Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

[JTB]

Playing udyr is moreso knowing how to jungle since his mechanics are pretty straightforward.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Gold loss on death would be idiotic, this game already has a number of issues with snowballing too hard. That would make it considerably worse.

 

[fkacyan]

Gold loss on death would be idiotic, this game already has a number of issues with snowballing too hard. That would make it considerably worse.

Worse?

Don't you mean better?

It's moronic that you can suck - SUCK - at laning and just shrug it off by playing Farmville.

 

[Limeee]

What is the finalized opinion on runes for AD carries? I saw a blog post on reign of elementz talking about how armor pen is surperior to flat ad if the other ad carry brings flat armour (which happens 99% of the time) and that flat ad hardly gives you a bonus early. But then earlier in this thread i read that armor pen gives you more early damage, so now im just really confused :/

 

[Frolossus]

What is the finalized opinion on runes for AD carries? I saw a blog post on reign of elementz talking about how armor pen is surperior to flat ad if the other ad carry brings flat armour (which happens 99% of the time) and that flat ad hardly gives you a bonus early. But then earlier in this thread i read that armor pen gives you more early damage, so now im just really confused :/

Arpen is usually better but people get flat AD to last hit better or for spells that scale off of AD

 

[DMG]

It depends on the carry first of all. Corki benefits more from Flat AD hands down, same with Graves. Vayne probably does but you could make the case for armor pen to work with her ult bonus damage. Ashe it probably doesn't matter.

 

[fkacyan]

It depends on the carry first of all. Corki benefits more from Flat AD hands down, same with Graves. Vayne probably does but you could make the case for armor pen to work with her ult bonus damage. Ashe it probably doesn't matter.

AD to take advantage of

Spoiler

maxing hawkshot first

 

[Wave⁂]

Worse?

Don't you mean better?

It's moronic that you can suck - SUCK - at laning and just shrug it off by playing Farmville.

Snowballing better, as in there would be less of it? Or more of it?

I think the biggest issue is that it'd be near-impossible to come back from a disadvantage unless the team or champion that is ahead throws the game, in which case they'd likely come back anyway.

 

[Mogwai]

stream up: http://www.justin.tv/smashgizmo

 

[PhantomX]

Mogwai stream too mainstream for me now [/hipster].

 

[DanGR]

What is the finalized opinion on runes for AD carries? I saw a blog post on reign of elementz talking about how armor pen is surperior to flat ad if the other ad carry brings flat armour (which happens 99% of the time) and that flat ad hardly gives you a bonus early. But then earlier in this thread i read that armor pen gives you more early damage, so now im just really confused :/

Seems like most people are running wriggles now, which flat AD is better against than flat armor pen. If not for more varied last hit timings, and for better ad ability scaling, I'd get flat AD for that reason.


edit: ACTUALLY, I don't really remember if flat ad is better than the armor pen against +30 armor for early game, mathematically, but it makes sense that they'd balance it that way.

edit2: too tired. hope that made sense

 

[jiovanni007]

udyr walkthrough gogogogo
(just bought udyr) have 1 ip remaining.

Press E to move fast and stun ****, press q to kill ****, press w to survive ****, press r to clear jungle stupid fast, press a lot of buttons to get more attack speed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Worse?

Don't you mean better?

It's moronic that you can suck - SUCK - at laning and just shrug it off by playing Farmville.

I'm gonna disagree, two presuppositions that this will rest on.

1. Balancing decisions should be based on high-leveled play primarily if not entirely

From the MK debates I believe you agree with me on this.


2. Division by skill should favor consistent superiority

Would smash be better if it used one game, single stock, sudden death? Would it even be better if games were one stock? No, not at all, because even the top players make mistakes, what separates top players from low level players is that they much fewer of them and are able to capitalize better on their opponents mistakes.

So, if by random chance, a weaker player catches an early mistake from a strong player, should they have pretty much won then and there?

Yes, aggregated in this situation the stronger player SHOULD win the majority of games, but the reason why you wanna avoid giving singular mistakes too much weight in a competitive game is you don't wanna create a situation where a single early mistake ends the game unless the game is quick enough that you can run many sets.

League... is not a quick game, neither is smash realistically. This is why blue shell mechanics exist, to make mistakes not overly punishing so that a single early mistake will not destroy a generally stronger player, merely disadvantage the player.



Now then, the issue I'm pointing to is that high leveled play has significant issues with snowballing off of even minior mistakes. This is especially true of top because of how isolated it is in general.

This is because you get power off of kills and farm, which in turn increases your ability to prevent your opponent from getting farm, therefore increasing the power gap. The earlier your mistake, the more farm and possibility of kills you lose out on.

Furthermore this hurts you in a number of other ways like securing objectives, further turning the screws.


This generally isn't as much an issue at lower levels of play because people just say... leave vayne to freefarm bot in midgame, but at higher levels of play people become increasingly compitent at securing farm and a major snowballing issue emerges.

This is made even worse by things like early crits, which can create lane advantage off RNG.

Granted, dedicated endgame teams can still win against snowballing, but only if too much of a gap isn't created.




So yea, no. People being able to play farmville to catch up is generally a failure on your team, this game already has too much of an issue where early mistakes are more highly valued then consistency.


I will note that this dynamic is present in lower level games from a laning sense, but it's only messed up by the fact that all too often people do truly stupid things.

 

[Z'zgashi]

This is why blue shell mechanics exist

As a competitive Mario Kart player (lol yes, people do in fact play that game competitively), I can tell you right now that that isnt a Blue Shell mechanic. While I do agree with what you said as a whole, comparing it to Blue Shells is NOT a good comparison. The points of a Blue Shell are to either **** up the player who is currently doing the best or to hold it to have control/dominance, it does NOT correct mistakes. In Mario Kart, there are 11 other people in the race with you at the same time, and if you screw up, that sucks, and a Blue isnt going to help you in any way. Of those 11 other people, you're realistically only going to be hurting 1 of them (and thats implying that 1st place doesnt dodge it which isnt too hard to do), not to mention the 1 that is most likely the furthest away from you, and the other 10 racers are all unaffected. Really, getting a Blue Shell usually sucks because you could get other items instead, most of which would all actually help YOU out other than messing with someone probably nowhere near you.

A comparison for your idea would be Mushrooms, they allow you to cut parts of the track or just move faster in order to get back into the game.

So yeah, I just thought Id point that out. Sorry for that random rant lol.

 

[adumbrodeus]

As a competitive Mario Kart player (lol yes, people do in fact play that game competitively), I can tell you right now that that isnt a Blue Shell mechanic. While I do agree with what you said as a whole, comparing it to Blue Shells is NOT a good comparison. The points of a Blue Shell are to either **** up the player who is currently doing the best or to hold it to have control/dominance, it does NOT correct mistakes. In Mario Kart, there are 11 other people in the race with you at the same time, and if you screw up, that sucks, and a Blue isnt going to help you in any way. Of those 11 other people, you're realistically only going to be hurting 1 of them (and thats implying that 1st place doesnt dodge it which isnt too hard to do), not to mention the 1 that is most likely the furthest away from you, and the other 10 racers are all unaffected. Really, getting a Blue Shell usually sucks because you could get other items instead, most of which would all actually help YOU out other than messing with someone probably nowhere near you.

A comparison for your idea would be Mushrooms, they allow you to cut parts of the track or just move faster in order to get back into the game.

So yeah, I just thought Id point that out. Sorry for that random rant lol.

Was talking about it both in the sense of mechanics that punished the winner and those that helped the loser because the specific game we're talking about is 2 teams.

But noted.

 

[Deleted member]

Is it ever worth getting TWO boots if it makes you tankier than any other option?

For example, grabbing ninja tabi for the 10% auto attack reduction way late in the game

 

[DMG]

Does that 10% work before or after armor?

If it's after armor, you're better off with a different item.

 

[Strong Badam]

Trolled a late game by having like 5 different kinds of boots once.

 

[Deleted member]

Does that 10% work before or after armor?

If it's after armor, you're better off with a different item.

i have no clue and i have no brain so i want some nerd in this topic to calculate for me

 

[Cherished Doll]

Trolled a late game by having like 5 different kinds of boots once.

lets play (:

and i dont think it works at all if you get two boots

 

[Shaya]

I would say 20% reduced AS from frozen heart would be better than ninja tabi, ditto to randuins although less reliable. I don't think there'd be any champ which would get hurt more by another ninja tabi... maybe nasus? a lich bane user? maybe.

 

[ArcNatural]

If anyone is up for talking league on aim hit me up, so bored at work lately. Also if anyone is looking to start a mediocre team for league for 5s and etc. and need a bot lane player let me know. I think I've posted this various teams but I would really like to start playing premades with the purpose of getting better with players willing to talk and get better over soloq shenanigans.

 

[DallasPhat]

i have no clue and i have no brain so i want some nerd in this topic to calculate for me

I would like this post if I could.

 

[DMG]

Mostly because he'll still go in regardless

I like following him to glory

 

[UTDZac]

I don't know why I laughed so hard at this:

[yt]ghgHn8hL1wQ[/yt]

 

[Vyke]

 

[Bartolon]

Mundo jungle so fun

 

[fkacyan]

Yes, aggregated in this situation the stronger player SHOULD win the majority of games, but the reason why you wanna avoid giving singular mistakes too much weight in a competitive game is you don't wanna create a situation where a single early mistake ends the game unless the game is quick enough that you can run many sets.

Which is why you make items cost more gold. If one or two kills does not get you an item, then the weight of the mistakes is much lower. Consequently the lane comes down more to who is better at their champ / the MU rather than who simply has more items. If Shyvana scores an early kill and comes back to lane with you at dorans + pots and her with a wriggles, you're more or less already done in that lane. Increasing the cost of items and putting a gold loss on death would increase snowballing for consistent strong lane play, and reduce it for morons that simply pick characters that scale better and killtrade all day.

You don't see a Weaver getting Radiance from two kills.

@NinjaTabi:

Assuming you have 100 armor including Tabi against a 300 AD Carry w/ 0% crit:

After Armor: 300*50% = 150, 150*90% = 135 damage
Before Armor: 300*90% = 270, 270*50% = 135 damage

THE SECRET OF MULTIPLICATION: IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT ORDER IT HAPPENS IN.

Unless the benefits stack by multiplying by eachother, in which case I'm not mathing it out at work

As far as actually calculating its worth compared to other items in its place, I'm almost positive that against opponents who only AA you that it's strictly better for durability given that you have so much armor that you cannot gain 10% reduction from another item instead.

The benefit is that this bonus ignores ArPen, though... But using it in place of an actual armor item seems pretty edge case.

 

[Frolossus]

wouldn't increasing the cost of items increase game length?

 

[Sinz]

wouldn't increasing the cost of items increase game length?

Yes and no. It would encourage better ganking and push strategies. However, the general get a carry farmed strategy would be a longer game.

 

[fkacyan]

wouldn't increasing the cost of items increase game length?

Not by much. Laning might last a bit longer but it would increase the strength of roamers / gankers and post laning the game would generally end faster because one strong teamfight for a team would give a very large gold advantage to the team that won the fight.

 

[Deleted member]

question #2 for you nerdz

if you get mobility boots first, then get ninja tabi later, do you keep the 5 movement speed boost from mobility and get the 10% damage reduction?

 

[fkacyan]

question #2 for you nerdz

if you get mobility boots first, then get ninja tabi later, do you keep the 5 movement speed boost from mobility and get the 10% damage reduction?

The Unique Passives on both should function, it's just that the flat movement bonuses do not stack.

Spoiler

I totally have done boot stacking games on smurfs.

 

[Arcansi]

Which is why you make items cost more gold. If one or two kills does not get you an item, then the weight of the mistakes is much lower. Consequently the lane comes down more to who is better at their champ / the MU rather than who simply has more items. If Shyvana scores an early kill and comes back to lane with you at dorans + pots and her with a wriggles, you're more or less already done in that lane.

If one or two kills does not get you an item, then farming matters more. Unless you mean teh gold cost goes up SO much the game inevitably lasts longer, which will never happen.

Did you know Riot originally wanted one game of SR to last 30 mins on average, with 40-45 being a long game?

Increasing the cost of items and putting a gold loss on death would increase snowballing for consistent strong lane play, and reduce it for morons that simply pick characters that scale better and killtrade all day.

You act like killtrading with a character who scales well (and is therefore bad in the earlier non-scaled gameplay stages) is easy to do, espicially at high levels of play.

 

[fkacyan]

If one or two kills does not get you an item, then farming matters more.

Which means ganking matters more, which encourages roamers.

 

[Kira-]

johnny only one repping unique thought process lol

dont matter how ******** it is, if you find one good thing its worth it

btw at what point would 10% auto attack reduction be more useful than like.. a chain vest for example

btw i always thought flad ad >> arpen

ganking matters more in solo q only. cuz negative nancys will destroy the other team not bc of the gank itself. 1 gank is next to meaningless in the scope of the whole game

 

[Strong Badam]

flat ad is usually better for CSing and stuff but armor pen is usually better on an AD carry late game. depends on team comp/which AD carry you're using.

 

[DanGR]

This is why blue shell mechanics exist, to make mistakes not overly punishing so that a single early mistake will not destroy a generally stronger player, merely disadvantage the player.

I really doubt any intelligent, experienced, competitive game designer would ever agree with you on this point. The mechanics are there for 'fun.' That's how every mechanic that doesn't focus on player skill comes about.

For example, the design team felt League needed a draw for new players to play it in early, early beta. RNG and arbitary comeback mechanics appeal to casuals. Then when they get people hooked and it becomes popular, they begin appealing to the esport community by phasing out the anti-competitive, lazy bull**** they introduced earlier in favor of promoting consistent play instead. It's definitely possible to make comebacks more plausible, and snowballing less prominent without rewarding failure, and have a fun, interesting game at the same time. That's the challenge.

 

[Deleted member]

johnny only one repping unique thought process lol

dont matter how ******** it is, if you find one good thing its worth it

btw at what point would 10% auto attack reduction be more useful than like.. a chain vest for example

btw i always thought flad ad >> arpen

ganking matters more in solo q only. cuz negative nancys will destroy the other team not bc of the gank itself. 1 gank is next to meaningless in the scope of the whole game

its more of a hypothetical idea than anything, but as you go way too high in armor that additional armor barely does again that 10% from tabi might be better (if you got mercs/ mobility)

but its only in like <1% of situations, i was just wondering if boots passives stacked more than anything

 

[DarkDragoon]

I really doubt any intelligent, experienced, competitive game designer would ever agree with you on this point. The mechanics are there for 'fun.' That's how every mechanic that doesn't focus on player skill come about.

For example, the design team felt League needed a draw for new players to play it in early, early beta. RNG and arbitary comeback mechanics appeal to casuals. Then when they get people hooked and it becomes popular, they begin appealing to the esport community by phasing out the anti-competitive, lazy bull**** they introduced earlier in favor of promoting consistent play instead. It's definitely possible to make comebacks more plausible, and snowballing less prominent without rewarding failure, and have a fun, interesting game at the same time. That's the challenge.

This so hard.
When I design/make games, I use as little RNG as possible as the games progress because the most consistent fun is in consistent play.

-DD