same faction is possible, John?

 

[John2k4]

Okay, I will now write these posts in Notepad, since they keep getting eaten. ;_;

--

I can see that being a role, with what I've seen around in past games...

...

That would mean RR is a townie, and TB would be in the hotseat for the cult death..

 

[Kantrip]

That could be what that would mean. Or it would mean we should lynch Red Ryu toDay to either clear you or condemn you.

Wouldn't you agree that this would be more logical than assuming RR is town because you say so?

 

[John2k4]

That could be what that would mean. Or it would mean we should lynch Red Ryu toDay to either clear you or condemn you.

Wouldn't you agree that this would be more logical than assuming RR is town because you say so?

That sounds like a logical way to handle it, yes.

So now you want RR lynched because we should take your word on what your role is.
Hrmmm...


I'd like to get the opinions of other people on this role possibility first.

 

[Kantrip]

Alright, so we've established from a logical standpoint what would make sense.

Now I want to ask you personally: what would you rather do? What makes more sense to you?

 

[John2k4]

Honestly, I can not go with a firm answer of what I would do at this time. My gut says to go with your plan of a D2 lynch on RR, but I want other eyes to see your role claim of sorts first.

I've gotta say, this role makes some sense to me, and if it said that I was the same faction as RR, then town benefits in two ways. First, TB gets the magnifying glass for the cult thing. Then there's a confirmed town on me. Sadly though, we would need to lose RR for this to happen.

 

[Kantrip]

You would lynch Red Ryu, then? If you're town, though, you should know that he's town and naturally want to lynch T-Block, should you not?

Your answer confuses me, though, because if you are scum you would not advocate a lynch on Red Ryu because it would condemn you as scum.

This can only mean one thing: You are actually scummates with T-Block. Since you know T-Block's scum flip would clear Red Ryu, this would in turn also clear you by default.

The reason you would advocate Red Ryu's lynch over T-block's is that you would be saving your scumbuddy, and you KNOW that Red Ryu would flip town, which would "clear" you.

This is why you were instantly suspicious of my role, because you knew what I claimed could not be true, as you are scum and Red Ryu is town.

Also, I never thought Red Ryu was your scumbuddy. I wanted reactions, and I actually crumbed it this time:

Good, now that that's out of the way I can ask Red Ryu what he thinks about my case on his scummate. Answer when you feel like it, no rush there. Maybe we can get a response from other players as well? But that's probably wishful thinking on my part. I would like to see a response from at least T-Block, Tery, John, and Red Ryu, though. That's it for now.

I was just using the Red Ryu scummate thing to get reads. I decided to crumb this time so that this doesn't look like back-dooring.



So basically guys, John and T-Block are the scumteam.

Vote: T-Block

 

[John2k4]

Good crumb
Let's go through this post, then...
-
How would I know RR was town?

I would be okay advocating a lynch on RR. I'd even be okay advocating on TB, since I have no "connections" to either of them. I was trying to stray from TB due to his experience, and my leaning town on him from the start.

How are you 100% that a scum TB flip would clear RR? What if TB flips town?

I was "instantly suspicious" of your role because I have never heard of such a thing. What is your role called? Were you bluffing your role or not?

-

 

[Kantrip]

Good crumb
Let's go through this post, then...
-
How would I know RR was town?

Because you are scum and you know who your scummate is and, consequentially, who town is.

I would be okay advocating a lynch on RR. I'd even be okay advocating on TB, since I have no "connections" to either of them. I was trying to stray from TB due to his experience, and my leaning town on him from the start.

I didn't even accuse you of straying away from your scummate, but thanks for admitting to it. If you're so fine on lynching him, why haven't you voted either of them yet?

How are you 100% that a scum TB flip would clear RR? What if TB flips town?

If T-Block were to flip town then Red Ryu would be condemned for reasons I have already stated about the cult leader. One scum would clear the other because I highly doubt they could both be scum together. I also highly doubt there are three scum members.

I was "instantly suspicious" of your role because I have never heard of such a thing. What is your role called? Were you bluffing your role or not?

I was bluffing, and the ability I claimed to have I do not have. Claiming it did get you to reveal your scummate, though, so that's that.

 

[Kantrip]

Tery, Glyph, Gustave; thoughts?

 

[T-block]

loooool Kantrip you gotta be kidding me. You're THAT confident in John being scum? You take the assumption that he's scum as truth in all of this. Or are you just using him as a springboard to mislynches?

There's too many things about this that are off. You don't account for the possibility that John could be town. You make conclusions based on the assumption that John believed the claim, and then turn around and say that he is scum for doubting your claim. Isn't there an inherent contradiction in your argument here?

Everyone should go back and read the interaction between Kantrip and John. Watch how Kantrip set it up to heavily influence John to say that he would be fine with a lynch on RR. It was incredibly manipulative. Let's dive into a hypothetical here. What if John had said he would not lynch RR because if the result were true, RR would be town and there's no reason to lynch a town member (as he should have - if he believed the claim, this is the logical conclusion, but he was influenced by Kantrip to say otherwise)? Kantrip would have pushed that RR was scum, saying that scumJohn would not want RR lynched because it would incriminate him. If Kantrip is scum, he benefits no matter what John does here.

You're setting up mislynches, Kantrip. You pulled a gambit with the hope of incriminating either me or RR (and were guaranteed to be able to incriminate one of us), and you also use it to further your case against John, even though the two conclusions are based on contradicting assumptions. This suggests to me that you are not approaching this logically - your intent behind this gambit was not to determine who was scum; it was intended to mislynch one of me or RR, then set up the mislynch of the other for toMorrow to win the game as scum.