Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[DRaGZ]

Well it's actually more like:

Heavy VS Fast VS Normal
SWF VS SRK (this always existed, SRK never respected our community as melee was a "kiddy" game even though they play brawl now)
Melee VS Brawl VS SSB64

SSB64? Haven't really seen that anywhere but okay.

Also, Fast Brawl doesn't solve the fundamental problems that plagues regular Brawl: the defensive options are still as powerful as ever. It doesn't really solve anything.

 

[Nasanieru]

At long last I have tried Heavy Brawl. I can see where most of you guys are coming from now.

After only ten minutes of playing in this mode here are a few things that I noticed: it is much more challenging than Normal Brawl, recoveries have been appropriately nerfed (except for Sonic, his recovery was ***** lol), combos are much easier to do, throws are WAY more useful (giving us back the Grab>Shield, Shield>Attack, Attack>Grab game), short hops are actually what they are called, the game has that "faster" feel, it is 10x more fun than Normal Brawl.

I'm all for this transition, I love Brawl for the game that it is and am not trying to change it to Melee 2.0. In standard Brawl strategies that are extremely defensive are dominant which is encouraging camping, extreme turtling, etc. "Whats wrong with that?" you ask? Its just not fun at all. I've been playing since Smash 64 and have enjoyed them all greatly for the competitive value that they have. Brawl, however, does not have the feeling of a competitive game at all, to me it seems more like the party "anyone can win" game that Sakurai has been trying to create since the start. Remember that he said he wanted to cater to all types of players in "Iwata Asks"? I think that Heavy Brawl is the way he is catering to the competitive community.

Think about it, the short hop in Heavy Brawl is not exactly "heavy" compared to the previous games. it seems like its been returned to normal. Normal Brawl is supposed to be played the casual fun way with items, smashballs, and craziness, which is why such huge recoveries are needed, to keep you alive longer. When you are playing 1v1 competitive matches though these are unnecessary, and the other aspects designed for hectic battles impair the game's overall competitiveness. I play with alot of casual players, and the majority of them seem to think that Brawl is great for fun matches but is failing to deliver on competitive matches. They even said that Melee is more fun in 1v1, which is mindboggling since they would rather play 4v4 FFA. In my observations so far Heavy Brawl fixes and appropriately balances gameplay for competition by changing several features of the game's physics.

To all the haters saying that we can't adapt to the change or what have you, we have given the game a chance and have played it endlessly trying to advance the game's competitive value. People are also saying, "give it more time, it hasn't been out long enough!". Well, do you think that the Smash community back when Melee was released was even close to the size that it is today? Back then it took a small amount of people to find these techs over a long period of time. Now, we have thousands of people searching day and night for anything to abuse and have been fairly successful. But with standard gameplay these have shallow effects. We already know that Brawl was not intended for competitive play, as seen by the addition of tripping, the lack of leader boards and other online features that most competitive games possess. Also Sakurai himself said that he wanted the game to be a game that everyone could enjoy, but we are not excluded from this, contrary to popular belief.

I know that the change is not going to be easy, as there are so many different types of players in our community. For the competitive side though, I think that Brawl will last longer if we at least try this new style of play. I honestly believe that Sakurai made this mode for us, lets give it a chance before we disregard its potential.

These are my thoughts so far, please read my post if you're going to quote me. I highlighted alot of the main points for you for easier reference. I know I'm biased because I've been playing these games over the years compared to someone who has just entered the series from Brawl, but just think about it please.
I want Brawl to be fun for everyone! ^ ^

 

[DRaGZ]

I am asking for a pro to post his or her opinion because I have very very recently realized I have dwarfed community influence compared to a respected pro in this community. Thus, I am humbly asking for the pros of this community to post their opinions on this topic and explain why they feel that way. That is all.

 

[Corigames]

Doesn't it suck. You can say everything you want, intelligent or not, and people will still only listen to "pros."

 

[DRaGZ]

Yeah...*sigh*

I mean, but they are pros. It's not like they're "pros", they do this somewhat for a living.

 

[Blackadder]

I've been fighting over this "Heavy Brawl Tourny Standard" idea in my mind for a while now.

On one hand it's not "normal" Brawl. On the other, it sounds like it needs more thinking in it, and more fun. Only just then has it occured to me that I should actually TEST it out for myself to see if it's any good or not.

Though I admit, for now, I'm going say I like this idea. Squee! ^^

 

[Corigames]

Yeah...*sigh*

I mean, but they are pros. It's not like they're "pros", they do this somewhat for a living.

Well, people who are noted as pros and actual pros can be different things. CAN. not are. I know Forward, and I know of his travel around the country living off of prize money. He literally was a smash player by profession. That's a pro.

Someone like me, who, if asked, would say is a pro , is actually not. I went to a lot of tournaments. Won a handful. Placed well. In general, was a lot better than most people that went into the competitive scene, and I'm still NOT a pro.

So it boils down to one thing, popularity.

 

[S0crat3s]

So you want to ask a MELEE pro's opinion on BRAWL? I think you should wait until we get some Brawl pros before you ask of their opinions...

 

[cobaltblue]

So you want to ask a MELEE pro's opinion on BRAWL? I think you should wait until we get some Brawl pros before you ask of their opinions...

^This. I think it was azen(a popular pro) who was quoted in another thread as saying alot of pros just plain out dislike this game due to the fact they are getting their *** whipped in the turnney scene.

Still, I would like to hear what top character specfic players have to say about this mode.

 

[Tristan_win]

.....After reading all of that I have to say that your argument is very convincing, I now think heavy gravity should be used. I just wish I was a somebody so I could give you more support.

My only fear is that this will only help keep people away from the game on a competitive level, also this makes playing brawl online obsolete, which is bad.

But in order to guarantee that Brawl will have a future we need players in the present and this will help safe guard (what's left) of the older members once they are convince this is the way to go.

 

[game_tip]

I'm sorry I can't find myself playing Heavy Brawl online
because there are no options to do so.

How are you going to separate everyone from the crowd just by setting this option as default for tournament standards?

Not everyone has the time to go meet up and play with friends for Heavy Brawl as much as they would like to

 

[DRaGZ]

Well, no offense, but you can't really have serious competitive tournies online. Trust me, I used to be part of such scenes in Starsiege, Tribe 2, and Starcraft, it just never ends up being serious enough for the wins to matter (unless the players themselves are simply extremely arrogant and immature). And those games had/have awesome online functionality. I find it difficult to believe that the online competitive scene for Brawl will fare any better in terms of being serious.

 

[cobaltblue]

I'm sorry I can't find myself playing Heavy Brawl online
because there are no options to do so.

How are you going to separate everyone from the crowd just by setting this option as default for tournament standards?

Not everyone has the time to go meet up and play with friends for Heavy Brawl as much as they would like to

The melee scene survived 7+ years without online play, I'm pretty **** sure brawl could do it too if needed for tournaments that actually matter. Not to mention online as it is now is so laggy and open to dispute that no true test of skill can come out of it.

And from a casual point of view, what does it matter if your just going to be play how you want? Remember there is no mandate that you play heavy all the time (a point people seem to miss in other debates).

 

[MoldinMindz]

I have tried heavy brawl and I find it much more fun to play. Heavy brawl makes the gameplay feel a little faster due to the increased speed of fastfalling. I don't think it matters whether you can play heavy brawl online, because the Nintendo WFC sucks anyway. 99..9% of online matches lag, and given such a slow game as brawl, the added lag makes it unbearable. Plus, I think trying to do any sort of tourney online is stupid since Nintendo didn't give us a built in ranking system. It's pathetic that ppl have to resort to external websites to arrange/post matches. Who really has that much time on their hands to sit at home and schedule matches, I know I don't. I think back to starcraft and battle.net 10 years ago, and how you could log on and play a ladder match anytime you wanted for free. Nice to see Nintendo keeping up with the times... Sorry for the rant, I know I got off topic, but I'm pissed off like most of you guys on here...

 

[Wyvern]

I'm not going to comment on Heavy Brawl specifically yet, because I haven't had a chance to actually try it (though I can tell you that I have a lot of misgivings about the idea). But there's something else I feel the need to bring up. Making Heavy Brawl the tournament standard would be ruinous for the community in ways that are being ignored in this discussion.

Of course, there's always been a certain gap between the "professional" and "casual" outlooks throughout Melee's lifespan. But in the end, we were still playing the same game. I'm no pro by any means, but as I learned more about the game and took it more seriously, I could come to these boards and look at the discussions. I could see strategies that my favorite characters could utilize which I may not have thought of on my own and incorporate some of them into my playstyle. People of different skill levels and playstyles could come together and discuss things (as long as nobody acted out of mind-boggling ignorance, anyway).

If Heavy Brawl were to become the tournament standard, then all of that is GONE. Completely gone. Less-experienced players couldn't come here and learn things from the pros, because the pros aren't even playing the same game as them anymore. Transitioning from the casual scene to a more serious one is no longer a matter of just practicing new techniques and adding new things to your game. It's someone telling you "The game you've played and loved for these past years sucks. Quit forever, lose everything you've learned, and play this new game instead, because we like it better." That's not going to convince a hell of a lot of people. That's not going to encourage the growth of the professional community.

Not to mention the fact that adopting Heavy Brawl as your preferred playstyle means giving up online play forever. I don't get to play with other people in person all that often, so one of my favorite things to do with Brawl at the moment is to go to the SWF Friend Finder or some similar service and set up matches with people. Yeah, once in a while you get someone with a worthlessly laggy connection, but I don't generally have trouble getting fun, lag-free matches after one or two tries. Even if Heavy Brawl is a little bit better, what impetus to I have to adopt it when I lose so much of my ability to play the game, and when I still actually like regular Brawl?

A place like Smash World Forums couldn't even exist after this sort of change. You can't just go to the Link forum and talk about Link. Is this Heavy Link or Regular Link? Is every post supposed to have a little tag on it designating what ruleset is being used? Why even have the forum if people can't so much as communicate with each other? You'd have to have a whole Heavy-only forum or a Regular-only forum, with no hope of discussion or transition between the two. Can a professional community even sustain itself like this? What's going to happen when all the people who advocate Heavy Brawl because of their old Melee experience have dried up and retired? What's going to be left?

I am aware of the problems that too strong of a defensive emphasis can cause in a fighting game. I had a whole bunch of those concerns in an old "L-cancelling is out" thread way back when. But it's way too early to be taking a step this drastic. It's not just some quick fix that will magically make everything wonderful and perfect. There are serious repercussions.

 

[DRaGZ]

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on there cowboy. We've already talked about stuff like this. At the same time, this was my primary argument against heavy Brawl when I first heard of it, but I turned around myself. I'll take your wall one paragraph at a time.

I'm not going to comment on Heavy Brawl specifically yet, because I haven't had a chance to actually try it (though I can tell you that I have a lot of misgivings about the idea). But there's something else I feel the need to bring up. Making Heavy Brawl the tournament standard would be ruinous for the community in ways that are being ignored in this discussion.

Well, first off, you should try it. The main opposition I am seeing to Heavy Brawl is that it's different...which isn't a very good argument against it at all. Duh, it's different (I'm not directing that at you, just in general).

Of course, there's always been a certain gap between the "professional" and "casual" outlooks throughout Melee's lifespan. But in the end, we were still playing the same game. I'm no pro by any means, but as I learned more about the game and took it more seriously, I could come to these boards and look at the discussions. I could see strategies that my favorite characters could utilize which I may not have thought of on my own and incorporate some of them into my playstyle. People of different skill levels and playstyles could come together and discuss things (as long as nobody acted out of mind-boggling ignorance, anyway).

If Heavy Brawl were to become the tournament standard, then all of that is GONE. Completely gone. Less-experienced players couldn't come here and learn things from the pros, because the pros aren't even playing the same game as them anymore. Transitioning from the casual scene to a more serious one is no longer a matter of just practicing new techniques and adding new things to your game. It's someone telling you "The game you've played and loved for these past years sucks. Quit forever, lose everything you've learned, and play this new game instead, because we like it better." That's not going to convince a hell of a lot of people. That's not going to encourage the growth of the professional community.

Why would it be completely gone? Heavy Brawl, in all honesty, is not very different from the regular game in terms of how you play. Many characters can still be played the same way. to most casuals, there was a huge gap between being a casual and being competitive because of advanced techniques which were difficult to master and incorporate into your game, i.e. wavedashing and l-cancelling. I'm not saying these are necessary, but they sure help out your game a lot.

I don't see why that would be different from heavy Brawl. You can basically do the same things you've been doing before only now you have to have a different mindset, just as if you had to learn wavedashing or l-cancelling.

Besides, casuals are always copying "the pros" anyway, and there's always that guy who's going to say "hey, the pros play this way, let's play this way too!" How do you think items went out of favor so quickly after the competitive scene adopted it?

Not to mention the fact that adopting Heavy Brawl as your preferred playstyle means giving up online play forever. I don't get to play with other people in person all that often, so one of my favorite things to do with Brawl at the moment is to go to the SWF Friend Finder or some similar service and set up matches with people. Yeah, once in a while you get someone with a worthlessly laggy connection, but I don't generally have trouble getting fun, lag-free matches after one or two tries. Even if Heavy Brawl is a little bit better, what impetus to I have to adopt it when I lose so much of my ability to play the game, and when I still actually like regular Brawl?

I play online regularly all the time. I find the transition between Heavy Brawl and regular Brawl not much different. The only real difference I notice is that it's easier to gimp, easier to combo, and that use of built-in techniques becomes much more important in Heavy Brawl.

Playing Heavy Brawl doesn't make you forget the way you played normal Brawl since the fundamental mechanics are still the same; the gap between Heavy Brawl and regular Brawl, I think, is far far shorter than the gap between let's say Melee and Brawl.

A place like Smash World Forums couldn't even exist after this sort of change. You can't just go to the Link forum and talk about Link. Is this Heavy Link or Regular Link? Is every post supposed to have a little tag on it designating what ruleset is being used? Why even have the forum if people can't so much as communicate with each other? You'd have to have a whole Heavy-only forum or a Regular-only forum, with no hope of discussion or transition between the two. Can a professional community even sustain itself like this? What's going to happen when all the people who advocate Heavy Brawl because of their old Melee experience have dried up and retired? What's going to be left?

What is so difficult about adding "Heavy" to the character you are talking about? I think you're throwing it waaaay out of proportion.

I am aware of the problems that too strong of a defensive emphasis can cause in a fighting game. I had a whole bunch of those concerns in an old "L-cancelling is out" thread way back when. But it's way too early to be taking a step this drastic. It's not just some quick fix that will magically make everything wonderful and perfect. There are serious repercussions.

I think you're overreacting really, really hard. Heavy Brawl doesn't completely change the game. The same options that have always been available are still there, they're just now more important because the higher gravity and more difficult recoveries makes everything count more, i.e. there are higher stakes. Consequently, this transfers the highly biased defensive advantage to a balance between offense and defense. Isn't that what competition should be about?

Think about it as though Heavy Brawl is to regular Brawl as Street Fighter II: Hyper fighting is to the original Street Fighter II. They're not that different in terms of basic mechanics (except maybe for the fact that some characters got new moves in Hyper Fighting), but one is more competitive than the other. Get it?

 

[cobaltblue]

^And again I have to ask, how is the community split if heavy brawl does indeed become our savior? SSBB isnt the first game to be played with different options turned on for more competive play, just look at MvC2 and Street Fighter. Yet those communites continue to thrive. If pros of these games can absorb new players into their folds and show them the ropes, why can't we do so with a game that is leagues easier to adapt to?

As for the online comment, again your playing online and more or less forfit the idea of a 100% skill based match. Not to mention the transition from heavy to normal and back again only drasticly affects 3 characters. Any tech changes can be adapted to in the first five min when you realize offensive<camping and edge gimping is not so simple.

 

[Beefylovelord]

Alright I'll bite.

What does heavy brawl do for my bowser when I'm already armed with the almighty koopa klaw, bane of the shieldgrabber?

What benefit does it offer me to give the floating little squirts a better air game on me, when I already experience little trouble approaching campers?

Perhaps my level of play hasn't been terribly good... enlighten this clearly incorrect chump as to why I should be chomping at the bit to break out my turtle in heavy brawl.

 

[DRaGZ]

Alright I'll bite.

What does heavy brawl do for my bowser when I'm already armed with the almighty koopa klaw, bane of the shieldgrabber?

What benefit does it offer me to give the floating little squirts a better air game on me, when I already experience little trouble approaching campers?

Perhaps my level of play hasn't been terribly good... enlighten this clearly incorrect chump as to why I should be chomping at the bit to break out my turtle in heavy brawl.

Approach is only part of the issue. I can approach pretty well myself in regular Brawl. The larger problem is the follow-up game and punishment: characters are just too dang floaty to be chased after one hit, especially from a powerhouse like Bowser. Heavy Brawl allows a punishment game to exist, thus making it less attractive to be a pure camper.

Bowser also gets a better air game, just to let you know. Everyone does.

 

[Beefylovelord]

What do I care about follow up or stringing hits together? As the heaviest dump in the game, and as one of its hardest hitters, how wouldn't a single blow bob and weavefest not play into my hands, assuming I have the talent to approach through jerry blow R.O.B/Snake/Pit/etc's hail of fire?

Why would I want to make myself combo-able when I enjoy a blow by blow advantage, and can eat plenty of attacks in relieve safety just to train the guy and set him up for a knockout, not to mention having the suicide option to always hang over their head when they're lingering dangerously close to the edge.

Sell me that snake oil.

I want to be convinced.

 

[.kR0]

Played it, recorded some matches with characters we thought would benefit
Pros
-Characters with amazing bairs but high short hop/****ty fast fall gets buffed like mad
-increases the speed of the overall match
-slightly easier to string together moves
-nerfs the incredibly gay airdodge mechanic (at least when you're off the ledge)

Cons
-Camping on Final D is still gay (can be considered worse due to the less height of short hops)
-Momentum based recoveries (Sonic, D3, Ike's >B, Samus, Links/Toon ,Diddy, etc) gets nerfed like ****
-Characters can't short hop-fastfall some of their moves (Ike's nair)
-The gay kind of gimping comes back (Rob's bthrow/fthrow->fair is a instant stock on most characters. Nothing you really do since airdodging isn't an option anymore. You fall too fast)

Disco (Ike, Samus, Diddy, Wolf) vs. Reaver (Kirby, Cpt. Falcon, Lucario, Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xosSI_wCJA8

 

[Eternal Neo]

Played it, recorded some matches with characters we thought would benefit
Pros
-Characters with amazing bairs but high short hop/****ty fast fall gets buffed like mad
-increases the speed of the overall match
-slightly easier to string together moves
-nerfs the incredibly gay airdodge mechanic (at least when you're off the ledge)

Cons
-Camping on Final D is still gay (can be considered worse due to the less height of short hops)
-Momentum based recoveries (Sonic, D3, Ike's >B, Samus, Links/Toon ,Diddy, etc) gets nerfed like ****
-Characters can't short hop-fastfall some of their moves (Ike's nair)
-The gay kind of gimping comes back (Rob's bthrow/fthrow->fair is a instant stock on most characters. Nothing you really do since airdodging isn't an option anymore. You fall too fast)

Disco (Ike, Samus, Diddy, Wolf) vs. Reaver (Kirby, Cpt. Falcon, Lucario, Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xosSI_wCJA8

Thank you for posting this. It's nice to have some good human vs human matches. Watching them really shows the amount of potential heavy brawl has over regular.

 

[DRaGZ]

What do I care about follow up or stringing hits together? As the heaviest dump in the game, and as one of its hardest hitters, how wouldn't a single blow bob and weavefest not play into my hands, assuming I have the talent to approach through jerry blow R.O.B/Snake/Pit/etc's hail of fire?

Why would I want to make myself combo-able when I enjoy a blow by blow advantage, and can eat plenty of attacks in relieve safety just to train the guy and set him up for a knockout, not to mention having the suicide option to always hang over their head when they're lingering dangerously close to the edge.

Sell me that snake oil.

I want to be convinced.

-_-...it seems like your entire basis for being convinced about Heavy Brawl rests in your own main, which is a very selfish reason, but an indulgence I'll humor in any case.

First off, Bowser's suicide option isn't very good: it's only worth doing when you're a higher percentage than your opponent (preferably significantly higher), but by that point your opponent controls you anyway. You're not going to get any reliable kills against an informed opponent this way.

Second, a blow-by-blow style of fight, no matter how much priority your character has, would eventually lead to averaged damage distributions, primarily because there are enough rock-paper-scissor encounters in regular Brawl, due to the floatiness, to facilitate this (ever notice why a lot of the time matches tend to end up with both players at one stock and not much beyond 50% damage between each other?). Heavy Brawl, on the other hand, makes these encounters less frequent because each encounter does significantly more damage. The key difference here is that this makes each of these encounters far more valuable because punishment for failing is higher. This makes each mindgame encounter far more valuable than before, thus rewarding the better tactician more often.

Third, it's not snake oil if it actually works. Then it's medicine.

Played it, recorded some matches with characters we thought would benefit
Pros
-Characters with amazing bairs but high short hop/****ty fast fall gets buffed like mad
-increases the speed of the overall match
-slightly easier to string together moves
-nerfs the incredibly gay airdodge mechanic (at least when you're off the ledge)

Cons
-Camping on Final D is still gay (can be considered worse due to the less height of short hops)
-Momentum based recoveries (Sonic, D3, Ike's >B, Samus, Links/Toon ,Diddy, etc) gets nerfed like ****
-Characters can't short hop-fastfall some of their moves (Ike's nair)
-The gay kind of gimping comes back (Rob's bthrow/fthrow->fair is a instant stock on most characters. Nothing you really do since airdodging isn't an option anymore. You fall too fast)

Disco (Ike, Samus, Diddy, Wolf) vs. Reaver (Kirby, Cpt. Falcon, Lucario, Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xosSI_wCJA8

Thanks dude. I will post the video and your pros/cons in the OP.

 

[JugaBro]

What do I care about follow up or stringing hits together? As the heaviest dump in the game, and as one of its hardest hitters, how wouldn't a single blow bob and weavefest not play into my hands, assuming I have the talent to approach through jerry blow R.O.B/Snake/Pit/etc's hail of fire?

Why would I want to make myself combo-able when I enjoy a blow by blow advantage, and can eat plenty of attacks in relieve safety just to train the guy and set him up for a knockout, not to mention having the suicide option to always hang over their head when they're lingering dangerously close to the edge.

Sell me that snake oil.

I want to be convinced.

What do you care about follow up or stringing hits together? This isn't all about you, others actually might want to combo to show their ability to do so, and actually help win the game, instead of their ability to press a button to make someone go flying (not trying to flame your tactic). And just because ONE character can use the Bowsercide move, which you talked about in the last post, can be used does not make the whole game dandy, since not everyone uses Bowser.

Now since you obviously care about Bowser and dont want him to be gimped: he isn't, at least no more or less than any other character for the post part. You can still do your Bowsercide of course, but you can also combo and edgeguard efficiently.

Also, in your comment in your last post about the little "squirts" getting a better airgame... so are you. The heavy characters get a better airgame also. Everyone is HEAVIER, not lighter, and the lighter characters actually drop more in total height when switching from normal mode to heavy mode than the heavier characters. Heavy mode is NOT broken to help one character over all the others.

About the aproaching campers bit you talked about in your last post...
We were never saying it helped approach campers. We're saying that it helps make it worth it to get up close, so one can actually deal punishment instead of hitting the enemy once and making them go fly far away out of your reach to hit again. Generaly, you'd have gotten more damage from getting up close to an enemy than from that one or two hits you get. How often do you get combos over 3 hits in Brawl? Not so often, right?

Anyway, I'll just tell you that there is no reason for you not wanting Bowser in heavy brawl. Your main issue seemed to be that it would benefit others, and not Bowser. On the contrary, it would help Bowser immensly, considering that he is one of those characters that tend to make people go flying in one hit.

EDIT: Please dont feel like DRaGZ and I are attacking you, we kinda posted one minute apart, so we didn't realy know we'd be posting to you twice, since we'd both be able to basically tell you the same thing (in different words). Anyway, read both our messages to see what we say. ^^

 

[mangodurban]

get over it, brawl is fine the way it is. The characters are so even and heavy brawl will un-even all they did in development. Things like ruining multi jump characters and toon links up b are huge issues. Maby you should learn how to combo with the new gravity, or let a few brawl tournaments actually take place before you say its broken. its not broken, just new. As for campers, they get wrecked by me (pika or g&w), im not saying heavy brawl woldnt be better. No thats what im saying, it un evens the game and isn't available online, unless you think people should get used to both (stupid) or quit playing online (stupid).

 

[DD151]

The characters are so even and heavy brawl will un-even all they did in development.

the characters are not even. sorry.

Things like ruining multi jump characters and toon links up b are huge issues.

ruined is a huge overstatement. compromising a great recovery still makes a good recovery.

Maby you should learn how to combo with the new gravity,

good luck doing something that's not possible.

As for campers, they get wrecked by me (pika or g&w),

they get wrecked by two characters! wow!

 

[Eaode]

I've been playing in heavy mode with my friend lately, and it's really fun. Chain throws are more common now, combos are slihtly longer, and it just feels better overall.

I do have replays saved, but I don't have any recording equipment. If you want me to, I could get your Wii and Brawl codes and send them to you, for you to record.

 

[Beefylovelord]

-_-...it seems like your entire basis for being convinced about Heavy Brawl rests in your own main, which is a very selfish reason, but an indulgence I'll humor in any case.

First off, Bowser's suicide option isn't very good: it's only worth doing when you're a higher percentage than your opponent (preferably significantly higher), but by that point your opponent controls you anyway. You're not going to get any reliable kills against an informed opponent this way.

Second, a blow-by-blow style of fight, no matter how much priority your character has, would eventually lead to averaged damage distributions, primarily because there are enough rock-paper-scissor encounters in regular Brawl, due to the floatiness, to facilitate this (ever notice why a lot of the time matches tend to end up with both players at one stock and not much beyond 50% damage between each other?). Heavy Brawl, on the other hand, makes these encounters less frequent because each encounter does significantly more damage. The key difference here is that this makes each of these encounters far more valuable because punishment for failing is higher. This makes each mindgame encounter far more valuable than before, thus rewarding the better tactician more often.

Third, it's not snake oil if it actually works. Then it's medicine.

Bowsers improved horizontal movement with brawls said floatiness allows a very aggressive offstage pursuit game, and it works very well with koopa klaw. KO's happen at higher health in brawl, but getting a man a decent was offstage is still quite easy. . I don't care how much he's cramming his airdodge, you read him right and land it offstage, he's not going to make it back on fighting me for control unless I'm at like 300%. In which case I'm prolly already 2 stocking him.

Next- Averaged damage distribution is just what I want. Let him and me have the same value. you telling m that 100% on Luigi or Rob is is a favorable position to be in when compared to 100% on bowser? Nope. Thats an advantage for me, He's in ko range, I am not unless I do something amazingly stupid. I don't see any reason why I'd want to think about stringing and combos when that plays so well into bowsers hands.

And of course its selfish, perhaps you haven't heard about how tourney play is done, but if you're marketing this for the new completive format, then its definitely about me, why should I endorse a format that I don't believe contributes to my winning? Who cares if no one knows my name, thats just the mindset of any tourney player. Why throw the other guy a bone when you can win sans- it? You are marketing this because it helps "YOUR" game. Nothing more, nothing less... regardless of how you might try and spit shine it.


Claiming your snake oil works does not make it medicine

It's still snake oil unless the person you're trying to sell it to believes it.

I don't.

 

[kainsword]

As the TC stated, some people would rather play regular Brawl as the game was intended to, rather than break the system like we've done in Melee. We play how it was not intended to in order to force the game to be great. If we're going to get more AT's, we really just need to have a more balanced offensive game. Sakurai REALLY nailed down the offensive game of Brawl with floatier physics, godspeed shielding, larger parameter stages (Killing Zone is far away), and higher knockbacks at low percentages.

This punishes the concept... of well... punishing the opponent. The physics FAVOR defensive strategies to such an extent that it's rediculous. For example: Pit is extremely campy, and works well with the physics of the game. Mirror Shield, Angel Ring, Arrow Projectiles, detached hitboxes with his Bow-Blade, and awesome recovery with multi-jumps, limited flight, and gliding.

Right now, I believe more people would be happy if this game was really Melee 2.0.

 

[JugaBro]

Bowsers improved horizontal movement with brawls said floatiness allows a very aggressive offstage pursuit game, and it works very well with koopa klaw. KO's happen at higher health in brawl, but getting a man a decent was offstage is still quite easy. . I don't care how much he's cramming his airdodge, you read him right and land it offstage, he's not going to make it back on fighting me for control unless I'm at like 300%. In which case I'm prolly already 2 stocking him.

Next- Averaged damage distribution is just what I want. Let him and me have the same value. you telling m that 100% on Luigi or Rob is is a favorable position to be in when compared to 100% on bowser? Nope. Thats an advantage for me, He's in ko range, I am not unless I do something amazingly stupid. I don't see any reason why I'd want to think about stringing and combos when that plays so well into bowsers hands.

And of course its selfish, perhaps you haven't heard about how tourney play is done, but if you're marketing this for the new completive format, then its definitely about me, why should I endorse a format that I don't believe contributes to my winning? Who cares if no one knows my name, thats just the mindset of any tourney player. Why throw the other guy a bone when you can win sans- it? You are marketing this because it helps "YOUR" game. Nothing more, nothing less... regardless of how you might try and spit shine it.


Claiming your snake oil works does not make it medicine

It's still snake oil unless the person you're trying to sell it to believes it.

I don't.

I still dont believe the thing about getting people offstage easily with Bowsercide. Everytime I've done it, people could DI easily. Besides, are you trying to have competitive Brawls Bowser based on easy to do suicide kills?

With the thought on even KO distribution, I'm confused what you were refuting from DRaGZ post, and I'm not sure what the argument is, I'll skip that.

With the being selfish thing... did you ever realize that these "AT's" were unintended in the game also, but are used anyway? They weren't meant to be there, but they existed. These AT's gave advantages to players in this game and in Melee, but I dont see new players complaining about their favorite character not having as many AT's or the best ones. The only reason you dont want to allow heavy brawl for its advantages and disadvantages is because its more noticable, its a game function. For some reason we lets these "AT's" slide when we clearly know Sakurai didn't want them to exist, they are game glitches. It's not that I'm against AT's at all, I realy love their existance, what I'm saying is that there were things used and allowed in tournies that disadvantaged certain characters, and I never heard of people complaining about that. Heavy Brawl is the same thing (read one of the posts at the bottom of the first page, it basically says the same thing). Of course we're not going to endorse winning such as campy wins, that doesn't show any progress in playing ability (unless you count running away and camping a hard skill to learn...the ability to be "perfect" at camping isn't realy that hard, thats why people do it). Also, we do not want heavy brawl because it makes our characters alone better. We want it because of the same thing we have posted many times, along with many other small things- this game was made with the defensive player at an advantage. Anyway, you can read the whole of this thread for much of what we have to repeat over and over.

 

[DRaGZ]

Bowsers improved horizontal movement with brawls said floatiness allows a very aggressive offstage pursuit game, and it works very well with koopa klaw. KO's happen at higher health in brawl, but getting a man a decent was offstage is still quite easy. . I don't care how much he's cramming his airdodge, you read him right and land it offstage, he's not going to make it back on fighting me for control unless I'm at like 300%. In which case I'm prolly already 2 stocking him.

Next- Averaged damage distribution is just what I want. Let him and me have the same value. you telling m that 100% on Luigi or Rob is is a favorable position to be in when compared to 100% on bowser? Nope. Thats an advantage for me, He's in ko range, I am not unless I do something amazingly stupid. I don't see any reason why I'd want to think about stringing and combos when that plays so well into bowsers hands.

And of course its selfish, perhaps you haven't heard about how tourney play is done, but if you're marketing this for the new completive format, then its definitely about me, why should I endorse a format that I don't believe contributes to my winning? Who cares if no one knows my name, thats just the mindset of any tourney player. Why throw the other guy a bone when you can win sans- it? You are marketing this because it helps "YOUR" game. Nothing more, nothing less... regardless of how you might try and spit shine it.


Claiming your snake oil works does not make it medicine

It's still snake oil unless the person you're trying to sell it to believes it.

I don't.

Well, on the snake oil issue, it's still snake oil if the user believe it. That's the point of snake oil.

Also, Luigi and R.O.B. actually are in a good position because they're much faster than Bowser is and have a better chance of racking up damage (assuming both players are at about equal skill levels). R.O.B., in particular, would have the advantage in this case because he's still at non-KO percentage but Bowser is at a low enough percentage for a f-air spamming gimp kill. R.O.B.'s attacks are also much faster and do more damage in a smaller frame of time than Bowser. They also have massive knockback relative to their speed.

Also, against R.O.B. in regular Brawl, Bowser has few weapons to properly deal with R.O.B.'s powerful projectile game, putting him at a disadvantage anyway.

And it doesn't really help my game. Against my friends in regular Brawl, I would nearly always in win. In Heavy Brawl, they're starting to get better than me...

Also, a competitive player ultimately plays for the sake of having fun competition (money aside, which is not an issue for like 80% of the competitive players out there). If competition is boring, even if your main kicks ***, why play if it's boring?

And while we're on the subject of "competitive players doing anything to win", regular Brawl promotes these players to play as campy as they can because it works. If you're adhering to that philosophy, then you should be prepared for a crappy time with your Bowser at tournaments, because Bowser in regular Brawl has few options to deal with a decent camper.

Your priorities are really wonky here.

 

[Iraku]

Eh, I tried Heavy Brawl out for a good while, with a few different characters, and I must say, it is pretty good for the most part. There's not much to say about it being good, but something about Pokémon Trainer suddenly made him hard to work with. Squirtle's air game doesn't seem to be as good, and Charizard's jumping is horrendous. I could get used to Ness and Lucas after some time, with their recoveries having to hit themselves with PK Thunder, but recovering with Charizard can be tough even with upb. If you have items on, metal Charizard is even worse. Otherwise, I've changed my mind about Heavy Brawl, and I could see some competitions with it.

 

[DRaGZ]

Eh, I tried Heavy Brawl out for a good while, with a few different characters, and I must say, it is pretty good for the most part. There's not much to say about it being good, but something about Pokémon Trainer suddenly made him hard to work with. Squirtle's air game doesn't seem to be as good, and Charizard's jumping is horrendous. I could get used to Ness and Lucas after some time, with their recoveries having to hit themselves with PK Thunder, but recovering with Charizard can be tough even with upb. If you have items on, metal Charizard is even worse. Otherwise, I've changed my mind about Heavy Brawl, and I could see some competitions with it.

Charizard's recovery is hindered; it becomes more pertinent to master his gliding abilities. His aerial game gets a bit of a boost in the process.

However, I felt that Squirtle's and Ivysaur's aerial game became greatly buffed...Squirtle in particular is like a frickin' bullet and Ivysaur's whipping aerials are particularly dangerous now.

Meh.

 

[BreakBones]

sry i'm not a pro XD..i just enjoy heavy brawl soooo much more

get over it, brawl is fine the way it is. The characters are so even and heavy brawl will un-even all they did in development. Things like ruining multi jump characters and toon links up b are huge issues. Maby you should learn how to combo with the new gravity, or let a few brawl tournaments actually take place before you say its broken. its not broken, just new. As for campers, they get wrecked by me (pika or g&w), im not saying heavy brawl woldnt be better. No thats what im saying, it un evens the game and isn't available online, unless you think people should get used to both (stupid) or quit playing online (stupid).

ok, mangodurban i have nothing against u personally and i hope u dont take this post offensively because i'm just using it as an example.

First, as it's been said the characters are currently un-even as the video the OP showed.(just uneven not unbeatable)

Second, toon link will have an amazing offense especially in heavy brawl, then he'll have a weak recovery, which makes him more balanced. ( Just like many other characters)

Third, this really annoys me people saying "learn to make new combo's" or "it's not melee 2.0, get used to it" ummm haven't ppl realized yet? it's the physics of the game...not the players, u can't make more approaches/ combos if you tried, well not at least nearly as good/fun as in melee. In which it was fun trying to think up combos for characters and trying to escape someones combo. (unlike Brawl with like 4 hits max and running in on a hope n a prayer)

Fourth(Negative), he's definitely right about the online play becoming more useless, making less players to play, but who knows it might make some players have to come to tournies to play competitively which would make tournament play more fun with a much bigger amt of ppl.

 

[Beefylovelord]

Well, on the snake oil issue, it's still snake oil if the user believe it. That's the point of snake oil.

Also, Luigi and R.O.B. actually are in a good position because they're much faster than Bowser is and have a better chance of racking up damage (assuming both players are at about equal skill levels). R.O.B., in particular, would have the advantage in this case because he's still at non-KO percentage but Bowser is at a low enough percentage for a f-air spamming gimp kill. R.O.B.'s attacks are also much faster and do more damage in a smaller frame of time than Bowser. They also have massive knockback relative to their speed.

Also, against R.O.B. in regular Brawl, Bowser has few weapons to properly deal with R.O.B.'s powerful projectile game, putting him at a disadvantage anyway.

And it doesn't really help my game. Against my friends in regular Brawl, I would nearly always in win. In Heavy Brawl, they're starting to get better than me...

Also, a competitive player ultimately plays for the sake of having fun competition (money aside, which is not an issue for like 80% of the competitive players out there). If competition is boring, even if your main kicks ***, why play if it's boring?

And while we're on the subject of "competitive players doing anything to win", regular Brawl promotes these players to play as campy as they can because it works. If you're adhering to that philosophy, then you should be prepared for a crappy time with your Bowser at tournaments, because Bowser in regular Brawl has few options to deal with a decent camper.

Your priorities are really wonky here.

Pardon if I don't believe your friends statement for a second. You'll just have to live with that.

Do not bore me with your empty competitive player statistics. I've yet to find a tourney player that doesn't find winning fun. Regardless of how he gets there.

As far as Robs advantages on bowser, I'm sorry, do you main bowser? If not I don't see what weight your statements can carry- Perhaps I'm fighting bad robs, but what I do know is that approaching the top is about as hard as tapping fire breath. its not hard to halt it. Let alone the fun that comes with picking the top up after you stop it with breath.

I like fighting players who *give* bowser his own range game. Its not like carrying it gives him much of a problem moving in from the air after, koopa klaw approach is business as normal.

Perhaps its because I actually learned to play outside of speedspeedspeed. I actually have some patience.

 

[DRaGZ]

Pardon if I don't believe your friends statement for a second. You'll just have to live with that.

Do not bore me with your empty competitive player statistics. I've yet to find a tourney player that doesn't find winning fun. Regardless of how he gets there.

As far as Robs advantages on bowser, I'm sorry, do you main bowser? If not I don't see what weight your statements can carry- Perhaps I'm fighting bad robs, but what I do know is that approaching the top is about as hard as tapping fire breath. its not hard to halt it. Let alone the fun that comes with picking the top up after you stop it with breath.

I like fighting players who *give* bowser his own range game. Its not like carrying it gives him much of a problem moving in from the air after, koopa klaw approach is business as normal.

Perhaps its because I actually learned to play outside of speedspeedspeed. I actually have some patience.

Really? You don't see competitive players leaving Brawl even though they were winning consistently? People such as Gimpyfish, Hugs, Eggm, NintendoKing, Blizz, etc.?

You also seem to think camping is just R.O.B. projectiling you, which is barely half of camping, if the camping character even has projectiles to begin with. I have a whole mess of options to counter your extremely predictable and laggy Bowser Flame.

And lastly, we're not really trying to emphasize speed speed speed (at least I'm not). Personally, I play with a very conservative Wolf, a conservative to aggressive Ganondorf, a very aggressive R.O.B., an extremely conservative Toon Link, etc. Speedily attacking isn't a big part of my game to be honest, it's taking the open shots where I see them and then capitalizing with follow-ups.

I'm sure that's what you're doing as well.

 

[Mario77]

Wow, that video you posted as your camping example, is two players playing a terrible game. A good ROB vs a good SNAKE, the match would not be so stupid. ROB can only use his laser and Gyro 1-2 times before Snake can easily approach him without worrying about projectiles....

Show a vid of good players playing their best. you wont see noob camping like that.

SNAKE WAS CAMPING ON PURPOSE CUZ HE EITHER SUCKED OR JUST WAS GOOFING AROUND. You know snakes best option was to run in and attack after ROBs lasers were down. NOT throw lame grenades.

ALSO, that snake let ROB laser him like 40 times wtihout shielding!

BETTER EXAMPLE VID PLEASE

Also.... Brawl is hopeless , its just not cut out to be a competitive game... I realy wish it was though. Cuz it's way cooler than Melee. Having to change the gravity might make it more competitive in a way, but it will never catch on and it's also unfair to ppl that play with characters that get 'nerfed' due to a gravity change.

 

[nviv]

Wow, that video you posted as your camping example, is two players playing a terrible game. A good ROB vs a good SNAKE, the match would not be so stupid. ROB can only use his laser and Gyro 1-2 times before Snake can easily approach him without worrying about projectiles....

Show a vid of good players playing their best. you wont see noob camping like that.

SNAKE WAS CAMPING ON PURPOSE CUZ HE EITHER SUCKED OR JUST WAS GOOFING AROUND. You know snakes best option was to run in and attack after ROBs lasers were down. NOT throw lame grenades.

ALSO, that snake let ROB laser him like 40 times wtihout shielding!

BETTER EXAMPLE VID PLEASE

Also.... Brawl is hopeless , its just not cut out to be a competitive game... I realy wish it was though. Cuz it's way cooler than Melee. Having to change the gravity might make it more competitive in a way, but it will never catch on and it's also unfair to ppl that play with characters that get 'nerfed' due to a gravity change.

Your still thinking of camping as being specifically projectile camping that is not what camping is referring to, even without projectiles ROB would be at an advantage if snake chose to simply rush in just because his projectiles were down.

Also the video is no more than an example of what the game could develop into, if you looked hard enough you could find a video that goes with any argument you can come up with. One video example shouldn't be taken with much backing it is just there to show the potential of what could happen, not prove an argument correct or incorrect.

 

[Ekul]

Look, if it's in the game it's part of the game. I would say that if you needed an external device to change the gravity, then I would be against it. However, if the game is more viable competitive and it's an option then go for it. Stock is not the primary mode, it is in fact an option. Items and stages off are also options that make the game a little more balanced and approachable.

 

[Firestorm88]

If you want influential members' opinion, you're likely out of luck. I remember a post saying the Back Room will in no way promote Heavy Brawl as the primary way of playing the competitively.