"Gold" character listing and discussion

[5ive]

I agree about ness and lucas. You might consider including a fixed version of FD without the top-tier ledge in your final release, though.

I'd strongly support the fixed ledges on FD. Has anyone tried this out? Is Diddy still ****ed by the fixed ledges?

 

[[TSON]]

The "fixed ledges" FD actually has walljumpable walls instead of no walljump. So you can walljump off of the top of the lip o.o.

But if you fixed that, it'd be fine with me.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Diddy is the only one who still ****s up on the ledge. Luc and Ike work good enough.

 

[Glick]

You clearly haven't played my Wolf

I have




Wolf is probably tied with falco imo.
I don't know where the hell fox is.

 

[Veril]

I do suggest that you at least try tweaking Lucas because that is basically my main turnoff from using him over Ness at this point.

Lucas has the most technical recovery in the game. It is also the least forgiving of mistakes. Basically you have to practice with it a lot, but there are a ton of options available. I'm trying to relearn him now and I can see that with enough work PKT2 suicides aren't really an issue.

 

[Blinds]

Zelda
I played around a bit with Nayru's the other day, and probably the "best" fix I came up with for it was to have the outside 4 hitboxes have the ground only flag, while having windboxes on the outside with the air only flag (either 2 larger ones or 4 in the same locations as the ground hitboxes), and the center hitbox with the ground+air flag.

This has it so it still pulls aerial opponents towards the center of the move to then be hit, while not hitting and triggering living projectiles like bombs/nades before they get reflected. A side effect of the windboxes on those types of projectiles is that they can get a significant speed boost when reflected, but at the cost of some damage and range against aerial opponents.

There's normally 5 hitboxes lined up horizontally, with 4 on the outside and one in the center ontop of Zelda. I think the 'part' that actually reflects is probably just Zelda herself (hurtboxes), and I'm guessing RA-Bit[17]=true makes it so they reflect when hit kind of like when you're wearing a franklin badge or something. There doesn't seem to be a separate reflective collision from what I could tell.

So, I've been thinking about this further, and my potential problem with this is it's a nerf to Nayru's ability to deal with characters in the air, severely hurting the aerial version of Nayru's. I understand that that's what the windboxes are for, but is the central hitbox big enough to not be out prioritized by many aerial approaches?

Also, Pit's Side-B is a very similar working move, with the hitboxes not interfering with it's ability to reflect... couldn't a simpler solution be found there?

 

[5ive]

Everyone check the ROB thread.

Montreal is really pissing me off. They act like their players are the top of each characters metagame. They use Holy/Ally as a marker for broken-ness.

Anyways, on personal experience, Holy would be the most credible critic on ROB.

1: His spotdodge is pretty much the same as everyone else in the game.

2: Everyone has a grab that combo into something wtf Zaf, beside dthrow to "insert attack here" only really works well vs Fast fallers.

3: ROB was never really buffed, his only buffs are sideb and upthrow. His recovery is pretty nerfed imo so it's balance it out.

4:I don't deny ROB is a very good character, I say he's easily top 10 but I haven't really proved it outside of my own region so far lol. Don't forget Zaf that ROB is my main in Brawl and most of it carried on, I'm much more skilled in vBrawl than most of the people in my region not to brag but it's true. I've played wifi a bit too much

 

[Glick]

Yeah. Rob is the last one to warrant a nerf. for sure... lol

Weren't we talking about fixing bowsers ledge grab range?

It's by far the worst in the game. I'm not sure why his is so bad. Anybody else see a problem with this?
It's even worse since his recovery is horizontal.

 

[Veril]

I fear no Rob. He has plenty of soft-counters (Jiggs and MK for example) and only really hard counters the ICs imo. He isn't like Lucario who actually has the potential to make the characters non-viable if he can CG up to high% than up-throw to fair WoP. Holy and Ally can **** their region all day and it won't reflect anything other than the massive skill difference between them and the rest of Montreal.

yeah, Bowser's ledgegrab range is terrible. Cape and I agree that its a problem. Glad to see someone else bring it up though.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Yeah, I've made absolutely no progress with Diddy's ******** upB. It just makes no sense.

@Veril: About what you said last page. I don't think upB is NEEDED to recover....in vBrawl, Diddy really didn't NEED it either, but it was 10x less risky due to ASL (And also floatiness), so you wouldn't even need to jump to get back. In B+, with increased grav and a **** upB, he won't be able to get close enough horizontally to the ledge in time to recover with JUST regular sideB or upB, but that's why flip kick is actually universally useful. Flip kick gives him even more horizontal distance AND outprioritizes a ****load of moves on its own. Really, you're rolling the dice with this sort of thing, but really, when AREN'T you when you recover with him? =/ Especially when they're waiting/about to gimp you. From what I can tell, sideB or flip kick is the first thing you do regardless of position, cept when you're closest to death.

Only thing I really hate (besides glitch) is how his recovery just sets him up to be above the enemy, where he's most vulnerable to amazingly stoopid tactics.

 

[Plum]

So all that ROB talk was just... yeah.

But what do people think about Charizard talk?
I would agree that he's probably the weakest of the Trainer's Pokemon but I do think that he's still fine.
However it seems that every post in the Charizard thread is just about he's bad. I don't really see it... but what about everyone else here?

Also, even if Charizard could be helped, there's also the fact that Pokemon Trainer himself doesn't need help, and that buffing the single Charizard is also buffing a character who is already fine.

 

[Glick]

To be honest. After squirtle lost his fair, he really lost any chance at being top 5.
He's not that good TBH
Can't really wop like he used to, can't really kill with fair out of combos like he used to.

I'd say he's at the same level as sheik. who is arguably high mid tier.

He might still be the best out of the three pokemon, but not by much.

 

[JCaesar]

^ agreed

 

[Veril]

We aren't giving squirtle back his fair.

Zard's d-smash should combo if the change made to it was intended to allow it to combo. Right now it doesn't combo (beyond a few pitiful setups on FFers), kill, do a respectable amount of damage, or serve any purpose at all. It isn't especially easy to land either. I actually took the time to look into the move and MAN DOES IT SUCK.

we should do something about that.

 

[leafgreen386]

Were the characters that were given chargeable B moves in brawl (ie. lucario, mario, etc) ever fixed so that they don't AD if they tap shield to cancel it in the air? If not, and if it's still on the table, I have a really easy fix for that.

 

[Veril]

Lucario soooo is not getting that. I think it would be okay for literally anyone except Lucario.

 

[GHNeko]

And what ever happen to making Fast-fallable neutral B moves FF-able properties rather than keeping it exclusive to Falco?

 

[leafgreen386]

Lucario soooo is not getting that. I think it would be okay for literally anyone except Lucario.

...why? His neutral B is chargeable the same way any other character's is. Seems like a bit of a double-standard to give it to everyone except him just because he's already a good character, especially when other good characters that have charge moves can cancel normally in the air without ADing >_>

edit: Here's a mario pac to test. You should now have one frame to release the shield button on downB cancel or else it will go into airdodge. It's otherwise the same as the 6.0 mario.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KCF2D661

edit2: Updated link as I forgot to add a bit clear. If anyone is wondering what I did, I placed a set LA-bit[399] at the top of action 117 (downB charge), then placed a change action at the top of subaction 46 (airdodge) to change to action E (fall) when LA-bit[399] is set. In subaction 20 (fall), I placed a synchronous timer of 1 frame followed by a bit clear for LA-bit[399]. The bit clear I forgot to put in was in subaction 0 (wait1), which was placed without any other timers or anything to also clear it if he lands without spending at least one frame in fall (ie. instantly aerialing out of the cancel and then landing afterward). It might also be necessary to place the bit clear in each of the damage animations, as well, for if he's hit out of an instant aerial after a cancel.

 

[JCaesar]

Were the characters that were given chargeable B moves in brawl (ie. lucario, mario, etc) ever fixed so that they don't AD if they tap shield to cancel it in the air? If not, and if it's still on the table, I have a really easy fix for that.

I wouldn't want ROB to have it. It would essentially remove a neat little AT (gyro-canceling) and it would be an unnecessary buff.

No EZ mode plzkthxbai

 

[shanus]

And what ever happen to making Fast-fallable neutral B moves FF-able properties rather than keeping it exclusive to Falco?

Because its a royal PITA to code and no1 has found the requirement yet for "Is falling"

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I wouldn't want ROB to have it. It would essentially remove a neat little AT (gyro-canceling) and it would be an unnecessary buff.

No EZ mode plzkthxbai

How is it easy mode? Rofl, all it would do is give you the chance to stop the charge without forcing AD. That doesn't make anything easier, nor does it make anything harder.

 

[JCaesar]

It makes it easier for ROB, since ROB has an AT that lets him stop charging without ADing. I don't particularly want to see that removed so he can just do it whenever.

I don't really care about the other characters. Actually, I think it would be better if they all just had the equivalent of ROB's gyro-cancel AT. Also, giving Lucario the ability to stop charging at any time in the air without forcing an AD would make his camping even more potent. What's good about gyro-canceling is that it doesn't actually charge the projectile by any noticeable amount (so it doesn't improve camping), it just gives him the ability to change direction and momentum in the air very quickly, which I think is neat for any character.

 

[goodoldganon]

DK can press shield in the air while charging his punch and not air dodge. He has to do it on certain swings and certains points in the rotation. Once you figure it out it isn't hard to do on demand. Do other characters follow that rule?

 

[Veril]

I don't really care about the other characters. Actually, I think it would be better if they all just had the equivalent of ROB's gyro-cancel AT. Also, giving Lucario the ability to stop charging at any time in the air without forcing an AD would make his camping even more potent. What's good about gyro-canceling is that it doesn't actually charge the projectile by any noticeable amount (so it doesn't improve camping), it just gives him the ability to change direction and momentum in the air very quickly, which I think is neat for any character.

And this is why the change is not going to happen.

Well put sir.

I don't own any suitable hats for this but... I will buy a hat and eat it if we buff Lucario (or Rob).

 

[shanus]

I wnat to sneak in a change just to get a video of you eating a hat

 

[VietGeek]

i agree veril needs to eat a hat

its a great way to promote brawl+ and humanize urself to the rest of the community

 

[leafgreen386]

I concur.

On topic: Alright. Just figured I'd throw it out there since I know it was being talked about before.

 

[Glick]

I wasn't saying give squirtle back his fair >.>
Isn't mid tier what we're aiming for here?


Veril I haven't gotten a copy of the gold jiggz .pac (I think vanz has it) but I really hope you did testing so it isn't too low and not too high either.

If you haven't gotten around to it, I can try to test (I kind of fail though)

 

[GuruKid]

Squirtle's fair nerf was warranted. Makes him not ********, which is a good thing. He can still kick arse, but it takes some more thinking to do so, instead of just walling fairs and bairs.



Regarding Dsmash on Charizard... you can buff Dsmash as you'd like; it still won't address Charizard's bigger issue, which I've addressed several times already. There's absolutely no reason to use such an unsafe move when Charizard has less risky and overall better options on the ground.

Dsmash hit on around frame 15 if I remember correctly, hibox is only on the ground (B+ is an aerial-centric game), and you're left open for a considerable amount afterward.

Opponent in front of you? Grab, grab, Fair, ftilt, jab, Boulder Smash (cuz that **** ain't no little rock).
Suspect a roll? Bust out that boulder again. If the initial hit doesn't land, one of the 9 rock shards will.

Case in point: Unless Dsmash is getting D3's ol' Fsmash "Earthquake" status, don't bother with it, because "fixing" that move won't fix his inherent problem at all.



Side note: I love Ivysaur more and more each time I use her. Olimars watch out: Ivy is gonna be the new definition of walling .

 

[Veril]

"A wild gurukid appears"

The idea isn't to really buff charizard so much as to avoid having changed the d-smash into the worthless crap it is atm. If d-smash doesn't combo into anything when it was changed originally so that it would do so... that's sloppy but not an especially difficult fix.

Side note: I love Ivysaur more and more each time I use her. Olimars watch out: Ivy is a b**** .

fixed

**** yo' bair

 

[VietGeek]

man i hate it when the japanese and their tentacle fetish gets in the way of me enjoying my gaemz

i'm gonna look at falco's .pac and see if i can do anything about laser sfx and the annoying green hue on falco when he's about to grab the reflector (starts after the normal green hue ends) that came about from the frame speed mod.

will probably edit this post

 

[Veril]

that would be awesome!

the laser sfx is sloppy atm

 

[VietGeek]

Eh, I'll just put the updates here:

Laser SFX:

This was tricky at first; the trick here is to make it so the SFX comes before you land and the projectile comes outs but not before the window where you land on the same frame as the laser (which cancels the laser, but if you change the timer to also call the SFX on this frame then you get a laser SFX with no laser).

So...I tried decimals. 2.5 frames seemed to work well. It may have been the fact that my room's TV only has Mono, but I may have shot a few silent lasers.

If so, we could change the timer to 2.25 frames, etc. until we get that "happy medium"

To reiterate: In Sub-Action ID2, change the frame timer from 3 to 2.5.

For Fox you may just want to move the timer from 4 to 3. Same Sub-Action as Falco's

Now the Reflector. I just got lazy and got rid of all the flash overlay stuff. I don't know how Cape programmed the frame modifiers so I was too lazy to try to just address the graphic issue and just killed Falco glowing altogether.

Here's a picture of what to remove from the offset:

 

[GuruKid]

So... the only buff Charizard will be receiving is a Dsmash buff?

**** yo' bair

**** yo' uair

*Throws Master Ball*

 

[Veril]

So... the only buff Charizard will be receiving is a Dsmash buff?

Well, the extra jump got voted down. Charizard is the weakest PT character, but he's still much much better than anyone in "Olympic tier". The fix for FD's ledges and the boundary adjustments both help Zard.

I'd like to speak with you about this at some point in person. I'm on break, get at me ;p

**** yo' uair

*Throws Master Ball*

"is captured"

 

[omegablackmage]

i thought we voted in making zard's up b di'able?

 

[Glick]

i thought we voted in making zard's up b di'able?

This.

10char

 

[omegablackmage]

seriously, it wouldn't make charizard thaaat much better, it would just make him less frustrating to play. The fixed edge on fd doesn't make his up b less infuriating to use, because if your directly under the ledge with no jumps... you lose. It really isn't a massive buff at all.

 

[Veril]

That wasn't intentionally left out. ;p

I personally don't know how to go about coding that though. I mean, Blind got rid of the infinite and I've got a clever idea about the d-smash to mess with, but a DIable up-b... help?

 

[shanus]

I don't know how to do it without a ghetto method. It seems to be more or less hard coded.