Goals of the Smashlab and Specific Projects. Wip

[KayLo!]

I actually would if I knew anything whatsoever about hacking, but my skills are pretty limited to..... copying & pasting codes. x.x

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Hey Magus, I've been wanting to figure out the formula and what not for Shield hitlag and hitstun and I figured you were the guy to talk to. If you can hit me up on AIM(rocketsci227) or something that would be great.

[size=large]Hitlag[/size]
-Melee-
Hitlag = floor{(Damage/3 + 3)}
-Brawl-
Hitlag = floor{(Damage/2.6 + 5)}

The hitlag code...
Hitlag Modifier [Phantom Wings, Almas, spunit262] 8 lines
C2771EAC 00000004
2C04VVVV 41800010
1C84XXXX 3884ZZZZ
39C0YYYY 7C8473D6
2C040000 00000000
C2876220 00000004
2C04VVVV 41800010
1C84XXXX 3884ZZZZ
39C0YYYY 7C8473D6
80660064 00000000

(Hitlag*X+Z)/Y

...modifies the hitlag after the floor{}.


[size=large]Shieldstun[/size]
-Melee-
Shieldstun = floor{[(4.45 + Damage) / 2.235]}
-Brawl-
Shieldstun = floor{(Damage / 3)}

The shieldstun code...
Shieldstun [spunit262]
C28753FC 00000005
83810034 8083013C
2C040000 41810014
1F9CXXXX 3B9CZZZZ
3880YYYY 7F9C23D6
60000000 00000000

(Stun*X+Z)/Y = New shieldstun

...modifies the shieldstun after the floor{}, but it also doesn't work like that description says it does. For example:

-Brawl+ 5.0-
X=20
Z=35
Y=10

Somehow this actually results in:
(Stun*2)+5
instead of
(Stun*2)+3.5




I don't know the actual formulas for hitstun since I'd need to know the formulas for launch speed (real launch speed not the fastest pitch/top speed junk which is translation based and includes effects of physics/DI and such).

The hitlag stuff also applies for shield hitlag, correct?

Oh woops, I gave you the simplified version. It's actually:

Hitlag = floor{(Damage/2.6 + 5)*M*E]}

M: Hitbox's hitlag multiplier parameter. On hit this is used for both players, but on block it's used only for the attacker and is 1.00x for the person shielding. Multipliers that are less than 1.00x can have the attacker be in hitlag for less time than the person blocking (improving adv on block), while greater than 1.00x can have them be in hitlag longer than the defender (reducing adv on block).

E: Electric multiplier (1.50x if it hits and is also electric element, otherwise 1.00x for non-electric or against a shield). In VBrawl the 1.50x applies to both players on hit, while in P:M it was changed to be like Melee where the 1.50x only applies to the person being hit.

<ten characters

 

[The Cape]

I actually would if I knew anything whatsoever about hacking, but my skills are pretty limited to..... copying & pasting codes. x.x

I could walk you through it on AIM if you would like.

 

[The Cape]

Know what? I can do this thing in about 15 minutes. Someone get me the hitbubble.pacs (or if we dont have any I can start all this from here) and I can post it up here pretty quick.

 

[KayLo!]

I don't even know what you're talking about right now. ;__________;

You mean the visible hitbubble .pacs? I have them for Pika & Zelda, and I can probably find the rest on the character boards, if that's what you mean......

(I feel like I'm hurting more than helping the process atm. x.x)

 

[The Cape]

Kaylo, if you can get me all of those hitbubble .pacs then I can make this thing work for the frame advance in about 15 minutes. I just need all of those so that we dont have to code any of this twice.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8842503#post8842503

 

[KayLo!]

Pretend I did what rPSI did. ;;

 

[The Cape]

I should have this up tonight. Making dinner shortly.

Pretend I did what rPSI did. ;;

How about I just accredit you with everything he does anyway?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

.pac size limitations.

 

[KayLo!]

How about I just accredit you with everything he does anyway?

I like the way you think.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

;-;

<ten characters

 

[The Cape]

I will start working on all this stuff right away, should have it up in a few hours (factoring in cooking and eating my DELICIOUS casserole).

I'll post a .zip with all of these up here in a bit. Then I need someone to test them for me obviously.

Going to use side taunt because of up and down being used for the hitbubbles

 

[The Cape]

Love me:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4ZE3UVB1

Report any issues.

GW hitbubbles.pac wasnt working on three DLs so I went with an unedited one. The rest of them should work properly unless they got space ***** (which I doubt).

 

[KayLo!]

! Caaaaaaaape, this is amazing. I won't have time to test til tomorrow, but thankyouthankyouthankyou in advance. <3

 

[The Cape]

Just keep me informed. I am going back home on Thursday for the long weekend (flying from Tucson to Philly = not fun) and wont have my comp with me til Monday again.

 

[KayLo!]

You're from Philly? Didn't know we were from the same city!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

The Lucas one so far is working great. :D

 

[The Cape]

You're from Philly? Didn't know we were from the same city!

I'm from Carlisle. My current National Guard unit is in Philly and so I am flying in to take care of some business this coming weekend while I can. I am in Arizona right now for training.

The Lucas one so far is working great. :D

Side taunts are disabled?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Jesus Christ I leave for DC for a few hours and this thread gets 80+ replies.

So to test for, say, ROB, TL, and ZSS, I'm going to need the Debug code, unrestricted control editing, the visible hitbubble .pacs applied like any other .pac, action mod code, and the button mod code..?...

I'll try and make a codeset/.gct with those. Though I'm in the same boat as KayLo and have pretty awful hacking knowledge, so I don't think I'm even using the right terms. I just copypasta the codes into Ocarina Code Manager and hit "Export to .GCT", correct?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Side taunts are disabled?

Yep!

<Ten Character

 

[The Cape]

Jesus Christ I leave for DC for a few hours and this thread gets 80+ replies.

So to test for, say, ROB, TL, and ZSS, I'm going to need the Debug code, unrestricted control editing, the visible hitbubble .pacs applied like any other .pac, action mod code, and the button mod code..?...

I'll try and make a codeset/.gct with those. Though I'm in the same boat as KayLo and have pretty awful hacking knowledge, so I don't think I'm even using the right terms. I just copypasta the codes into Ocarina Code Manager and hit "Export to .GCT", correct?

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PDRP0CSU

.gct and txt for you non gcters.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Cape =

 

[The Cape]

Yep!

<Ten Character

I love when an untested theory, 5 mins of work, and being cocky pays off.

 

[Veril]

I posted visible hitbubble links like a month ago. All of you really should read through my information dump thread seeing as this was literally at the top of my OP.

There's a ton of crap there. Seriously.

That said, Cape's code will be very useful. The .gct has everything I recommended so... its legit the things that will make testing much simpler. Make sure you all have the frame : timer conversion, hitbubble .pacs (listed by Rocketpsi and in my dump thread), jump values from the excel sheet I posted, etc if you're going to be checking things like on hit advantage. Using input maps to set up experiments with these tools, frame advance testing becomes unimaginably more useful and efficient.

Anyway, I'm excited for the google docs. Cape's correcting some of the autocancel data he got me, and I'm redoing a few aerials which I had not tested for vBrawl FAF (Sonic dair, ZSS dair... etc, moves that are generally modified in any alternate codeset). Also getting all the FHFF and SHFF optimal input points, airtime and landing points and the frame optimal Quarter circle ledgehogs will start to snap to the ledge (fact checking for DMG's planking data). That'll all be in an updated jump data excel sheet which I'll be putting up on the google docs page when its done.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I posted visible hitbubble links like a month ago. All of you really should read through my information dump thread seeing as this was literally at the top of my OP.

I did, which is where I copy-pasted it from.

 

[Veril]

word

I just did the input map and frame breakdown for MK perfect planking as well as the analysis. A massive project is not needed for MK's planking. Its completely and obviously unbeatable by any means. Not even MK can beat it. When DMG responds to my PM I'll start a new thread for planking info.

It hurt to test. Like, I seriously didn't want to see the confirmation of how broken it is as a tactic, being an MK main. Now I face the question of how to approach this now confirmed knowledge.

 

[KayLo!]

I consider this excellent news. <3 But there's a LGL now anyways, so meh.

 

[T-block]

The BBR doesn't actually endorse the LGL.

Is it reasonable to expect humans to perform perfect or near-perfect planking? If it's been shown to be unbeatable, then we'll either have to come up with a way to limit it (not likely to happen), or ban MK.

Any plans to test Pit/GW more in depth?

 

[KayLo!]

I was speaking for myself. Practically every tourney I go to enforces it, so the BBR's "official" standing on it doesn't really matter to me. =X

Anyways, I personally hope it gets MK banned, but I'm here purely for research..... not Smash politics. ;;

@Veril: If/when you get into Pika's planking abilities, lemme know.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Tisk tisk Veril.

Shame on you for going to the dark side.

Joking aside, I think it's silly that the BBR doesn't endorse LGL. No offence to any of you here that are in the BBR, but even though it can't be expected for a human to be able to perform frame-perfect planking, the same arguement renders yours moot. It also cannot be expected for a human to be able to react with enough time to beat out a very skilled planker, even taking into account the MK's "off" timing. The way I see it, if one can't be on frame, then the other obviously can't either. Essentially, the MK still has a frame advantage because of the window that exists that still gives enough room for a bit of error, and the fact that the other character will most likely have a frame disadvantage plus whatever their reaction time is.

I'm making all these assumptions based on the data available, so I'd still like to hear Veril's input, seeing as he mains MK.

 

[T-block]

That's not the reason - the reason the LGL doesn't receive support is not because we want to tell people to "deal with planking". It's that the LGL is actually not effective at stopping the problem. I'm sure you've heard stories of MKs timing people out with only 12 ledge grabs. The thing is, the LGL actually hurts other characters (Chibo, for example, has been arguing that it really hurts ROB, even when he's not against MK) and it doesn't seem fair to limit other characters with a limit, especially when MK doesn't feel the hit as hard as other characters do.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I just need a quick briefing of what is being done right now, and how it can be helped.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I go to watch a movie for an hour and this happens. I should just never get off my computer.

@Veril: Can we have the frame breakdown of Perfect Planking and are you planning on double checking any of DMG's other work?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Tisk tisk Veril.

Shame on you for going to the dark side.

Joking aside, I think it's silly that the BBR doesn't endorse LGL. No offence to any of you here that are in the BBR, but even though it can't be expected for a human to be able to perform frame-perfect planking, the same arguement renders yours moot. It also cannot be expected for a human to be able to react with enough time to beat out a very skilled planker, even taking into account the MK's "off" timing. The way I see it, if one can't be on frame, then the other obviously can't either. Essentially, the MK still has a frame advantage because of the window that exists that still gives enough room for a bit of error, and the fact that the other character will most likely have a frame disadvantage plus whatever their reaction time is.

I'm making all these assumptions based on the data available, so I'd still like to hear Veril's input, seeing as he mains MK.

What's so hard about frame-perfect planking, we do have 10 frames of buffering, that means that there's only 1 window that's 1 frame.


It's hard, but doable.



Regardless, I think it should be pretty obvious why the BBR doesn't have a supermajority in favor of LGL, people who oppose the rule have said why in public a number of times.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I never said I myself believe it was difficult to perform; indeed, I believe very so that it is, or at least, should be, something on an MK main's "To Learn" list. I was simply trying to argue against T-Block's saying "Is it reasonable to expect humans to perform perfect or near-perfect planking? If it's been shown to be unbeatable, then we'll either have to come up with a way to limit it (not likely to happen), or ban MK."

Although T-Block does have a point, I see it would bring other characters down were a LGL "officially" implemented. Either way, however, with or without a limit, MK still has the upper hand. And if tournaments are running fine with a limit in use, why go against it? Again, I see how it handicaps other characters, but that could be dealt with with a "no planking" rule, no?

 

[T-block]

It's the principle behind it - if something is not necessary, and especially if it doesn't work, then why are we adding some arbitrary rule/limit into the game? Brawl was certainly not designed with the intention of ledge grabs being a deciding factor in who wins a match (I know Brawl wasn't meant to be played competitively blahfbalksdf, but you see my point). Tournaments run fine with it because people have been convinced that it's an overall good thing, when it's actually not obvious that that's the case.

Those two questions were somewhat separate thoughts. Although in Melee there are a bunch of things that are unbeatable frame perfect but aren't banned because it's unreasonable to expect anyone to be able to do them with any consistency (I think...don't quote me on this), so there might be a similar thought process applicable here. I would wager it is possible to be near-perfect when planking =P

 

[Veril]

The BBR is foolish not to endorse a LGL.

The game literally cannot function if MK (and possibly also Pikachu) are allowed infinite ledge grabs. The LGL does work for removing the LITERALLY unbeatable tactic of perfect planking.

MK timing out people is not what the LGL is meant to remove. MK can time people out without it, but the only 100% proven (by me at least) unbeatable tactic is ledge-dropping into upair and regrabbing before the opponent can set up a spacing/projectile frame trap that could hit MK offstage. With a LGL MK must space out his regrabs to the ledge and keep track of them. This means that desychned ice-blocks, explosives, multi-hit and sex kick aerials, etc can all pressure MK and force him to select an option to return to the stage. He doesn't have infinite jumps. If you want to argue frame data on his recovery options I'm open to that, I'll just need some time to **** whatever argument gets thrown at me.

Perfect planking is a misnomer. It isn't hard to do and doesn't require frame perfect timing. The most important thing is having the first up-air and then choosing the right option based on the opponents positioning. Position yourself to avoid the projectiles, hit any explosives with the first up-air. If the opponent ledgehogs immediately proceed to **** them for going to the ledge against MK. You can also dimensional cape BACK ONSTAGE from the falling double up-air iasa point.

The ledge-drop cannot be buffered. That is the only "perfect" part of this, and you can still have a completely invincible up-air if you are off by a few frames. Even if it did require near perfect timing, as opposed to being laughably easy, it would still be doable and completely broken.

I am not convinced MK is the only character with planking that is unbeatable by the majority of the cast btw. He might be the only character who can plank... himself... lol

MK Planking info (input maps and data)

00 : 00 : dash input from edge
01 : 98 : hold a-stick forward
02 : 96 : initiate FF (a-stick down)
05 : 89 : hold a-stick towards ledge
06 : 90 : MK ledge snap initiates
12 : 80 : flashing "intangible" animation start
30 : 50 : earliest ledge drop input
31 : 48 : ledge drops earliest, input up-air
33 : 45 : earliest up-air hits
44 : 26 : input second up-air / dimensional cape
46 : 23 : optional second up air hits
51 : 15 : flashing "intangible animation end
52 : 13 : no longer inv. (tested and accurate)
57 : 05 : "choice planking option" input
58 : 03 : FAF from second up-air

MK's earliest QC ledgehog initiates "snap" animation frame 6
invincibility does not deprecate after a ledgedrop
MK has 21 frames invincibility from ledge drop input, this is not counting invincibility on the ledge.

As you can see, planking ***** math and the game. You don't actually even need to be CLOSE to frame perfect for this to be unpunishable. Basically you just need to be conscious, ie not in a coma.

Tested several frame perfect options for beating out Planking including desynch ice-blocks. No option works on any of the neutral-neutrals (not the MLG crap stages), except Yoshi's story. Desynch ice-blocks cannot be arced to even potentially land a hit if MK doesn't literally put himself directly in the path of them. No explosive can hit him from the stage. He has an option to avoid ANY projectile or item drop with over choice reaction time frames to choose the optimal (obvious and easy generally) means of avoiding said projectile/item. No character at the ledge can possibly punish this with any aerial or special due to the combination of transcendent priority, invincibility, and an effectively unlimited recovery.

Even frame-perfect PS to ledgesnap will not allow for punishing MK. Dimensional Cape allows for a safe return to the stage OR to the ledge. He cannot nado back onstage from a FF up-air x2 but he can from a non-FF up-air. Shuttle loop, drill rush, dimensional cape, gliding under the stage, and nair/uair/fair give him an option to respond to any antiplanking measure either with no hits exchanged or more commonly with the opponent losing a stock.

Not even MK can beat out perfect planking MK.

Although T-Block does have a point, I see it would bring other characters down were a LGL "officially" implemented. Either way, however, with or without a limit, MK still has the upper hand. And if tournaments are running fine with a limit in use, why go against it? Again, I see how it handicaps other characters, but that could be dealt with with a "no planking" rule, no?

That's nonsense. An LGL is already implemented at just about every tournament including MLG. SBR needs to get with the program. LGL makes the game better. Period. Ledgestalling, even if not unbeatable, is probably the most effective tactic in this game against a majority of the cast. Is this what the game should be allowed to devolve into? That said I think the LGL should be character specific and based on the actual efficacy of a characters ledgestalling rather than using an arbitrary value for everyone.

And yes, I'm checking several other characters and finding all the perfect QC ledgesnap points. Though they don't really matter cause MK can do a reverse shuttle loop or dimensional Cape or glide under the stage making this method of countering planking pointless because no invincible aerial from ledgedrop beats all of these options and hardly any even beat out one.

Marth, Pikachu, Peach, GW, Lucario, Rob, Jigglypuff and Pit all have Planking worth looking at in detail.

Tisk tisk Veril.

Shame on you for going to the dark side.

...

I'm making all these assumptions based on the data available, so I'd still like to hear Veril's input, seeing as he mains MK.

MK was the first character I played in vBrawl, along with Lucas and later Jiggs. The fact that he's the best in the game is really convenient and has a lot to do with why I main him now, but... he's also a huge bad*** and a lot of fun to use. Don't you be hating with your lame Robot.

Anyway, there is no counter to perfect planking, I didn't even consider impossible bull**** like people perfectly powershielding -> perfectly QC ledge hogging -> perfect ledgedropped aerial that predicts the option MK will choose when you've only got maybe one option beating out any of his and even getting in the position is complete suicide. I thought about the ICs super extended ledge invincibility also btw. MK can dimensional cape onstage, glide to the other side and the extended inv. frames won't keep you from nairing Popo out of anything he could do from a ledgedrop (ie he can't do anything without MK killing him in this situation).

in Melee there are a bunch of things that are unbeatable frame perfect but aren't banned because it's unreasonable to expect anyone to be able to do them with any consistency

Plank planked with Shiek in Melee. There are unbeatable stalling tactics in that game. Stalling is banned in melee as well as brawl. ledge-drop up-b regrab is unbeatable afaik. That said its extremely obvious that this tactic is being used and that it has no purpose but to make combat impossible, ergo it is stalling.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Don't get me wrong, I don't actually hate the character, or even the players for that matter. In fact, MK was also my first character in vBrawl. I was already planning on maining him when I followed the Dojo. I was hyped for the character. But I dropped him when I joined because of the ROB community. I dislike MK's playing style and the fact that people drop their mains usually to actually make money. I'll admit that I like playing as him when I want to introduce people to competitive play, haha.

But anyhow, I was never advocating against a limit in the statement you quoted, I was only acknowledging T-block's point, where he said that the SBR doesn't endorse a LGL for many reasons, one of them being that if it did, and it set one ledge grab allowance for all characters, it would put many at a disadvantage. When I said "officially", I meant that the SBR endorsed it; noticed the quotes.

And the only reason I suggested banning planking rather than giving different characters different amounts of ledge grabs was because I thought about the "political outrage" that would ensue. I imagine people would be bawww-ing over how so and so got more ledge grabs than their main, and it would just be a downright mess.

Anyways, the Lab, sadly, isn't the one that makes the calls. That's up to the Back Room. We could give all the data possible to support one movement, but if they vote against it, it won't be done. Though I still think it's silly; the SBR seems to be simply a figurehead: they can't really control what TO's decide to do with their events.

 

[Veril]

Having just looked into some other characters, less in depth than MK, I'm coming to believe that a few others may have near perfect or actually perfect planking. Pikachu for example appears to have invincibility that extends long enough to cover his up-b return to the ledge. I am aware Pikachu has less ledge invincibility, however given his earlier ledgedrop he has only ~6 fewer invincible frames in the air as MK... I need to actually do the math but this what it appears to be. Pikachu's up-b can ledgegrab earliest on the 19 or 20 (from the move input), which would mean his ledge-snap would initiate the frame he lost invincibility, or very close to it.




As to "political outrage", who cares? People whine about everything all the time anyway. Bawwing is not something we should ever consider when making recommendations. Banning planking requires a LGL. I mean, I've dealt with my share of the unpleasable fanbase via B+, more than the majority of people in the smash backroom (other than the most prominent anti-ban members perhaps). If the backroom ignores DMG and I.... well its not like I really am impressed by that group anyway. The SBR is a sad sack of fail in regards to not taking action on the LGL. If they vote against it... it'll still be done by TOs. Just like if they ban MK TOs won't necessarily all go along with it.