Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[DRaGZ]

EDIT: I am asking for a pro to post his or her opinion because I have very very recently realized I have dwarfed community influence compared to a respected pro in this community. Thus, I am humbly asking for the pros of this community to post their opinions on this topic and explain why they feel that way. That is all.

I am a massive hypocrite and a douchebag for saying this because, in the past, I was a strong naysayer of Heavy Brawl. But now, I think it may be Brawl's best hope at standing a competitive chance.

Please hear me out before the flaming.

One of the most prevalent and effective strategies in Brawl right now (hell, it's the only strategy with some characters) is camping. The reason camping is so prevalent is because there are many more defensive options than there are offensive options; simply put, it's much easier to camp than it is to approach. Let me pose a few hypotheticals.

We have a Wolf versus an extremely campy Toon Link. Wolf has one of four options: run at Toon Link and do a dash attack, approach Toon Link aerially, RAR Toon Link, or attempt to jump behind Toon Link and catch him by surprise. Of course, none of these will consistently work: the dash attack is far too predictable, the aerials approaches are predictable enough to be countered with a boomerang, and the jumping behind Toon Link is slow enough to be caught with an up-smash or a d-smash. Even if you fastfalled the aerials, it's still much too slow to do much good. Overall, Wolf is in a ****ty position, and a position I've found myself in quite often.

EDIT: And before anyone who decides not to read this whole opening post (just the opening post, is that too much to ask) also decides to flame, yes, I use Wolf often. But I am a R.O.B. and Toon Link main. I don't like that R.O.B. has to camp back to win against campers and I don't like that Toon Link's most effective strategy of camping also happens to be his easiest. Camping wars isn't competition, it's a war of attrition, like putting two mice in separate cages and placing bets on which one starves first. It's slow and boring.

However, with High Gravity turned out, it's a different thing altogether. From what I can gather, High Gravity only seems to affect falling acceleration and sets the max falling speed a bit higher (I could be wrong on this, but this is what I think is going on). The key to this is that fastfalling is now fast, and thus this makes aerial approaches much faster. Going back to Wolf's four options, the dash attack is still stupid, but the aerial attack is now quicker and less predictable, the RAR is much faster, and the landing behind of Toon Link is an extremely good juke.

At the same time, when I am playing as Toon Link, camping is no longer a great way for me to spend my time because an opponent now has several ways to approach me. The key to this is that pure camping is no longer an attractive strategy, thus the game gets mixed up and far more interesting.

I regularly play with a good Toon Link and have always had trouble with him with my Wolf. Now, with Heavy Gravity on, I can actually approach him and freakin' punish him because Wolf's tilts don't knock away Toon Link as much anymore. If anything, the "slamming into the floor" lag actually functions as a kind of hitstun, allowing me to set up a combo freakin' consistently. It's a thing of beauty!

The major point I am making here is this: I am not saying camping is impossible to deal with in Brawl. You can counter with more camping, and some characters are naturally good at dealing with campers. What I am saying is that camping as a predominant strategy is boring for a competitive scene. Heavy Brawl balances the gameplay between offense and defense again, thus the game is fresh and unboring.

Many of you feel sorry for regular Brawl. That is because you are crazy. It has no feelings. And the new Brawl, Heavy Brawl, is mooch better.



UPDATE:

I've been making direct comparison between regular Brawl and Heavy Brawl, specifically with R.O.B. versus Pikachu, two characters whose controlling style does not really change much between the two. I've now realized what the culprit is that makes Heavy Brawl more viable.

Yes, approach is much easier since short-hopped attacks can actually pierce a camper, but the core of the issue has always been "how can we punish once we have approached?" Usually, it boiled down to one or two hits because the attacker could always get away due to the high knockback. But in Heavy Brawl this knockback seems to have been diminished. But it actually hasn't...

Knockback itself hasn't diminished, rather it's been the actual airtime itself that changes! It's because actual attack values from the characters haven't changed at all, including the amount of knockback each character does, but rather it's the acceleration of their falling that prevents them from getting away as easily!

The problem was vertical knockback which, in turn, contributed to horizontal knockback. Since horizontal knockback itself hasn't changed, it's still a very valid method of killing. However, since vertical knockback is now weighted down by accelerated gravity, the vertical knockback itself is both simultaneously fought by the additional gravity, making it go only about 3/4 of what it normally would, while greatly increasing the falling speed. This makes opponents hit the ground faster and allow combos to be set up in a much more realistic fashion.

You can test this out for yourself on Shadow Moses Island with a R.O.B. and Pikachu, once on normal mode and once on Heavy Brawl. Have Pikachu position itself below one of the lowest platforms and do a d-throw with R.O.B. For regular mode, Pikachu's body will actually touch the top platform before coming down. In Heavy Brawl, however, not only will Pikachu miss the top platform (only going about 3/4 the distance it went before), it also falls much much quicker.

Of course, I'm taking into stuff like character-specific accelerations and stuff, but you get my drift.

This is a list of buffs and nerfs to characters people and I have found so far through experimentation.

Buffs

• People die much more quickly (I've seen Wolf go beyond 200% against Jigglypuff, but usually characters die at around 110%) EDIT: Now that I think about it and have played some more, I think it's primarily because we weren't used to the gravity. People actually tend to die more at around 140%. This is good for the competitive environment because we can get more even results. (the game can actually be played with four stocks again with less playtime than regular Brawl at three stocks).
• Spiking/meteor-smashing actually tends to kill now. This is primarily because there seems to be less reaction time. This promotes an aggressive ledgeguarding.
• Edgeguarding actually works because you can no longer just make it back to the ledge by DIing towards the stage like crazy as you recovery, you actually have to plan it out a bit now. This adds a bit more depth.
• Heavy Brawl does not affect vertical kills! It only seems to affect falling acceleration and somewhat seem to increase the max falling speed. EDIT: It technically does affect vertical kills, but not enough to be noticeable (i.e. vertical kills are still made at around 110%)
• Spamming is much, much more punishable, especially if you do attacks that barely lift an opponent off the ground and force them to land (the landing lag acts like some kind of hit stun).
• Approaching with short hops is viable again! RARing is actually consistently useful because you won't go over the opponent's head when they duck, they'll still hit.
• "Slamming into the floor" lag is almost like hitstun when you use medium-strong attacks against an opponent. This stops working after they get into the 70's%, but that's how it was like in the previous Smash games anyway.
• If you rush at a spammy character and jump with an airdodge over him, it's a fairly safe way to get behind your opponent for a fast d-air (so far, I've seen it work well with Wolf and Captain Falcon, it doesn't work with R.O.B. because he runs too slow).
• DeDeDe’s up+B is now a fearsomely powerful recovery move.
• Both Lucas and Lucario now have great approaches with a dashing short-hopped d-air.
• Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost doesn't throw the opponent as high, making for an easier time following up with an attack (I actually managed to do the newbie Raptor Boost to Knee combo consistently!)
• Projectiles don't change behavior: that is, throwing something, like a Gyro, will still have it follow the same arc and fall at around the same speed. I know, because I had already timed R.O.B.'s gyro fairly well in regular Brawl and did not have to adjust at all in Heavy Brawl.
• Believe it or not, Ganondorf is actually buffed because his attacks have just enough knockback to prevent counterattack but close enough for him to somewhat follow. Plus, his train game is unaffected. He still sucks majorly though.
• Wario is MASSIVELY offensively buffed. His aerials are now a force to be reckoned with, and short-hopping them is a great way to stop campers.
• DeDeDe is also insanely buffed (his Nair approach is amazing).
• RARing with Pikachu is his best approach.
• Footstool jumps are now a viable way of killing! This means that even characters without a good spike or a meteor smash can now attempt one, albeit with more risk.
• almightypancake: All the advanced techniques seem to work better now, including airdodging. There's also a much larger punishment for doing them incorrectly, making them more like "techniques" rather than "things you can spam!"
• Diminishing attacks actually seem to make a difference. For instance, a highly aggressive dash-attack spamming R.O.B. will actually continue connecting hits.
• Sonic is now a force to be reckoned with both in on the ground and in the air, allowing him to actually approach opponents with combos in mind. In regular Brawl, his most prevailing strategy was hit-and-run tactics.
• The general trend I have seen in terms of character change is that some characters feel like they haven't changed at all but have many more offensive options. Characters that have had their recoveries nerfed seem to have been buffed elsewhere (for instance, DeDeDe is now immensely powerful and his recovery is actually difficult to deal with, Sonic's aerials are now very strong, etc.)
• It is much easier now to punish for a foolish "falling-off-of-the-edge". In particular, R.O.B., Pit, Metaknight, and Snake are very good for gimping an opponent that is below the ledge and a bit ways away from the stage (literally run off and attack). Bowser, Ganondorf, and DeDeDe, if the players are good enough to recover, are BEASTLY off-the-ledge edge-guarders since their knockback is far more punishing with the higher gravity.
• Ganondorf and DeDeDe can still autocancel about as easily as before.
• Bowser's "grab and punish" game has been greatly boosted. In particular, his down-throw and up-throw are great starters for combos, and his Bowser Slam is more disorienting than before for the opponent.
• .kR0: Characters with amazing bairs but high short hop/****ty fast fall gets buffed like mad
• .kR0: increases the speed of the overall match
• .kR0: slightly easier to string together moves
• .kR0: nerfs the incredibly gay airdodge mechanic (at least when you're off the ledge)

Nerfs

• The biggest problem I can find so far is that Sonic's Up+B is awful (he jump about as high as his regular jumps). This can be remedied by timing side+Bs correctly or using his neutral+B if the opponent is near (this is something the computer showed me)
• Multi-jump characters like Jigglypuff, Pit, Metaknight, etc. are hampered, so their jumping recovery mostly consists of slightly elevating horizontal movement. DeDeDe is the most noticeably hampered in this aspect.
• Autocancelling is more difficult. It is still possible with Ganondorf's u-air (very easy) and his n-air (harder), but I haven't been able to do autocancels with Bowser.
• .kR0: Camping on Final D is still gay (can be considered worse due to the less height of short hops) [DRaGZ: I personally think this is disputable, but okay]
• .kR0: Momentum based recoveries (Sonic, D3, Ike's >B, Samus, Links/Toon ,Diddy, etc) gets nerfed like ****
• .kR0: Characters can't short hop-fastfall some of their moves (Ike's nair)
• .kR0: The gay kind of gimping comes back (Rob's bthrow/fthrow->fair is a instant stock on most characters. Nothing you really do since airdodging isn't an option anymore. You fall too fast)

Neutral Stuff

• Toon Link's up+B is severely hindered, and it only seems to work close as normal when you do it right after you second jump since it uses the momentum of that jump. Edit: I’ve realized that this is not true. Toon Link still has a lot of DI influence in the air, so he’s still in relatively good shape in terms of recovery.
• The Halberd's laser no longer rack's up damage uncontrollable: you can actually DI away from it and you'll have only taken 6-12% damage. It's no longer a problem!
• Diddy's Up+B is tricker to work: You have to KNOW how much he can go after a specific amount of charge and then aim it directly under the ledge because you don't have enough time anymore to just DI to the ledge. This requires a bit of practice, but after a while you recover consistently. His Forward+B is also now far more useful in recovering.
• Jigglypuff is nearly unchanged. She can still make it all the way to the other side of Final Destination by traveling below it. She can also Wall of Pain really effectively now.

This is a list that jugabro created comparing jumping heights between Heavy Brawl and Regular Brawl.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4225629&postcount=196

This is an analysis of how recoveries work for specific characters in Heavy Brawl

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4232490&postcount=270

Also, if you're worried about your autocancelled moves:

Alright, this is something I think should be put in the first post:

Automatic L-cancelling

For some reason, everyone seems to think that the automatic lag-canceling of moves has somehow disappeared with more gravity. This is not the case. Any move which lag-canceled before still lag cancels after switching to heavy gravity--in all cases, the cancel is more noticeable. Moves like Marth's Fair, Wolf's Bair, Pika's Bair, etc. are now quite effective combo starters and chain starters.

No, I don't hate Brawl. I LOVE BRAWL. That's why I want it to prosper. I've already posted two other threads on how to stop this problem of camping:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158342
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158268

But this option negates the need for that kind of excessive prioritization against camping because camping simply isn't nigh invulnerable anymore.

Also, if anyone else is trying this out, please post what you've discovered so far. Please, at least try it out before flaming me. With every flame on the Internet, God beats a kitten.

Also, just to make it clear what we're trying to do here:

Alright, here goes:

We are not advocating this because we suck at brawl. We are not advocating this because we hate brawl. We are not advocating this because we think brawl sucks. We are not advocating this because we wanted melee 2.0. We are not advocating this because there's no wavedashing/l-cancelling/whathaveyou. We are not advocating this because we're sad. We are not advocating this because we played the game twice and didn't like it.

This is from almost two months of observations from highly competitive players regarding the nature of brawl, its histun and superior tactics, its simple learning curve and emphasis on players enjoying the game whether they win or lose (a wonderful idea, but has nothing to do with competition).

People are searching desperately for ATs and exploits and glitches and whatnot... but ultimately, all it takes is a little more menu selection to increase the competitive viability of the game.

Also, I think we're focusing too much on the idea of "camping". A ton of posters who think they're beating good campers are debating because they don't understand what it is we're actually opposing.

The problem is that Brawl favors the defender overwhelmingly. Between two players of equal skill, the defensive player is always at an advantage due to the following reasons:

1. Powershielding. Much easier in brawl, much, much faster in brawl. There has yet to be an AT with more metagame significance.

2. Shieldgrabs. Most characters have an absurdly long shield-grab. You simply can't approach someone on the ground if they are shielding (and not a moron).

3. Rolling/Sidestepping. These are significantly sped up, and allow for a character to get out of a high-stress situation rather easily.

4. Low hitstun+high knockback+floatiness. There is absolutely no real concept of punishment. That is to say, the defending player has the advantages listed above. If they screw up, the situation simply resets. The defender isn't punished much at all. They're knocked nice and far, too far to chain, and then they're back in an advantageous position.

This is true theoretically and anecdotally. Shield lag is much lower than attack lag. Hitstun and floatiness mean that any combo is simply an opponent making poor decisions. Between equally skilled players, this does not happen.

Mindgames do not enter into play, simply because there are SO FEW attacking options, and each one is visible a mile away. Very few characters have short hoppable aerials, and those that do tend to do much better jumping out of shield to retaliate vs. an agressor. You know that an attacker can A: Shield B: Grab C: Attack. The latter two you see from a mile away, and the first just leads to two defensive players.

No one's saying that every good player right now camps. But mathematically, and in practice, being the defensive player puts you at a distinct advantage. Considering no one wants to be at a disadvantage when they're playing for money, tournaments will consist of people playing defensively. Consistently playing defensively is camping.

Camping is not projectiles.
Camping can happen up close.
Camping is simply playing purely defensively. It's the smart move right now.

The argument that something will "happen" to get rid of this disgusting defensive advantage is entirely invalid.

This is something happening. This is a change to the game. This gets rid of the overly-powerful defense. It allows for more approach options. It allows for punishment. It allows for edgegames.

If this were an advanced technique, people would be all over it. But for some reason, people would prefer for us to break the game rather than play within the game's creation.

I suppose I have one more thing to say before I retire.

Far too many people seem to be under the impression that those who favor Heavy Brawl do so because camping is 'unbeatable'. Nothing could be further from the truth. Camping isn't unbeatable, rather it provides the greatest benefit (the most damage to your opponent) while placing yourself at the least risk.

In other words camping is the best method to rack up more damage than your opponent does.

This is all a direct result of the relative weakness of both approach and punishment. Learning how to 'get around' camping won't stop it from granting better risk/reward than offensive strategies. Since camping is the best way to win and many players don't like camping Heavy Brawl is suggested as a way to balance offense and defense and thus make the game deeper and ostensibly more fun.

Personally, as a non-competitive player, I enjoy Heavy Brawl because it allows edge guarding to be a viable strategy. The fact that most characters could recover from being punted in mid-air several times and still just float back to the ledge is annoying. And before anyone wants to point out that I should just play a different game if I don't like it I think I'll say in advance that I would prefer to simply use one of the myriad options for granting variety to game play. Namely Heavy Brawl.

I think these three quotes sum up what I've been trying to say far better than anything I've been doing.

UPDATE: This is what's going to happen if we stick with regular Brawl:

Gimpyfish: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158791

And this is what we need to do to keep this community going:

almightypancake: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=159410
almightypancake: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=159643

I'm also not the only one to have supported this (and most certainly not the first to have thought of it). Here are some topics from the past that also support this idea, all of which, unfortunately, was met with much vilification without impartial thought:

SGX: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141682
WIGI: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154387
Solid Moose: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=151300
Dark-Pikachu-0: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=148336
SheerMadness (I owe you an apology...): http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142339
CHUK: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141935

In the thread with SheerMadness, I act like an embarassing idiot.

Also, videos that show off Heavy Brawl in action.

Human playing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xosSI_wCJA8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iomUOudEybs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8OCFl6EILs

Human vs. CPU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd-dJj0IM_4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XMljvCOZ9WQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jthGTYJycMo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tzJomfJd6rw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgfW_-w9GcM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfejR61ulIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb6oxOLmNBo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9LgtlrsTjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o3SqCoKcpY

EDIT: Also...

IT WAS ALL THE PINK REAPERR'S IDEA. I am a PLAGIARIST.
No but seriously, I got the idea of trying this out again from one of ThePinkReaperr's posts in Scar's thread, and he apparently got it from some other random Japanese guy. Circle of life...or good ideas I guess.

 

[tafutureboy]

Could work....but it eliminates online tourneys, I dont think Heavy brawl is an option online (or is it?)

but I've been defeated by campy people too (Pit is the worst)....

 

[Papapaint]

I saw your post in Scar's thread, and tried it out. I agree, this should be the new competitive standard. It helps far more than it hurts.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

 

[DRaGZ]

Could work....but it eliminates online tourneys, I dont think Heavy brawl is an option online (or is it?)

but I've been defeated by campy people too (Pit is the worst)....

There's no real way to take online tournament beyond a semi-serious attitude: lag is just far too big of an issue. Trust me, I used to be part of the online tournament scene in Starsiege waaaaaay before competitive gaming was huge, and it never really got anything beyond friendlies and non-serious "ladder matches" because lag is always a huge issue when it comes to impartiality.

 

[Papapaint]

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

Get that crap out of this thread. This has nothing to do with that.

 

[J0K3R]

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

Never heard that before, lol

 

[DRaGZ]

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

This is the exact attitude I had when I saw the first Heavy Brawl posts.

But then I realized the game was very campy. At first I thought "hmm, maybe this is just the way we're playing."

And then I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj6ZLFjtNVI

Do you want that to be the competitive standard? A spam-fest? God****it, I don't.

The only reason crap like that flies is because the approaches are too slow and thus easily countered by a projectile. Heavy Brawl speeds up approaches by making aerials quick, and the extra gravity lowers knockback which increases combo potential which increases the punishment game. Heavy Brawl is a good idea for competitive Brawl, otherwise we're gonna end up with a spamfest that will be the laughingstock of the entire fighting game community.

 

[LavisFiend]

I still don't like the idea of using a custom Brawl as the standard, but that is just me.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Except that with heavy brawl characters that rely on the air time from a shorhop to land w/o lag are screwed.

 

[Papapaint]

Except that with heavy brawl characters that rely on the air time from a shorhop to land w/o lag are screwed.

They are in the minority, and most of them still have plenty of usable short hopped aerials.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

They are in the minority, and most of them still have plenty of usable short hopped aerials.

I cant imagine what ddedede could do...

 

[Yokipi]

Get that crap out of this thread. This has nothing to do with that.

While you guys argue over that and determine what's best, I think I'll go play Brawl now.

A long time ago, I always thought that competitions were meant to determine who was best at playing it, but after Melee, I found out it's who's better at figuring out combos, glitches, and exploiting them perfectly. >.> I'd rather just play for fun, and play other people once in a while.

 

[M.K]

Get that crap out of this thread. This has nothing to do with that.

Get over yourself. He has the most valid point in this entire thread. It's a new game, with new mechanics, and you aren't taking the time to get used to it. Get the **** over yourself and face the facts.

 

[pirkid]

I still don't like the idea of using a custom Brawl as the standard, but that is just me.

Agreed.

A lot of characters get gimped, most affected are their aerials and recovery. More characters have advantages through fast-falling, and I find that it balances the game in a wrong way.

As you will know, anyone is free to play the game however they please. The point is that competitive scenes will not change to Heavy Brawl so that some characters are gimped and overall gameplay style is changed. If you wish to play Heavy Brawl for the rest of your career, no one is stopping you.
But I doubt you will change the whole competitive scene, heck, SWF is such a small part of the worldwide Smash community that trying to change something like this will only make a ripple.

 

[DRaGZ]

Except that with heavy brawl characters that rely on the air time from a shorhop to land w/o lag are screwed.

Actually, I've found that Ganondorf, at least him, has been doing a bit better: on average, after I got the timing of his attacks down again, I've been getting one-two stocked in Heavy Brawl as opposed to 2-3 stocked in regular Brawl.

I think it might be due to the fact that the knockback from his attacks isn't just far enough to allow an approach for one more hit. Usually, when I d-air with Ganondorf and hit an opponent in regular Brawl, they can get away safely and I have to work again to get another hit. But in Heavy Brawl it send up a bit above me just enough so that I can usually get in a u-air if I do it fast enough.

Of course, this is no substitute for l-cancelling, but it's all I can muster up with the sour-*** lemons Sakurai has given me. (is trying to pour on as much sugar as he can)

 

[Yoshistar64]

Get over yourself. He has the most valid point in this entire thread. It's a new game, with new mechanics, and you aren't taking the time to get used to it. Get the **** over yourself and face the facts.

A game can be played however the player feels like.

Playing competitive Melee for a while, I think Heavy Gravity is the way to go.

 

[Papapaint]

Get over yourself. He has the most valid point in this entire thread. It's a new game, with new mechanics, and you aren't taking the time to get used to it. Get the **** over yourself and face the facts.

Shenanigans. Even if that were true, then who are you to stop it? Thanks mom.


I've been incredibly patient. Scar's thread is FULL of well-thought posts by me, me trying hard to explain where we're coming from, which is NOT the "melee 2.0" desire. And then people like you come in and flame us for our observations and attempts to advance the competitive scene.

 

[DRaGZ]

Agreed.

A lot of characters get gimped, most affected are their aerials and recovery. More characters have advantages through fast-falling, and I find that it balances the game in a wrong way.

As you will know, anyone is free to play the game however they please. The point is that competitive scenes will not change to Heavy Brawl so that some characters are gimped and overall gameplay style is changed. If you wish to play Heavy Brawl for the rest of your career, no one is stopping you.
But I doubt you will change the whole competitive scene, heck, SWF is such a small part of the worldwide Smash community that trying to change something like this will only make a ripple.

I haven't seen anyone truly gimped in a bad way so far. Try it yourself and you'll see. Sure, Metaknight and Pit have to work a little harder to make it back, but they already had it sooooooo easy.

And DeDeDe has NO problem at all, WHATSOEVER. The guy who I play regularly who uses Toon Link used DeDeDe a lot before Toon Link was unlocked. He tried him out, and it turns out that DeDeDe functions very similarly in Heavy Gravity once you get the timing the down. The most noticeably difference is that he no longer has as much vertical recovery in terms of his jumps, but his Up+B more than makes up for it: it's ABSURDLY fast, and it's hard to predict where exactly it's going to land anymore, making it an actually deadly way to push yourself back onto the stage. You have nothing to worry about when it comes to DeDeDe.

EDIT: Plus, a fast-falled DeDeDe nair is a thing to be reckoned with. Oh my GOD it's deadly.

 

[Kirio]

I might be reading in between the lines here, but what I saw was "I keep losing to my friend unless I play in a different, nonstandard mode. I cannot adapt to a new game as well as he can so I think it should be changed to my advantage."

Perhaps I need glasses.

 

[pirkid]

I haven't seen anyone truly gimped in a bad way so far. Try it yourself and you'll see. Sure, Metaknight and Pit have to work a little harder to make it back, but they already had it sooooooo easy.

And DeDeDe has NO problem at all, WHATSOEVER. The guy who I play regularly who uses Toon Link used DeDeDe a lot before Toon Link was unlocked. He tried him out, and it turns out that DeDeDe functions very similarly in Heavy Gravity once you get the timing the down. The most noticeably difference is that he no longer has as much vertical recovery in terms of his jumps, but his Up+B more than makes up for it: it's ABSURDLY fast, and it's hard to predict where exactly it's going to land anymore, making it an actually deadly way to push yourself back onto the stage. You have nothing to worry about when it comes to DeDeDe.

I'll take your word for it, and try it out tomorrow.

But, to me, it feels weird, playing Special Brawl as the norm, even if it's only one option your changing. Like your changing the whole game forever.

Just me, I suppose.

 

[Anarkex]

Y'know, at this point, why even bother? Just go back to Melee, all. There's no reason trying to cope when you know what you really want. Are the six-summat new characters that worth it?

I'm not debating whether your point has merit. Changing around the game settings gives you an opportunity to play differently, and that's always a good thing when it discourages what appears to be the new preferred style, turtling and spamming projectiles like a bum. I'm seriously wondering why anyone even cares about making Brawl a "legitimate competitive game" in whatever sense the term makes. Why not just go back to Melee where everything is exactly the way you want it?

 

[M.K]

Shenanigans. Even if that were true, then who are you to stop it? Thanks mom.


I've been incredibly patient. Scar's thread is FULL of well-thought posts by me, me trying hard to explain where we're coming from, which is NOT the "melee 2.0" desire. And then people like you come in and flame us for our observations and attempts to advance the competitive scene.

For one, I have not ever flamed you. I don't wish to make an argument, I just want people to listen to me for once.
And what is your definition of "advance", is it to manipulate, to water down, and to hamper? This isn't the way to go.

 

[RazeveX]

Get that crap out of this thread. This has nothing to do with that.

actually, i think you'll find it has everything to do with this thread. Brawl is a NEW GAME and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. Why try and fix something thats not broken? Because you don't like change?

Heres how i see it.

(note that "you" refers to everyone in favor of making pro-heavy brawl the norm for competitive play collectively)

I accuse you of wanting the game to be melee 2.0.

If you agree, then too bad. Go and play melee.

Although, i'm quite sure you'll say no. Well then why? To do more combos? To kill at higher percents?

Why not play metal brawl with super spicy curry then? It's the exact same kind of modification just on a larger scale. The only reason you can deny it is because its different and not the way we do things around here, proving my point that you want melee 2.0, something that is familiar.

*awaiting rebuttal*

 

[Papapaint]

Alright, here goes:

We are not advocating this because we suck at brawl. We are not advocating this because we hate brawl. We are not advocating this because we think brawl sucks. We are not advocating this because we wanted melee 2.0. We are not advocating this because there's no wavedashing/l-cancelling/whathaveyou. We are not advocating this because we're sad. We are not advocating this because we played the game twice and didn't like it.

This is from almost two months of observations from highly competitive players regarding the nature of brawl, its histun and superior tactics, its simple learning curve and emphasis on players enjoying the game whether they win or lose (a wonderful idea, but has nothing to do with competition).

People are searching desperately for ATs and exploits and glitches and whatnot... but ultimately, all it takes is a little more menu selection to increase the competitive viability of the game.

 

[DRaGZ]

I might be reading in between the lines here, but what I saw was "I keep losing to my friend unless I play in a different, nonstandard mode. I cannot adapt to a new game as well as he can so I think it should be changed to my advantage."

Perhaps I need glasses.

Actually, that's not true. I beat him quite often if I use R.O.B., I just find it saddening that only R.O.B. has a real way of dealing with a spammy Toon Link, and the counter-tactics is basically trying to spam back to force an opening.

Listen, I'm not saying I didn't adapt to Brawl. If you want to challenge that, play me online anytime, I'll show you how much I've "not adopted".

It's that i'm trying to think of ways to get around this campy fad we're seeing in Brawl, which is a fad that would otherwise be here to stay because of the way the game mechanics work. Here's some other threads I've made trying to point out this issue, specifically by trying to understand how specific stages help out/hinder campers and how certain-character match-ups can handle/fight camping:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158342
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158268

And please don't think I hate Brawl either.

Please, get it through your head. I LOVE BRAWL. I AM EXTREMELY PRO BRAWL. I just want this game to survive in the competitive realm, and I honestly think that now, despite my previous assertions like the most of you who did not like the idea of making Heavy Brawl the competitive standard, I now think Heavy Brawl is the only way the competitive Brawl community is going to relish this game.

 

[LavisFiend]

Y'know, at this point, why even bother? Just go back to Melee, all. There's no reason trying to cope when you know what you really want. Are the six-summat new characters that worth it?

I'm not debating whether your point has merit. Changing around the game settings gives you an opportunity to play differently, and that's always a good thing when it discourages what appears to be the new preferred style, turtling and spamming projectiles like a bum. I'm seriously wondering why anyone even cares about making Brawl a "legitimate competitive game" in whatever sense the term makes. Why not just go back to Melee where everything is exactly the way you want it?

Because that would be too easy of a thing to do.

That, and they really want the game to succeed competitively, cause they like it.

*shrug

 

[Papapaint]

actually, i think you'll find it has everything to do with this thread. Brawl is a NEW GAME and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. Why try and fix something thats not broken? Because you don't like change?

Heres how i see it.

(note that "you" refers to everyone in favor of making pro-heavy brawl the norm for competitive play collectively)

I accuse you of wanting the game to be melee 2.0.

If you agree, then too bad. Go and play melee.

Although, i'm quite sure you'll say no. Well then why? To do more combos? To kill at higher percents?

Why not play metal brawl with super spicy curry then? It's the exact same kind of modification just on a larger scale. The only reason you can deny it is because its different and not the way we do things around here, proving my point that you want melee 2.0, something that is familiar.

*awaiting rebuttal*

Go to scar's thread and read the key posts he lists, especially Cactuar's explanation of what makes a good fighting game.

**** it. I'll go get it myself.

 

[Papapaint]

Because that would be too easy of a thing to do.

That, and they really want the game to succeed competitively, cause they like it.

*shrug

Truth truth truth truth truth. Maximum truth. Holy god.

I love Brawl. It's not competitive. I want it to be, because I love the game.

 

[Papapaint]

Scar asked me to come in and explain the fighting game concept in regard to the actual mechanisms behind competitive play. It general fighting games, the entire engine is boiled down to two things:

The Push and Pull: This is where we encounter the term "mind games" most often. It is everything you do to manipulate your opponent, control space on the stage, creating openings to enable you to land either individual blows or combo starters, how you react and pressure shields, etc.

The Punishment: The end result of all push and pull games. Ranging from individual hits to death combos.

In smash, we still have the same basic fighter concept, and are given an additional component:

The Edge: Encompasses all things related to killing your opponent off the sides and bottom of the stage through guarding the edge. This is where we see gimping most often.

For the Smash series, we have seen the balance shift between the push and pull and the punishment.

In 64, there was a heavy reliance on the combo game, making the push and pull less important than being able to consistently death combo the enemy. The only real importance of the push and pull was to make sure you could land one hit before the enemy. (This is a slightly overstated )

In Melee, there was a balance between the push and pull, and the combo game was significantly more balanced with the addition of DI and the reduction of shield stun. There were so many options regarding movement available that the push and pull became equally important as being able to properly execute the punishment.

In Brawl, we see a huge imbalance in the gameplay. The push and pull game has become far more important than the punishment game, as there is such a weak overall combo system. The problem here is that, while they made the push and pull game so much more important, they slowed down the overall game play and removed many of the movement options, and even inserted an unremoveable random variable (tripping) to further gimp movement. Because of this slower pace, the game becomes boring to watch, as we spend more time in the push and pull, then when we manage to initiate the punishment, there is an epic anti-climactic moment because the opponent can't be punished to an extent that would be fair for their mistake. The game is so oriented towards rewarding camping that, competitively, we will likely see projectile characters stand as far away as possible, then shoot as many things as possible until the opponent approaches, at which point they will exchange very little damage, then resume camping. Close range characters have had their options reduced, as players are punished for approaching by running(your only options from run are to dash attack, grab, or jump. Shielding from run puts you at a disadvantage due to the removal of the first frame running shield and the new lagged shield.), and most characters have a disadvantage by approaching from above. Shield grabbing has been upgraded, given the very small amount of shield hit stun from any move, and at the same time ruined because of the inability to combo out of grab, aside from the few characters that now have nearly skill-less chaingrabs.

I will stop at this point, only because the my purpose here is to explain the imbalance of Brawl and why the mechanisms in this game prevent it from being reasonably viable on a competitive level. Sure, they may continue to play the game in tournament and it may even become big, but it doesn't mean it should be. Brawl has ruined all of the work that we, the melee community, put into getting Smash recognized as a fighting game. Brawl is a platformer party game, not a fighting game.

If anyone disagrees with anything, please feel free to respond with your argument so that I can ruin you. I would further elaborate on what I already have, but I'm starving, and it has probably affected the coherence of some of this post.


Edit: @AlphaZealot: The focus from too many players on too many arguments has been on removal of techniques. All of that is not important. This is.

It has nothing to do with melee 2.0. It has everything to do with this.

Also, people keep giving me crap, saying I was expecting melee 2.0. Here's my post describing how I feel about brawl:

First of all: I highly agree. Melee is currently far, far more competitive than brawl. This is fact.

However, I do have one point to make. I have read most of the pro-melee arguments extensively, and I've been mulling over everything quite a bit. I feel as though I can elaborate on the two blanket statements Scar refers to in his original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scar
1) It's not Melee 2.0, you can't compare the two games
This is silly. We are debating "which game is more competitive," so we must compare the two games. Arguing that this is irrelevant doesn't make any sense, since it's clearly important to competitive Melee players. Our feelings are important, too.

This may be a valid argument elsewhere, but IT IS NOT VALID IN THE CONTEXT OF MELEE VS BRAWL.

2) Brawl has only been out for a short amount of time, how long did it take to find Melee ATs
This would be relevant if the two games experienced similar launches. They didn't. Melee had a few SSB64 players who knew about z-cancelling, and there was no central intelligence like SmashBoards to really unite the community and combine everyone's knowledge.

Now, at Brawl's launch, there are thousands of players working day and night to find something - ANYTHING to abuse. There were even players doing this in early February, immediately after the game was released in Japan. So far, nothing of note has advanced the metagame to anything to be considered remarkable.
Now then, I have a few points I'd like to make:

1. The significant point of Brawl =/= Melee 2.0 is the different engine. It's all well and good to think that players are looking at this game and trying to break it, find holes, find ATs, find better punishments, etc., but there's an implicitly hindering factor: all of these players are melee players. We are locked into a mindset when it comes to smash.

By this, I am not saying "More ATs are coming, stop hating lulz." I'm saying that we will find a way to break this engine so that we've got a better system of punishment. The problem is that we aren't--and won't--looking at it the right way. Melee and Brawl are miles from each other--it's like asking someone who plays Street Fighter II to discover advanced techs in MVC2 in one month. Better yet, it's like asking a MVC:2 player to evolve Brawl.

I think that when we do break the engine, it's not going to come from melee players trying to figure out how to cancel lag, or to follow up a throw. It's not going to come from trying to cancel momentum or slide wildly around the stage. It's going to come from some dip**** at a tournament accidentally pulling off some ridiculous combo/finisher/punishment in the most unorthodox way imaginable.

For example: think about Wavedashing. Let's assume for a second that Melee's launch was in the same situation as Brawl's launch. Even if there were thousands of people trying to abuse Melee's engine, it would be quite a long time before someone really made the connection between airdodging and ground momentum. It would be even longer before someone discovered the significance.

I'll use one more metaphor: take the transition from Counterstrike 1.6 to CS: Source. You had literally hundreds of thousands of players trying to "break" source. Far more players than were working on Brawl these past couple of months. I was in a huge clan at the time, and we tried really hard to switch to source. However, the new, slightly different aiming system, the new hit delay, the larger recoil and faster red block recovery... it all pointed to a much less competitive game. Even with hundreds of thousands of people working on it, it wasn't until almost a year later that some of CS:Source's competitive value was uncovered. People realized how to abuse the new aiming system, and it's entirely different from CS:1.6. People learned how to use grenades with the new red block, and these unorthodox methods of playing opened up Source as a competitive game again.

Please note that I'm not saying things like "ITS NOT MELEE 2.0" or "THE GAMES ONLY BEEN OUT FOR LYKE TWO DAYS". I'm providing past examples. I do agree that so far, Melee has proven more competitive than Brawl. How that will play out over the long term... well, it might turn out like CounterStrike, or it might be like Halo to Halo 2.

I do not think the community needs to say "Melee is more competitive. Let's play Brawl knowing that." They need to say "Melee is currently more competitive. How can we make Brawl equally so?"

 

[M.K]

Alright, here goes:

We are not advocating this because we suck at brawl. We are not advocating this because we hate brawl. We are not advocating this because we think brawl sucks. We are not advocating this because we wanted melee 2.0. We are not advocating this because there's no wavedashing/l-cancelling/whathaveyou. We are not advocating this because we're sad. We are not advocating this because we played the game twice and didn't like it.

This is from almost two months of observations from highly competitive players regarding the nature of brawl, its histun and superior tactics, its simple learning curve and emphasis on players enjoying the game whether they win or lose (a wonderful idea, but has nothing to do with competition).

People are searching desperately for ATs and exploits and glitches and whatnot... but ultimately, all it takes is a little more menu selection to increase the competitive viability of the game.

So, because a couple of people don't like the mechanics, and because MORE people can get used to the game, you can't play it as is? Play Melee, and "OMG it's just like MELEE!". No way.

Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY is making you play Brawl. NOBODY. Play Melee, we just don't care.

 

[DRaGZ]

Y'know, at this point, why even bother? Just go back to Melee, all. There's no reason trying to cope when you know what you really want. Are the six-summat new characters that worth it?

I'm not debating whether your point has merit. Changing around the game settings gives you an opportunity to play differently, and that's always a good thing when it discourages what appears to be the new preferred style, turtling and spamming projectiles like a bum. I'm seriously wondering why anyone even cares about making Brawl a "legitimate competitive game" in whatever sense the term makes. Why not just go back to Melee where everything is exactly the way you want it?

I don't want Melee. Y'know what, to be honest, I prefer Brawl either way. I'm not terribly competitive myself, hell I've only been to five tournaments. But what I don't want to see is this wonderful Smash Bros. community dying because, of all things, people don't like the newest thing.

I think the primary distinction to make here is that Brawl is not a bad game, but, in the eyes of the competitive gaming community, Brawl might be a lost cause.

Here's a post by Gimpyfish, someone who used to be, perhaps, the largest proponent of Brawl amongst the pros, and now, because of what we know, this is what he thinks.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152758

And I have to say, I came to the same conclusions myself before I even read this thread.

I'm not trying to hack the game or anything like that. This is something that's built into the game. You literally have to press two more buttons to get this option to turn on, and it ultimately makes the game more competitive by balancing offense with defense; in other words, making sure that the defensive side, the extreme form of which is camping, doesn't always win out in the end.

Again, I'd like to point out that I LOVE BRAWL. I don't want to see it die in the competitive gaming community. If I just wanted Brawl to be Melee, I'd just play Melee. ****, Captain Falcon sucks in this game, so if all I really cared about was how great my original Captain Falcon was I'd go back to Melee in a heartbeat. But that's not why at all.

It's like asking why I'd travel all the way to Wendy's way off campus when I could just have on-campus cheeseburgers instead: I'm sick of on-campus food, I want my god**** baconator, but I don't want them to use the ****ty flaked bacon you put in salads. I want the real bacon. Campy Brawl is the bacon bits. Heavy Brawl, as far as I can tell, is better bacon (I'm not sure if it's the real thing yet).

Yes, this is an awful analogy. I'm sorry.

 

[-sonny-]

So, because a couple of people don't like the mechanics, and because MORE people can get used to the game, you can't play it as is? Play Melee, and "OMG it's just like MELEE!". No way.

Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY is making you play Brawl. NOBODY. Play Melee, we just don't care.

Did you even read his post properly? Seriously.

These guys are making very good points, and I'm seriously starting to agree with them. Brawl is a really fun game, I'm not going to deny that. NOBODY here is. It's just that the true competitive scene feels that Brawl just isn't very ... competitive and if going through a couple more menus can help to achieve a more competitive game, then I really don't see a problem with it.

The only thing that sucks is that you can't do Heavy Brawl online. =/

 

[Unexplanetory]

Yeah I'm sorry but I'm content with the new Brawl mechanics, something new to get used too. Melee was fun and is fun and we can all go back to it whenever, but Brawl is Brawl. I am all for playing in both settings normal and heavy, but I don't see competitions being held in this way.

Everyone is complaining about campers (Which I have had no problems with mind you) But hey the games been out what 2 weeks? I guess everyones already a pro and figured out everything.

 

[Papapaint]

So, because a couple of people don't like the mechanics, and because MORE people can get used to the game, you can't play it as is? Play Melee, and "OMG it's just like MELEE!". No way.

Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY is making you play Brawl. NOBODY. Play Melee, we just don't care.

for ****s sake.

I'm far more pro-brawl than most of the **** melee players. I'm incredibly pro-brawl. I want a successful competitive scene. I was 7th on Wifi wars for a while until I got tired of just spamming, camping, and retreating and started trying out new, crazy strategies.

I'm speaking from experience and from desire. I'm not just some poster saying "NARGGGG... <3 MELEE BRAWLSUX." I want Brawl to succeed. I want us to have some respect in the competitive scene--right now, we're a joke. The competitive players are all looking for exploits and glitches... why not just this? It's simple, keeps ALL of brawl's major changes (including the physics system, minus floatiness), emphasizes some of the effects people keep touting as Brawl's deep thinking (the degrading knockback, multiple airdodges, etc.) and STILL provides for a completely different game than melee.

 

[DRaGZ]

So, because a couple of people don't like the mechanics, and because MORE people can get used to the game, you can't play it as is? Play Melee, and "OMG it's just like MELEE!". No way.

Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY is making you play Brawl. NOBODY. Play Melee, we just don't care.

No actually, what I'm saying is that FEWER people will want to get into Brawl competitively. Peep this:

At first, Brawl when it came out was AMAZING. Sure, there was no l-cancelling and junk, but I didn't care, and most pros didn't care because it was new and awesome.

Then the pros (not me, because I'm not a pro) found out that Brawl has far too many defensive options and a lack of offensive options. What does this eventually boil down to? Camping wars. No fighting game is fun with camping wars. Strategic shooting games are fun with camping wars (e.g. America's Army), but even most shooters SUCK when people just camp-kill. It's not fun, it's boring and repetitive. But that's what Brawl, in the competitive scene, is slowly turning into.

Do you honestly want that? Please, honestly answer me, do you want Brawl to be a camp-fest?

 

[Papapaint]

Yeah I'm sorry but I'm content with the new Brawl mechanics, something new to get used too. Melee was fun and is fun and we can all go back to it whenever, but Brawl is Brawl. I am all for playing in both settings normal and heavy, but I don't see competitions being held in this way.

Everyone is complaining about campers (Which I have had no problems with mind you) But hey the games been out what 2 weeks? I guess everyones already a pro and figured out everything.

The top players (both in Melee AND in brawl, so far) have had it since Japan's release. They're pushing two months. Most of them have logged in as many hours as everyone in this thread combined.

 

[Anarkex]

Truth truth truth truth truth. Maximum truth. Holy god.

I love Brawl. It's not competitive. I want it to be, because I love the game.

Okay, let me say it differently. I really do like Brawl, but I don't play with professional players and I don't play with anyone who spams too much. Part of the reason I like Brawl is probably the scrubbiest, noobiest thing I could possibly like about it: it's easier for new players to pick it up, casual play (Items and whatnot) has only improved, and it's just a more exciting and closer game whether I'm playing someone vastly better or much much worse than me. That's something I like about Brawl, but I know it doesn't apply to you, that's the only reason I'm keeping this up.

What in Brawl do you feel has improved from Melee? What do you see in it that makes you feel like it's worth pursuing this holy grail of Balanced Competitive Play? Because, if all you intend to do is find ways to moderate the play styles of people who would never bother turtling for the sake of winning, it's going to be useless. I'm all for competitive play finding its place in Brawl, I'm just really, really curious as to your and everyone else's intentions.

I haven't slept much lately, so if any of that didn't make sense, feel free to degrade me.

 

[SkylerOcon]

The top players (both in Melee AND in brawl, so far) have had it since Japan's release. They're pushing two months. Most of them have logged in as many hours as everyone in this thread combined.

*snicker*

I love how you automatically assume everybody who was good at Melee got the japanese version of Brawl just to play it before everyone else.

Also, don't take this next part the wrong way. This is my 2 cents on this discussion.

I think that a lot of people were crushed to find that Brawl wasn't a Melee 2.0. Initially, I was too. But I've gotten used to the new Brawl physics engine, and I like it, just as well as I did Melee's.

I will try the Heavy Gravity mode once I get back to my house (I'm at my grandparents right now) and see if its a good idea, though. If it really does improve the standard of Brawl playing then I'm game.

But keep in mind. This game is NOT Melee 2.0. I'm not asking you to stop being upset about it, but to stop complaining about it.

Note: Yes, I did copy paste this from my response in another thread before anybody says anything

 

[Kirio]

Actually, that's not true. I beat him quite often if I use R.O.B., I just find it saddening that only R.O.B. has a real way of dealing with a spammy Toon Link, and the counter-tactics is basically trying to spam back to force an opening.

Listen, I'm not saying I didn't adapt to Brawl. If you want to challenge that, play me online anytime, I'll show you how much I've "not adopted".

It's that i'm trying to think of ways to get around this campy fad we're seeing in Brawl, which is a fad that would otherwise be here to stay because of the way the game mechanics work. Here's some other threads I've made trying to point out this issue, specifically by trying to understand how specific stages help out/hinder campers and how certain-character match-ups can handle/fight camping:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158342
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158268

And please don't think I hate Brawl either.

Please, get it through your head. I LOVE BRAWL. I AM EXTREMELY PRO BRAWL. I just want this game to survive in the competitive realm, and I honestly think that now, despite my previous assertions like the most of you who did not like the idea of making Heavy Brawl the competitive standard, I now think Heavy Brawl is the only way the competitive Brawl community is going to relish this game.

Huh. You didn't react angrily. That's strange, seeing as how I'm an ***.

Anyway, I recently played in a tourney with ~30 people and came out on top with Meta Knight. Along the way I played 2 spammy Links and a spammy Toon Link. I found no trouble with these players when I simply used SHFF'd air dodges to approach. It's not very punishable at all and is very easy to do.

I don't know if you're doing this at all and I know just saying this doesn't prove me right, but I earnestly believe people are staying in the melee mentality and trying to play it using the same style. It's just strange that I don't find a problem with this and yet a whole bunch of "pros" do when I'm definitely not pro.

I'm not saying you don't like Brawl or anything, I'm just saying that the difficulties you describe could have simple, plausible explanations. Wolf could be a bad matchup vs. Toon or you might not be adapting well. Both are very possible.

I dunno.