Gold Characters

[The Cape]

This thread is to determine which characters are considered finished for a Gold release and of course determine what must be done to the others so that we may determine what is wrong with them. Once they are determined Gold we can takes hands off on them and concentrate on more things that we need completed for the final version.

So, my opinions to start and I will edit them as I get feedback from you all:

Gold:
Luigi
Peach
DK
Yoshi
Wario
Zelda
Sheik
Toon Link
ROB
Kirby
Fox
Falcon (Magus has his perfect)
Pikachu
Squirtle (with uair change in Magus set)
Charizard
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Ike
GW

Near Gold:
Mario - D tilt IASA
Bowser - UpB momentum; IASA window on hard upB landing
Link - IASA frames on jabs
Samus - Get out of bomb jump faster; U throw has lower base and growth; Missile cancel
Pit - Multi use Icarus wings (from hit); F tilt comes out a few frames faster (Check frame data)
Lucas - Uair winddown speed up
Snake - Fair winddown speed up, IASA for jump and AD only 5 frames after cypher grab (as well as current Magus fixes)
Sonic - Instant neutral B, can followup with B moves or jump (but no neutral B)
Diddy - UpB explosion
Ganon - Shell?
Marth - Viet post
Wolf - Viet post
Ivysaur - Bullet seed doesnt fail (bit more smash DIable, but links better for more damage); D smash do something? Shield damage maybe?

Rework:
MK - What are we doing with this guy?
Falco - Changes in the works
Ness - Arg

Special Codes:
ICers - Poor Nana
PT - "Reverse PT option"; heal on downB switch; 3 ,minute stamina per pokemon (all PT only)
DDD - Fix PSA: Minions codes; F tilt does 1/4 of sheild in damage
Olimar - Pikmin ghosting

 

[shanus]

I'll have Falco SHL and Ness done soon.

 

[Revven]

Actually, I'm fairly certain with Magus's hex editing we CAN do some stuff to DDD's minions. Not sure what exactly but, if we can't do what we need so, Dantarion is working towards fixing PSA to we can do these three things:

1) Look at Nana's hitboxes and attributes and so forth.
2) DDD
3) PT

So if he gets all of that fixed, we may be able to FINALLY fix Nana (which we should definitely try to do with codes if PSA fails us).

I'm also not sure how you're going to differentiate the indy Pokes from PT with stamina... but I guess you'll have to ask PK or Almas about that.

Also, are we sure that Diddy doesn't need his explosion Up B fixed? Or is it already fixed?

I'm assuming by after settling all of this we're revamping the gameplay mechanics? That's at least what we seemed to have discussed last night.

Edit: Speaking of Magus's hex editing, I'm thinking we can also finally do the spot dodge clean up? As well as port the bulk of PTs and DDD's changes. And mayhaps fix Charizard's flamethrower so you can MAYBE SDI it better?

 

[VietGeek]

Well here's some stuff for the characters I got some idea on =V:

Marth - Near perfect. IDK if Leaf was gonna make fsmash match animation or not. His physics need to also be changed to be lighter. The test .pac I released on the WBR Marth thread seems to be near completion, disregarding any changes Magus did to hitlag or SDIability.

Simply revert bthrow and dthrow changes, add bthrow iasa to compensate for lost universla throw winddown speed-up and it's grand.

Wolf - Near gold. Leaf seems to have Reflector and Uair tweaks done. I added a Bthrow tweak in also. His Fire Wolf is the only move that needs tweaking.

Toon Link - Near gold. New physics and dsmash rework, as well as fsmash 1 having all sp offensive collisions are in the workshop thread. May need some polishing off of that. Otherwise seems great. May try to do something with boomerang and compensate UpB length for gravity changes.

EDIT: I'm assuming then...that you folded the attempt to "fix" Snake then Cape?

 

[Shell]

Ganon bidness:

JAB
-Remove one of the added frames of hitlag on Jab (6 from 7, was 4)
-Set outer hitbox to 7% damage from 9%, probably leave KB un-compensated
-Do final smoothing of animation, move IASA to 24 or 25 from 22
-Optionally: Make SFX have more *POP*

UTILT
-IASA is already removed, good
-Add very light hitbox to initial raising-swing of foot (frame 20-25ish) that knocks opponent into wind
-Dramatically increase wind KB
-Raise Explosion KBG
-SA on down swing

WIZKICK
-Change wind-down to 1.5x from 1.85x -- it has such low KB on bounce that this should still be more than enough to combo

I dunno where he stands now, but I'd trade something for Choke having 8ish% heavy armor. My new Rock-smash-styled-Warlock-Punch was cool, but that'd be (arguably) unnecessary icing on the cake. I can post details if people are intrigued.

Lucas Bidness:
-The boys never stop with the talk of Zair, so I'm going to at least try it myself and then pass judgement. Let's not even argue about it here until I've tried it. Unlikely to get in, but we'll see.
-Uair is 5-9 hit, end 45 -- I'd like to start by shaving off 6 of the 36 frames of cooldown, & see how it looks

 

[VietGeek]

btw Shell, you should probably tweak the zair's launch angle from 60 degrees to something like 30 to invoke tech chases instead. That seemed to be something everyone could agree with IF it made it in.

 

[Revven]

EDIT: I'm assuming then...that you folded the attempt to "fix" Snake then Cape?

Magus actually already shortened Snake's hitbox on Utilt just a tad.

 

[leafgreen386]

Marth: like viet said, he's mostly done, but there's still some more stuff that needs to be done before he's finished.

Wolf: viet left out fixing the nair, but other than that he pretty much had it. If we're going to redo everyone's physics in PSA instead of via codes (like we should, imo), then I'll need to redo the timing on the shine IASA. Currently it should allow for sh shine -> bair if done absolutely frame perfectly, but not sh shine -> fair. He also can't do sh shine -> dsmash (but shine -> jab seems to be more reliable).

Ganon: I'm not sure why we're nerfing the jab like that. Not being able to get people offstage with jab as effectively will really hurt him imo. He has plenty of disadvantage on block of jab (it is shieldgrabbable after all), so nerfing its damage (especially without compensating the kb) doesn't really make sense. Same deal with increasing the lag... the move is already punishable on block. It doesn't need to be even less safe. On a related note, the animation looks really ugly now imo. It was better before.

edit: and I thought we were still gonna do something with fox? I remember someone saying something, but I don't remember what or who said it >_>

 

[Yeroc]

Sheik with Needles reworked: http://www.mediafire.com/?m5dzhvzgmqj

 

[GHNeko]

Mario: Uair change needs to go. It's too inconsistant for comboing because no one is precise enough to consistantly get the frames they want to hit with.

I think his second jab should hit further up and whatnot.

His grab range hasnt been increase and I know he is one of the prime candidates for that, as ganon was the only one to get it, when falcon and mario beg for it.

Marth: Physics as what viet said and adjustments on a few moves such as bair and fair, and a few of his throws. I really need to talk to you viet. :/

 

[JCaesar]

Has ROB had his dash attack reverted yet? If so he's definitely ready for gold.

 

[shanus]

I don't think Fox needs any changes leaf :-O

 

[Revven]

I think leaf is remembering the second jump (NOT first) height change for Fox which Magus has already fixed the height with the value leaf gave him.

 

[Magus420]

If I did I don't have it on my changes list. Might want to check to see if it's in there. I don't know what the value is/was to do that myself.

 

[leafgreen386]

Oh yeah. I even did testing for that. lol

I changed the value from 1.17 to 1.05, which worked out pretty well imo.

Anyway, thy unholy choke of murderous flame hath returned. I managed to get it to be IASAble with dtilt, and with just a small tweak should also IASA with jab, too. Then we can remove the speedup on it (or at least lessen it). Also, on the topic of the choke... is the aerial slam supposed to have zero lag? It's really ridiculous as it is, so I think we should tone that down a bit while we're at it. Oh, and don't leak anything about the choke to the public, please. Not until I have it finished.

 

[shanus]

Oh yeah. I even did testing for that. lol

I changed the value from 1.17 to 1.05, which worked out pretty well imo.

Anyway, thy unholy choke of murderous flame hath returned. I managed to get it to be IASAble with dtilt, and with just a small tweak should also IASA with jab, too. Then we can remove the speedup on it (or at least lessen it). Also, on the topic of the choke... is the aerial slam supposed to have zero lag? It's really ridiculous as it is, so I think we should tone that down a bit while we're at it. Oh, and don't leak anything about the choke to the public, please. Not until I have it finished.

As much as its cool to have it, I kind of believe that ganon doesn't need help anymore, and that the techable choke is more rich than a choke with guaranteed options.

Also, why does fox need a shorter second jump? I personally feel he is kind of ideal in form and function and given the dramatic decrease in utilt utility from less dair utilts, there seems no reason to nerf his vertical options. If there was a character I think we should shoot for in terms of balance, IMO it would be the current fox.

 

[Revven]

I don't know though shanus, he pretty much has the highest second jump vertically now compared to the other spacies, like Wolf and Falco. You don't see them Uairing people off the top (okay well, maybe you do with Falco). It's just silly as to how much height he gets...

 

[shanus]

I don't know though shanus, he pretty much has the highest second jump vertically now compared to the other spacies, like Wolf and Falco. You don't see them Uairing people off the top (okay well, maybe you do with Falco). It's just silly as to how much height he gets...

uairing off the top is fox's thing, you know? He did that in melee also

 

[VietGeek]

It's tradition that Fox plays gay. =V

So we have technically the END of Monday to put in our stuff right?

 

[shanus]

It's tradition that Fox plays gay. =V

So we have technically the END of Monday to put in our stuff right?

Yeah, its not like a hard deadline. Its just to try and get **** together as a lot of tournaments are rolling up soon.

 

[leafgreen386]

uairing off the top is fox's thing, you know? He did that in melee also

He should still be able to uair off the top.... it'll just be a little less ridiculous. Fox uair'd people off the top just fine in melee, and he did not have that big of a dj.

 

[Revven]

I do not agree to changing Wolf any further at this point, to me, he is Gold. Forget aerial shine to whatever. Also, Magus, fire breaths are pretty broken right now, they NEED SDIability seriously. Cape played Bowser today and took someone from like 60% to 120% with fire breath... I think that's broke. It may be the hitlag on it OR the SDIability.

Pikachu's Dsmash needs to be reverted back to the old SDIability. It practically guarantees Dsmash > Thunder right now, which is not what should be happening. The hitlag on it is fine but, the SDIability either needs to allow me to get OUT in the middle of the move or go back to how it was. Because Pikachu should only have Usmash > Thunder, you should be able to escape Dsmash > Thunder but, you can't now because you can't SDI it.

Jiggly's rest also got ****ed really bad with your SDI change. Ganondorf, Sonic, and so forth today SDI'd it at 40% and didn't die from it, living at 80% from it. Revert the SDI back to normal, it was fine how it was, since it's a HUGE risk-reward thing we want it to kill not to almost kill (as that's how it was in vBrawl, right NOW it feels like vBrawl Rest with a different angle).

Everything else hitlag-wise and SDIability-wise seemed okay. Cape and I seem to think that MK should have 1.5x hitlag on Glair, Dtilt, and Up B and the rest of the other moves stay at the default hitlag. But, I dunno, may need to be debated more.

 

[Magus420]

Also, Magus, fire breaths are pretty broken right now, they NEED SDIability seriously. Cape played Bowser today and took someone from like 60% to 120% with fire breath... I think that's broke. It may be the hitlag on it OR the SDIability.

You guys really should have used the recent set. I fixed flamethrower and fire breath.

Pikachu's Dsmash needs to be reverted back to the old SDIability. It practically guarantees Dsmash > Thunder right now, which is not what should be happening. The hitlag on it is fine but, the SDIability either needs to allow me to get OUT in the middle of the move or go back to how it was. Because Pikachu should only have Usmash > Thunder, you should be able to escape Dsmash > Thunder but, you can't now because you can't SDI it.

You can SDI it. SDI better? Use the c-stick too. It just takes more than a single tap to get you above the range now.

Jiggly's rest also got ****ed really bad with your SDI change. Ganondorf, Sonic, and so forth today SDI'd it at 40% and didn't die from it, living at 80% from it. Revert the SDI back to normal, it was fine how it was, since it's a HUGE risk-reward thing we want it to kill not to almost kill (as that's how it was in vBrawl, right NOW it feels like vBrawl Rest with a different angle).

That doesn't even make sense. You know what SDI does right?

Everything else hitlag-wise and SDIability-wise seemed okay. Cape and I seem to think that MK should have 1.5x hitlag on Glair, Dtilt, and Up B and the rest of the other moves stay at the default hitlag. But, I dunno, may need to be debated more.

The hitlag on d-tilt and gl-air are 2 of the more important ones for reducing their advantage on block. Grounded up-b doesnt really matter as much. It does have a high multiplier by default which is why its more noticeable there.

 

[Revven]

You guys really should have used the recent set. I fixed flamethrower and fire breath.

You can SDI it. SDI better? Use the c-stick too. It just takes more than a single tap to get you above the range now.

That doesn't even make sense. You know what SDI does right?

The hitlag on d-tilt and gl-air are 2 of the more important ones for reducing their advantage on block. Grounded up-b doesnt really matter as much. It does have a high multiplier by default which is why its more noticeable there.

1) Well, we stuck with the stuff from yesterday, didn't know **** was updated.

2) I suppose I didn't try double stick SDI on Pika Dsmash. How many taps should it take roughly if I did double stick? 'Cause I did single stick and the whole move still caught me in.

3) I DO know what SDI does (otherwise I wouldn't know how to SDI period which is why I'm worried about Pika Dsmash because I knew how to SDI that), and I'm not lying when I say that Sonic lived when he was supposed to die. He was at 83% or so after the Rest and still lived, it was even near the edge of FD. You can even ask Cape and Shell.

 

[Revven]

Building on reminders, we need to fix Diddy's Up B, read my proposal here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8316985&postcount=10

He's not gold until his Up B is fixed.

Let's also put deadlands back in, I hate LM right now.

 

[GHNeko]

Dead lands with smaller bounderies plz

 

[VietGeek]

Can someone tell me how we made Link's UpB buff possible?

PSA momentum changes can't get it to work properly. Since if I tell it to stack momentum (so it still has horizontal distance gain like before), then if I get hit by something like Falco's laser, it'll have no momentum and simply float Toon Link down.

And the action to cancel vertical momentum is necessary or else TL's double jump momentum will carry, and allow TL to leap from the bottom of Temple to the top.

So...please help? ;_;

 

[The Cape]

I had some thoughts for Wario:

The character is played exactly like he was in vBrawl and the strat is still really effective. This is just laughable for the same reasons as Snake's tilts were when Ally played him.

My fixes are as follows:
- Lower aerial mobility (similar to Mario's): Wario can already out camp most characters with his aerial mobility and his huge priority, the less mobility will force Wario to be a bit smarter about his moves and the high priority still makes him a wall to get through

- F smash has heavy armor instead of super armor: This allows you to grab the move and also combat it with other smashes and some tilts, but it should still go through weak moves. Possibly 10-12%

- Dair has minus 2 damage: One of the most used aerials with great priority and it does 16 O.O

- Uair has minus 2 damage: U throw uair is legit, does 17 damage with uair and kills early. 2 less damage without compensating KB shouldnt hurt Wario too much.

- D tilt and U tilt have less winddown: This allows Wario to have more of a ground game that will assist in bringing his playstyle out a bit more


Other chars:

Peach:
F throw KO buff isnt around anymore, why?

MK:
- Back to most recent set
- D tilt has 1.5x hitlag
- upB has 1.5x hitlag
- SideB fix = ?
- Remove jump glide
- keep higher angles on dair
- keep new upB angles
- 1.5x hitlag on glair
ALR from current set and ADs and such

Been testing this out and he feels really solid right now. I think this might be the one we need.

Mario:
- D tilt IASA (frame 25 IASA)

Tested this with Shell (he has the .pac) Mario is gold

Ganon:
7 dmg on jab instead of 9, peach slap sfx on hit
7% heavy armor on sideB (all IDs)
upB KB
ganon fair sweetspot is the "clunk" sound effect instead of darkness

All sounds good
Link:
IASA on jabs 2 frames earlier on jabs 1 and 2
More base on arrows

Jiggs:
Rest back to previous settings

Bowser:
IASA window on upB hard landing
Heavy Armor on crouch too

Ness:
SideB gets out easier
D throw needs fixed
more KBG on fair last hit

Lucas:
U air winddown speed up

Snake:
Fair IASA for jump and upB after hitbox
upB IASA five frames after grabbing cypher for AD

Diddy:
UpB explosion

The problem with this one is the fact that the explosion is the same from 0 damage up through 999 damage. The stun is a staple. What we can do is to speed up the animation so it ends at the explosion and then put him into tumble, putting growth on the explosion. This way it kills him more readily at higher percents but wont be a suicide at 0

ZSS:
grabs too fast
They seem as safe as standing grabs and they grab jumps, makes her a little too safe

D tilt
Angle should be changed, the move is fast and gives a free uair 100% of the time. Cant DI it

uair
Um, OPed much? We have discussed this as you cant DI the move at all. Lower the angle to 70?

Sonic:
D smash less growth

With the faster speed I dont think that he should have the KO power that he has with it personally

DDD:
Faster weaker D smash
lower F throw angle

Easy stuff to do that can really assist his game

Wolf:
shine hits frame 6 and is invulnerable 4-6

Peach:
F smash randomness removed

Use up angled F smash for frying pan, down angled for tennis racket, and straight for golf club. Then give frying pan a bit more growth and tennis racket a bit less. This allows more strat to peach. (if possible)

Wall and ceiling techs
- These are slow as ****, you just stick to the ceilings

Floor techs and tech rolls
- Char specific

Sidesteps and rolls
- Working on some numbers. Thinking of making sidesteps from 90/10 to 70/30 and rolls from 90/10 to 80/20

Ledge stands, attacks, rolls, and jumps
All of these are really slow for the pace of the game, maybe a very slight speed up as the ledge can get really stupid.

 

[GHNeko]

I still say Mario uair should go back.

What the hell is wrong with MK side B? It's really unsafe on block and with its current hitlag settings. It can be SDI'd enough so that you can avoid the last hit which has the most KB and has enough lag to where you can't consistantly follow up with it.

And removing jump glide? Really?

Some of the sound changes you're proposing seem superflucious, more than normal at least. :/

Peach fthrow KO buff isnt around because she's beastly as is and doesn't need a straight up buff, and i know peach mains wont give a balanced trade off without *****ing at a trade off we give them.

EDIT: Also, what happened to that fair shield stun nerf we were supposed to give Peach but ****ed up by simply buffering her Fair?

 

[Magus420]

Angles on f-smashes are determined at the end of the charge animation, and Peach's f-smash item is pulled out at the very start of the move (frame 1?). I suppose you might be able to push when it's generated back a frame and add in conditionals of holding up and down and go from there, but you'd be making it near impossible to use the other 2 f-smashes on some control schemes.


EDIT:

Slightly more updated Full Set - (2009-09-07)
http://www.mediafire.com/?ywmjj21m1qj
http://shanemulliganphotography.blogsite.org:6111/~shane/NearGold/9-7-2009/


If you wish to add changes to a character please use the .pacs in this set as many of them have projectile data that I ported into them using a hex editor (don't want to do it a 2nd time).

Check the comprehensive additions list (in the zip) to see what is what is/isn't in here since the previous public nightly. This list here is just the differences from Sat morning.

The 2xxxxxxx spec off collision flag either gives it no hitlag or halves it or something. It doesn't mesh very well with the 0.60x hitlag code...


Additions/Changes from previous BR Set (2009-09-05):

Bowser
    Down-B:
        -Special offensive flags changed from 204FFFC0->004FFFC0

Falco
    Down-B:
        -Special offensive flags changed from 204FFFC3->004FFFC3

Ganondorf
    Jab:
        -9 damage hitbox reduced to 7. KBG compensated 105->135
        -SFX flag changed from xxxx02xx->xxxx24xx
        -Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->1.30x (9 dmg hitbox); 1.00x->1.20x (7 dmg hitbox)

Ike
    Up-B:
        -Special offensive flags changed from 204FFFC3->004FFFC3 (hits 2-3)

Kirby
    Neutral-B (Meta Knight):
        -Special offensive flags changed from 204FFFC3->004FFFC3 (hits 1,3,4); A04FFFC3->004FFFC3 (hit 2)
    Neutral-B (Zelda):
        -Angle changed from 10 to 170 on front hitboxes to send inward like rear hitboxes (Linking Hits)
        -Flags changed from xxx1xxxx->xxx3xxxx (hitboxes A-D)
        -Special offensive flags changed from 200FFFC3->000FFFC3 to fix non-existent hitlag
        -SDI Capacity Multiplier: 1.00x->0.80x

Lucas
    U-Air:
*Test*        -IASA: 46->40

Mario
    D-Tilt:
        -IASA: 35->25

Meta Knight
    {F/D-Smash hitlag down to default amount/1.70x}

Ness
    Side-B:
        -SDI Capacity Multiplier: 1.50x->0.80x (2 & 1 dmg hitboxes)

Peach
    Side-B:
*Test*  -KBG reduced by 8 and BKB by 4 from previous setting. New:[1x Size; 15 Dmg; 40->71 KBG; 50->20 BKB; 23°]; Old:[1x Size; 15 Dmg; 40->79 KBG; 50->24 BKB; 23°]

Yoshi
    Down-B:
        -Special offensive flags changed from 204FFFC3->004FFFC3

Zero Suit Samus
    D-Air:
        -2.5x speed for duration of hitboxes (frames 14-49)
        -Changed the final 5 frames (at new speed) of hitboxes to be flub hits and removed autocancel window

 

[Revven]

I had some thoughts for Wario:

The character is played exactly like he was in vBrawl and the strat is still really effective. This is just laughable for the same reasons as Snake's tilts were when Ally played him.

My fixes are as follows:
- Lower aerial mobility (similar to Mario's): Wario can already out camp most characters with his aerial mobility and his huge priority, the less mobility will force Wario to be a bit smarter about his moves and the high priority still makes him a wall to get through

- F smash has heavy armor instead of super armor: This allows you to grab the move and also combat it with other smashes and some tilts, but it should still go through weak moves. Possibly 10-12%

- Dair has minus 2 damage: One of the most used aerials with great priority and it does 16 O.O

- Uair has minus 2 damage: U throw uair is legit, does 17 damage with uair and kills early. 2 less damage without compensating KB shouldnt hurt Wario too much.

- D tilt and U tilt have less winddown: This allows Wario to have more of a ground game that will assist in bringing his playstyle out a bit more

To Mario's aerial mobility? Uh, Mario doesn't even have any mobility like Jiggly did. That'll hurt Wario way too much. You and I both agreed that lowering his aerial mobility isn't what the problem is right now, that all we'd need to do is fix Dair, Uair, and Fsmash. As those are his three most used moves (right after Nair). Nair also apparently does 13% when both hits connect.

I'm also thinking he doesn't need any compensation because of the fact that he is losing the ability to output 34% on two different combos. I'll have something cooked up for Wario possibly today (I hope).

 

[slikvik]

I had some thoughts for Wario:

The character is played exactly like he was in vBrawl and the strat is still really effective. This is just laughable for the same reasons as Snake's tilts were when Ally played him.

My fixes are as follows:
- Lower aerial mobility (similar to Mario's): Wario can already out camp most characters with his aerial mobility and his huge priority, the less mobility will force Wario to be a bit smarter about his moves and the high priority still makes him a wall to get through

- F smash has heavy armor instead of super armor: This allows you to grab the move and also combat it with other smashes and some tilts, but it should still go through weak moves. Possibly 10-12%

- Dair has minus 2 damage: One of the most used aerials with great priority and it does 16 O.O

- Uair has minus 2 damage: U throw uair is legit, does 17 damage with uair and kills early. 2 less damage without compensating KB shouldnt hurt Wario too much.

- D tilt and U tilt have less winddown: This allows Wario to have more of a ground game that will assist in bringing his playstyle out a bit more

I'm absolutely against changing warios mobility. I didn't even think Wario needed any changes. I think it would be a huge mistake to change the way he is controlled

I disagree with wario have high priority. He has to commit his entire body when he attacks and will either lose, trade, or preempt an attack. I don't see how that's equals high priority. The majority of his moveset has low priority with a couple exceptions like uair and ftilt. His evasiveness allows him to get around his lack of priority.

Why make fsmash weaker? You're talking about pretty much reducing the damage in half when wario has huge winddown on it. Heavy armor is fine, but leave the other properties of the move alone.

The other changes are fine

 

[JCaesar]

I agree that would be a pretty harsh nerf to Wario. His aerial mobility defines his character.

Did we already remove MK's grounded up-B invincibility? If not I think that's one of the most important nerfs he needs.

Edit: Vik, no one suggested making Wario's fsmash weaker, just giving it Heavy Armor.

 

[slikvik]

When I saw 10-12%, I assumed he was talking about the damage.

edit: yea, i realize that already

 

[JCaesar]

He's saying the heavy armor would work on moves up to that damage.

 

[Revven]

JC, Magus made it so MK's invinc on grounded Up B works like Marth's does, comes out the frame the hitbox comes out, so now on MK you have frames 1-7 to hit him and on frame 8 you can't hit him due to invinc and is when the hitbox comes out. So that was fixed, if you have any jab or projectile that's quick enough you should be able to stop MK's grounded shuttle loop now.

About Wario, I'm only going to do damage nerfs right now. If the SA proves to be a problem later on, we'll do the Heavy Armor idea.

 

[Revven]

Hey I got the damage nerfs done and I need people to test it for my knockback compensation. When I did the math for Dair, the KBG wound up being 360... which was obviously WAY too much so I set the KBG for each of the 4% hits to 210 and it seems alright, it doesn't kill Sonic until 200% or so without DI. Wario's Uair also had minus 2% on it, its original growth was 80 so now it should be 90 and it seems like it is fine but, I'm not 100% on it (which is why I need people to correct if anything is wrong). I also lowered Fsmash's damage down by 2% and compensated the KB which used to be 77 KBG and is now 86 KBG. Appears to KO like it used to.

Here's the .PAC: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ugdnlzgcadn

It has Magus's hitlag and whatever (as I took it from his set like he said) so there you go. If need be, correct the .PAC yourself I'm going to be busy all day today with homework.

I WAS gonna lower the damage down by 1% on Bite's throw hit (the end of it when he throws you as right now it does 5%) but it's WAY too confusing to figure out where the last hit is at (when he throws you out of his mouth) so if you feel you can figure it out, please lower it by 1% so it only does 4% instead of 5% (since it basically ruins a lot of approach options and such).

 

[The Cape]

What about all the DJC stuff? Should we remove it from Ness and put it on Yoshi?

The Wario mobility is what makes him able to play his vBrawl strat which is much more effective in this game. Its on the same level as Snake tilts as its laughable to the project and the gay playstyle of the top three can still be played in the exact same way as before. A bit less aerial mobility would be a good thing for Wario and then the D and U tilt changes as compensation so that his moveset opens up more.

The heavy armor on F smash could be 20% for all I care, but it allows you to grab him out of the move and actually relatively stop it. Wario's blatantly overpowered sidestep (also needs fixed) into F smash or bite is just ridiculous and leads back to the sheer stupidity of his vBrawl playstyle.

Are we going to fix sidesteps for this next set?

 

[The Cape]

Double post

 

[JCaesar]

I think if we fix sidesteps and airdodges, that alone will reduce the effectiveness of Wario's camping. I don't like the idea of reducing his aerial maneuverability, it is one of his defining characteristics.