Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

Back Room announced that they wouldn't condone Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard.

And what was/were the reason(s) they gave? I wanna know how the Smashboards High Council of Elders sees this whole Heavy Brawl thing.

 

[rageagainst]

Basically heavy brawl is a response to camping, the part is that it screws around with balance, making some ok characters good, some decent characters awsome, and some bad characters worse.

instead of doing that why don't you make the competitive standard 2v2, balance seems more even like that, and, like heavy brawl, its hard to camp.

1v1 was by far the most popular set up in melee, but in melee camping wasn't so powerful as to be called near broken.

 

[Corigames]

1v1 was by far the most popular set up in melee, but in melee camping wasn't so powerful as to be called near broken.

You say that like it's the only one. What about 64 and every other fighter out there? Now, I'm all for Brawl being different, but I don't think 2 v 2 standard is the way to go. Plus, what happens when you face a TEAM of spammers? Now you AND your friend have to put up with it, at the same time. Awesome.

 

[Iwan]

What about the characters with multiple jumps though? Correct me if I'm wrong, but those characters recoveries are completely destroyed because of heavy gravity. They fall more and more with each jump, and imo....that alone ruins the chances of this working.

 

[Iwan]

You say that like it's the only one. What about 64 and every other fighter out there? Now, I'm all for Brawl being different, but I don't think 2 v 2 standard is the way to go. Plus, what happens when you face a TEAM of spammers? Now you AND your friend have to put up with it, at the same time. Awesome.

And i had to comment on this...

Two spammers? If team attack is ON...which it should be, seeing as how it was the standard for teams in melee...then spammers will just end up hurting their own teammates. Plain and simple. Playing with team attack on prevents spammers and adds more strategy to doubles.

 

[orintemple]

And what was/were the reason(s) they gave? I wanna know how the Smashboards High Council of Elders sees this whole Heavy Brawl thing.

So do I. I assume they would not be OK with it because of tradition or something but I want to see what they are thinking. Of course, they would have to tell us before the first tier list, because the heavy tier list and the normal tier list would be different.

 

[Fawriel]

Most of my ideas are bad, but the really big balloons pop the prettiest.

What if instead of playing one tourney, the same mode throughout, we blended the tourney so we could blend the tiers together?
This could be done by giving characters gravity counterpicks. Based on a set of rules, lower tier characters can get to pick which gravity is played for the match, to their advantage. So since the lower tier characters are given the ability to counterpick gravity, they become more powerful. And if the bottom tier becomes more powerful we come closer to having no tiers at all.

Let me give an example of a little of how this idea would work. As far as i know, Kirby's outlook is mid tier in normal grav. He is severely gimped by Heavy Gravity.

Kirby has a number associated with him. Let's say 7. Any game is going to be played heavy grav unless some characters number is much higher than another.

Kirby plays a really low tier character that is not gimped by gravity, Ganondorf, who has a 6. Ganondorf (just go with this) is so bad that Kirby's gravity number isn't high enough to change the gravity to whatever kirby wants.

So we can see here the kirby's grav number doesn't let him obliterate anyone.

Now Kirby goes up to play Falco. Uh oh. Falco isn't very weakened by heavy gravity. He also is pretty high tier to start with. His gravity number is 2. Kirby has an over-4 difference in gravity. Kirby gets to decide whether high gravity will be on. He turns it off.

Now that example shows how grav numbers could protect the tiers as they are. In other examples, it can make them even better than they already are.

Bowser is a very slow character. Let's say he comes out really ugly on the tier list, and gets a grav number of 15, even though high grav doesn't hurt him. ( i think it helps him, dont really know).

Bowser and the Kirby fight. Normally Kirby would smoke Bowser ten games out of ten. But Bowser has a very high grav number, he chooses to maintain gravity at high (actually, even if his number was seven it would stay high). Now kirby is gimped, bowser gains an advantage, the tier list is even flatter than before.


I think it's a good idea at least. You could give really low grav precedence to the characters who camp well, so the grav is heavy and Capt. Falcons and what not can charge them.

Oh this probably wouldn't take off at all, you would have to recognize character inequalities. Why do i bother?

Unfortunately, that would still require people to learn a game with different physics, it also isn't really possible to accurately decide on ratings for characters... and so on.

In the end, maybe Teams will be more interesting. Gimpy suggested that that will become the standard. Why not.

If that fails, competitive players should probably just stay with Melee and hope for a better next installment.

 

[Corigames]

And i had to comment on this...

Two spammers? If team attack is ON...which it should be, seeing as how it was the standard for teams in melee...then spammers will just end up hurting their own teammates. Plain and simple. Playing with team attack on prevents spammers and adds more strategy to doubles.

You are assuming that the campers are bad at spamming. I know that I could SHPMC with a 2 Samus team and wipe entire stocks without hitting each other. And I know that I can get on a stage like FD with Zelda and falco (Zelda doing Forward B) just spamming to win. The only problem is when someone dies, aside from that, you are in the clear.

Spamming, camping, recovery, and everything else is in 2 v 2 as it was in 1 v1 except now you have more infinites, someone to break you out of combos, someone to help you with combos, and someone to help you back up from your recovery or stop edge-guarding.

 

[gfxdragongod]

normally i would be okay with this but i love online to much =/

 

[rageagainst]

You are assuming that the campers are bad at spamming. I know that I could SHPMC with a 2 Samus team and wipe entire stocks without hitting each other. And I know that I can get on a stage like FD with Zelda and falco (Zelda doing Forward B) just spamming to win. The only problem is when someone dies, aside from that, you are in the clear.

Spamming, camping, recovery, and everything else is in 2 v 2 as it was in 1 v1 except now you have more infinites, someone to break you out of combos, someone to help you with combos, and someone to help you back up from your recovery or stop edge-guarding.

With 2 people doing that indefinately is harder I saw a convincing argument in the tactics board, ill edit my post when i find it.

 

[Papapaint]

What about the characters with multiple jumps though? Correct me if I'm wrong, but those characters recoveries are completely destroyed because of heavy gravity. They fall more and more with each jump, and imo....that alone ruins the chances of this working.

You didn't read the thread.

 

[Iwan]

You didn't read the thread.

I read the majority of it...sorry : /....i've heard about this ongoing discussion of heavy brawl from friends, and i guess they were un-informed. Or just against it so they lied to me. lol.

This does sound like a good idea, but i've yet to even mess around with it. Does it really take adjusting to play with? If i was a melee vet would i feel right at home with heavy brawl? Or what?

If the only noticeable differences are falling acceleration and air time, then this sounds like a good idea...

EDIT**...watched those videos. Looks very, very nice...to say the least.

 

[cobaltblue]

I read the majority of it...sorry : /....i've heard about this ongoing discussion of heavy brawl from friends, and i guess they were un-informed. Or just against it so they lied to me. lol.

This does sound like a good idea, but i've yet to even mess around with it. Does it really take adjusting to play with? If i was a melee vet would i feel right at home with heavy brawl? Or what?

If the only noticeable differences are falling acceleration and air time, then this sounds like a good idea...

EDIT**...watched those videos. Looks very, very nice...to say the least.

Just to keep up with the cons. The problem becomes edge gipping, air game is dead, a couple of mid tier chars become near useless, and characters that rely on air kills are more or less screwed.

As for adjusting it depends on the character. If you were maining say sonic your up-b is now completely useless for recovery and instead you must side-b, jump, get near edge and netural b to ram the stage, and then up b slightly below the stage so that you can grab the edge (cause you can't grab mid jump).

I do not belive there is one char that would make this truly feel like melee. Also not every char requires a complete 180 in gamestyle play.

 

[Iwan]

Just to keep up with the cons. The problem becomes edge gipping, air game is dead, a couple of mid tier chars become near useless, and characters that rely on air kills are more or less screwed.

As for adjusting it depends on the character. If you were maining say sonic your up-b is now completely useless for recovery and instead you must side-b, jump, get near edge and netural b to ram the stage, and then up b slightly below the stage so that you can grab the edge (cause you can't grab mid jump).

I do not belive there is one char that would make this truly feel like melee. Also not every char requires a complete 180 in gamestyle play.

Yea, i was messing around with it last night after i posted that. And....it's a delima.

The game really does play better on the ground with heavy brawl, imo anyway. It really does feel like melee and speeds the game up a lot.

However, i love gimping. I mean, who doesn't? It's a huge, integral part of the game, and playing last night with heavy brawl i realized that using this "mode" would almost completely eliminate gimping.

So it's almost like we'd be sacrificing air game for a more melee like approach game. I mean, it's intriguing and interesting, and i enjoyed it a lot. It reminded me of melee, and the game sped up quite a bit which i loved. But is that worth the expense of an air game in competitive brawl? I'm not really sure, but i'd lean towards "no".

 

[Kufuu]

I don't really like the idea of a custom Brawl being standard. I'll try it out though.

 

[XSilvenX]

Hi, alot of you guys are bad players..just letting you know.

If you lose to a camper then...

QUIT LIFE!!

Done !

 

[Fawriel]

Hi, alot of you guys are bad players..just letting you know.

If you lose to a camper then...

QUIT LIFE!!

Done !

Thank you very much for this insightful reply.

 

[Eternal Neo]

I don't really like the idea of a custom Brawl being standard. I'll try it out though.

Why though? It's clear that the standard game mode was not designed for competitive play or a tournament scene. I don't think anyone can deny this. Sakurai does not want brawl to be a competitive game and did not design the engine with high level competitive play in mind. Was heavy brawl designed for tournament players? Probably not, but the modes are there for us to use so I don't see why the decision has already been made to tie ourselves to a standard that was intentionally designed with casual players in mind.

 

[Ban3]

yeah this is a good idea im gonna go try it now.... hehe

I can't stand campers they always beat me..maybe I will get better if I play with some modifications that make campers less effective...

Hi, alot of you guys are bad players..just letting you know.

If you lose to a camper then...

QUIT LIFE!!

Done !

does this make any sence?

 

[.kR0]

The only major problem I'll see if heavy brawl become popular is all the ******* in crashboards making heavy brawl tier lists.

The drama will explode.

I mean we already have like what, 20 melee vs. brawl threads?

 

[DRaGZ]

Yea, i was messing around with it last night after i posted that. And....it's a delima.

The game really does play better on the ground with heavy brawl, imo anyway. It really does feel like melee and speeds the game up a lot.

However, i love gimping. I mean, who doesn't? It's a huge, integral part of the game, and playing last night with heavy brawl i realized that using this "mode" would almost completely eliminate gimping.

So it's almost like we'd be sacrificing air game for a more melee like approach game. I mean, it's intriguing and interesting, and i enjoyed it a lot. It reminded me of melee, and the game sped up quite a bit which i loved. But is that worth the expense of an air game in competitive brawl? I'm not really sure, but i'd lean towards "no".

It gets rid of gimping? I'm finding it a gazillion times easier to gimp in Heavy Brawl. In fact, I think one of the cons people were pointing out is that it's way too easy to gimp.

 

[DRaGZ]

Hi, alot of you guys are bad players..just letting you know.

If you lose to a camper then...

QUIT LIFE!!

Done !

o_O

You do realize that Overswarm, perhaps one of the campiest R.O.B.s I have ever seen...ever, just won the WiFi Wars tourny, right?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hi, alot of you guys are bad players..just letting you know.

If you lose to a camper then...

QUIT LIFE!!

Done !

I'm with Fawriel on this one.

The exit is thataway. ------------------------>

Smooth Criminal

 

[Doc Chronic]

Why though? It's clear that the standard game mode was not designed for competitive play or a tournament scene. I don't think anyone can deny this. Sakurai does not want brawl to be a competitive game and did not design the engine with high level competitive play in mind. Was heavy brawl designed for tournament players? Probably not, but the modes are there for us to use so I don't see why the decision has already been made to tie ourselves to a standard that was intentionally designed with casual players in mind.

Q.F.T.

Yes i agree with you, the options are there for us to experiment with so why not. Very well said btw.

 

[Rebonack]

Just to keep up with the cons. The problem becomes edge gipping, air game is dead, a couple of mid tier chars become near useless, and characters that rely on air kills are more or less screwed.

As for adjusting it depends on the character. If you were maining say sonic your up-b is now completely useless for recovery and instead you must side-b, jump, get near edge and netural b to ram the stage, and then up b slightly below the stage so that you can grab the edge (cause you can't grab mid jump).

I do not belive there is one char that would make this truly feel like melee. Also not every char requires a complete 180 in gamestyle play.

Edge guarding becomes very useful, yes. At least I think that's what you're saying. But personally I would prefer slightly overpowered gimps to nearly non-existent gimps. Though I'm somewhat baffled by your comments about character's air games getting killed. And to that end air kills.

You can short hop lower. And your full jump covers a distance roughly equivalent to the old short hop. Characters with high reaching air attacks, notably Samus' grappler and Ike's bair, become quite a bit more useful since they aren't sailing over people's heads any longer. If an attack doesn't auto cancel after a short hop any longer then it usually works fine with a full jump. Wario's evil fair poking is a good example of this. Just full hop and it works out fine.

Jigg's air game gets much better. So does Luigi's. It seems like just about everyone's does. The only air gimps that I've noticed can all be remedied by full jumping or simply re-working the timing of attacks. Maybe I missed something. Could you provide some specific examples?

And yes, Sonic gets hammered pretty hard in terms of his recovery, though his improved air game seems to make up for it. Who would the other victims be?

 

[LouisLeGros]

o_O

You do realize that Overswarm, perhaps one of the campiest R.O.B.s I have ever seen...ever, just won the WiFi Wars tourny, right?

I love overswarm, I know most people hate him as a player because of how campy he is... but he has become my hero. Or well one of my heros... Isai, Silent Spectre and Scar are up at the top my heros list for having such awesome Captain Falcons.

 

[RazeveX]

Actually we shouldn't be doing this and I have no idea why you think standard brawl is any more balanced than heavy brawl.

Edit: Jigglypuff is actually much better is heavy brawl since she can acually do aerial combos and wall of pain. In standard brawl she's nearly unplayable. Have you even played the mode or are you just rambling about communism?

Well someone got up on the wrong side of final destination this morning...AND DIED BECAUSE IT WAS HEAVY BRAWL (lol).

I've had the game since japanese release, and i only play heavy brawl when i want to torture myself with lack of control and sd's due to me maining metaknight. So yes, i have EXTENSIVELY played heavy brawl.

I think that sakurai has tried to even out the characters in a way that will last the games entire life cycle; so why the hell would we mess that up now? On a very slight assessment, heavy brawl might seem balanced, but know that it is much, much less balanced than normal brawl.

 

[DRaGZ]

I love overswarm, I know most people hate him as a player because of how campy he is... but he has become my hero. Or well one of my heros... Isai, Silent Spectre and Scar are up at the top my heros list for having such awesome Captain Falcons.

I like OS as well.

 

[Wyvern]

Okay, I've actually played Heavy Brawl now. A few hours against the CPU, to be specific. Here are my observations.


1) The CPU has no frigging idea how to play Heavy Brawl. So keep that in mind as I give you my other impressions.

2) Link is unplayable. And I say this as a long-time Link main. I mean, wow.

3) Samus is pretty cool, though.

4) When you knock people upwards, you don't have to wait as long to be able to try to hit them again. Which is...convenient, I guess. But I fail to see how it helps combos. It's not like the hitstun is any less. The other player can still jump away or airdodge through you just as fast as before. There are a couple of new chainthrows and combos, but it's all very character-specific. A CPU Lucario totally wrecked me once with four or five consecutive fairs, and I managed to chaingrab the forward-B a couple of times when I was experiementing with him, for example. But I'm definitely not seeing the "everyone's combo ability is so much better" thing you people rave about at all the time.

5) The gimping is out of control. I played for two hours and saw maybe two or three non-gimp KOs. Screw spiking...pretty much any aerial landed at any time off the stage seems to be a guaranteed KO. R.O.B. can kill pretty much anyone by tossing them off and doing one fair, and there's nothing they can do about it. Percents barely even seem to matter anymore.


Honestly, I think the main reason a lot of people find Heavy Brawl appealing is the illusion created by number 4. It creates the impression that Brawl is more like Melee, but it seems pretty superficial if you ask me. Yeah, people come down faster, but by the time you're in range of each other, the hitstun is over and you're in the exact same position you would have been in regular Brawl. You might hit them again and keep them in the air, or they might jump away or airdodge through you. Actually, in theory, the second option should be even easier in Heavy. It makes it possible to combo with a few very specific aerials for a few very specific characters, but Link or Bowser or Ganondorf don't magically get combos.

Say I'm playing as R.O.B. in regular Brawl. As R.O.B., I have a pretty sweet defensive game on the ground, so I'm down there messing with my opponent when they finally manage to get a grab on me and throw me upwards. This is bad, because R.O.B. is pretty much defenseless in the air when someone is underneath him. I try to knock them away with dairs and nairs but they're too slow, and I keep getting hit upwards over and over again. I try to airdodge through them to the ground, but I'm so floaty that I still can't make it. This goes on for a while, and then I finally reach the ground after taking a large amount of damage. And since it takes so long for me to fall, this whole exchange takes, I don't know, 20 seconds.

Now let's look at this scenario in Heavy Brawl. I still have barely any shieldstun and my downsmash is still ridiculously good, so I'm still playing defensively and doing pretty well for myself. Then the grab lands and I'm up in the air. Sure, I fall faster, but the hitstun is the same. By the time my opponent and I are in range of each other, we both have the exact same options we did before. So I get hit by the same attacks for the same reasons, probably about the same number of times, and I hit the ground after taking about the same amount of damage. But this time the whole mess only took eight seconds. That's kind of nice, and a bit more fun to watch, but so what? What really changed to a meaningful degree? It LOOKS a bit more like a Melee combo, but it's just an illusion. My opponent doesn't actually have any more combo ability in this situation. It just looks like they do.

I don't see how this is supposed to magically make the game less defensive, either. That's caused mostly by the lack of shield stun, which Heavy Brawl does exactly nothing about. I mean, even if combos DID benefit, what would that solve? What's keeping the camper from shieldgrabbing you into a downthrow and then comboing YOU? In fact, I'd go so far to say that Heavy Brawl, if allowed to develop, would eventually start to promote camping. I mean, I COULD attack you, fight you, build up your percentage to 120 or so, and then KO you out the boundaries of the stage. Or I could stand on the edge, spam projectiles, and if you come over here, I'll shieldgrab you, toss you off the stage, and kill you at like 15% with an unavoidable aerial (since if you attack or dodge, you'll be dead before the animation ends anyway). It's almost as bad as stages with walk-off edges when it comes to camping.

Regular Brawl's edge game works the way it does largely for the sake of character balance, I think. When a fair percentage of KOs reach the stage boundaries, that means things like power and weight MATTER. Bowser will live considerably longer than Sheik, and Bowser will kill considerably sooner than Sheik. He relies entirely on those attributes to function. In Heavy Brawl (much like in Melee), these things don't matter. Bowser's size and strength don't matter when anyone can tap him with an aerial at 40% off the stage and laugh as he falls to his death. The more punishable points there are in his attacks, the more opportunities there are to knock him just past the edge of the stage, where he can be killed at the other player's leisure. And what benefit does he get in return? What use is being able to kill people at 115 instead of 130 when a faster, more maneuverable character can easily start gimping anyone before they reach 50%? We'll be back in Melee's balance arena, where speed is great and power and weight are pretty much worthless by comparison. Except a bunch of new characters will probably reach top tier because they can gimp at zero.

In a nutshell: Heavy Brawl doesn't magically fix camping, the over-reliance on gimp kills has the potential to really mess up the game (especially since you know that the developers didn't even think about balancing this mode in the slightest), and the few benefits it does have don't seem tangible enough to merit destroying a bunch of characters.

 

[cobaltblue]

Edge guarding becomes very useful, yes. At least I think that's what you're saying. But personally I would prefer slightly overpowered gimps to nearly non-existent gimps. Though I'm somewhat baffled by your comments about character's air games getting killed. And to that end air kills.

You can short hop lower. And your full jump covers a distance roughly equivalent to the old short hop. Characters with high reaching air attacks, notably Samus' grappler and Ike's bair, become quite a bit more useful since they aren't sailing over people's heads any longer. If an attack doesn't auto cancel after a short hop any longer then it usually works fine with a full jump. Wario's evil fair poking is a good example of this. Just full hop and it works out fine.

Jigg's air game gets much better. So does Luigi's. It seems like just about everyone's does. The only air gimps that I've noticed can all be remedied by full jumping or simply re-working the timing of attacks. Maybe I missed something. Could you provide some specific examples?

And yes, Sonic gets hammered pretty hard in terms of his recovery, though his improved air game seems to make up for it. Who would the other victims be?

Off stage gimping reachs a point however where one or two good projectiles pretty much means game over. Improvement from brawal's 200+ living? Sure but it is still pretty **** crappy. And if you get nudged off the edge due to blow back, well gg on that stock. On the flip side I LOVE how footstool jumping becomes a kickass meteor.

I can not say if any other chars get hammered hard other than maybe wario, I do know from person play that sonic requires a whole new way of thinking and I believe someone stated earlier in this thread that even wario can be salvaged.

As for aircombing, I think wyvern covered the issues best.

Overall the point I'm trying to get across is the mode is worth trying, but just expect anyone that used vertical kills to get nerfed and to see games center around edge gimping.

 

[DoubleAced]

Melee's days are over now. Stop trying to live in the past. Move on.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Heavy Brawl all the way. If only we could have had Heavy Hit Stun Brawl...sigh.

 

[Ban3]

idk maybe they could...coexist?

 

[Rebonack]

Off stage gimping reachs a point however where one or two good projectiles pretty much means game over. Improvement from brawal's 200+ living? Sure but it is still pretty **** crappy. And if you get nudged off the edge due to blow back, well gg on that stock. On the flip side I LOVE how footstool jumping becomes a kickass meteor.

I can not say if any other chars get hammered hard other than maybe wario, I do know from person play that sonic requires a whole new way of thinking and I believe someone stated earlier in this thread that even wario can be salvaged.

As for aircombing, I think wyvern covered the issues best.

Overall the point I'm trying to get across is the mode is worth trying, but just expect anyone that used vertical kills to get nerfed and to see games center around edge gimping.

The lack of floatyness really changes the way you recover in Heavy Brawl. Normally floating down under DI and they coming up from under the ledge is the best way to go in the normal Brawl, but that doesn't always work as well due to the decrease in the aforementioned floatyness. That, and trying to air dodge when you're even with the level is pretty much suicide for a lot of characters.

The edge-game is certainly more powerful. I would probably compare it to SSB where a solid hit while recovering spelled doom. But as I said before I still prefer that to what we're given in normal Brawl. To make sure someone doesn't come back you practically have to Wall of Pain them off the edge of the screen. And since most attacks fling people away at such high angles they can still just drift back safely with no fear of you actually reaching them for a second attack.

From my experience with Wario in Heavy Brawl you pretty much have to use full jumps to keep his aerials auto-canceling. So it doesn't really help his air game as much as, say, Jiggs.

Eh, I suppose in the end it's more or less clear that it won't be used as the standard in tournaments. So it really comes down to a question of whether or not it's fun.

As for a brief response to Wyvern's comments... Air combos aren't buffed tremendously, though characters with fast air attacks that don't hit people very far (Lucario, Wario, Rob among others) certainly get a benefit. The main help seems to come from combos where the opponent isn't actually getting knocked off the ground far enough to actually have time to respond with an air dodge. It's a minor buff to comboing, but that's all that was really needed to begin with. The ability to get in two or three hits at lowish percentages rather than one.

Heavy Brawl isn't as heavily tilted in favor of offense as Melee was. But it does tilt the balance enough. Also, comboing wasn't the only issue addressed. The other is approach speed, which the increased fall rate and decreased SH height obviously helps.

 

[cobaltblue]

Fair enogh response rebonack. I don't think we were really disagreeing too much however as it seems both of us want heavy to at the very least be treated as a side option at turnaments. I guess my biggest fear seems to be gimping being taken to a whole new level by some crazy pro out there.

But that aside, I do hope the backroom folks give it a try at their turnies and realize game communites can survive with special turny standard options.

 

[Pewgs]

I say we stop arguing and agree 2v2 matches are the competitive scene of the future :D

 

[Corigames]

Melee's days are over now. Stop trying to live in the past. Move on.

Tell that to Nintendo. But, I get the feeling that you wouldn't since you are just another lost soul without your own opinion, blindly following your Shepard tagged with big red letters encased in a, same hue of red, oval. If you can't believe that people can live with an old game, progress it, compete with it, and enjoy it, you have very skewed logic.

 

[Wrath`]

Tell that to Nintendo. But, I get the feeling that you wouldn't since you are just another lost soul without your own opinion, blindly following your Shepard tagged with big red letters encased in a, same hue of red, oval. If you can't believe that people can live with an old game, progress it, compete with it, and enjoy it, you have very skewed logic.

this could be apleid to you, you are following the old regime,

 

[.kR0]

Give it another half-year and heavy brawl might be a solid replacement option.

ATM, everyone is going to be playing brawl like Brawl was meant to play as.

And please, **** comparing **** to melee. It got old really fast.

 

[Fishcake56]

No time atm to try this out myself, but can you adjust the damage ratio once inside heavy brawl?