Greater Toronto Area Thread - The other other other other other other other other Pokemon Thread

[PiKaLeX]

I just lost to someone who tries to CC Marth f-smashes and gets away with it, do you know how bad that makes me?

Spamus CC is like too good...you can CC until you reach 100%... grab is the only true secure approach versus samus :S

 

[Europhoria]

Not at all, I'm just too bad to deal with the CC.

 

[PiKaLeX]

Not at all, I'm just too bad to deal with the CC.

well then, if you say this, then you know the next thing you can train on it ...anyway there is not a lot of caracter who can punish that hard with CC...

 

[idea]

I legitmately think Puff breaks even with every character or better (honestly I only think it's even vs. Fox and Falco and advantage vs. everyone else).

she loses to fox for sure, goes even with falco (maybe slight advantage jiggs), goes even with marth (ryan keeps saying marth has the advantage but i still say it's even), beats sheik, beats falcon, beats peach by less than those two. and everyone else she beats, yeah, but not by much. you could say the same about any of the high tiers; who does marth lose to besides sheik? or fox? falco debatably loses slightly to marth/sheik/jiggs/peach and absolutely destroys everyone else. all four of those are arguably even and sheik/marth/peach could be in falco's favour depending on who you ask. puff is not the only one who has tons of winning matchups.

and compared to the other very good characters, puff has few overwhelmingly good matchups. she has relatively even matchups even with some mid tiers. like i don't think she beats ganon, doc OR samus by more than 6-4, some of those might even be 50/50. the very most i'd be willing to accept is that jiggs samus is 65-35 for jiggs and that definitely sounds like a stretch to me. young link seems like slight advantage jiggs, too, but for that one there's too little data to say. whereas fox and falco and friends can run a train on mid tier and below, jiggs doesn't horribly **** anyone till like low tier. once you get to jiggs kirby, fair enough, that's unwinnable, but the unwinnable line is much higher for other high and top tiers.

if you're thinking about how she does against characters that actually matter, it's even worse, since so many people play fox and that's her only blatantly obvious losing matchup. like okay, great, she ***** falcon, who doesn't? she ***** sheik, fine, so all 5 of the sheik mains should maybe consider picking up fox. or just learning the matchup. i can't see even the best jigglypuffs more than 2-stocking david's sheik in tournament when he's in "I don't feel like getting hit" mode. more likely it would be a close 1-stock.

annoying, sure, but definitely not overpowered.

I'm mostly thinking of King on this. King's neutral game might have been a lil' overzealous at times but I don't think there was much mechanically wrong with a lot of his combos. I also think her Dair and edgecancel proficiency has a lot more potential than people realize, but I don't think these will really impact anything until people start thinking outside the [hungry] box.

yeah. especially dair. nair is more situational and it was better in like 2007 when no one crouch canceled.

edit:

I have no idea who you're talking about?

he means hbox, i think the use of "we" is confusing 'cause it sounds like he means a toronto player, but in this case "we" refers to the smash community as a whole.

quoting backward through time?!

 

[JPOBS]

Edit: Jpobs, we have a player that can't l-cancel/DI/play any kind of mix up game/gets 3 stocked by someone that would go like 0-8 in round 1 pools at Genesis on an alt --- but he places top 5 at nationals. At what point do we start to consider that Puff is ****ing overpowered?

I have no idea who you're talking about?

 

[Europhoria]

Marth - Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, Jiggs... all even or worse
Fox - Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs... all even or worse
Falco - Marth, Sheik, Peach, Jiggs... all even or worse
Sheik - Jiggs, Fox, Falco, ICs... all even or worse
This doesn't really include grey area match ups that people tend to see as even like ICs for Fox/Falco, Ganon for Marth, etc.

Jiggs - Fox, Falco... even at best. By the end of a 3 day tournament it's infinitely more likely and believable that a space animal is going to miss 4 l-cancels before a Puff makes the 20 mistakes or so she needs to commit in order to lose. I don't see why Fox beats Puff. Even by the end of a 1 day tournament >_>

Grey Are: If Puff doesn't **** Samus then Samus vs. Sheik/Marth is even as well. If you're losing to Doc, play it like Peach. Spam b-air from a safe distance where it cuts through the pill/his move and you can be unpunishable. See below for more on this **** about safe gameplay beating everyone except Fox/Falco.

Winning by too much: It doesn't matter if Marth beats Kirby harder then Puff, if that's how we made a tier list Sheik would be so far ahead of everyone it wouldn't be funny.

In any case I don't see how Jiggs defensive game doesn't super shut down and **** everyone mid tier and down any less hard then it does the top tiers. Spamming b-air from a safe distance still goes through almost every projectile that isn't a laser + their move at the same time. And these characters are still just as prone to being edge guarded and gimped while Puff still isn't. Did you see Shroomed vs. Hbox in that crew battle? When Hbox started doing that **** at like 100% on his last stock he took two stocks off before he got hit by anything significant once.

People just play more aggressively vs. the low tiers because they think they can get away with it. The reason why a lot of characters are low(er) on the tier list is because they have no way to get inside and nothing to do when they get inside anyways.

That's how I see Puff relative to like a tier list, being overpowered/match ups.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Winnings for 3rd was 27... 2nd was 160. lol. Bad mistake.

I gave davidi $50 afterwards (cuz pikalex said that he got $50 for 3rd place, but he was wrong).

- Ryan

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pikalex also gave me $50, to clarify. Maybe he gave me too much? I dunno.

 

[PiKaLeX]

Pikalex also gave me $50, to clarify. Maybe he gave me too much? I dunno.

ok phew....I tought I gave you 25....well 26 but who cares about the dollars

 

[JPOBS]

Marth - Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, Jiggs... all even or worse
Fox - Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs... all even or worse
Falco - Marth, Sheik, Peach, Jiggs... all even or worse
Sheik - Jiggs, Fox, Falco, ICs... all even or worse
This doesn't really include grey area match ups that people tend to see as even like ICs for Fox/Falco, Ganon for Marth, etc.

Jiggs - Fox, Falco... even at best.

imo you're underrating some of pufs other matchup's or overrating how good her "just bair at a safe distance" strategy works. Sure, they can do that and not get hit (maybe), but they also won't be hitting anyone.

I would also throw in ICs, Marth, Ganon, Pikachu, Peach, and Doc into the list with fox and falco for tough matchups for puff. even if she has the slightest advantage here or there, its not like she completely dominates any of these characters. and fox def beats her.

 

[Kason Birdman]

I don't think puff is overpowered... falco is better.

don't get me wrong puff is still mad good, but I would even put sheik above her some days.

 

[Ministry]

I already know kurtis is a better player then me, he has way more controll over his character then i do, and makes me look really stupid lol.

watching the videos, i deserved to lose so bad. im so bad and got really lucky...

need to work on my spacing and controll and doing what i need to in situations (mainly my on stage game..)

good matches on your part kurtis, sucks ur controller screwed up- if it makes u feel any better watch the match and watch every one of my upairs, they should of been fairs.

 

[Divinokage]

I gave davidi $50 afterwards (cuz pikalex said that he got $50 for 3rd place, but he was wrong).

- Ryan

Awww.. that's nice. =P

 

[Sleaf]

so Breaking Bad worth watching?

 

[Europhoria]

I could see ICs honestly until I remember Puff can just Rest Nana for virtually nothing (like 18% damage at most?) and then fight a low tier.

I could give you a run down of how I see Marth vs. Puff if you want, I think it's like 60/40 for Puff. so it's pretty possible but it's just kinda dumb. (It boils down to stupid hit trading and the problem of the edge game)

Other chars I kinda think you're under estimating how good safe b-air spam on shield is. Watch like Shroomed's last 2 stocks/Armada vs. Hbox from Apex.

As for Fox, a lot of people say Puff wins but I don't see it honestly. I think like being http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYW9Jzr_9aM super defensive is how I kind of see the match up. I have a hard time seeing how a Puff gets grabbed (only way she really gets killed) if she plays to avoid it. You can laser to get her to approach, but she can do this safe approach nonsense and you end up trapped. To counter this, you can n-air her approach/beat it with another move (approach her back) and win those trades with priority but if she just like wavedashes backwards instead of approaching once you're out a stock.
It's a gamble; like 10-30% vs. a stock loss for Fox. That's like, at minimum 12 correct reads in a game vs. 4-6 to win? After a lot of the grabs Puff can just back throw then Fox is kind of trapped at the edge and dead. This assumes Puff never hits the u-air DI and that every read gets you a grab/up-smash to kill instead of just random single hits. Hard for me to see that as even. I think Fox can win, but I think Puff has the advantage anyways.

Again >_> this is how I see it from watching some higher level matches. It's harder to judge match ups, because I'm trying to assume equal skill. As a result I'm extrapolating a lot on the matches (considering what if Hungrybox had DI skill equivalent to his opponent and up-throw u-air was garbage on him... IE like 50% dodge rate that Axe/Vwins seem to have) I remember talking about this all with Andrew back in May I'm just trying to get it all written down here lol.

 

[Summonedfist]

lol i love how active this thread is it's so awesome

and i can sorta support kurtis' frustration with his controller lmao i remember fox ditto'ing him and i'd hear him input dash away -> dash back -> grab (he had a clicky z i think so i could hear it really well) and his fox clearly stands still on screen LMAO

his controller is amazingggg tier quality gaiz you don't even know

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox beats Puff.

U-throw Rest is a combination of 2 mistakes, not one, and should be treated as such. You can preemptively DI for the throw and it works. I very rarely get U-throw Rested and I feel like barfing inside my mouth every time it happens because of how nooby it is.

I don't really like the argument that "It's a fast throw" right now because it seems to me that Puff's opportunities to grab are extremely telegraphed and you lose nothing for holding a direction vs her during risky scenarios because of how linear her combos are (also, Fox is crazy flexible with follow actions but don't let the Foxes know that). Whereas Fox, Falcon, and Marth can pluck you right out of a dash dance almost whenever they feel like it because they're freakin' fast and have good ground-speed to grab ratios, Puff does not have this. She's probably grabbing you out of a whiff of some kind or obvious lag, which you can foresee or prepare for in advanced without impeding your following action. When she WDs back, it's not rocket science what she's going for. And even if she's going for something else, jamming your thumb in an arbitrary "side" direction (even behind her) won't kill you; this isn't Sheik, people.

Fox has his lasers, incredible mobility advantage, faster moves, and low percent kill potential to fall back on vs Puff. That he can actually move around her on most stages without running severe risk of being poked during his repositioning (like he would vs Falco, Sheik, etc.) is amazing. Her mobility is also subpar which allows him to adjust his circle movement to only really risk being hit by certain stuff; for a decent percent range, she only has single hits to work with, and proper DI by the Fox exaggerates this weakness of hers.

It's very similar to his movement game vs Peach, only Puff's pressure is significantly clunkier and doesn't produce nearly as much frame advantage, or have the same potential to inescapably shield pierce. So stray hits by Puff are less likely to kill unless they're like an Uair or Pound or whatever. And hitting his shield allows him a free WD back or jump > waveland, depending on where he's positioned on stage in relation to Puff.

You can stick stuff about low percent KOs and how he actually has semi-safe high percent KO options and blah blah blah around here. And how good being under her is. And situational Shine knockdowns and how her tech rolls and general wakeup options are bad. Stuff like that.

And despite all this, it's not a huge advantage overall. Mostly because Puff has a few good ways of keeping Fox cornered once she gets control but I still find she's a character that generally works off of single hits. If this changes I am totally open the notion that Puff is even with Fox, or even beats him. I think she's got tons of unexplored punishment potential; step it up Jigglies.

I am also willing to concede that it's a matchup that gets significantly easier the longer a tournament goes on as a result of player limitations, but I don't really like thinking about things like that because I could very easily make an argument that Sheik sucks in the later stages of a tournament because so much she does is based off of reaction (which can get sucky around 4 am, in the same way that Fox's index finger might be sucky around 4 am). In fact, I can basically do that with pretty much every character. That's why I don't like this line of thinking. It just seems conducive to johns and unproductive on the whole.






Jigglypuff absolutely ***** Samus. I don't care for numbers because they convey extremely little but it's a very solid, very good matchup for our favourite Pokemon. Literally do more Bairs. And edgeguard in a more systematic way to cover more options more efficiently. Like, actually. Shield > jump periodically (to bait grabs and anything else unsafe), and shield > Rest on just about every single move she touches your shield with (except perfect spaced F-tilt, U-tilt, and some others; toy around until you figure it out). Samus cannot do things about these strategies except try to grossly outplay you by spacing absolutely pixel perfectly all the time, which isn't a real strategy.

It's like fighting Peach, only shielding is amazing, and she can't down smash your crouch for 60 damage. Crouch is still mediocre vs Samus, though.

 

[Europhoria]

I concede that Fox runs circles around Puff but I also agree that if Puff hits Fox he kinda gets trapped. While this isn't so evident on like Stadium on any of the small 3 platform stages this is pretty noticeable and tends to occur frequently.

I'm suppose I could also change u-throw rest to being 2 mistakes, but then I'd kind of have to look at u-throw u-air as 2 mistakes too which doesn't change my ratio. But it does give Fox more time to use his speed to get Puff to make mistakes. It also forces Puff to do more then like u-throw to b-air. I guess this comes back to that stuff you mentioned about King and Puffs not really having a combo game.

I still think it's even on that note because I'm working in hypothetical scenarios I guess?

 

[JPOBS]

Other chars I kinda think you're under estimating how good safe b-air spam on shield is. Watch like Shroomed's last 2 stocks/Armada vs. Hbox from Apex.

I just want to address this. Safe bair spam on shield has its run arounds. If its a bair to rising bair (to catch a jump), then you can just hold your shield and atack OOS. If its a low bair and then drift away, you can actually WD oos forward and punish with a fast move as most characters, including some smashes depending on whatever char you're using. or just gtfo. Safe moves on shield isn;t anything specific to puff. I mean hell, even falcon has a block safe string.

Watch mango vs hbox. He works almost entirely out of shield. Approach with shield -> punish whatever hbox does.

As for Fox, a lot of people say Puff wins but I don't see it honestly. I think like being http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYW9Jzr_9aM super defensive is how I kind of see the match up. I have a hard time seeing how a Puff gets grabbed (only way she really gets killed) if she plays to avoid it. You can laser to get her to approach, but she can do this safe approach nonsense and you end up trapped. To counter this, you can n-air her approach/beat it with another move (approach her back) and win those trades with priority but if she just like wavedashes backwards instead of approaching once you're out a stock.
It's a gamble; like 10-30% vs. a stock loss for Fox. That's like, at minimum 12 correct reads in a game vs. 4-6 to win? After a lot of the grabs Puff can just back throw then Fox is kind of trapped at the edge and dead. This assumes Puff never hits the u-air DI and that every read gets you a grab/up-smash to kill instead of just random single hits. Hard for me to see that as even. I think Fox can win, but I think Puff has the advantage anyways.

I disagree with your assesment of how the approaching tradeoff game works. For starters, there is no situation where puff can both threaten with bair AND threaten with wavedash back->grab. She has to be facing backwards to bair you, and facing forward to grab, furthermore, she has to be in the air to bair, and on the ground to grab. So what I'm saying is, there is no "guessing" or "mixup" here. If puff is bairing and stuff, fox can weave in and out and beat her with bairs and nairs and priority. Likewise, if she's grounded and you approach and jump into her wd back->grab, when then (like KK said) you made 2 mistakes (missing DI being the second). But what im saying is, she can't do both. She can't "wavedash back grab instead of approaching" because the two situations require different criteria.

Also, you're right in assuming puff can sdi upairs, but fox's can DI her upthrow even easier. and DI'ing the upthrow doesn't save puff from upthrow upair combos...

and a vid of amsah playing fox isn't any kind of proof of anything >_>

Again >_> this is how I see it from watching some higher level matches. It's harder to judge match ups, because I'm trying to assume equal skill. As a result I'm extrapolating a lot on the matches (considering what if Hungrybox had DI skill equivalent to his opponent and up-throw u-air was garbage on him... IE like 50% dodge rate that Axe/Vwins seem to have) I remember talking about this all with Andrew back in May I'm just trying to get it all written down here lol.

Oh you were talking about hbox with your last post, i get it now

and axe being good at sdi (i think) has more to do with pikachu. I mean seriously, pikachu makes it really easy to sdi for some reason

 

[KirbyKaze]

I actually think it's more evident on the 3-platform levels, but I also kind of consider YS and FoD (situationally for FoD) a bit bigger than advertised because of exactly where the platforms are positioned. And BF is anything but small. But I'm weird and to discuss the former gets into all sorts of stage theory that I'd rather not discuss at the moment 'cuz I'm not really solid in some of these ideas.

I'll concede that U-throw in general is two mistakes for Puff, but I think Fox can beat her without relying on it heavily. To avoid grab she has to either play an extremely retreat-heavy ground game, or be constantly airborne, and I think Fox handles both of those fine.

If Puffs find the moonstone, though, we're probably screwed. And not even McCloud can save us.

 

[idea]

Marth - Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, Jiggs... all even or worse
Fox - Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs... all even or worse
Falco - Marth, Sheik, Peach, Jiggs... all even or worse
Sheik - Jiggs, Fox, Falco, ICs... all even or worse
This doesn't really include grey area match ups that people tend to see as even like ICs for Fox/Falco, Ganon for Marth, etc.

Jiggs - Fox, Falco... even at best. By the end of a 3 day tournament it's infinitely more likely and believable that a space animal is going to miss 4 l-cancels before a Puff makes the 20 mistakes or so she needs to commit in order to lose. I don't see why Fox beats Puff. Even by the end of a 1 day tournament >_>

Grey Are: If Puff doesn't **** Samus then Samus vs. Sheik/Marth is even as well. If you're losing to Doc, play it like Peach. Spam b-air from a safe distance where it cuts through the pill/his move and you can be unpunishable. See below for more on this **** about safe gameplay beating everyone except Fox/Falco.

Winning by too much: It doesn't matter if Marth beats Kirby harder then Puff, if that's how we made a tier list Sheik would be so far ahead of everyone it wouldn't be funny.

In any case I don't see how Jiggs defensive game doesn't super shut down and **** everyone mid tier and down any less hard then it does the top tiers. Spamming b-air from a safe distance still goes through almost every projectile that isn't a laser + their move at the same time. And these characters are still just as prone to being edge guarded and gimped while Puff still isn't. Did you see Shroomed vs. Hbox in that crew battle? When Hbox started doing that **** at like 100% on his last stock he took two stocks off before he got hit by anything significant once.

People just play more aggressively vs. the low tiers because they think they can get away with it. The reason why a lot of characters are low(er) on the tier list is because they have no way to get inside and nothing to do when they get inside anyways.

That's how I see Puff relative to like a tier list, being overpowered/match ups.

imo you're underrating some of pufs other matchup's or overrating how good her "just bair at a safe distance" strategy works. Sure, they can do that and not get hit (maybe), but they also won't be hitting anyone.

I would also throw in ICs, Marth, Ganon, Pikachu, Peach, and Doc into the list with fox and falco for tough matchups for puff. even if she has the slightest advantage here or there, its not like she completely dominates any of these characters. and fox def beats her.

i want to have a long, involved discussion about this, mike, but right now it just seems boring =/ ask me in person, okay? i do have stuff to say in response.

basically i agree with tristan, jiggs's defensive game is amazing but you're still overrating it. take jiggs marth for instance...marth has trouble hitting bair spammy jiggs, but it's just as hard for jiggs to get through marth's fair. and those don't trade very much; marth's fair will come from above and beat it with good enough spacing. how do you beat marth's fairs? either you don't get anywhere near them (wavedash around in shield, etc.), or you fair him first. fairing carefully vs. marth is a good tool to get past his wall of sword, and once you do that you can pressure him and...do things that aren't bair. but when jiggs is not using bair, marth can start to use his OOS movement game to do stuff. if you went with the wavedash around in shield option, you now have to avoid grab, which legitimately combos to fsmash and at the right percentages wavedash tipper fsmash. eventually you can DI out of it, at which point jiggs becomes hard to kill, but then it's pretty similar marth vs. other non spacies; still no edgeguarding, but jiggs dies from continued safe spacing faster than anyone else. that matchup is a lot of back and forth countering.

as for fox...if you really could beat arguably the best character by waiting for him to miss 4 l-cancels, i think a lot more people would main jiggs. unfortunately lasers and dash dance grabs don't require you to l-cancel. also if you are missing l-cancels on the front of someone's shield you are going to get ***** by any good character upthrow will often send you to a platform even if you miss the DI...and usually when i rest someone on a platform it's like 50% prediction. it's hard to react to every option there, especially with the inherent hesitation in using rest, the ultimate commitment.

i agree with pretty much all of what david said...which boils down to: puff can't catch fox and fox doesn't have to approach.

for samus, it's quite possible i'm just not camping hard enough, but it doesn't feel THAT bad to me.

 

[Summonedfist]

after reading these posts i feel like i've forgotten how to smash

edit: just saw some of the earlier matches.... just saw kurtis cp'ing james with sheik LOOOOL omg lol'd irl... good boy kurtis

 

[KirbyKaze]

for samus, it's quite possible i'm just not camping hard enough, but it doesn't feel THAT bad to me.

I'm going to refrain from using words like 'camping' because they're riddled with personal definitions and grey areas. At any rate, I doubt it's defensive play that's your main issue versus her anyway.

If I were to hazard a guess, it would be that you're not used to fighting Samus (nobody in our region uses Samus well enough that you have to play super seriously to beat them and are forced to adapt and learn), and you're not familiar with all the things you can Rest OOS on (which is a lot, although some of them take some precision and preemptive thinking, which you won't have on the account of lack of experience).

You also probably don't understand the spacing game against her as well as you do vs other characters (what moves have what priority, their durations, tricky business like that, etc), and you probably don't have as much of a formulaic approach to covering her recovery options. They're admittedly numerous, but they're also usually covered pretty easily because most of them are variations of the same 3 or 4 basic things.




I actually suffer from a lot of these issues (or similar) vs her too. Fortunately, I'm Sheik, so it can be covered up with simple shield camping, WD OOS abuse, spaced aerials, needle play, and the almighty 2-step.




My big secret is that I'm actually secretly horrible against a lot of the weird or underused characters. I really don't know what to do against them. Young Link very well could be my worst matchup with Sheik by a whole lot. Followed by Ice Climbers, Falcon, Pikachu, Zelda, and Mewtwo in some order.

 

[Ministry]

Oh and david forget to mention because you are bad!!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can be bad but still be good vs Samus.

NeighborhoodP, anyone?

 

[RaynEX]

This last page was such a good read. I'm particularly impressed by the Fox/Jiggs match-up breakdown. Kinda makes me want to stop lurking like some old, decrepit, retired player and start posting regularly. I want to see you all as soon as possible.

Oh, and if anyone is interested in buying affordable used (refurbished) / brand new controllers...let me know. My affiliation with Omega Collectables will hopefully get us through this controller drought.


This is what I've been doing in the meantime: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prgxTfjYfkI

 

[Rikana]

Who's this nublet rain axe?

I'd like a new gc controller. How much is it and do we get to test it out before we purchase it?

 

[Ministry]

Bernard how and when did you get sponsored?. that's amazing. what does the company do?

good ****, watched ur video, really good. you need to make it out to smash events more.

 

[Divinokage]

I don't see how someone would sponsor someone that's LOSING!! lol.

 

[unknown522]

This last page was such a good read. I'm particularly impressed by the Fox/Jiggs match-up breakdown. Kinda makes me want to stop lurking like some old, decrepit, retired player and start posting regularly. I want to see you all as soon as possible.

Oh, and if anyone is interested in buying affordable used (refurbished) / brand new controllers...let me know. My affiliation with Omega Collectables will hopefully get us through this controller drought.


This is what I've been doing in the meantime: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prgxTfjYfkI

is that neo Russel doing the commentary? <_<

 

[Rikana]

Bored out of my mind right now.



Anyone watch white collar? I've been picking up on that series lately.

 

[Sleaf]

nahhh Breaking Bad for me

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I consider like half the characters in the game broken.

Then again I main Young Link, lol.

 

[Rikana]

Be a man and play mewtwo.

 

[idea]

Oh, and if anyone is interested in buying affordable used (refurbished) / brand new controllers...let me know. My affiliation with Omega Collectables will hopefully get us through this controller drought.

This is what I've been doing in the meantime: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prgxTfjYfkI

i already pm'd you about this, but...me me me.

also when you grabbed him three times in a row, i was SO sure you were going to go for it that third time

At any rate, I doubt it's defensive play that's your main issue versus her anyway.

no, this i definitely disagree with, i'm still not capable of playing as defensively as my character should. and undoubtedly you have to play defensively against samus. i have to be concentrating SO hard to do that, and shutting out everything else, including how annoying i'm playing, which goes against all my other instincts. and i don’t mean super ‘camping’ someone, i mean, playing in such a way that i react to their movements and create a wall of spacing.

i've never had that drive to just win matches, my goal from the start has always been self-improvement and i'm not convinced i want to improve in that direction. this is why i'll never play any other games competitively--i don't REALLY play smash competitively either, in the sense that it's not a competition for me in the same way as a lot of people. my main goal has never been to beat the other person. at most it's just been not to lose to someone when i think i'm better than them.

i'm kind of surprised i still haven't worked this out after almost 4 years, but the way i want to play to beat people and the way to play my character to actually beat people are completely opposite.

i guess i should also clarify that, for me, playing intelligently and playing defensively are the same thing. i don't think those are equivalent concepts; rather it's that the mindset for the latter allows me to do the former. and that's where the conflict is, i usually don't play smart because i usually don't play defensively. i'm too focused on chasing the person down and, i don’t know, playing “legit”? this isn’t what i think about in the middle of a match, but it’s always somewhere in the back of my mind. the instinct to approach even when it’s a bad choice is just so strong.

i think i'm better at edgeguarding in that mindset, too, because that's like...reaction mode. and if i'm reacting to things, rather than trying to initiate them, then i am better-equipped to counter someone's recovery. usually i try to predict where they're going to recover. this is why i'm pretty good at edgeguarding with like, fsmash, which doesn't work unless you make a read.

but uh...what do i do ;_;

eh, and while we're at it: http://fr-ca.twitch.tv/styc/b/293111166

17:30 is me vs. camilo. someone wanna tell me what i'm doing wrong? besides jumping into everything and missing every edgeguard?

(also i wrote a few more paragraphs about playing falco and fox, but i took them out for now ‘cause they dilute my main point)

If I were to hazard a guess, it would be that you're not used to fighting Samus (nobody in our region uses Samus well enough that you have to play super seriously to beat them and are forced to adapt and learn), and you're not familiar with all the things you can Rest OOS on (which is a lot, although some of them take some precision and preemptive thinking, which you won't have on the account of lack of experience).

You also probably don't understand the spacing game against her as well as you do vs other characters (what moves have what priority, their durations, tricky business like that, etc), and you probably don't have as much of a formulaic approach to covering her 2recovery options. They're admittedly numerous, but they're also usually covered pretty easily because most of them are variations of the same 3 or 4 basic things.

back to samus...this i agree with. i've always been worst at the OOS rests for some reason, and i always get hit by samus' uptilt

and i don't have a formulaic approach to anything except resting people on platforms.

 

[Rikana]

^

Its clearly not you. It says Camilo vs. Ministry.

 

[Bing]

Couple of things. One, this has been a great read, very educational. 2. Raynex, you're pretty good at this game After the first match, I was expecting a bad set, then you won the next two.
UMM UMMM.
Marth vs. Samus is a great match up. It was the first set I ever won. :D
Ryan, that was very kind and gentlemenly thing to do, giving David 50$
David, you commentary is ****, OtherGuy needs to STFU

 

[Rikana]

LOL bing i was just watching that too. That guy kept interupting david. Lmaoooo.

GET INTERUPTED DAVID.

He was pretty annoying.

 

[Bing]

yeah, I was like, his commentary was ****, David's was atleast insightful and like, helpful? while still entertaining

 

[KirbyKaze]

My commentary was alright but I'm open to suggestions on how to improve it.

I know I ramble and stutter.







edit:

I think Puff's best style vs Samus is one that involves being in her face a lot. But I'm pretty much done with this conversation 'cuz I'm out of points and stuff

Go **** space *****es