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Gold Characters
- Thread starter The Cape
- Start date
Revven
FrankerZ
Agreed. I think that because of how strong his aerial mobility is, his AD and spot dodge should take hard hits. His spot dodge especially, personally, I'd like to see 15-20 vulnerability frames on his spot dodge, remove the IASA, and slow down the wind-down of the spot dodge. He doesn't need a good spot dodge. As for his AD, it should have probably a lot more vulnerability. Looking at Magus's change to Wario's AD his invinc starts on 4 and ends on 21, his AD is 39 frames so this leaves him vulnerable for 18 frames. That's a pretty hard hit I believe, I think we'll have to see how this goes ALONG WITH the damage nerfs I gave him.
However, if need be, I'd like to see 20 frames of vulnerability on his AD just because of the way he uses it is far different from other characters. I will however wait and see how the 18 frames goes in the long run. I did play with it this weekend and tbh, it doesn't seem to make him any more punishable than before when he fakes you out with an AD. So... he might need 20 frames of vulnerability.
If it's added to yoshi, can we make Dair less stupid with that massive amount of ALR?
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Wario's dodge should be treated like everyone else. He was 'blessed' with a good dodge and like everyone elses dodges we'll be bringing them into line so they aren't so hard to punish and so easy to spam.
Veril
Frame Savant
Luigi and Jigglypuff are not gold. Samus has issues which you have not posted here.
You all already know the issues with Luigi and some of you are aware of the research supporting my assertions. Luigi is hitstun resistant. This is a fact. His floatiness exacerbates the problem, but it is NOT the reason behind it. Luigi suffers substantially less hitstun than most of the other floaty characters. MK and GW come to mind. The amount of hitstun Luigi suffers would be expected for a fast faller, not quite Falcon, but very close. This IS a problem as the campy playstyle we dislike so much is really reinforced by reduced hitstun. When/if we are able to tweek Luigi's hitstun, we must.
Jigglypuff is very close... sing is still a problem. There are a lot of possible fixes (extend the hitbox durations, decrease the end lag), none of which have been even tried from what I know.
Samus's up-smash can be punished mid move, sometimes even without DI. Its basically a terrible vBrawl move.
You all already know the issues with Luigi and some of you are aware of the research supporting my assertions. Luigi is hitstun resistant. This is a fact. His floatiness exacerbates the problem, but it is NOT the reason behind it. Luigi suffers substantially less hitstun than most of the other floaty characters. MK and GW come to mind. The amount of hitstun Luigi suffers would be expected for a fast faller, not quite Falcon, but very close. This IS a problem as the campy playstyle we dislike so much is really reinforced by reduced hitstun. When/if we are able to tweek Luigi's hitstun, we must.
Jigglypuff is very close... sing is still a problem. There are a lot of possible fixes (extend the hitbox durations, decrease the end lag), none of which have been even tried from what I know.
Samus's up-smash can be punished mid move, sometimes even without DI. Its basically a terrible vBrawl move.
Revven
FrankerZ
Could someone PLEASE try out my Wario damage nerfs? Quite possibly change the 14% Dair to 12% and change Uair's damage from 15% to 14%? I can't do anything more this week to him due to school.
slikvik
Smash Master
Yea, Olimars really good
JCaesar
Smash Hero
There's no doubt in my mind that Oli is top 5. I kinda wish AndyG had kept playing so there would be definitive evidence to nerf him.
If you wanna throw some nerfs at him anyway I would not be opposed. Maybe higher BKB on dthrow, lower KBG on usmash, less damage on side-B, something like that. I'm not sure that addresses the core problem (excellent camping ability and impossible to safely approach) but unless we can fix his pivot grab, it's a start.
If you wanna throw some nerfs at him anyway I would not be opposed. Maybe higher BKB on dthrow, lower KBG on usmash, less damage on side-B, something like that. I'm not sure that addresses the core problem (excellent camping ability and impossible to safely approach) but unless we can fix his pivot grab, it's a start.
The Cape
Smash Master
We need to fix his Pikmin ghosting bug before he becomes a real issue.
I'm surprised you dont already consider him one. <_>
Characters that dont get alot of attention are the ones that will cause trouble later on. ie see how long it took us to nerf wario, and all we had to do was look at the guy and see something's off.
Characters that dont get alot of attention are the ones that will cause trouble later on. ie see how long it took us to nerf wario, and all we had to do was look at the guy and see something's off.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
The fact you find snakes tilt spam and olimar's problems to not be in the same boat makes me facepalm.
Olimar has a large moveset that is safe on whiff/block and easy to spam. I still feel his terribad recovery and awful weight at least prevent him from being OP though.
Revven
FrankerZ
I agree to nerfing Olimar's damage output.
He might not be OP'd but I'll rage if he's left as is.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Do you believe Olimar is good enough to just get damage nerfs and get nothing in return or does he need a slight retoling?
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
I feel like a lot of you know nothing on olimar so let me fix some things:
First off, olimars counterpicks got a lot more dangerous (marth, peach, kirby, etc). They have significantly more manueverability and ability to swat away his pikmin than ever before. He already had very strong CPs in vB, and now they are even better.
Olimars throws have significantly more variety, and in some cases worse due to higher gravity. Downthrow no longer is a guaranteed usmash like it was at low % in vBrawl due to increased gravity. For mid-weights, this means that olimar cant follow up with an upsmash with either a uthrow or dthrow which is actually a nerf to his throw game.
For those he can combo with, it can be quite strong. However he himself is subject to more combos as his priority is not great and now he can be combo'd offstage as well leading to more gimps as well.
So why does he need his damage output lowered? What matchups does this effect and what purpose does it serve aside from changing a character you don't like?
Also, using AndyG as an example of why to nerf olimar is like using Ally to nerf snake. AndyG was better than (and consistently places better) than just about everyone at BtL. Same with Ally when he was at SNES (canada players say they beat him all the time in B+ with his snake). We shouldn't judge how to nerf a character exactly based off the opinion that worse players lost to better players.
So yeah, dish out the proof pleas because right now I'm getting a bull**** alert.
First off, olimars counterpicks got a lot more dangerous (marth, peach, kirby, etc). They have significantly more manueverability and ability to swat away his pikmin than ever before. He already had very strong CPs in vB, and now they are even better.
Olimars throws have significantly more variety, and in some cases worse due to higher gravity. Downthrow no longer is a guaranteed usmash like it was at low % in vBrawl due to increased gravity. For mid-weights, this means that olimar cant follow up with an upsmash with either a uthrow or dthrow which is actually a nerf to his throw game.
For those he can combo with, it can be quite strong. However he himself is subject to more combos as his priority is not great and now he can be combo'd offstage as well leading to more gimps as well.
So why does he need his damage output lowered? What matchups does this effect and what purpose does it serve aside from changing a character you don't like?
Also, using AndyG as an example of why to nerf olimar is like using Ally to nerf snake. AndyG was better than (and consistently places better) than just about everyone at BtL. Same with Ally when he was at SNES (canada players say they beat him all the time in B+ with his snake). We shouldn't judge how to nerf a character exactly based off the opinion that worse players lost to better players.
So yeah, dish out the proof pleas because right now I'm getting a bull**** alert.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
The little prolimar I play I find that he either dominates (like pro sports team vs a high school team dominates) a chunk of the cast but then he also gets a reverse treatment against his counterpicks. He just goes one way or the other.
Either way, though he has a lot of safe or easy to spam moves I really don't think he is overpowered in any way. If anything he might need a damage nerf on u-air but even that is highly debatable.
Either way, though he has a lot of safe or easy to spam moves I really don't think he is overpowered in any way. If anything he might need a damage nerf on u-air but even that is highly debatable.
I would like to experiment improving Olimar's recovery in expense of making his onstage game less ridiculously potent against his great match-ups. His matches being so heavily skewed, if they are, is something we would consider problematic.
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
Its hard because the matchups which are skewed are largely due to his pikmin priority, which cannot be editted unless magus pulls off complicated magic on his pikmins
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
So whats been going on with the latest Sonic pac? I haven't kept up with anything Brawl+ related, mainly for school and currently sick with an ulcer.
Were the changes I made ever implemented into the official pac? I also heard some other universal attributes were being tweaked so if I wanted to put my changes in I guess It'd be best to work with the most recent pac. I dropped the link to the BRset so it'd be nice if I could get that as well.
Were the changes I made ever implemented into the official pac? I also heard some other universal attributes were being tweaked so if I wanted to put my changes in I guess It'd be best to work with the most recent pac. I dropped the link to the BRset so it'd be nice if I could get that as well.
The Cape
Smash Master
I completely agree with Shanus that Olimar is good as is.
He also gained a few bad matchups in plus: Mario, Yoshi, Wario to add to his already expansive list.
Olimar is one of those characters that you have to learn the matchup to fight again, you cant fight him like any other character, which is what makes him not broken. I was one of the first ones to talk about a nerf to Olimar in plus until I learned the matchup and realized that he is just annoying to fight and has nothing broken. Kind of like Snake is now, he is annoying to fight with his wall of **** but not broken with his stupid tilt range from vBrawl.
He also gained a few bad matchups in plus: Mario, Yoshi, Wario to add to his already expansive list.
Olimar is one of those characters that you have to learn the matchup to fight again, you cant fight him like any other character, which is what makes him not broken. I was one of the first ones to talk about a nerf to Olimar in plus until I learned the matchup and realized that he is just annoying to fight and has nothing broken. Kind of like Snake is now, he is annoying to fight with his wall of **** but not broken with his stupid tilt range from vBrawl.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Viet I tried your ROB utilt. Muuuuch better than the current one. It doesn't lock anyone even at 0. I still wanna test it a bit more in real matches but I love it so far.