Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[Anarkex]

Theres no point in trying to reason, this isnt ever going to happen. What's the point?

Why wouldn't it happen? As it stands, there is a definite advantage to camping in competitive Brawl. What Heavy does is change the game. It hasn't been tested thoroughly, but then, Brawl really hasn't been either. What's wrong with experimenting? These options were put into the game so that people could use them and find the way they like to play. The competitive Brawl situation doesn't look good, and this is a suggestion to change that.

Seems right now that anyone who might've argued against the theory of "how it was meant to be played" referring to old tourney standards are now seeing this variation and saying "that's not how it was meant to be played!" I've played melee in just about every variation you can think of. Ever imagine 40 stock super sudden death on Flat Zone, 2.0 damage ratio, pichu only, with all items off except Mr. Saturn on maximum spawn rate? Would you believe there really is skill in that? It's just a different kind of game. Now what we have here is a "different kind of game" that some people are considering, and you dare tell them it's without merit. Brawl is still in its early stages, but that doesn't mean we should blindly ignore all the new options Sakurai gave us and spend all our time whining about the little things he took away. This idea is not close-minded, it's the opposite. By all means, get some friends together for metal giant fire brawl on Brinstar. Switch off the items that you don't like, but leave the rest on. Brawl is a brand new game, and everyone gets to find new ways of enjoying it, so lighten the hell up. This really isn't the thread to be trolling.

DRaGZ, thanks for the info about them board games. And to anyone who read this to the end, I'm still exhausted and I still apologize profusely for anything that doesn't make sense.

 

[Demon Kirby]

I've been juggling with myself wether or not Heavy Brawl would be the way to go, and this thread convinved me.

I'll try and test out Heavy Brawl tomorrow with every character and see what changes for them.

Oh an ganondorf would most likely be HORRIBLE for this.

He's horrible already. >_>

 

[DRaGZ]

Pretty much your only real reason for wanting gravity mode is because you're a better player when gravity mode is on.

I'm sorry but i like to play brawl..

Oh an ganondorf would most likely be HORRIBLE for this.

And I main ganondorf.

I actually play better in regular Brawl. I'm getting beaten quite often in Heavy Brawl.

Also, Ganondorf gets better because he can string together two hits into a combo rather than knock the opponent away a mile and force himself to strive for another hit.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

No. That's not even sort of true.

Ok thanks for backing up your point.

I actually play better in regular Brawl. I'm getting beaten quite often in Heavy Brawl.

Also, Ganondorf gets better because he can string together two hits into a combo rather than knock the opponent away a mile and force himself to strive for another hit.

Its quite easy to string together 2 hits as Ganondorf already...

 

[DRaGZ]

I've been juggling with myself wether or not Heavy Brawl would be the way to go, and this thread convinved me.

I'll try and test out Heavy Brawl tomorrow with every character and see what changes for them.

Thank you for at least trying it out. If you still don't think it's more competitive afterward, then it's totally understandable.

Poster above me:

It's technically possible and I've done it several times in a match before as well (I play Ganondorf very often), but it's waaay easier to do it in Heavy Brawl than in regular Brawl. It's not necessarily because it's less skillful but more because there are more opportunities to do it. Hell, I can actually do it after a d-air now, whereas before my open would go flying super high and be unreachable. I can even follow up with a f-air despite Ganondorf's landing lag because the opponent is knocked back just enough to prevent counterattack but not far enough to get away (i.e. if you properly chase you can get in another hit). It's a thing of beauty really.

 

[JugaBro]

Ok thanks for backing up your point.

He doesn't need to, he already has in countless posts further back in this thread.

 

[Papapaint]

Ok thanks for backing up your point.



Its quite easy to string together 2 hits as Ganondorf already...

How do I back it up? Do you need video evidence of me losing more in heavy brawl than in regular brawl?

I was 7th on Wifi wars for around a week (regular brawl). I've been losing since I started testing this with my friends, because my campy *** falco isn't as good.

 

[jwj442]

Well, after experimenting a little more, my initial impression of Wario may be wrong. Even with the nerfed bike recovery, he can still jump -> fair -> double jump -> nair as an edgeguard and get back on the bike, it's just not as forgiving now (and a fart could help). And I could see his aerial mobility being useful in a different way. But it's much more difficult now to jump, attack, and then double jump. The timing for it is tough. I was only able to do it once.

Samus is scary with heavy gravity. Her zair, already an amazing move, gets even better because it's easier to hit with and she can use it more. Her backair, one of her few real KO moves, is easier to hit with too. Speaking of which, all her aerials have absolutely zero landing lag. Bomb jumping doesn't work though.

 

[keeb]

This is what I heard... bla bla bla I can't beat Toon Link so let me come up with an environment that suits me.

 

[DRaGZ]

Okay, I've tested the recoveries of every character. Everyone works relatively well EXCEPT Sonic. Sonic's Up+B is now just plain sucky, he goes about 3/4 of his normal jump. My friend is trying to get used to his side+b now instead.

 

[Papapaint]

This is what I heard... bla bla bla I can't beat Toon Link so let me come up with an environment that suits me.

You need to clean your ears. He plays as toon link.

Lawl.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Thank you for at least trying it out. If you still don't think it's more competitive afterward, then it's totally understandable.

Poster above me:

It's technically possible and I've done it several times in a match before as well (I play Ganondorf very often), but it's waaay easier to do it in Heavy Brawl than in regular Brawl. It's not necessarily because it's less skillful but more because there are more opportunities to do it. Hell, I can actually do it after a d-air now, whereas before my open would go flying super high and be unreachable. I can even follow up with a f-air despite Ganondorf's landing lag because the opponent is knocked back just enough to prevent counterattack but not far enough to get away (i.e. if you properly chase you can get in another hit). It's a thing of beauty really.

It seems a lot harder to cancel ganondorf's landing lag after short hopped arials, which means it would be extremely easy to be punished after missing an attack. I personally don't like that becasue Ganondorf is already slow as you know.

Also recovering is a ***** when you get knocked of a distance you could previously recover from.

I don't know.. I don't like changes that hurt characters that weren't looking too good in the first place. I also don't think its very fair.

 

[Demon Kirby]

This is what I heard... bla bla bla I can't beat Toon Link so let me come up with an environment that suits me.

The ****, you must shut it up. Afterwards, I suggest reading the entire thread.

@jwj: where is the quote in your sig from? It sounds vaguely familiar.

 

[DRaGZ]

This is what I heard... bla bla bla I can't beat Toon Link so let me come up with an environment that suits me.

I can beat Toon Link. I can beat him consistently. What I don't like is that his camping is STILL his best strategy. I want it so that it no longer is, because pure camping is boring and stupid.

 

[Papapaint]

Also recovering is a ***** when you get knocked of a distance you could previously recover from.

Previously, that included other planets.

 

[jwj442]

@jwj: where is the quote in your sig from? It sounds vaguely familiar.

A great game called Star Control 2.

And yeah, if this becomes the standard, Sonic will be totally unusable, no question. Far, far worse than Mewtwo and Pichu.

It's hard to overstate how much better Samus is with heavy gravity. It almost feels like this was the mode she was designed for (besides the lack of bomb jumping).

 

[SmashBro99]

lol I love how you said, "Oh Sonic's recovery move sucks in heavy mode so my friend is getting used to >B as recovery."

No, it's obvious YOU like heavy brawl better then normal, there's about 6-7 people that agree with you, this is never going to happen, as it's a really stupid idea and reasoning.

You can play this all you want, I don't care, but it will never be adopted as the competitive standard, lol.

This game is balanced, stop trying to make it unbalanced, if you want unbalanced, play Melee and beat scrubs.

 

[Mephianse]

It make me sad when I read arguments like this:

" If you don't like Brawl, get back to melee, don't try to make it melee 2.0".

It's sad because those who try to enhance the competitive nature of the game deserve the most respect and admiration. They could easily say "Bah, I quit Smash, let's play some Halo" but no, they stay because they LOVE the game, they don't want to see it die like so many other fighting games.

I've been trying the high gravity mode and for me it works great, I feel like I'm getting better now. You will get your *** kicked the first fights though, but if you get used to it you can be good in both low and high gravity modes.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Previously, that included other planets.

I hope i'm not the only one who thinks this makes no sense at all.

 

[SmashBro99]

It won't die because it's balanced, rofl.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Even though it's probably unnecessary and unwanted, here are my views on this subject.

First of all, it seems unfair to the game to just push something like heavy Brawl in as the standard, especially after such a short amount of time. Yeah, the whole "it's a new game!!!" fits, but it's not just that. I think by doing this, a "normal Brawl" won't really get a chance and it will leave the Smash Bros community, not just the competitive community, even more divided than it is now.

It seems the benefits of this mode would be to make the game more like Melee; faster for the most part with more emphasis on combos, not really much more to it. There are fundamental problems with this just because the game isn't Melee.

I am not trying to be offensive to anyone when I say this, but I don't understand why people would rather turn Brawl into Melee than just go back and play the GCN game, as heavy Brawl is more of a "Melee ripoff" than anything, if you are looking at it in that light. This, of course, all depends on why you believe heavy Brawl should be the standard. I do think some people, if not the majority, want it for the wrong reason.

That obviously implies that there is a right reason to want this, and it seems the topic starter has made a valid argument, at least in my eyes, as to why this very well could be a standard. Fact is, camp-fest Brawl, as it is now, won't thrive competitively. It will be boring and the community will fall apart on itself. It's just too different, much more so than flawed; I say this because anything can be competitive under the definition of "be part of a competition."

However, I also foresee issues with using high gravity as a standard, similar issues to those that would arise if the "normal Brawl" was used. Think about it, a person played Melee fairly casually, pick up Brawl, and after a year or so decide they want to play the game competitively. So they check out the stuff for official tournaments and find out tournament standards are totally different than the standards he played on before were. Rather than just turning off items, he has to learn to play in high gravity?

This basically forces a newcomer into the competitive scene to learn the game from scratch, and that in itself will be a huge roadblock if the competitive community has any plans at all to grow, and it should considering how many people claim to dislike Brawl and want to stick with Melee. I don't think alienating players is the right way to go about this unless it's absolutely necessary.

Look at the flack that goes around because of play without items? Just imagine how many times worse it would get if competitive players played by an entirely different ruleset? It may be more fun for the Melee veterans who want to move to Brawl, but it's definitely not best for the community. I say at least wait a while before seriously considering pushing heavy Brawl as the standard, and make sure that it absolutely won't work otherwise.

 

[Demon Kirby]

And yeah, if this becomes the standard, Sonic will be totally unusable, no question. Far, far worse than Mewtwo and Pichu.

We shall call him . . . Failchu! Or Gimpchu. . . I could go on and on.

It's hard to overstate

. . . my satisfaction. . .

I had to.

How is Jigg's recovery, by the way?

 

[DRaGZ]

It seems a lot harder to cancel ganondorf's landing lag after short hopped arials, which means it would be extremely easy to be punished after missing an attack. I personally don't like that becasue Ganondorf is already slow as you know.

Also recovering is a ***** when you get knocked of a distance you could previously recover from.

I don't know.. I don't like changes that hurt characters that weren't looking too good in the first place. I also don't think its very fair.

Yes, I've noticed that if you miss with Ganondorf you are actually in a bad spot, but I play very conservative Ganondorf, so I haven't seen that much myself (although I know what you mean).

Also, a lot of characters have had nearly nothing bad happen to their recoveries. Metaknight and Pit are fine. DeDeDe's recovery is now actually scary. R.O.B. and Snake are still awesome. The biggest nerfs I've seen are Sonic (a really big nerf), Wario (just needs better timing), Diddy (also, just needs better timing), Link (his Clawshot is more necessary now than ever), and Toon Link (he's really beastly regardless).

 

[DRaGZ]

lol I love how you said, "Oh Sonic's recovery move sucks in heavy mode so my friend is getting used to >B as recovery."

No, it's obvious YOU like heavy brawl better then normal, there's about 6-7 people that agree with you, this is never going to happen, as it's a really stupid idea and reasoning.

You can play this all you want, I don't care, but it will never be adopted as the competitive standard, lol.

This game is balanced, stop trying to make it unbalanced, if you want unbalanced, play Melee and beat scrubs.

I'm not argue whether the game's characters are balanced. We don't know that yet.

What we already DO know is that this game has far more defensive options than offensive options. That has made camping extremely powerful.

No one has answered my question yet. Do you want camping to be the standard?

And I think if we have a tournament with it and it turned out to be successful, it may show more people why it might just be more competitive.

Even though it's probably unnecessary and unwanted, here are my views on this subject.

First of all, it seems unfair to the game to just push something like heavy Brawl in as the standard, especially after such a short amount of time. Yeah, the whole "it's a new game!!!" fits, but it's not just that. I think by doing this, a "normal Brawl" won't really get a chance and it will leave the Smash Bros community, not just the competitive community, even more divided than it is now.

It seems the benefits of this mode would be to make the game more like Melee; faster for the most part with more emphasis on combos, not really much more to it. There are fundamental problems with this just because the game isn't Melee.

I am not trying to be offensive to anyone when I say this, but I don't understand why people would rather turn Brawl into Melee than just go back and play the GCN game, as heavy Brawl is more of a "Melee ripoff" than anything, if you are looking at it in that light. This, of course, all depends on why you believe heavy Brawl should be the standard. I do think some people, if not the majority, want it for the wrong reason.

That obviously implies that there is a right reason to want this, and it seems the topic starter has made a valid argument, at least in my eyes, as to why this very well could be a standard. Fact is, camp-fest Brawl, as it is now, won't thrive competitively. It will be boring and the community will fall apart on itself. It's just too different, much more so than flawed; I say this because anything can be competitive under the definition of "be part of a competition."

However, I also foresee issues with using high gravity as a standard, similar issues to those that would arise if the "normal Brawl" was used. Think about it, a person played Melee fairly casually, pick up Brawl, and after a year or so decide they want to play the game competitively. So they check out the stuff for official tournaments and find out tournament standards are totally different than the standards he played on before were. Rather than just turning off items, he has to learn to play in high gravity?

This basically forces a newcomer into the competitive scene to learn the game from scratch, and that in itself will be a huge roadblock if the competitive community has any plans at all to grow, and it should considering how many people claim to dislike Brawl and want to stick with Melee. I don't think alienating players is the right way to go about this unless it's absolutely necessary.

Look at the flack that goes around because of play without items? Just imagine how many times worse it would get if competitive players played by an entirely different ruleset? It may be more fun for the Melee veterans who want to move to Brawl, but it's definitely not best for the community. I say at least wait a while before seriously considering pushing heavy Brawl as the standard, and make sure that it absolutely won't work otherwise.

I truly appreciate your statements. I really do. It's a far more well-thought out response than many other people in this thread.

This was the exact same attitude I had when I first heard the idea of making Heavy Brawl as the standard (this was a few months ago), so I totally understand what you mean (I made the same points about the items too...I think).

But what if there no longer is a competitive community? When I tried entering the competitive Melee scene, which I never truly got into for my own reasons, it was already really different. "Wavedashing, wtf is this?" I thought. "Edgeguarding, who does that? What a jerk!" I thought. Now I know differently, but I still understand that, no matter what, entering anything competitively is a hurdle. To be honest, I don't think Heavy Brawl is a much bigger hurdle than it was to master proper l-canceling. If anything, it feels far more natural to get accustomed to a different kind of gravity than it does to get accustomed to inputting a new command.

I dunno, that's just my personal opinion. And I am by no means trying to say that I want to force this down everyone's throats. But I'd at least like them to try it.

And with the Sonic thing, I am personally trying to figure out ways to use him more effectively in Heavy Brawl. So far, he needs to do lots more hit and run tactics...

 

[jwj442]

How is Jigg's recovery, by the way?

I was able to go under Final Destination and fell just short of the edge on the other side, and this was just with jumps and no pound.

 

[Papapaint]

Even though it's probably unnecessary and unwanted, here are my views on this subject.

First of all, it seems unfair to the game to just push something like heavy Brawl in as the standard, especially after such a short amount of time. Yeah, the whole "it's a new game!!!" fits, but it's not just that. I think by doing this, a "normal Brawl" won't really get a chance and it will leave the Smash Bros community, not just the competitive community, even more divided than it is now.

It seems the benefits of this mode would be to make the game more like Melee; faster for the most part with more emphasis on combos, not really much more to it. There are fundamental problems with this just because the game isn't Melee.

I am not trying to be offensive to anyone when I say this, but I don't understand why people would rather turn Brawl into Melee than just go back and play the GCN game, as heavy Brawl is more of a "Melee ripoff" than anything, if you are looking at it in that light. This, of course, all depends on why you believe heavy Brawl should be the standard. I do think some people, if not the majority, want it for the wrong reason.

That obviously implies that there is a right reason to want this, and it seems the topic starter has made a valid argument, at least in my eyes, as to why this very well could be a standard. Fact is, camp-fest Brawl, as it is now, won't thrive competitively. It will be boring and the community will fall apart on itself. It's just too different, much more so than flawed; I say this because anything can be competitive under the definition of "be part of a competition."

However, I also foresee issues with using high gravity as a standard, similar issues to those that would arise if the "normal Brawl" was used. Think about it, a person played Melee fairly casually, pick up Brawl, and after a year or so decide they want to play the game competitively. So they check out the stuff for official tournaments and find out tournament standards are totally different than the standards he played on before were. Rather than just turning off items, he has to learn to play in high gravity?

This basically forces a newcomer into the competitive scene to learn the game from scratch, and that in itself will be a huge roadblock if the competitive community has any plans at all to grow, and it should considering how many people claim to dislike Brawl and want to stick with Melee. I don't think alienating players is the right way to go about this unless it's absolutely necessary.

Look at the flack that goes around because of play without items? Just imagine how many times worse it would get if competitive players played by an entirely different ruleset? It may be more fun for the Melee veterans who want to move to Brawl, but it's definitely not best for the community. I say at least wait a while before seriously considering pushing heavy Brawl as the standard, and make sure that it absolutely won't work otherwise.

You raise some good points,

Ultimately, the reason for this is because we don't want it to die in the competitive scene. However, you're right. This will be tough for some people to swallow. Halo 3 is played competitively at a higher damage ratio than normal, and that was a really hard thing for people to get their heads around. Ultimately, most people don't use it, only MLG.

However, this change in damage occured in late november... only about 2 months after the release of H3. They definitely hadn't explored all possible angles of Halo 3, but ultimately found that that made the game more Halo-like, then based their metagame off of that.

Change is good, but keep in mind that Brawl is already part of these national circuits long before its metagame was developed.. that means that we need to prove its worth ASAP. Unfortunately, it's so different that it won't live long on there without something to make it more smash-like. Not melee-like. Smash-like. Fast thinking, and an edgegame.

 

[Demon Kirby]

I was able to go under Final Destination and fell just short of the edge on the other side, and this was just with jumps and no pound.

>.O

I thought pretty much all vertical distance was lost to Jiggs without Pound. Far less severe than I thought, then.

 

[DRaGZ]

Okay I have experimented with Sonic in Heavy Brawl.

I know his recovery sucks.

But that being said, Sonic is now both amazing both on the ground and in the air when attacking. Before, in regular Brawl, Sonic moved like he was wading through chunky mustard in the air but was faster than Falcon ever was on the ground. Because of this, all he could do was hit-and-run tactics.

I was trying to do the hit-and-run thing here in Heavy Brawl and it wasn't working. So I did the crazy thing and started approaching with aerials. And oh my GOD he is a beast. He can literally juggle with his U-air. And he approach fast enough to start this because he's freakin' Sonic.

The trick is to start the match off with your hit-and-run tactics and then, when he's got some good damage on him, start doing combos. The thing with Sonic is that he's just too weak to do combos off of the bat since his knockback was rubbish to begin with, but in Heavy Brawl he can't actually do combos with his aerials. It's cool, and his d-air is his best killer, as usual.

 

[DRaGZ]

>.O

I thought pretty much all vertical distance was lost to Jiggs without Pound. Far less severe than I thought, then.

If I understand correctly, Heavy Brawl only modifies falling acceleration and somewhat increases maximum falling speed. Jigglypuff doesn't suffer because falling speed seems to somewhat correlate to weight. DeDeDe, however, does because his jumps naturally diminish much quicker than most floaters and he's quite heavy. But his Up+B is scary to deal with in Heavy Brawl...

 

[Papapaint]

Also, some people keep mentioning the auto-cancel aerials...

Most of them, from what I've found, actually cancel faster for some reason. For example, it's much easier to chain marth's neutral air into another attack.

 

[DRaGZ]

I've been getting that too, but I thought I was crazy...

 

[CHUK]

I play with heavy and super speed, it makes the game much faster and makes my brain think as fast as melee. Once you get used to it it is awesome.

 

[DRaGZ]

I've been making direct comparison between regular Brawl and Heavy Brawl, specifically with R.O.B. versus Pikachu, two characters whose controlling style does not really change much between the two. I've now realized what the culprit is that makes Heavy Brawl more viable.

Yes, approach is much easier since short-hopped attacks can actually pierce a camper, but that's not the core of the issue.

The core of the issue has always been "how can we punish once we have approached?" Usually, it boiled down to one or two hits because the attacker could always get away due to the high knockback. But in Heavy Brawl this knockback seems to have been diminished. But it actually hasn't...

Knockback itself hasn't diminished, rather it's been the actual airtime itself that changes! It's because actual attack values from the characters haven't changed at all, including the amount of knockback each character does, but rather it's the acceleration of their falling that prevents them from getting away as easily!

The problem was vertical knockback which, in turn, contributed to horizontal knockback. Since horizontal knockback itself hasn't changed, it's still a very valid method of killing. However, since vertical knockback is now weighted down by accelerated gravity, the vertical knockback itself is both simultaneous fought by the additional gravity, making it go only about 3/4 of what it normally would, while greatly increasing the falling speed. This makes opponents hit the ground faster and allow combos to be set up in a much more realistic fashion.

You can test this out for yourself on Shadow Moses Island with a R.O.B. and Pikachu, once on normal mode and once on Heavy Brawl. Have Pikachu position itself below one of the lowest platforms and do a d-throw with R.O.B. For regular mode, Pikachu's body will actually touch the top platform before coming down. In Heavy Brawl, however, not only will Pikachu miss the top platform (only going about 3/4 the distance it went before), it also falls much much quicker.

Of course, I'm taking into stuff like character-specific accelerations and stuff, but you get my drift.

 

[Papapaint]

I've been making direct comparison between regular Brawl and Heavy Brawl, specifically with R.O.B. versus Pikachu, two characters whose controlling style does not really change much between the two. I've now realized what the culprit is that makes Heavy Brawl more viable.

Yes, approach is much easier since short-hopped attacks can actually pierce a camper, but that's not the core of the issue.

The core of the issue has always been "how can we punish once we have approached?" Usually, it boiled down to one or two hits because the attacker could always get away due to the high knockback. But in Heavy Brawl this knockback seems to have been diminished. But it actually hasn't...

Knockback itself hasn't diminished, rather it's been the actual airtime itself that changes! It's because actual attack values from the characters haven't changed at all, including the amount of knockback each character does, but rather it's the acceleration of their falling that prevents them from getting away as easily!

The problem was vertical knockback which, in turn, contributed to horizontal knockback. Since horizontal knockback itself hasn't changed, it's still a very valid method of killing. However, since vertical knockback is now weighted down by accelerated gravity, the vertical knockback itself is both simultaneous fought by the additional gravity, making it go only about 3/4 of what it normally would, while greatly increasing the falling speed. This makes opponents hit the ground faster and allow combos to be set up in a much more realistic fashion.

You can test this out for yourself on Shadow Moses Island with a R.O.B. and Pikachu, once on normal mode and once on Heavy Brawl. Have Pikachu position itself below one of the lowest platforms and do a d-throw with R.O.B. For regular mode, Pikachu's body will actually touch the top platform before coming down. In Heavy Brawl, however, not only will Pikachu miss the top platform (only going about 3/4 the distance it went before), it also falls much much quicker.

Of course, I'm taking into stuff like character-specific accelerations and stuff, but you get my drift.

Yeah, I figured you knew that. Lawl.

But yes, the whole point of this change is to balance out the push/pull game with the punishment game (not to turn it into melee). Not only is camping no longer a powerful strategy, it's simply a strategy. There is no longer a division between campers and people playing against campers, the game has broadened because of this.

Whether or not people accept this is up to them. Personally, I think we should go the halo route... MLG rules are high grav on, and everyone else can play however they like. Bungie will never have the MLG damage increase in its playlists, leaving the game just fine for other players--even competitive ones. You don't have to play by MLG rules or standards to be competitive.

 

[DRaGZ]

I play with heavy and super speed, it makes the game much faster and makes my brain think as fast as melee. Once you get used to it it is awesome.

Hmm...I just tried it.

I think it's interesting, but I felt like a lot of finesse was removed because it was just so darned fast. Sonic in particular is impossible to control in this mode.

Yeah, I figured you knew that. Lawl.

Lawl. I guess I was just so relieved to find a mode that allows approaches to campers that I completely forgot about the punishment aspect.

 

[Papapaint]

Hmm...I just tried it.

I think it's interesting, but I felt like a lot of finesse was removed because it was just so darned fast. Sonic in particular is impossible to control in this mode.



Lawl. I guess I was just so relieved to find a mode that allows approaches to campers that I completely forgot about the punishment aspect.

Yeah, high speed definitely feels more like melee. But, contrary to what people keep saying, that's not the goal.

 

[Vet]

I had initially been weary of testing out Heavy Brawl as a possible new standard, but this thread, after reading it has convinced me to give it a try. I will be playing with some friends later today and I will report my findings as I come in contact with them. (I am a DDD main and he is a Metaknight main)

 

[Papapaint]

I had initially been weary of testing out Heavy Brawl as a possible new standard, but this thread, after reading it has convinced me to give it a try. I will be playing with some friends later today and I will report my findings as I come in contact with them. (I am a DDD main and he is a Metaknight main)

Make sure to do your shff neutral air. It's godly.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

But then I realized the game was very campy. At first I thought "hmm, maybe this is just the way we're playing."

And then I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj6ZLFjtNVI

Do you want that to be the competitive standard? A spam-fest? God****it, I don't.

.

see this is the problem with a lot of samshers, they've never played ST
its called the fireball the reason people spam projecvtiles is because it creates an obstecle your opponent has to get thru before he can even think about figthing you. Dont you people get its like figthing againts O.Sagat in super turbo, he has the best fireball in the game and he uses that fireball to control space and by extension his opponent. That doest mean he's invicible it jsut means his ooponet has to figure out a way around his fireball or he loses. Then the O.Sagat player knows this and figures out a way to make it look like his fireball game is impenetreble

Look at this macth of the best O.Sagat in America vs. one of the best Guile's in Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R0sgOaJvMU

I dare anyone to tell me that this is just a spamfest of projectiles because its a lot more than that. Choi has to keep Guile out because Guile has better normals taht Sagat
so he uses the fireball to control space. Guile can try to jump them but Sagat also has an anti-air he can use to stop him. So the Guilel player has to use whats called a phsyic jump to gett it, wich is very risky but pay's off. Thats just one of the thingsd goin thru the minds of these players there's probally like 20 diffent things that each players is taking into account. Using different tactics,fakes, set ups as well as using their normals effectavly both players are using real mindgames to get the win. There not running around trwoing **** cause teh can l-cancel it

Waht we need to do is stop being little children and learn to play real mindgames
Brawl has given us a chance to learn to use projectiles effectivley to control space something wich melee did not have. So lets stop trying to turn this game into the debacle that was competitive melee.
"Gee im a Fox player let me run around nair l-cancel into shine"
"Hey im the other Fox player im gonna run around and dair l-cancel to shine"
"Hehe we have mindgames"
give me a ****ing break how bout we start learnign some real mindgames


BTW i dont give a **** if little smashers flame my ****ing post, you either take this advice like a man, or cry about it like a little *****

 

[IShotLazer]

Wow, its funny cus me and my friends actually started using this as our competive standard for THOSE very reasons. I was experimenting but I never intended on posting until I was sure that it would be used. thank for posting this and having it be so thorough. More thorough than I would posted.