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Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!
- Thread starter JTB
- Start date
Manamune, axe, and cloak is inferior to IE. However, Manamune, BF Sword, and Fort Elixir is greater or on Par with IE. The higher of a level you get to, the better IE gets against Manamune and BF Sword since the crit bonus damage will match the higher AD the other set gives you.
Seriously? I just said that I want actual statistical data. I don't want words like "greater" and "on par". How much greater is it? Guess I'll just do it myself. Someone correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not the best at this.
Alrighty, let's just say my attack is 100 because calculations will probably be easier that way. Dunno what most champs have at level 10 or whatnot.
Manamune: +350 mana. +7 over 5 mana regen. 2% of mana pool increase in attack. Eventually you get 1000 mana.
Cloak of Agility: +18% Critical Strike.
Pickaxe: +25 attack
Infinity Edge: +80 attack. +20 Critical Strike. Crits now do 250 percent instead of 200.
The 350 mana gives you +7 instantly. Let's just assume that by the time you buy a CoA and Pickaxe you maxed out the extra mana. That's an additional 20 attack so +27. This doesn't include your champions natural mana pool as well. I'll just say it's 500 mana and add 10 for a total of +37.
62 attack bonus, +18% critical strike. Over 100 attacks that's (162*82)+(162*18*2) = 13284 + 5832 = 19116. Divide by 100 and that's an average of 191.16 per attack.
80 attack bonus, 20% crit, and crit bonus. That's (180*80) + (180*20*2.5) = 14400 + 9000 = 23400. That's an average of 234 per attack.
So basically in the time that it takes you to get 1900 gold or whatever you're giving up about 40 attack for 7 over 5 mana regen.
Okay, let's say you get a BF sword and not a Pickaxe + Agility cloak. That's +87 attack for an easy calculation of 187 per attack. Fort pot will not make up that difference, though the added health isn't factored.
People need to play with Iggy before dismissing Manamune on Ashe.
I mean you can compare attack damage and the Manamune might seem pretty lackluster, but just factoring in the attack damage bonus ignores the primary reason for buying the manamune. It's purpose is to allow physical carries to have a little more spammability for their abilities. Corki, Yi, Ashe, etc. all have problems with mana if they want to use their abilities a lot. If I can get a bunch of extras casts of gatlin gun volley, or alpha strike, I might get a few kills that I would not have gotten if I was purely damage.
It also allows you to grab tear early which makes you a larger danger in lane. For the majority of characters in the early game, abilities don't gain much from items. In laning phase, the ability itself is the danger, not the AP or AD bonus damage you get from items. Being able to spam a little more while still building an item that aids in an AD build can be worth while. I feel like the manamune helps you snowball into the monstrous late game physical carry rather than IE, where you just go from average to Godlike when you finish it.
Apple, for vigorPlease sign my petition thread:
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=249368
Banana, for insight
Blueberry, for divinity
yes
You got most of it right, but Manamune adds in another base 20 damage on top of what you get from the mana-based bonus.
But as others pointed out, it's more complicated than that due to the fact that you have to wait to build up that max mana pool and you need to also consider the value of that extra mana. On top of that, IE also scales much better with additional damage and additional crit rate.
I dunno if anyone's really dismissing it so much as questioning it.
This is a good post with respects to certain characters and really captures why I was rushing manamune on Corki last night when I was smurfing. Most of your early damage output comes from abilities, not items, so giving yourself the larger mana pool and extra regen can make you more dangerous than simply investing in faster AD.
But some characters see a big drop off in their damage output without investing in early damage items. For instance, Pantheon's spear shot damage mostly from your AD, not the base damage on the ability. It also, as a physical damage ability, has a lot to gain from an early investment in armor penetration (brutalizer), so the difference you'll see between getting tear + long sword vs. getting brutalizer on your first trip back is just huge. Ashe's volley works much the same way, but at least in Ashe's case, your entire value to the game doesn't depend on your ability to dominate your lane, so perhaps delaying your ability to threaten the lane in favor of building towards a lategame where you can sustainably keep your Q up is worthwhile. But I don't really know, I neither play Ashe, nor see any Ashes in my ranked games anymore.
Another thing I think needs to be discussed with Manamune is how it allows for a Meki Pendant opening which can alleviate the need for mana regen runes, which opens up extra slots on Yellow and Blue for other stats. This is sorta the crux to why I think manamune doesn't work on Pantheon. Without opening boots, you can't reliably zone people who open boots. If you have to open boots, you have to invest in mana regen runes because you can't keep up with your Spear Shots unless you pack a lot of early mana regen. If you invest in mana regen runes, you no longer have anything to gain from the giant mana pool granted by manamune. If opening meki pendant were viable on Pantheon, I'd say that manamune could work for him, but the simple fact of the matter is that starting with 391 movespeed is an enormous part of what makes Pantheon so devastating on a solo, and by dropping that to 340, you're sacrificing strength at the moment you need it most.
Less math talk, more signing my petition. FRUIT BASKET TARIC GO GO GO!
Cia
das kwl
I tried this.
However, I've ben using AP fortune, and I believe this build is better for a number of reasons.
- by level 7, make it rain is clearing an entire minion wave (probably lv 5 with all force runes @ lv 30) It takes no time to get to lv 7 assuming they let me mid. this gives me insanely early pushes. Not only that but she easily last hits minions and KS's. Ur teammates will *****, but Fortune will carry so who cares.
- the W move (forgot the name) makes it so that she can do solid AP DPS while laning.
- bullet time (ult) is fueled by whatever your highest offensive stat is. This makes her sooo versatile. But I've been games with this Amumu player who snares the team while I Ult them. Nets me about 3 kills every time.
I've never had a problem with an opponent in solo mid. (Other than fortune dittos) I've laned against Anivia, Ezreal, Tristana, Twitch, Vladimir. Haven't gotten Morgana or Malzahar yet, but I feel like I'd **** them
- I've gotten numerous complaints about MF being overpowered. (2 of them ez players.. lol) but I'm actually starting to believe it. I hope they don't nerf "make it rain"
AP is really gimmicky on MF. No one runs AP on her in higher level games.
I'm not sure why anyone thought I wasn't factoring in the mana regen on Manamune. But how do you compare it besides simply mentioning it? I just wanted to see what you were sacrificing in attack damage instead of rushing IE.
Can't believe I forgot the +20 on Mana. Oh well.
I did find it interesting that a pickaxe and cloak of agility is better than a BF sword.
Can't believe I forgot the +20 on Mana. Oh well.
I did find it interesting that a pickaxe and cloak of agility is better than a BF sword.
2 things to remember about pickaxe and agility cloak vs. BF Sword:
1. on the first attack of a fight, agility cloak is useless because Ashe will crit 100% of the time from her passive.
2. volley doesn't use crit chance at all.
1. on the first attack of a fight, agility cloak is useless because Ashe will crit 100% of the time from her passive.
2. volley doesn't use crit chance at all.
yea, though a lot less so since the elixir buff.
Crossjeremiah
Smash Ace
AP fortune not that great imo. she can probably be pretty good early game then end game she dies down a lil. after you spam your 2 spells then you have to wait for your cooldowns. just play veigar or something if you want OP AP. also AD is so much better. just get Inifinity edge and get red buff or frozen mallet you can focus down people like 3 secs its dumb. her range is on par to tristanas. but not saying better than hers. she can just chase down people real easily. i
Leacero
Smash Lord
Zilean nerfs in upcoming patch, although not too severe, are unwarranted.
Also Blitzcrank power fist buff is <3.
Also Blitzcrank power fist buff is <3.
Crossjeremiah
Smash Ace
So manasume is **** on ez.
one of my favorite builds now
stack dorans blades
farm up
manasume/madreds bloodrazor/ to w/e other core item (trinityforce/bloodthirster/frozen mallet/stinger)
i'm debating whether manasume to sheen would be a better choice.
one of my favorite builds now
stack dorans blades
farm up
manasume/madreds bloodrazor/ to w/e other core item (trinityforce/bloodthirster/frozen mallet/stinger)
i'm debating whether manasume to sheen would be a better choice.
Stacking D-Blades is not something you should do as part of your core build... it's a way to catch up quickly when you're down by a lot, but it's not something you should plan on doing.
Uh, whatever happened to that Brut to Sheen stuff? Ez is **** Early game, like Pantheon on Crack. Brut to Sheen gives him ******** burst and sustained DPS. Manamune feels REALLY slow on EZ. It doesn't sound bad as an item, it just sounds too slow.
Edit: That ain't TT either, don't be Doran stacking on SR lol. TT yeah ok it makes sense, dominate early game with best early game stat item over and over, but SR more about farming up, getting what you need, and ****** later.
Edit: That ain't TT either, don't be Doran stacking on SR lol. TT yeah ok it makes sense, dominate early game with best early game stat item over and over, but SR more about farming up, getting what you need, and ****** later.
People just cut the Sheen out for an earlier Bloodthirster. Sheen does make your Q hit like a truck a little earlier, but it slows down the next item by a lot and doesn't really help out with all the auto-attacking Ez does later on.
I think there's a lot of appeal to manamune on Ezreal, most notably that it lets you cut Mana Regen runes out in favor of opening Meki Pendant and opting for other blue/yellow runes. He also scales best off of straight AD (the reason he just goes for a fast bloodthirster most of the time), and manamune is quite good at giving straight up AD. I would probably do meki -> boots -> bruta -> manamune -> bloodthirster if I were to play Ez at this point, but since I don't play him any more, I can't vouch for how good such a build is in practice.
And no, Ezreal is not even close to Pantheon on crack. Pantheon is still stronger early game by a big margin.
I think there's a lot of appeal to manamune on Ezreal, most notably that it lets you cut Mana Regen runes out in favor of opening Meki Pendant and opting for other blue/yellow runes. He also scales best off of straight AD (the reason he just goes for a fast bloodthirster most of the time), and manamune is quite good at giving straight up AD. I would probably do meki -> boots -> bruta -> manamune -> bloodthirster if I were to play Ez at this point, but since I don't play him any more, I can't vouch for how good such a build is in practice.
And no, Ezreal is not even close to Pantheon on crack. Pantheon is still stronger early game by a big margin.
Leacero
Smash Lord
Ezreals on TT = start with fort pot -> fight for liz -> get liz -> ???? -> profit
TT is dumb
I seriously feel like coming back on that map is impossible and it just makes me mad every time I play it.
I seriously feel like coming back on that map is impossible and it just makes me mad every time I play it.
I don't find completely dominating wins all that gratifying when they're nothing special, you know? Like, what makes those 17-1-13 games so fun is that they're rare and you feel like such a ****** after them. But on TT, it's just like, "w/e, we got first liz, ***** their jungle, zoned their lanes then aced them again, yawn" it's just the status quo to **** them up after those first 2 teamfights.
ruin`
Smash Journeyman
That's why there's grand finals...
Crossjeremiah
Smash Ace
well stacking dorans is for that hp after you farm up you should have manasume then you sell that some dorans for parts of your madreds. why i say madreds is because your q should hit pretty well with that armor pen and you have enough attack speed to melt down a squishy in 3 seconds. if you got the sheen early then you wouldn't kill people as well but you would be amazing at poking but the madreds should be built over the sheen imo. then after that you buy your sheen if not get trinity forces by then the game should be over
just went 13/2 5 minutes ago. its a really good build doesnt require as much time as getting those bloodthirsters.
my rune page is one of my favorite rune pages
blue - magic resist level 18
yellows - health at 18 = 175
quins - move speed
reds - armor pen
of course 21/0/9 mastery
just went 13/2 5 minutes ago. its a really good build doesnt require as much time as getting those bloodthirsters.
my rune page is one of my favorite rune pages
blue - magic resist level 18
yellows - health at 18 = 175
quins - move speed
reds - armor pen
of course 21/0/9 mastery
Why move speed quints? I never understood that at all. Ez already has a built in flash and most of them carry ghost, flash or both. You have plenty of survivability and mobility already, so why not get more armor pen or flat health so you can hit harder all game or farm longer early?
Nakamaru
Smash Master
TT is great for learning the game, because it kind of forces you to learn your character to a certain degree. I was on the boat of loving TT and hating SR, but that was because TT was just so much easier to understand. Once i actually got into playing SR more than once a night, i started to really like it.
By the way, the new Champion looks awesome. I can't wait to give her a shot.
By the way, the new Champion looks awesome. I can't wait to give her a shot.
Ezreal has too much to gain from ArPen Quints to run anything else, IMO.
Offensive masteries are also bad so I really don't know what to say to, "21/0/9 of course" other than... no, just no. Granted, Ezreal is one of the few characters who can get away with 21 in offensive, but I still much prefer 0/21/9, 9/0/21 or 0/9/21.
Offensive masteries are also bad so I really don't know what to say to, "21/0/9 of course" other than... no, just no. Granted, Ezreal is one of the few characters who can get away with 21 in offensive, but I still much prefer 0/21/9, 9/0/21 or 0/9/21.
That's a weird build and you know it Cross lol
Agree@ first statement
Its funny you mention the offensive tree being bad because I just saw a huge discussion the other day about how terrible the defensive tree is and how tanky characters who don't need to jungle should focus on utiliity instead. In fact, most people say Galio should go 9/0/21 and he's a true tank. I think the general consensus is that Utility > Off/Def at least.
Defensive Tree is boss. Utility is better, but it's like Utility > Defensive >>>>> Offensive.
Essentially, anyone who jungles or harasses during laning has A LOT to gain from Defensive Mastery and Harden Skin and anyone with Mana will see a noticeable increase in their staying power with Strength of Spirit. Not to mention Tenacity is about 5 times better than Havoc.
Essentially, anyone who jungles or harasses during laning has A LOT to gain from Defensive Mastery and Harden Skin and anyone with Mana will see a noticeable increase in their staying power with Strength of Spirit. Not to mention Tenacity is about 5 times better than Havoc.
ruin`
Smash Journeyman
hitting alot=offensive tree
getting hit alot=defensive tree
Champion uses spells more than hitting or taking hits=Utility tree
getting hit alot=defensive tree
Champion uses spells more than hitting or taking hits=Utility tree
Vyke
Smash Champion
I agree.
Also, I want you to record a good game of pantheon so I can see this in action, Mog.
Azen had a bad losing streak, sucks.
Leacero
Smash Lord
Are you guys stalking Azen's profile?
Naw. I randomly met him in a ranked game on our side. At first I didn't think it was him, so I asked him a question about a tournament long ago in Texas that he went to that only the real Azen would know, and he got it right. I was like LEGIT so I added him.
I see him on a LOT. Like 8 hours or more not being uncommon for him to back to back game, most days of the week.
I see him on a LOT. Like 8 hours or more not being uncommon for him to back to back game, most days of the week.
Does he have a job?
Vyke
Smash Champion
Maybe? You would be hard pressed to get an answer that isn't "lolz" in some form from him.