Ground Zero Mosque

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

As you might have heard, they are building a mosque close to ground zero, causing some controversy.

Should we build it there? Should we not?

 

[Lore]

I personally have no problem with them building it, but I think that they are complete idiots for doing it.

Unfortunately, many people still blame the Islamic religion for 9/11, and if you build a mosque near the site of the disaster, there is definitely going to be trouble.

I would not be surprised if the mosque is burned down or vandalized within a month.

Besides all that, it just seems to me like a cry for media attention.

 

[Firus]

They have a legal right to build it there, and it was Islamic extremists that committed the terrorist attacks of 9/11, so there's no reason they shouldn't be able to build it.

But as Werekill said, there are so many people who can't separate the extremists from the normal muslims, so many people outraged by this, that by building it there, they'll wind up with hate, anger, protests, and potential vandalizing.

It's really not a smart idea to do it, whether it's legally their right or not. I can't help but wonder why they decided to do it, merely because the hate should've been pretty predictable.

 

[Deleted member]

I can't help but wonder why they decided to do it, merely because the hate should've been pretty predictable.

Because there already is something quite like it (gotta double check if there now only is a mosque or an islamic community centre), which was getting overcrowded.

 

[Crimson King]

First off, they aren't building it ON Ground Zero. I believe it's a few blocks from it. Secondly, it's a Muslim owned community center with one floor for prayers, ala the YMCA. Finally, there already was a mosque in the area in the basement of a night club where they've prayed for years.

If the Westboro Baptists blew up a building, and then a baptist church was built nearby, no one would bat an eye.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

First off, they aren't building it ON Ground Zero. I believe it's a few blocks from it. Secondly, it's a Muslim owned community center with one floor for prayers, ala the YMCA. Finally, there already was a mosque in the area in the basement of a night club where they've prayed for years.

If the Westboro Baptists blew up a building, and then a baptist church was built nearby, no one would bat an eye.

This right here.

There is a mosque which five blocks closer than Park 51 which opened early 1971 iirc (WTC opened late 1971) and has been there since.

Yeah exploitation and fear mongering!

I typically don't care much for Olbermann (he should go back to Sportscenter :3), but here is an editorial which shows how blown out of proportion this is.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/

Sums it up nicely.

To put it bluntly, if you are against this mosque, you are:
1. Probably exploiting the situation for political gain
2. Islamophobic, willing to group all muslims in with the "alleged" 9/11 terrorists
3. Anti-american, against probably the most basic ground rule for a functional and active democracy (first amendment)
4. A complete idiot who listens to whatever Glenn Beck/Rush Limbaugh/Sarah Palin tells you
5. Underinformed, believing it to be placed on the 9/11 site itself

Pick and choose a few of those. For most people, it's the last 4. For the rest, it's the first one.

If you are against this mosque, you are ****ing ********. And against the very basics of american policy.

Examples:
-My father was only 5. He thought it was on ground zero and found that wrong due to the government-sponsored nature of the site. Once he heard that this was not the case, then he revised his stance to similar to mine-opposition to this is ****ing ********.
-The republican party and Fox News are 1, and by association 3. Do you think they really care about the mosque there? No, they want to fan the flames, and cause a political scene. This is evidenced by the fact that they are purposefully saying that it's right on ground zero (as opposed to the accurate "2 city blocks away"). They want another partisan wedge issue. Homosexuality is so 2005.
-My redneck neighbors are 2, 4, and 5. Pretty much lost causes. And by association, 3.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Agreed.

A lot of people who found out about the issue thought that the mosque itself was right on the site. The fact that it's actually a few blocks away and is truthfully unrelated to the whole thing itself pretty much shows that anyone against it has no idea what exactly is going on.

And if they are still against it, refer to BPC.

Unfortunately, for most Americans, the entire Islamic religion was the cause of the 9/11 attacks, not a few extremists of the same faith.

 

[Lore]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/

Sums it up nicely.

To put it bluntly, if you are against this mosque, you are:
-Probably exploiting the situation for political gain
-Islamophobic, willing to group all muslims in with the "alleged" 9/11 terrorists
-Anti-american, against probably the most basic ground rule for a functional and active democracy (first amendment)
-A complete idiot who listens to whatever Glenn Beck/Rush Limbaugh/Sarah Palin tells you
-Underinformed, believing it to be placed on the 9/11 site itself

Pick and choose a few of those. For most people, it's the last 4. For the rest, it's the first one.

If you are against this mosque, you are ****ing ********. And against the very basics of american policy.

I agree with most of those reasons, and I personally have no issue legally with putting a mosque in that location.

However, I'm pretty much against the building of the mosque. I may have absolutely no problem with building it, but:

Unfortunately, many people still blame the Islamic religion for 9/11, and if you build a mosque near the site of the disaster, there is definitely going to be trouble.

I would not be surprised if the mosque is burned down or vandalized within a month.

Even though I'm all for it because of 1st ammendment rights, etc, I still think that it is a stupid idea because of the idiots that are part of America.

Does that make me "****ing ********," BPC?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Possibly. If we are willing to bow down to the complete idiots in the nation, and create a double standard, jeopardize our civil liberties for them... Then the "terrorists" won.

I know it's a stupid idea, and that it'll get people upset. Do I remove my support for it because of that? No! It means that the uninformed people, those who are easily manipulated, those that have no idea what they are talking about, those who are simply afraid of what they don't know, and those who despise Islam simply for being a different religion WIN. They WIN if we give up because of them. I don't care if they're a majority or not. A majority of Americans don't believe that evolutionary theory is scientifically legitimate; a large number of them fail to recognize scientific process at all. "The masses are *****", or, as a famous conversation goes:
"The truly beautiful part about our system is that the power is in the hands of the populace."
"Yeah, but have you taken a look at the general populace recently?"

 

[Lore]

By the generally accepted logic of "majority rules,", it's pointless to even try to build the mosque.

If the majority is against the mosque, anyone who is "patriotic" enough to burn down the mosque will be seen as a hero by the majority. If they don't even build the mosque, the majority will pat themselves on the back for rooting out evil in America.

It's a win-win situation either way for the opposition, so why should anyone build it?

I'd also argue that the terrorists have already won, but that's a completely different debate.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

My view:

Can they build it?
Yes, I don't see why not.

Should they build it there?
No, as idiotic Americans will keep on hating.

 

[Deleted member]

Why would you not want them to build the mosque when clearly the problem is Americans are being under informed (to put it nicely)?

 

[Sucumbio]

It'll probably get vandalized or worse if they do decide to build it. It'll become a symbol of hatred and intolerance and ignorance. It'll go further, becoming a structural martyr for Islamic freedom. It'll then extol fundamentalist "patriots" of Islam, ie terrorists.

In essence this is a no-win situation. Build it, and terrorists will gain favor among non-terrorists because of how poorly Americans treat them. Build it not, and terrorists will gain favor among non-terrorists because of how poorly Americans treated them.

Add to this the funding for this project is in question, be it because News Corp. (Fox News owner) is involved, or because Hamas has piped in... oh and Obama's a Muslim now because he supports it *sigh*

 

[El Nino]

Well, leftists don't have a reputation for being spineless out of nothing.

I think if we allow this to be swept under the rug, it's still going to be a problem. Prejudice doesn't disappear just being we choose to avoid confrontation. It still lingers in the collective consciousness, and then it becomes a powder keg waiting for a spark. There are plenty of opportunistic career politicians looking to exploit that, and then we'll have a situation where prejudice becomes a cornerstone of public policy. That situation is dangerous because then the idiots would be indirectly steering the bus.

Whatever happens, this is a discussion U.S. society needs to be having. But is it going to be productive? If only I were optimistic enough to say yes...

 

[SuperBowser]

Originally I was neutral on this issue. After reading various articles and discussions about this subject over the last month I think the mosque should be built. It's become ever so clear the objections we hear are nothing to do with preserving respect for 9/11. We wouldn't hear the things these crowds have said, we wouldn't see a nationwide protest and we wouldn't see the snowball effect it's had. We are witnessing simple racism; I don't believe silence will resolve this issue at all. It may be a quick fix right now, but the underlying cause will remain. Giving in will reinforce the childish and intolerant behaviour of these protesters and only provide precedent for future objections.

I can imagine there are many muslims who do not want this mosque built. Some people will just want to live their lives without fears of any backlash. Unfortunately, I think there is no choice. Bigotry of this nature needs to be tackled head-on or nothing will change.

Maybe that would be an interesting topic. How to tackle racism?

 

[DoH]

Fake controversy is fake.

 

[Evil Eye]

Hah, this is what I get for posting late at night. I saw the Ground Zero Mosque link on the main index, thinking it was this topic, and ended up posting in... the Proving Grounds.

Le sigh.





I'm surprised by how few see the inherent issues in institutionalized pandering to bigotry. (oh wow, epic accidental alliteration right there)

BPC is dead on with his social dilemma; concessions make failures of Americans as citizens of a free nation, and a failure of America itself as a free nation. And yes, sometimes moral victories do matter -- may I please direct you to Ms. Rosa Parks. Sometimes the adequate amount of attention (there I go again with alliterations) will drum up the right kinds of attention that will lead to enlightenment. I want to believe that North American culture is still capable of as much.

Let's take it a step farther, though. First of all, there's the simplest fact of the matter -- refuse the mosque, the bigots win. Undeniable. No one is arguing this point, right? The bigoted and/or ignorant minority populations are the only populations that stand to gain by this course of action.

Remember Tim James? You risk a genuine slippery slope when you start making these kinds of concessions. Once you get to the point of institutionalized xenophobia, you're personally turning on the hose and cranking down the thermostat. The fact of the matter is that the bigoted minority is nothing if not loud. The old saw about giving people an inch and their fighting for a mile applies nicely.

The only way to defeat these people is to educate them out of existence with the younger generation, and then wait around for the old guard to die. One way to effect the former is to force people to acknowledge the existence of Muslim-Americans, and more importantly, to learn the distinctions between the group in the abstract and the cosmetically similar (but, practically, infinitely different) fringe group that they despise.

I learned these distinctions because I studied Islamic history in college. But then again, I was never a racist or xenophobe to begin with, so I wouldn't expect this to be common-place. Another way is the best one to ice off some of that ignorance, and it's as simple as making people brush their shoulders against an Islamic person once in a while.

It was a long and prolonged battle to equality for African-Americans, but ditching the separate water fountains was a good start. Cultural collusion were always going to be the best way to genuinely fight ignorance; after all, what better light to shine to prejudice than real people? I can't think of a more potent debunker. It's hardly a perfect solution, and sits even further from a perfect success rate, but cultural blending has always been the only thing that can genuinely render xenophobia obsolete, even if a few people still end up clinging to it.

Sweeping Muslim-Americans under the carpet like some secret to be kept only fosters and enables ignorance and bigotry, because people are allowed to fill in the blanks with prejudice and presumption. And from there, "separate but equal" is just a hop, skip, and a jump away.

 

[Sucumbio]

Very true, EE. Course this mosque is being proposed to go up in NYC a few blocks from ground zero. It's like walking into Madison Square Garden with a Celtics T-shirt on. Might just get your *** kicked from there to Colorado, lol. Pushy, is another word that may get thrown around now. Remember when blacks were pushy? Because they demanded things like, equality, and stuff? I remember those days, back in the days of forced busing ... phew crazy.

:O a black person. in our school. walking on our streets.

is it me or does America -need- someone to hate, and since 9/11 its been the "towel heads." I mean before it may have just been a joke, like any racial slur or joke, but now... now it seems vindictive. Maybe if we'd caught Osama bin Laden maybe it wouldn't be such an issue... I dunno. But I know there's no way this thing'll get built without all kinds of backlash. El Nino is right also, yeah the discussion needs to happen.

The discussion.

Not the building of the mosque though... that needs to wait until the people of NYC are ready for something like that. They're obviously still hurting badly over the attacks, and want justice. This is just a kick in the teeth to so many of them. Well the loud ones, anyway.

 

[Evil Eye]

Calling the building of a mosque in that general area a "kick in the teeth to so many of them" is a passive acceptance and endorsement of ignorance. Islam and "muslim" extremism (note the quotes) are nothing alike. Say it with me! Islam and muslim extremism are nothing alike. Islam and muslim extremism are nothing alike.

No, seriously. They aren't. Terrorism is purely a political assault that uses misrepresentive vitriol and psychological manipulation to pose as a religious attack. I don't know what the hell religion they're representing, but it might as well have its own name, because it has as much in common with Islam as the Crusades did with Christianity.

I can't stress this enough. People become irrational in grief, yeah yeah. You know what? Tough ****. They've had nine years to sort out their irrational grief. It's time to stop backlashing for something that happened a decade ago on the most convenient target that had nothing to do with it. Oh man, Osama wears a turban! So does Mr. Faziz down at the 7-11! HATE HATE HATE.

You know what? Western society has more than used up its carte blanche with this BS. Their "right" to be bigoted morons that refuse to see the facts as they are needs some serious revokation. Like, right now. They want justice? Is that meant to be even a minute measure of justification? Because it isn't. If they want justice, they should enlist in the infantry and go fight some actual terrorists, not stay at home and victimize people who would have a hard time being more dissimilar from those monsters because they know they can't retaliate. Enough excuses.

A mosque is just a place where people go and pray. That's it. Anyone of any ethnicity or religion can go right ahead and do the same. This is the kind of cultural collusion that needs to happen for this racism and xenophobia to start washing out, because that problem isn't going to solve itself.

This should be seen as a victory for Americans. True equality, the American spirit in the face of controversy. Pursuit of life, liberty, and so on and so forth. People of all races and backgrounds putting aside their differences and being able to enjoy a peaceful sanctuary.

This should not be seen as a kick in the teeth. A kick in the teeth would be if actual extremists were to set up a propogandist rag to tell people all about the Great Satan and sing the praises of 9/11. This is my whole **** point. This entire mentality needs to change, and pandering to it only promotes its continued existence.

I'm kind of rambling because I've been up all night, but the basic fact of that matter is that I'm getting real **** tired of seeing this "kick in the teeth" mentality be treated like a valid perspective on this situation. It isn't. Period.

 

[Sucumbio]

I couldn't agree more! But, the loud ones, as we've coined here today... they're more than just wrong, and loud about it. They're dangerous. Build it, and it'll get burned down. Or maybe people going in will get assaulted. You've heard them on TV "We don't want this eye sore in our midst, build it somewhere else, not on this sacred ground" blah blah blah... with that annoying NYC accent (I'm from Boston, so I'm automatically biased against NYC ) ... it's obviously ignorance at play, and yeah, 9 years seems like a long time. But you gotta know New Yorkers. They're gonna ***** about this for -decades-. They're some of the most stuck up people I've ever met, as if NYC is somehow the ... Coruscant of America, of the World! Yeah ok, Wall Street is ... "big" whatever. I could honestly see the whole city evaporate in a flash of light and not feel one bit of pity. But that's neither here nor there. My point was that this "kick to the head" mentality is no illusion, it's exactly how they feel, and there's no -invalidating- it, not in a day, week, month, year, or as I said, even decades... it'll always come back to 9/11, and "those sand dwelling terrorists, should have just bombed the **** out of them when we had the chance, should just do it now, drop a nuke on the whole middle east and wait a few years for the radioactivity to subside then walk in and claim the oil." You could literally have this mosque going up -anywhere else- and it probably wouldn't even make national news. But because it's going up within earshot of "ground zero" it's like...

it's like getting beaten up by a bully in the playground, but your mom makes you invite him to your birthday party anyway because she wants to invite everyone in your class. and you have to, cause you have to do what your mom tells you to do.

 

[Evil Eye]

It's weird how we seeing to be agreeing with each other and yet disagreeing.

Nonetheless, you're approaching this the wrong way, because you aren't providing enough degrees of separation between Muslim-Americans and extremist terrorists. Even muslims in general, in the middle east, have little to nothing in common with them, but Muslim-Americans are a whole new entity entirely.

9 years seems like a long time. But you gotta know New Yorkers. They're gonna ***** about this for -decades-.

They can -- and are completely within their rights to -- be angry about 9/11 and hold a grudge about it. But there is no reasonable amount of time to hold this grudge against a convenient target that had nothing to do with it. Much less nine. ****ing. Years. It's time to stop rationalizing their mindset; when society stops endorsing all this xenophobia and starts pushing for clutural blending, that's the only way all this stupidity can erode.

it's like getting beaten up by a bully in the playground, but your mom makes you invite him to your birthday party anyway because she wants to invite everyone in your class. and you have to, cause you have to do what your mom tells you to do.

This is a very poor analogy. The "bully" in this comparison would refer to the terrorists, yes? Terrorists are terrorists. Muslims are not terrorists. Hell, terrorists are not really muslims. You're regarding them as the same group in this analogy, and it makes my skin crawl.

To use your own analogy, this is more like not inviting the bully to that part, and not wanting to invite the other boy in your grade whose extended family has some kind of vague connection to the bully's family, like working at the same office. The other boy and the bully are nothing alike, and don't even know each other, but you still desire to exclude him because you lump him in not merely as a companion to the bully, but as a fellow bully, as the SAME bully. The same person.

If that analogy expresses your mentality on this, I'm very disappointed. If that's you trying to articulate their feelings in a more eloquent manner... well, I'm still disapointed. My whole point has not been that the "kick in the head" mentality is an illusion, merely that it is wrong in every way that it could possibly be wrong, and that it needs to go away. For it to go away, we as a society have to formally and loudly refuse it, and to make it clear just how stupid it really is.

That means no more rationalizing it, no more trying to understand it, no more pandering to it. People who feel this way are stupid and wrong, and they need to be made to feel... stupid and wrong. Not just and righteous, and not even wrong but "entitled to this opinion".

 

[Mediocre]

it's like getting beaten up by a bully in the playground, but your mom makes you invite him to your birthday party anyway because she wants to invite everyone in your class. and you have to, cause you have to do what your mom tells you to do.

Wow.

Wow wow wow wow wow.

You just equated every Muslim-American with a terrorist. That is what you did. You essentially told us that, in your view, being Muslim is the same thing as being a terrorist.

If I were still a DH mod, I would be wondering how the heck you got in here, if that kind of bull****, racist argument is the best you can do.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

If I were still a DH mod, I would be wondering how the heck you got in here, if that kind of bull****, racist argument is the best you can do.

Ironically, he is a mod...

Anyway, I believe the term to be Islamophobic.

I think the Ground Zero Mosque isn't really that much of an issue in itself. It's not on ground zero and it therefore shouldn't really be called the "Ground Zero Mosque". In reality, it's just like any other mosque in NYC. Unfortunately, it's been labelled that and it shouldn't be.

I don't really think it should be built, it's slightly insensitive, like fanning the fire. Sure, xenophobia needs to be tackled head on, but I think it's just going to make the xenophobia worse; it gives normal people something else to worry about, and they're going to hate muslims because of it.

 

[Evil Eye]

I don't really think it should be built, it's slightly insensitive, like fanning the fire.

It's insensitive to whom? Bigots? Bigots can go to hell. To the families that lost people in 9/11? No. It. Isn't.

Either admit that you're positing that merely being a muslim is comparable to being a terrorist or concede this point, because it really is that simple. Muslim-Americans are not terrorists. Period. They are two entirely different groups, worlds apart, and hardly alike. There is no insensitivity here to anyone with the brain capacity and desire to understand this fact.

Sure, xenophobia needs to be tackled head on, but I think it's just going to make the xenophobia worse;

Show me a practical scenario where xenophobia can actually measurably increase as a result of this. I can't see that happening. The only way I can actually imagine a quantifiable increase in xenophobia is if more people become Islamophobic. The mere building of a mosque should not incite xenophobia against muslims in people who were not already as such. There is no reason for this. Not even an irrational one.

it gives normal people something else to worry about, and they're going to hate muslims because of it.

People who are worried by the presence of a mosque are not normal people. They are ignorant bigots.

People who hate muslims because of the presence of a mosque are not normal people. They are ignorant bigots.


And nothing you said does anything to dispute my or BPC's points that racism and xenophobia should be shunned, not legitimized.

 

[Mediocre]

I don't really think it should be built, it's slightly insensitive, like fanning the fire. Sure, xenophobia needs to be tackled head on, but I think it's just going to make the xenophobia worse; it gives normal people something else to worry about, and they're going to hate muslims because of it.

No.

It's the protesters who are being insensitive, not the Muslims who want to build their Mosque. The protesters are trying to force the would-be-builders to surrender one of their fundemental human rights. The would-be-builders are just trying to build a fricking Muslim community center.

Basically, what you are saying is, "Sure, xenophobia should be fought, except when doing so would offend people." That stance won't get you anywhere. Anytime anyone steps up for rights that are being denied to them, it is going to cause problems. Protesters for black rights got hosed, beaten, and otherwise harassed. However, because they stood up for those rights, they and their children now enjoy equality under the law.

People standing up for their rights isn't the cause of the problem. It's being denied those rights that is the cause of the problem.

EDIT: I'm not saying that Muslims are being denied legal equality. I'm just saying that it's important to stand up to people who would deny you your rights.

Ironically, he is a mod...

Anyway, I believe the term to be Islamophobic.

As long as he's not a DH mod, he may do his job just fine.

Thanks for giving me a more precise, and probably more accurate word.

 

[KrazyGlue]

I agree wholeheartedly with EE and Medi. It's not insensitive, a slap in the face, or fanning the fire to anyone other than, as EE aptly deemed them, ignorant bigots. People who are "Islamaphobic" are not just xenophobic; they are ignorant and headstrong as well. As in, they are determined to hate anything Islamic.

Now, what I think Bob and Suc are trying to point out is basically that the building of this mosque will incite hatred and potentially even violence, and I do agree with that. But I think the Muslims in america are trying to bring attention to the fact that they are persecuted and resented daily for no good reason, which I admire. And if some violence does result (and I'm sure they're well aware of the possibility), it will only do more to make the bigots look worse. Think about it: if the bigots attack the mosque, it will instantly be a huge news story, and will provoke outrage among all the reasonable american people. Maybe that is the push people need to educate their kids against such ignorance so we can start weakening "Islamaphobia" just as we did with racism.

In conclusion: This mosque is not insensitive to anyone, and nobody is going to be insulted by it except bigots. And if the bigots act out with violence, it will only show how unreasonable, ignorant, and brutish they are.

 

[El Nino]

it's like getting beaten up by a bully in the playground, but your mom makes you invite him to your birthday party anyway because she wants to invite everyone in your class. and you have to, cause you have to do what your mom tells you to do.

Is that an analogy of what the situation looks like to you, or how you feel it looks to the anti-mosque protesters?

I know you've mostly just been explaining how people in NY might feel. So I guess the debate here is how are the rest of us are supposed to respond.

On one hand, I want to offer support to people traumatized by 9/11. On the other hand, trauma is the intended effect of terrorism, along with paranoia and fear. All of those things will cause a population to behave irrationally. This is the effect you want if you are the perpetrator, because an irrational opponent is weak and prone to making bad decisions.

So, at some point, the people in the U.S. are going to have to recover from that trauma and learn to see the world rationally (again?). If not, then it's an Achilles Heel waiting to be exploited.

I think the Wallstreet Journal reported that certain groups have already been using the situation surrounding the community center at Park51 as proof that the U.S. is anti-Muslim, and using that to stir up emotions and recruit people toward their cause.

What some people don't seem to realize is that when you draw a line in the sand, you're putting the people on the other side in a do or die situation. If the U.S. chooses to be hostile to all Muslims, it's not giving the people in that community very many options. It's like they're being pushed to the side that's going to accept them, and that's not the American side right now.

Also, the attacks in New York seemed to be about deliberately starting a religious war. Meaning, the line in the sand between religions was drawn by the attackers. And now, certain groups in the U.S. are choosing to honor that line. I don't think that's a very intelligent thing to do. I don't think you ever want to get drawn into a fight where the other side chooses the circumstances or dictates the terms of the conflict. When they say, "This war is about ______," they're framing the conflict in terms that best suit them, and maybe you need to take time and think that one over. Why are they telling you this? How close is it to the reality? Do you want to accept that framework?

The most impulsive thing to do is to jump in with your fists swinging. But if the other side is intelligent, they most likely were expecting as much out of you.

Edit2: I also think that, in terms of how to respond to this situation, if moderate Muslims are taking a stand on extremism within their community, it's time Americans take a stand on extremists within our society as well. The more you keep quiet, the more the "loud ones" will speak for you.

 

[Mediocre]

Edit: Only I would get ninja'd by, like, four people. Lulz.

Good points are good points.

 

[SuperBowser]

Edit2: I also think that, in terms of how to respond to this situation, if moderate Muslims are taking a stand on extremism within their community, it's time Americans take a stand on extremists within our society as well. The more you keep quiet, the more the "loud ones" will speak for you.

I know everybody's said it, but I think this is the most important point when we look at the situation practically. Failing to build this mosque is giving in to bigots.

There may be a sub-group of people that are not bigots, whom were honestly offended or hurt due to their past experiences. However, this number is not that big. Once you start watching videos of crowds, reading their signs, listening to their objections and reading the various articles, it's clear the vast majority of the opposition we see are simply bigots. I don't think allowing society to cater to such people's views will ever lead down a good path. It may even send the message America is normalizing Islamophobia.

 

[Sucumbio]

First, I am actually a DH mod, PG to be precise. Second, I thought I was fairly clear in my points, but apparently not. EE/Mediocre/anyone else who got confused and outraged, I apologize for the confusion. Those are NOT my sentiments regarding the mosque being built. I personally feel that it's a bold decision that could have violent consequences. But what you apparently mistook as my feelings on the matter are what the protesters are feeling. Lets make that absolutely known and understood, okay? The bully analogy and the sand dweller tirade were both meant to summarize the NYC Protester's views (and as it turns out, Red State America) -not- mine.

I do however wish to address the point about not validating the bigotry. This would be an ideal solution. Whether you listen to the protesters or not, they're going to use their resources to punish Muslim-Americans in every way imaginable: stopping going to their places of business; ignoring them in public; bad mouthing them in private; not allowing their kids to make friends with theirs; so forth and so on. Compared to black america, this bigotry is in its infancy. NYC's bigots are going to have to decide -on their own- to forgive the world's Muslims for the decision of a literal handful of extremists. And what's worse, Red State America is right behind this bigoted march against the mosque. Outcries abound against Obama's endorsement of it. Fox News right there to cover it and snicker in the background. We need a good, strong counter-protest going against the protesters. "We ask that you put your freedom of religion aside this time." really though? ludicrous, right? the audacity! and yet, said with a straight face by these people. why? cause even after 9 years, these people still feel entitled to call the shots when it comes to Muslim-Americans and their presence in the US.

(maybe one of these protesters will read this and see just how ******** they sound).

it's not about rationalizing their stance. that's automatic when considering any issue between two or more groups. it's about figuring out a way to bring everyone back together. it's just painfully obvious that building this mosque is having the opposite effect,

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

If I were still a DH mod, I would be wondering how the heck you got in here, if that kind of bull****, racist argument is the best you can do.

Say, did you get purged because of something along the lines of this?

 

[thegreatkazoo]

Say, did you get purged because of something along the lines of this?

Homes, he used to be the brass of the DH/PG before you even knew about it, let alone your joining this site. He is about 400 country miles away from being purged.

Larn2research homes.

Odd that I was one of the people that got what Sucumbio was trying to say, but I do admit, you could have stated your points a bit more clearly.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

I meant purge of moderator stats.

 

[Mediocre]

First, I am actually a DH mod, PG to be precise. Second, I thought I was fairly clear in my points, but apparently not.

You can probably argue well on most issues, then, but here you have insisted on arguing with a broken chain of logic. Nothing you have presented has given any indication that the tactic of an oppressed group shrinking back into their shells has ever worked, yet you continue to present it as the optimal course of events. You do this in spite of the fact that you have been shown examples where doing the opposite is a successful tactic for ending the oppression. You have yet to present a counter-example.

Granted, I have only seen you argue this one topic, so perhaps on other issues you are able to present your case better. I don't know.

I was probably too fast to insult your debating skills. I apologize for that.

EE/Mediocre/anyone else who got confused and outraged, I apologize for the confusion. Those are NOT my sentiments regarding the mosque being built. I personally feel that it's a bold decision that could have violent consequences. But what you apparently mistook as my feelings on the matter are what the protesters are feeling. Lets make that absolutely known and understood, okay? The bully analogy and the sand dweller tirade were both meant to summarize the NYC Protester's views (and as it turns out, Red State America) -not- mine.

Your continued rationalization of those positions is something that bothers me. A common tactic of people who want to argue a certain view, but fear it will be unpopular, is to repeatedly say, "Well, I don't agree with them, but such and such person says such and such." I find it troubling that you continue to argue in that way.

With the bully paragraph, you did not even attribute it to the protesters. You presented it as if it was your own personal feelings. You have repeatedly confused normal Muslims with the Islamic extremists, without later making the distinction clear after you were done expressing your point. This repeated, unmarked conflation of of wildly different groups isn't something a person who is aware of the distinction should do.

I'm not saying that you are a racist, or even Islamophobic. However, the arguments which you present certainly are.

This would be an ideal solution. Whether you listen to the protesters or not, they're going to use their resources to punish Muslim-Americans in every way imaginable: stopping going to their places of business; ignoring them in public; bad mouthing them in private; not allowing their kids to make friends with theirs; so forth and so on. Compared to black america, this bigotry is in its infancy. NYC's bigots are going to have to decide -on their own- to forgive the world's Muslims for the decision of a literal handful of extremists. And what's worse, Red State America is right behind this bigoted march against the mosque. Outcries abound against Obama's endorsement of it. Fox News right there to cover it and snicker in the background. We need a good, strong counter-protest going against the protesters.

I actually agree with you here. However, a counter protest is not enough if you don't actually do anything. Protesting shows you have people on your side, but unless you take action you are still easy to ignore. That's why you had blacks doing sit-ins at white only restaurants. That's what this is, essentially. A larger scale sit-in. The protesters are trying to kick the Muslims out, and the Muslims, so far, are refusing to move. That is what needs to happen if anything is going to change.

As for the anti-Muslim movement being in it's infancy, that's true. And it's all the more reason to take strong, peaceful action now to oppose it. Confront the protesters and the bigots, rather than just avoiding the problem and allowing them to continue pushing.

it's not about rationalizing their stance. that's automatic when considering any issue between two or more groups. it's about figuring out a way to bring everyone back together. it's just painfully obvious that building this mosque is having the opposite effect,

Sometimes it's about more than bringing people back together. Sometimes it's about fundamental rights which are being denied to people.

Right now, all you keep saying is, "Don't rock the boat." You seem to think that doing this will somehow make the bigots more bigoted. That is not the case. The bigots are already bigots. Anyone who is scared of Muslims in general is already prejudiced. They have made up their mind that Muslims are dangerous.

It's true that the Muslims caving in on this issue would probably make them less scared, but it would not counter the underlying prejudice, and soon enough they would find something else to get scared about. What Muslims need to do is engage in a peaceful opposition, as they are doing, which both demonstrates that they will not be pushed around, and that there is nothing about them to be scared of.

That is the solution, and although it may cause some problems in the short term, it is the only long term solution.

Say, did you get purged because of something along the lines of this?

No.

I retired because of inactivity and a lack of interest in the Debate Hall.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Are you still disappointed?

 

[Reaver197]

This shouldn't even need to be debated. Legally, they have right to practice their religion, and are free to build wherever they see fit. There is no "should they though?". If they want to, they can. I'm saddened to see how out of proportion this is in the media, and how much it's distracting from actual, serious issues. However, it's some what revealing to see how Americans are reacting to it.

 

[KrazyGlue]

Are you still disappointed?

What are you trying to suggest?

This shouldn't even need to be debated. Legally, they have right to practice their religion, and are free to build wherever they see fit. There is no "should they though?". If they want to, they can. I'm saddened to see how out of proportion this is in the media, and how much it's distracting from actual, serious issues. However, it's some what revealing to see how Americans are reacting to it.

Nobody's debating whether they have the right to, and I don't see what's wrong with debating on whether it is a good idea to build one.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

What are you trying to suggest?

I was just wondering.

 

[Mediocre]

Are you still disappointed?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but it's not really relevant to the topic. If you want to ask me questions, feel free to PM me. I'm not trying to brush you off. It's just that this isn't the place.

Nobody's debating whether they have the right to, and I don't see what's wrong with debating on whether it is a good idea to build one.

Well, sure. That's true.

But it's not really our decision, and it bothers me that a lot of people called them "stupid", "idiots" or just not "smart". Really? Is it really stupid to continue to nonviolently oppose your oppressors through the continued exercise of the rights they would deny you?

Sure, it might get the Mosque burned down. Maybe you'll even get killed. But surely, for actions where you risk yourself for the benefit of others, "brave" is a better adjective than "stupid".