Goals of the Smashlab and Specific Projects. Wip

[T-block]

The BBR is foolish not to endorse a LGL.

The game literally cannot function if MK (and possibly also Pikachu) are allowed infinite ledge grabs. The LGL does work for removing the LITERALLY unbeatable tactic of perfect planking.

MK timing out people is not what the LGL is meant to remove. MK can time people out without it, but the only 100% proven (by me at least) unbeatable tactic is ledge-dropping into upair and regrabbing before the opponent can set up a spacing/projectile frame trap that could hit MK offstage. With a LGL MK must space out his regrabs to the ledge and keep track of them. This means that desychned ice-blocks, explosives, multi-hit and sex kick aerials, etc can all pressure MK and force him to select an option to return to the stage. He doesn't have infinite jumps. If you want to argue frame data on his recovery options I'm open to that, I'll just need some time to **** whatever argument gets thrown at me.

Fair enough.

The point is, though, that it affects other matchups (making it very hard on ROB in ROB vs. Dedede was one instance that was brought up), and the LGL is a win criteria that is not a part of the Smash concept. I mean, I guess you could just tell ROB to deal with it, but that's not a mindset shared by a lot of people - especially when MK has other ways to time out.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

You're right: whining shouldn't affect our recommendations too much. But I just don't want any part of the boards (cough, General Brawl Discussion), to degenerate even further. Right now it's polluted with "why even play this character/tier?", "the tier lists are dumb", "i discuvrd a rly kool at", and other such painfully stupid threads. Reading GBD is like eating a bowl of nails as if it was a bowl of cereal. I really don't want to see it get any worse.

Nonetheless, I am all for a LGL, I am all for banning unbeatable planking, and I do wish to see the SBR actually take proactive steps to stop the further degradation of the metagame into something centered on finding ways to deal with perfect planking. Perhaps it isn't at that point yet, but I can see it happening very easily.

 

[Veril]

Fair enough.

The point is, though, that it affects other matchups (making it very hard on ROB in ROB vs. Dedede was one instance that was brought up), and the LGL is a win criteria that is not a part of the Smash concept. I mean, I guess you could just tell ROB to deal with it, but that's not a mindset shared by a lot of people - especially when MK has other ways to time out.

We haven't established that Rob doesn't have any planking options. He is one of the characters I believe is worth looking into as his ledge-options are extremely good. Rob is a terrible character to cite when arguing against LGL. Also Rob sucks and nobody should play him. Clearly. Why's he even in this game? Nobody knows. Ban Rob.

General Brawl Discussion

Don't go there. GBD is the mindkiller.

I actually made a blog long ago which made a similar analogy to your "nail cereal" except I used "glass-filled hot pocket".

take proactive steps to stop the further degradation of the metagame into something centered on finding ways to deal with perfect planking. Perhaps it isn't at that point yet, but I can see it happening very easily.

Except the community and MLG already moved on and the SBR is the one which needs to catch up. The metagame takes into account LGLs at this point. TOs almost always have a LGL and as such perfect planking is not an issue for the metagame that the community has to deal with. Stalling... yes. Perfect planking... no. Besides, there's no way to deal with it so any attempt to do so would be doomed to failure.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

We haven't established that Rob doesn't have any planking options. He is one of the characters I believe is worth looking into as his ledge-options are extremely good. Rob is a terrible character to cite when arguing against LGL. Also Rob sucks and nobody should play him. Clearly. Why's he even in this game? Nobody knows. Ban Rob.



Don't go there. GBD is the mindkiller.

I actually made a blog long ago which made a similar analogy to your "nail cereal" except I used "glass-filled hot pocket".



Except the community and MLG already moved on and the SBR is the one which needs to catch up. The metagame takes into account LGLs at this point. TOs almost always have a LGL and as such perfect planking is not an issue for the metagame that the community has to deal with. Stalling... yes. Perfect planking... no. Besides, there's no way to deal with it so any attempt to do so would be doomed to failure.

*sigh*

I guess you have a point there. Most attempts to clean up GBD would fail miserabley, but I still would love to see it almost happen.

And what I was initially argueing for was just for the SBR to get with the program and go with a LGL. And ROB does have good planking, but it seems to me that it's underrated. I remember a thread back in '08 that was about experimenting with projectile planking with ROB, specifically with his laser, but it pretty much just got shot down because it was being presented more like a "finding". And now that I think about it, that thread also said GBD was full of crap threads even back then, so...

Regardless, the state of GBD makes me sad and longing for a fix up.

Spoiler

Which is why I asked myself when I first saw the Lab, "Why the hell is this a GBD subforum and not a Tactical one?"

 

[KayLo!]

Spoiler

Which is why I asked myself when I first saw the Lab, "Why the hell is this a GBD subforum and not a Tactical one?"

Same. I really don't understand why we're under GBD when we're cleaaaaarly more focused around tactical Brawl talk, both literally and in the sense that we're not ******** like most of GBD is.

I might bring this up with the admin, actually, if enough people care where the subforum's located. (Don't know if it's even possible to move the entire forum, but I don't see why it wouldn't be.)

 

[Indigo Jeans]

My main reasoning for not talking about it to the higher powers is

"Does it matter?"

I only think that it should be a Tactical subforum because, well, we discuss the tactical aspects of the game here. Though, seeing as it IS a private subforum, i.e., only those in the appropriate usergroup can actually see it listed, I don't think it really matters all that much. Except maybe the shame that flows over to us because of the current GBD.

 

[Veril]

Our secret science clubhouse is safe from the fail that is GBD.

OMG Class ***** me today. ;_;

 

[Indigo Jeans]

You taking extra classes?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Veril, I agree that a LGL should be implemented, as soon as I saw DMG's data I realized the implications.


That said, there's a very common concern that it's an ineffectual ban, especially when you consider the existence of scrooging.


This has resulted in a very significant movement that's premise is, "if MK's not banworthy, we shouldn't have to make surgical changes to the character", which actually includes a good number of ex-anti-bans.



Generally, I'd agree, except that planking fails the Dan test (I concept of mine, where, I take the worst character in the game, if the tactic would be as effective with them if they could perform it as effectively, then it's the tactic that's banworthy and not the character).



Also, melee has planking, but it's less powerful then in Brawl, and no form is invincible effectively, even though a number has full invincibility frames. For example, the up-b is very vulnerable to ledgesteal->stand-up when the explosion happens because of the exactness of the timing.

 

[Veril]

Yes, the ledge mechanics in melee were nowhere near as conducive to infinite stalls. Cape told me you can wavedash ledgehog against the up-b spam. I'll take his word for it, he's the melee expert...

w/e Brawl's ledge's are bad. I mean, they appear to have done pretty sloppy balancing since they clearly took the possibility of planking into account when they compensated for Pikachu but just did it poorly (not as bad as with MK omg at least they tried). They should definitely not have allowed dimensional cape to autosweetspot and ledge invulnerability in general is crazily high.


Planking makes 100% of the cast non-viable. No offense, Adumbrodeus, but the SBR "no limits MK" position is insane. Also very disingenuous on the part of pro-ban. Planking MK is obviously bannable, while non-planking MK is not. >.< "Unlimited MK cause he's not banned" is a clearly stupid position no non-idiot should take. The sane positions I can see people taking are pro-ban (w/ lgl), pro-ban (w/o lgl), and antiban (w/ lgl + glide limits).

About the dan test: it is not really based in reality at all, since the tools needed to plank would automatically make ganon infinitely better than he is now (ie, MK's nair, upair, glide, and dimensional cape... lol mental image). But yes, Ganon with those tools would be unbeatable. Silly ;p A better measure would be "is this strategy 10x better than any other strategy" (ala Sirlin). It is. Clearly. What more is there to argue about. Sirlin... it meets the most widely accepted strict ban criteria and there is a simple way to limit it on any stage (LGL + glide limits) except smashville (where another rule is needed).

A LGL for MK is needed (possibly for a handful of other characters). MLG and TOs everywhere recognize it as do I, DMG, and I assume everyone in here as well as a sizable contingent of the SBR (I hope...). Top frame experts + MLG + the community; its possible we're on to something. Other characters may turn out to need an LGL as well. MK's gotten a lot of attention but Pikachu has a very nearly, if not completely frame safe planking technique. Several up-bs need to be looked at. GW needs to be evaluated more thoroughly. Marth as well. Almost forgot the ICS. They have a glitch that gives nana like a whole ****ing 2 seconds of invincibility. I gotta check them.

I used to think that it was possible that only MK had unbeatable planking. MK may have the only set of perfect planking unbeatable by himself, Snake, and/or ICs. Pikachu/GW/etc may all have extremely effective planking.

This brings us to the second point: Planking will probably end up being between one of, if not the best strategies for 1 to 5 characters. Advantage is always to the person ledgestalling, and in the case of MK (at least) this strategy has no counter. When this strategy does have a counter, its not a guaranteed counter, and counter-counter strategies are fairly easy to develop. The reason people haven't imo is that there is a rule to prevent this, at pretty much every event.

Is this a valid restriction of the metagame? In the case of restricting MK, absolutely. With most other characters: probably. A game focused on timing a person out in a manner completely uninteresting to watch or take part in... people don't want to play super planking bros.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Lol, Veril, you're taking my example just a bit too literally.


I'm looking at it terms of effect, and what is planking really? An infinite stall.

Would an infinite stall technique on Ganondorf be banworthy? Hell yea.




Furthermore, I think you're missing the point of the people who oppose just limiting MK. Most of them would take this information (that planking renders the game unplayable) as direct evidence that MK needs a ban as soon as possible.


That said, the strongest counter to that is probably proving other character's planking is as detrimental.



Now, I'm not saying that this is the OVERALL position of the BBR. But it is the position of enough members of the BBR to prevent the majority required to implement a LGL since all BBR rules require a 2/3rds majority.

As of right now, the BBR simply does not recommend it, and has taken no official position beyond that.



Frankly, I'm pushing for one, and showing that there are other characters with effectively unbeatable planking in a number of MUs would give me significant ammunition in that discussion.

 

[Pikabunz]

I don't think perfect planking makes you 100% safe. The maximum amount of IF's you can get after leaving the ledge is 21 frames and after leaving the ledge you have to wait 30 frames before you can grab the ledge again. That leaves you with 9 frames of vulnerability every time and that's only if you can plank perfectly.

 

[Veril]

I don't think perfect planking makes you 100% safe. The maximum amount of IF's you can get after leaving the ledge is 21 frames and after leaving the ledge you have to wait 30 frames before you can grab the ledge again. That leaves you with 9 frames of vulnerability every time and that's only if you can plank perfectly.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10618390&postcount=118

 

[GimR]

Ness is the only character that has a frame trap on MK if he tries to ledge camp

 

[Pikabunz]

Ah I get it now. I was kinda misinformed about the definition of perfect planking. I still don't think MK's planking is 100% unbeatable. More like 99%. At least I think Pikachu may be able to beat it. But still, that's just one character.

 

[Pikabunz]

I made this simple damage calculator that calculates damage from stale moves. I'm a pretty noob programmer right now, but I want you guys to test it to see if it's accurate and not buggy. There is one bug I couldn't fix, but it doesn't affect the calculations much. Sometimes it will show numbers as something like 0.45999 instead of 0.46.

This should be pretty self explanatory. Enter the base damage of your move then click stale to add that move to the stale queue. It will then show the exact damage of that move with that attack in the stale queue. Hitting refresh will refresh that move one level and then show the damage for it. The reset button will reset the move to 105% power.

http://megaswf.com/serve/20393/

The formula I used came from this thread and it should explain more on how the stale system works.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210557

 

[Isatis]

If you're using actionscript then: value=int((x)*100)/100; (where x is what number you want to round up)

 

[EverAlert]

I wrote something similar a while ago if any of you want to check/compare.

http://smash.everalert.net/brawl/tools/stale.php

Only accurate to 2 decimal places, easily changed though.

 

[Remzi]

I'm sure this has been analyzed already, but if a character inputs an aerial on the last frame of his/her jump (i.e frame 5 for Marth or frame 4 for Samus), the aerial does not come out.

If a fair is inputted on this frame, the character jumps forward. If a bair is inputted on this frame, the character jumps backwards. Uair, nair, and dair have no affect on the jump.

Such a stupid mechanic.... i know this forum isn't supposed to be for actually talking about us getting better as players, but this is really hurting my game. Anyone know how to avoid this? Every once in a while my thumb gets to the c-stick a bit slow and the aerial doesn't come out as a result. Soooo gay >_>

 

[Pikabunz]

You just gotta be faster with those inputs. I hate when that happens too.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I've had this happen to me often with ROB, too. By last frame do you mean the last frame of their jumpstart/the last frame before you become airborne?

 

[The Cape]

There is a dead frame that the game has in there. Veril and I feel that it is there for the game to determine if you are SHing or full hopping (holding jump on that frame = fullhop) and anything inputted in that frame is ignored.

What a STUPID coding idea.

 

[KayLo!]

I'm guessing this dead frame happens when inputting B moves too, huh? That's annoying. Sometimes when I FH tjolt with Pikachu, I'll jump without the jolt coming out..... it's really frustrating...... -_____-

 

[phi1ny3]

^Yeah, this dead frame I'm guessing is also what makes timing sheik lagless FH needles annoying.

Edit: Something that has been bothering me lately, didn't really look around much until I was talking to a friend of mine about it.

Lucario is a victim to something known as "RCO lag", I know what causes it at least for Lucario, but what exactly is going on in registering this unnecessary landing lag? Also what other characters have a tendency to exhibit the same phenomenon?

 

[phi1ny3]

ragerage double post 502 ftl

 

[Pikabunz]

Here you go, Philly.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=252451

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh there's a nice thread right there, thanks.

It got brought up again because the whole "buffer shield from a special" has come about.

 

[Pierce7d]

Just to clarify, Sheik can remain completely invincible with vanish + the edge. However, Sheik cannot produce constant hitboxes to protect the edge, so it is hogable. It's still broken, and heavily in favor of the planker, but fortunately for Melee's metagame, all the top players are too honorable to utilize such techniques.

Against most characters, Jigglypuff's planking is also HUGELY overpowering, since Jiggs can typically recover against any attack that many be fortunate enough to hit her, and will typically kill anyone attempting to hit her in a punish with a gimp or rest.

Most top players simply choose not to plank, and though it is not proven to be unbeatable if done perfectly, it has proven to be an overpowered tactic.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Pierce, I would disagree, it's easy enough to hog on reaction because of the precise timing it requires, mostly because melee has such powerful movement tools. TBH, shino-stalling isn't what makes her powerful in the edge, she just has strong tools on the edge due to her jump mechanics and her aerials.


As far as jigg's planking, the issue is more that it's never be particularly well studied, however there is little ledge invincibility and movement is still incredibly powerful, so if done properly, even falcon can hit jiggs out of planking.

 

[Pierce7d]

Pierce, I would disagree, it's easy enough to hog on reaction because of the precise timing it requires, mostly because melee has such powerful movement tools. TBH, shino-stalling isn't what makes her powerful in the edge, she just has strong tools on the edge due to her jump mechanics and her aerials.


As far as jigg's planking, the issue is more that it's never be particularly well studied, however there is little ledge invincibility and movement is still incredibly powerful, so if done properly, even falcon can hit jiggs out of planking.

You only serve to amplify my point. Neither of these tactics are unbeatable, however they could be very powerful, over-centralizing techniques, and currently are frowned upon, regardless of being beatable. Powerful tools to punish those who dare approach the edge are heavily rewarding, and unlike in Brawl, no projectile, including PK Thunder, can pull Sheik off the edge. You MUST grab the edge to stop Sheik from planking.

Also, I already agreed that it's very possible to hit Jiggs out of planking, but this doesn't nullify that it puts the RvR hugely in Jiggs favor in a lot of MUs.