-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!
- Thread starter JTB
- Start date
He also has no innate sustainability and no CC aside from his ultimate. Also important to how strong he is depending on his damage numbers on his regular spells.
Jazriel
Smash Ace
[COLLAPSE="Response to straight8"]
Don't dismiss my apparent omniscience with your own by declaring omniscience is impossible. Too easy /bored[/COLLAPSE]
There you go straight8. Though I'm a bit surprised that someone is trying this again. I thought this forum was tired of me.
Don't dismiss my apparent omniscience with your own by declaring omniscience is impossible. Too easy /bored[/COLLAPSE]
There you go straight8. Though I'm a bit surprised that someone is trying this again. I thought this forum was tired of me.
He is new here.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Y'all see the new plans for the jungle?
Straight from Guinsoo
So, in short, it looks like jungle mini-camps are going to be considerably weakened but respawn significantly faster and be worth less gold.
Red Buff will haste the user instead of slowing the target.
When a foe gets pushed under his turret, his gold gain (possibly also experience gain) will be hampered in some way.
Flash/ghost will no longer be integral to gameplay (and flash will be removed IF guinsoo can get the game to a point where it isn't necessary to gameplay)
Straight from Guinsoo
The main problem with the slow on Lizard is that it means if you get caught by it overextended, you die. A haste will make it so that that man can kill you, not that man's team can kill you (if you get caught).
This is an integral cog in increasing early game activity (knowing you're not GUARANTEED to die if you get caught out of position means you can be more aggressive), making the jungle more accessible to low level summoners, making the jungle less sensitive to counter jungling (right now it's too big of a swing if you get counter jungled, although I will concede this is the weakest point in the system that needs to be solved), allowing more champions to jungle, making Smite less necessary, allowing non-jungle champions to jungle more (in other words allow role flexibility WITHIN a game not just between games), and probably at least half a dozen major goals as well, and for actually increasing skill differentiation within the jungle.
One of my major problems with the jungle right now is that due to the long respawn timers, there actually is little choice for the player - you have a set route and you gank (generally) when your jungle is clear. There are times when you vary this, but for the most part this is what you do. We'd like to make it so that at all given points, junglers have more interesting choices for what they want to do - should I level up, gank, invade, etc? Ideally they'd all be more valuable for actually doing, but have a higher opportunity cost for doing so - in other words they're all good options but you have to pick what would be most advantageous for your team.
I agree that some champions are hit harder by the loss of slow on Lizard than others (Master Yi for example) but in general those champions are the ones that are going to benefit most from the other side of this coin - reducing monster spawns and making so that if you just sit and farm your jungle, you will earn more resources. In general it will work out, and we can tune the cases that don't.
Also, the jungle is hard enough right now such that we have to make champions basically OP to succeed in the jungle - see Warwick, Udyr.
This is an integral cog in increasing early game activity (knowing you're not GUARANTEED to die if you get caught out of position means you can be more aggressive), making the jungle more accessible to low level summoners, making the jungle less sensitive to counter jungling (right now it's too big of a swing if you get counter jungled, although I will concede this is the weakest point in the system that needs to be solved), allowing more champions to jungle, making Smite less necessary, allowing non-jungle champions to jungle more (in other words allow role flexibility WITHIN a game not just between games), and probably at least half a dozen major goals as well, and for actually increasing skill differentiation within the jungle.
One of my major problems with the jungle right now is that due to the long respawn timers, there actually is little choice for the player - you have a set route and you gank (generally) when your jungle is clear. There are times when you vary this, but for the most part this is what you do. We'd like to make it so that at all given points, junglers have more interesting choices for what they want to do - should I level up, gank, invade, etc? Ideally they'd all be more valuable for actually doing, but have a higher opportunity cost for doing so - in other words they're all good options but you have to pick what would be most advantageous for your team.
I agree that some champions are hit harder by the loss of slow on Lizard than others (Master Yi for example) but in general those champions are the ones that are going to benefit most from the other side of this coin - reducing monster spawns and making so that if you just sit and farm your jungle, you will earn more resources. In general it will work out, and we can tune the cases that don't.
Also, the jungle is hard enough right now such that we have to make champions basically OP to succeed in the jungle - see Warwick, Udyr.
OK, let me try to address a few key issues that I think there is a lot of concern about.
First, the interaction between red buff and overextending. I don't believe that overextending shouldn't cause you to die. By definition, overextending means you extended too far, and so this is a relative term. What I think we want to do here is adjust what overextending is to some degree, but more importantly, to allow and encourage lane pushing. The biggest issue here is that it's bad to push, when that should in reality be the main objective. I think it's fine if pushing is sometimes good, but having it rarely or never be good (as is the case now) is not. This is a complex problem, but it is telling to me that destroying a lot of turrets causes a game to snowball hard, but pushing a turret is still almost always bad.
Wards do help, but they will never change the fact that pushing early is bad, which is something we'd like to change (at least make it a reasonable option). Others have noted how streamers push their lane, retreat to the turret, and alt tab sometimes. Obviously there are a lot of factors that go into this, not just wards and Lizard. Some champions can also bypass wards to some degree when ganking like Rammus and Evelynn. We just want to adjust what the definition of overextending is, rather than making it so that champions that overextend survive too often.
Second, I should stress that I don't feel changing of Lizard buff is mandatory to this goal. It technically was the last change on the list and is least important to the goals in my opinion. Having said that, if possible, it allows us to free up a lot of other things. For example I don't think we can do much with Flash considering how integral it is to ranged carries without a change to Lizard buff. I cannot get into too much detail, but our experiences creating other maps (including Twisted Treeline) leads us to believe that having Lizard with a slow is bad. I do believe that we cannot change or remove Flash without a change to Lizard, as well.
I do also think that there are some other small issues that play into this that we'll have to solve - for example I think early death timers may be too long with these changes, minions deal too much damage to champions (attackers are going to need to be able to fight back against mages and tanks), sending a champion back to base isn't enough reward, early solo kills may cause lanes to snowball a bit too much. These are all small adjustments that we could make if necessary. For example to help address the weakening of counterjungling one thing I plan to do is shift even more of the reward into the big minions of the camp, meaning you'll still get a lot or perhaps even more reward from killing the big guy and leaving 1 small one alive. Any of those would probably be good changes for the game holistically, though.
Third, I do not want to make ganks not happen. I want to make a Lizard buff not a guaranteed kill if you're too far from a turret, and I just want it to be a bit weaker than it is now. I know this seems bad at first glance, but consider this in tandem with all of the other things that are being discussed in the set of changes. If players are more incented to push, and not as worried about being guaranteed to die, and have more trouble farming under their own turret, they will be more likely to push (as turrets are worth a lot of gold) so I don't think ganks will be as difficult as people think. Also, remember that these are all in general fairly small changes, so it will hopefully be a bunch of small changes effecting the change we want (reduced early passivity is the general goal). While Lizard being a haste on the jungler will be a little bit weaker of a gank, it means he can get to the lanes faster, gank more often, feint ganks on lanes and go elsewhere, farm the jungle faster, defend lanes faster, and still be significantly more effective than a non-buffed jungler gank. This seems like it should open up more options for junglers than what exist now, which is a more focused scenario in that when you catch an enemy exposed, unwarded, and with Lizard you have a high likelihood to kill them; but if any of those fail you probably fail to gank. I would rather see more of the skill be in how manuevers be executed, than how well you deny the jungler opportunities to gank you by skillfully 'losing' your lane.
I also think there is significant underestimation how much a nice haste helps a gank (Lizard is only 5/10% at low levels). The haste is more than 5/10%. I also think people are overestimating the reliance most champions have on red buff, and like I mentioned earlier, we have experience that leads us to believe this.
Fourth, I want to stress once again that yes, this will be hard. I already consider it the hardest task I've ever undertaken as a designer. It is definitely necessary to consider the changes holistically; they are very much intertwined. I agree that the biggest two concerns with the entire approach are that changing red buff could change the game too much and make ganks too difficult, and that counterjungling will be invalidated. I don't want to invalidate counterjungling, but I do want counterjungling to be a little less sharp and harmful. Please stress the word a little. As far as red buff, as I noted above I'm not tied to it at all, and if it does ruin the game too much, I'm not at all opposed to moving the slow back (and probably reducing it a little early in the game, and honestly I don't even know if it still needs the melee/ranged difference, but unsure). But like I said, our experience with other maps leads us to believe that removing the slow will be beneficial. I know we have it on Twisted Treeline, but when we designed the map it was the least offensive option available with the tech we had available, which has since grown.
This is a long time away from going in, in fact we have not even tested it yet (except in single player). There is *no doubt* a lot of tuning to come. It's still entirely possible that pieces or the entirety will not ever ship. Random edited note - this is not affecting Twisted Treeline.
First, the interaction between red buff and overextending. I don't believe that overextending shouldn't cause you to die. By definition, overextending means you extended too far, and so this is a relative term. What I think we want to do here is adjust what overextending is to some degree, but more importantly, to allow and encourage lane pushing. The biggest issue here is that it's bad to push, when that should in reality be the main objective. I think it's fine if pushing is sometimes good, but having it rarely or never be good (as is the case now) is not. This is a complex problem, but it is telling to me that destroying a lot of turrets causes a game to snowball hard, but pushing a turret is still almost always bad.
Wards do help, but they will never change the fact that pushing early is bad, which is something we'd like to change (at least make it a reasonable option). Others have noted how streamers push their lane, retreat to the turret, and alt tab sometimes. Obviously there are a lot of factors that go into this, not just wards and Lizard. Some champions can also bypass wards to some degree when ganking like Rammus and Evelynn. We just want to adjust what the definition of overextending is, rather than making it so that champions that overextend survive too often.
Second, I should stress that I don't feel changing of Lizard buff is mandatory to this goal. It technically was the last change on the list and is least important to the goals in my opinion. Having said that, if possible, it allows us to free up a lot of other things. For example I don't think we can do much with Flash considering how integral it is to ranged carries without a change to Lizard buff. I cannot get into too much detail, but our experiences creating other maps (including Twisted Treeline) leads us to believe that having Lizard with a slow is bad. I do believe that we cannot change or remove Flash without a change to Lizard, as well.
I do also think that there are some other small issues that play into this that we'll have to solve - for example I think early death timers may be too long with these changes, minions deal too much damage to champions (attackers are going to need to be able to fight back against mages and tanks), sending a champion back to base isn't enough reward, early solo kills may cause lanes to snowball a bit too much. These are all small adjustments that we could make if necessary. For example to help address the weakening of counterjungling one thing I plan to do is shift even more of the reward into the big minions of the camp, meaning you'll still get a lot or perhaps even more reward from killing the big guy and leaving 1 small one alive. Any of those would probably be good changes for the game holistically, though.
Third, I do not want to make ganks not happen. I want to make a Lizard buff not a guaranteed kill if you're too far from a turret, and I just want it to be a bit weaker than it is now. I know this seems bad at first glance, but consider this in tandem with all of the other things that are being discussed in the set of changes. If players are more incented to push, and not as worried about being guaranteed to die, and have more trouble farming under their own turret, they will be more likely to push (as turrets are worth a lot of gold) so I don't think ganks will be as difficult as people think. Also, remember that these are all in general fairly small changes, so it will hopefully be a bunch of small changes effecting the change we want (reduced early passivity is the general goal). While Lizard being a haste on the jungler will be a little bit weaker of a gank, it means he can get to the lanes faster, gank more often, feint ganks on lanes and go elsewhere, farm the jungle faster, defend lanes faster, and still be significantly more effective than a non-buffed jungler gank. This seems like it should open up more options for junglers than what exist now, which is a more focused scenario in that when you catch an enemy exposed, unwarded, and with Lizard you have a high likelihood to kill them; but if any of those fail you probably fail to gank. I would rather see more of the skill be in how manuevers be executed, than how well you deny the jungler opportunities to gank you by skillfully 'losing' your lane.
I also think there is significant underestimation how much a nice haste helps a gank (Lizard is only 5/10% at low levels). The haste is more than 5/10%. I also think people are overestimating the reliance most champions have on red buff, and like I mentioned earlier, we have experience that leads us to believe this.
Fourth, I want to stress once again that yes, this will be hard. I already consider it the hardest task I've ever undertaken as a designer. It is definitely necessary to consider the changes holistically; they are very much intertwined. I agree that the biggest two concerns with the entire approach are that changing red buff could change the game too much and make ganks too difficult, and that counterjungling will be invalidated. I don't want to invalidate counterjungling, but I do want counterjungling to be a little less sharp and harmful. Please stress the word a little. As far as red buff, as I noted above I'm not tied to it at all, and if it does ruin the game too much, I'm not at all opposed to moving the slow back (and probably reducing it a little early in the game, and honestly I don't even know if it still needs the melee/ranged difference, but unsure). But like I said, our experience with other maps leads us to believe that removing the slow will be beneficial. I know we have it on Twisted Treeline, but when we designed the map it was the least offensive option available with the tech we had available, which has since grown.
This is a long time away from going in, in fact we have not even tested it yet (except in single player). There is *no doubt* a lot of tuning to come. It's still entirely possible that pieces or the entirety will not ever ship. Random edited note - this is not affecting Twisted Treeline.
So, in short, it looks like jungle mini-camps are going to be considerably weakened but respawn significantly faster and be worth less gold.
Red Buff will haste the user instead of slowing the target.
When a foe gets pushed under his turret, his gold gain (possibly also experience gain) will be hampered in some way.
Flash/ghost will no longer be integral to gameplay (and flash will be removed IF guinsoo can get the game to a point where it isn't necessary to gameplay)
@TKbreezy
Follow me on Twitter!
aight welp time to start busting out that Rally/Cleanse Vayne....-_-
I find it humorous that five or six months ago they wanted to kick champions that "didn't belong there" out of the jungle and now they want to reduce the necessity of smite and open up the jungle to more champs. I can see where they are coming from with the counter-jungling issues though. It is frustrating when the other team does a good job with that and your jungler ends up WAY behind. Now he can't gank and it changes the entire character of the game for your side. On the flip side of that... shouldn't you be rewarded for effective counter-jungling? The outcome will probably be that the counter-jungle meta will revolve more around setting up critical ganks in there, rather than just taking neutrals. Less Nunu style counter jungling and more Shaco/Eve style.
I don't really understand Monkey King to be honest. With the theme, they had the chance to do a really acrobatic, high RPM champion like some kind of mix between Kassadin and Master Yi. Let him flip in and out, leap around the map quickly and maybe set up other champions to succeed. Kinda like support/DPS. Instead they took a generic skill set and stuck it onto a champ who didn't necessarily fit it thematically. I think he'll be fun still, but I think they missed a good opportunity here.
I don't really understand Monkey King to be honest. With the theme, they had the chance to do a really acrobatic, high RPM champion like some kind of mix between Kassadin and Master Yi. Let him flip in and out, leap around the map quickly and maybe set up other champions to succeed. Kinda like support/DPS. Instead they took a generic skill set and stuck it onto a champ who didn't necessarily fit it thematically. I think he'll be fun still, but I think they missed a good opportunity here.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Guinsoo said the rough plan on this issue is that Ancient Golem and Lizard Elder will probably have more importance placed on them (they may give more Exp and Gold... iunno) so that there is a larger than current benefit to killing the buff bearing neutral and leaving only one of his minions alive.
(I'd think you could do the same thing by shifting a heaveier percentage of the wraith camp's loot on the blue wraith and the wolf camp's loot on the blue wolf)
PSYCHICCCCCCCCCCCC SPEARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
OH MYYY GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWDDDDDDDDDDDD
caaaps.
jiovanni007
Smash Ace
Free Morgana week means trolling with Morgana.
I honestly never found her to be very overwhelmingly good so I wanna troll with her. How does this look: RoA, Merc's, FH, Abyssal, Rylai's, Reverie's.
order is giving me trouble, can't really figure out whats most efficient.
I honestly never found her to be very overwhelmingly good so I wanna troll with her. How does this look: RoA, Merc's, FH, Abyssal, Rylai's, Reverie's.
order is giving me trouble, can't really figure out whats most efficient.
[insert that really long neck face meme pic]
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
god I hate ponies so much
I hate ponies almost as much as I love Teemo
almost
I hate ponies almost as much as I love Teemo
almost
Jazriel
Smash Ace
How to play morgana: Chalice, ap, ap, ap, ap, ap. Boots maybe.Free Morgana week means trolling with Morgana.
I honestly never found her to be very overwhelmingly good so I wanna troll with her. How does this look: RoA, Merc's, FH, Abyssal, Rylai's, Reverie's.
order is giving me trouble, can't really figure out whats most efficient.
jiovanni007
Smash Ace
But then good players will focus you and kill you. She's so squishy considering her damage output is outclassed by a lot of other ap champs.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 5,517
That is because you're normal.
More like: Dring, Merc Treads, Dring, Dring, Dring, Dring
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
well then come to terms with this:god I hate ponies so much
I hate ponies almost as much as I love Teemo
almost
Are they the cutest of ponies or are they annoying teemos?
Jazriel
Smash Ace
Just had an unbelievably rage-inducing game. 9 bad people, and me. I would've had 2 double kills early game bot lane as Vayne but Kayle though heal was a bad skill. Much better to run into yorick/rumble who tower dive non-stop and are always <50% HP instead.
Yorick is ****ing unbelievable. Triforce, GA, Heart, Manamune, Veil. ****ing impossible to kill. For 20 minutes this is how my game went: Dance around the back of the team fight taking pot shots. Yorick comes from the side and ults himself, flashes to me, exhausts me, and proceeds to almost kill me. Then I kill yorick and kill him again and then almost kill his ghost but then I die.
What a ****ing bull**** ******** hero. And why does he have like no cooldowns? All game long it was spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam. What a dumb hero.
And why does everyone and their mom have better MS than a vayne with double pdancer trying to chase them down. GP uses Raise Morale and makes it so I can barely catch up to him WITH MY ULTIMATE ACTIVE.
/rant. GP and Yorick are dumb heroes.
Yorick is ****ing unbelievable. Triforce, GA, Heart, Manamune, Veil. ****ing impossible to kill. For 20 minutes this is how my game went: Dance around the back of the team fight taking pot shots. Yorick comes from the side and ults himself, flashes to me, exhausts me, and proceeds to almost kill me. Then I kill yorick and kill him again and then almost kill his ghost but then I die.
What a ****ing bull**** ******** hero. And why does he have like no cooldowns? All game long it was spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam. What a dumb hero.
And why does everyone and their mom have better MS than a vayne with double pdancer trying to chase them down. GP uses Raise Morale and makes it so I can barely catch up to him WITH MY ULTIMATE ACTIVE.
/rant. GP and Yorick are dumb heroes.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
Bad, to be honestFree Morgana week means trolling with Morgana.
I honestly never found her to be very overwhelmingly good so I wanna troll with her. How does this look: RoA, Merc's, FH, Abyssal, Rylai's, Reverie's.
order is giving me trouble, can't really figure out whats most efficient.
Rylai's is an awful item on her. Pool only gets the AoE slow percentage and it will basically be ignorable. Binding keeps them in place too long and the slow wears off. And your ultimate has a mixture of the two - it's slow for a second at the start but not much, and the second slow will be nullified by the stun.
Also, your build doesn't include Zhonya's Hourglass, which is arguably the most important part of her build.
What I use personally is 1-2 DRings > Hourglass > Deathcap, but that might not appeal to you. Incorporating some of your ideas, it might be good to try 1 DRing > Philo Stone > Catalyst > RoA > Hourglass > Glacial Shroud > FH, Abyssal, and Reverie in some order. Seems expensive though
those aren't teemos, they're fugly ponies.well then come to terms with this:
Are they the cutest of ponies or are they annoying teemos?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Orion has been giving away crap ton of RP today. Already gave away $100 in RP. Idk where he's getting it from lol.
http://www.morecowbell.com/
He's doing more contests than actually league playing lol
http://www.morecowbell.com/
He's doing more contests than actually league playing lol
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
I'm actually going to try Morde this time. How's this build:
D Shield or Regrowth + Pot
Revolver
Giant's Belt > Rylai's
Gunblade and FoN
Not sure if I should get the Revolver that early, and definitely not sure if this is a good enough balance between offense and defense. Suggestions?
D Shield or Regrowth + Pot
Revolver
Giant's Belt > Rylai's
Gunblade and FoN
Not sure if I should get the Revolver that early, and definitely not sure if this is a good enough balance between offense and defense. Suggestions?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
ditto. That's how I do it.
it's riskier for the first few levels but the payout is worth it.
D
Deleted member
Guest
best and only way to play morde is ******** ap/lifesteal
deathcap+lichbane+ will of ancients i guess and you will 1 shot their carry and instantly make it 6v4
crowd survivability
onhit smack + debuff
juke nuke
dash attack
spin2win
=
Tank Kit
what?
Monkey King has definite inspiration from Phantom Lancer, so it's not surprising that HoN would bark up that tree too.
something something final fantasy something something 7777 something something *facepalm*
I may burn this thread to disinfect it if I see too many ponies.
Jazriel
Smash Ace
So I've now had to suffer Yorick's existence in another few games. Is it just me or is this guy just beyond imbalanced right now? His slow beats Ghost and Vayne's passive, his ms increase beats Exhaust. He can 1v3 under a tower and get a double kill and the tower. This hero is just stupid, it's like Riot took a hero, balanced it, and then added 50 to everything. Or am I just unlucky having multiple games with 1-10+ allies every game?