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Honestly, the one thing I want clarified beyond a shadow of a doubt before the Fighter Pass has all its characters revealed is whether or not spirits deconfirm characters on the spot. Unlike Mii Fighter costumes or Assist Trophies, they could make any one of them a playable fighter still. Characters like Geno, Shantae, and Bandana Waddle Dee are still discussed on this deal, especially Shantae if the whole thing about franchises new to Smash is accurate
Unpopular opinion: I don't think we're getting another Western developer rep outside Microsoft. I just think about how Nintendo hard swerved Ubisoft, easily their most loyal Western developer since the Wii, and just kind of hard squint when people suggest companies like Bethesda that have only been on board since the Switch and mostly with ports at that. Microsoft is kind of a RARE exception given it's a half trillion dollar company, one of Nintendo's biggest competitors, and yet was openly willing to cooperate on Smash. That's kind of a big deal. I don't think anyone can compete with that level of clout and, kind of like Grant Kirkhope said yesterday, Nintendo's kind of notorious for preferring to work with Japanese developers unless they have absolute say in things and they strictly stick to Nintendo's vision on things.
Unpopular opinion: I don't think we're getting another Western developer rep outside Microsoft. I just think about how Nintendo hard swerved Ubisoft, easily their most loyal Western developer since the Wii, and just kind of hard squint when people suggest companies like Bethesda that have only been on board since the Switch and mostly with ports at that. Microsoft is kind of a RARE exception given it's a half trillion dollar company, one of Nintendo's biggest competitors, and yet was openly willing to cooperate on Smash. That's kind of a big deal. I don't think anyone can compete with that level of clout and, kind of like Grant Kirkhope said yesterday, Nintendo's kind of notorious for preferring to work with Japanese developers unless they have absolute say in things and they strictly stick to Nintendo's vision on things.
I actually agree with this I doubt there'll be yet another Western rep specifically 3rd party Western rep and you explained it a whole lot better than I could Fatman. I really think Banjo is the only Western rep we'll get in the fighters pass.
I personally believe we'll get some shocking reveal that nobody saw coming as the fourth DLC character be it Geno or some other Spirit character/Unlikely character and a Capcom rep specifically Phoenix Wright or an RE Rep.
Unpopular opinion: I don't think we're getting another Western developer rep outside Microsoft. I just think about how Nintendo hard swerved Ubisoft, easily their most loyal Western developer since the Wii, and just kind of hard squint when people suggest companies like Bethesda that have only been on board since the Switch and mostly with ports at that. Microsoft is kind of a RARE exception given it's a half trillion dollar company, one of Nintendo's biggest competitors, and yet was openly willing to cooperate on Smash. That's kind of a big deal. I don't think anyone can compete with that level of clout and, kind of like Grant Kirkhope said yesterday, Nintendo's kind of notorious for preferring to work with Japanese developers unless they have absolute say in things and they strictly stick to Nintendo's vision on things.
I think Banjo was a big exception: not only has he been a consistently request since Melee, he has a fanbase in Japan, even if it is smaller than in the west. Basically the opposite of Hero, in a way, which is why I think pairing them as a double reveal was a great idea.
I don't think we're getting a character that fully caters to the west (or to Japan, for that matter), though. Problem is, that alone would chop down most candidates people talk about for western reps. The one exception that comes to mind is Crash, as he also has a smaller base in Japan like Banjo, but that's it.
As much as people treat Bamco and Capcom picks like they're too obvious... they are (usually) the ones that would give the most well-rounded results, though that doesn't mean there aren't contenders.
I still think leaving out the west is a mistake for a game that is supposed to represent all of gaming. If you ignore the west you ignore a lot of gaming history. In the very least just work with the west enough to give us Doomguy considering how he is the father of the FPS.
I still think leaving out the west is a mistake for a game that is supposed to represent all of gaming. If you ignore the west you ignore a lot of gaming history. In the very least just work with the west enough to give us Doomguy considering how he is the father of the FPS.
I don't care if we don't get more Western reps. Banjo and Kazooie were the only ones I wanted in. Doomguy's great, Rayman's awesome, and so on and so forth, but the one that I was dying for finally happened. Honestly, apart from hoping (with optimism, especially since Banjo is in and I don't horribly mind if Geno misses the boat now because AAAAAAAA BANJO) for Geno, I'm so blasé about whatever else happens with Smash now, haha. I'm just so sunny and content with B-K alone that my heart is impenetrable. It cannot possibly be broken anymore now that my childhood heroes are finally home. <3
Yeah, Banjo opened the gates. Let's see if others will follow. If not now, then next time.
In the end, the issue is not only demographic, but marketing. There seems to be very little explanation as to why Rayman flops in the east. By that logic, Crash and Banjo should have flopped too. Same with DQ in the west. Why does the rest of the world only account for 10% of sales when the west clearly loves JRPGs?
If anything, we should hope the possibility of being in Smash makes companies realize how much difference global marketing can make.
I just think if you plan to sell your game world wide. You should consider characters from world wide. Not just "Ok we need a Japanese character that has world wide appeal" Banjo is a step in the right direction. But it would suck for them to keep just limiting themselves to just Japanese companies. Especially when there are western companies wanting to support them and the switch.
I just think if you plan to sell your game world wide. You should consider characters from world wide. Not just "Ok we need a Japanese character that has world wide appeal" Banjo is a step in the right direction. But it would suck for them to keep just limiting themselves to just Japanese companies. Especially when there are western companies wanting to support them and the switch.
Oh, not disagreeing. Just saying that Smash wasn't meant to be as entirely worldwide as you were talking about.
It still absolutely has worldwide appeal. Do note it wasn't going to even go overseas in the 64 era. The worldwide appeal thing is something Sakurai still cares about too, which is why we almost didn't get Marth, Roy, or Lucas.
Yeah, Banjo opened the gates. Let's see if others will follow. If not now, then next time.
In the end, the issue is not only demographic, but marketing. There seems to be very little explanation as to why Rayman flops in the east. By that logic, Crash and Banjo should have flopped too. Same with DQ in the west. Why does the rest of the world only account for 10% of sales when the west clearly loves JRPGs?
If anything, we should hope the possibility of being in Smash makes companies realize how much difference global marketing can make.
Unpopular opinion: I don't think we're getting another Western developer rep outside Microsoft. I just think about how Nintendo hard swerved Ubisoft, easily their most loyal Western developer since the Wii, and just kind of hard squint when people suggest companies like Bethesda that have only been on board since the Switch and mostly with ports at that. Microsoft is kind of a RARE exception given it's a half trillion dollar company, one of Nintendo's biggest competitors, and yet was openly willing to cooperate on Smash. That's kind of a big deal. I don't think anyone can compete with that level of clout and, kind of like Grant Kirkhope said yesterday, Nintendo's kind of notorious for preferring to work with Japanese developers unless they have absolute say in things and they strictly stick to Nintendo's vision on things.
That's possible, but they ballot asked your region for a reason, right? And gender?
I know Joker and Incineroar obviously aren't ballot picks, but you can basically go through the categories the ballot questionnaire had and put everyone else into them.
Overall winner: K. Rool
the West: Ridley, maybe Simon, Dark Samus, Banjo
Japan: Inkling, Richter (far more popular than Simon in Japan), Chrom, Hero
and then there was a specific option to choose your gender and I believe that Daisy and Isabelle probably ranked higher proportionately with women than men so they "won" that category
Joker and Piranha Plant were 100% Sakurai though
Now I don't think there's any other western character that "the West" would have rallied behind in this scenario but if we got one more east/west duo I would not be surprised
The only other Western characters I really want are Steve and, well, a Creeper if possible...
...well, as well as Sans & Papyrus (together, though just one of them would be fine too), but I'm not expecting any of them this time around...there's some others I'd like too, such as Spyro, but don't care too much.
At least we got B-K. To get back on the topic of Geno, I'm not expecting him this time around, but I'd really like for him to get in; I'm not as attached to him as some other characters, but he's still in my list of favorites, as I still find him to be very cool.
I think Sakurai and Nintendo probably aren't looking at the company (i.e. no rewarding Ubisoft or Bethesda for their support) but rather just looking at characters. Banjo-Kazooie got in because people demanded Banjo-Kazooie and Sakurai and Nintendo decided to add Banjo-Kazooie, not because they wanted a Microsoft rep (there was zero reference to that in their trailer and in fact most, if not all, of the 'welcome home' tweets were on Microsoft's account).
So I would look less at guys like Doomguy and Rayman and more at Crash.
I think Sakurai and Nintendo probably aren't looking at the company (i.e. no rewarding Ubisoft or Bethesda for their support) but rather just looking at characters. Banjo-Kazooie got in because people demanded Banjo-Kazooie and Sakurai and Nintendo decided to add Banjo-Kazooie, not because they wanted a Microsoft rep (there was zero reference to that in their trailer and in fact most, if not all, of the 'welcome home' tweets were on Microsoft's account).
So I would look less at guys like Doomguy and Rayman and more at Crash.
Has anyone recently talked about how the theory behind Duck Hunt and Mii Swordfighter crashing Century Smash was due to them being used as a frame for DLC fighters? Cause with Banjo and Hero revealed, it seems that the theory was accurate.
Maybe we should keep our eyes pealed to see if any upcoming updates cause a similar issue. Perhaps if Megaman or Mii Gunner trigger crashes, it might be a good sign for Geno down the line. Food for thought.
I think Sakurai and Nintendo probably aren't looking at the company (i.e. no rewarding Ubisoft or Bethesda for their support) but rather just looking at characters. Banjo-Kazooie got in because people demanded Banjo-Kazooie and Sakurai and Nintendo decided to add Banjo-Kazooie, not because they wanted a Microsoft rep (there was zero reference to that in their trailer and in fact most, if not all, of the 'welcome home' tweets were on Microsoft's account).
So I would look less at guys like Doomguy and Rayman and more at Crash.
Crash is not only iconic but also a "character." He's booming with personality and that's something that has been shown to catch Sakurai's eye. He wants Smash to not only be a game of fighters but personalities too. He's even made this distinction for part of his reasoning behind Echoes and semi clones: two characters can practically be color swaps but have wildly different personalities. Despite this, I haven't a clue if Crash is even on Sakurai's radar.
I will just say that having Banjo and Kazooie in smash bros for me really healed the scar of not having Isaac or Geno in this game now. I can safely say that while there are other characters I really want in smash bros someday like Shantae and Llyod Irving among Geno and Isaac, I am pretty cool with where the last two DLC Slots will be in the near future. Just the fact that Banjo got in, a character I have wanted in smash bros since I was just 5 years old playing the N64 and then imagining them in smash bros since the melee days in 2002, I am just ready to see what's next with a content heart. Thank you Sakurai and Microsoft for Banjo. He really made it for me.
Crash is not only iconic but also a "character." He's booming with personality and that's something that has been shown to catch Sakurai's eye. He wants Smash to not only be a game of fighters but personalities too. He's even made this distinction for part of his reasoning behind Echoes and semi clones: two characters can practically be color swaps but have wildly different personalities. Despite this, I haven't a clue if Crash is even on Sakurai's radar.
I would argue that Doomguy has a surprising amount of personality for a silent protag(In fact, I am pretty sure Eternal is going to delve even deeper in that regard), but Crash definitely make his personality known. I don't know about Rayman though.
I would argue that Doomguy has a surprising amount of personality for a silent protag(In fact, I am pretty sure Eternal is going to delve even deeper in that regard), but Crash definitely make his personality known. I don't know about Rayman though.
My gal, you are NOT the only one. Mario + Rabbids made me love them to bits. I can't deny that Rabbids in the game would actually be pretty cool, especially if they're based off of the ones from that game.
I just realized that after Banjo getting revealed and having Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man all the roster seems like Bomberman should get in the game... they really drop the ball with that Assist Trophy. Though I will say that if they want to go with unexpecting characters for the Fighter Pass then maybe they would want to turn Bomberman into a Fighter despite his Assist Trophy status. I doubt it, but it's such a shame that Bomberman can't really join these characters.
Rayman definitely had personality in Origins and Legends. I'm less familiar with his earlier games (I played a GBA port of his first game I think but haven't played it in forever and forgot alot about it).
I could see him air guitaring for one of his victory screens, or doing that disco dance.
I would argue that Doomguy has a surprising amount of personality for a silent protag(In fact, I am pretty sure Eternal is going to delve even deeper in that regard), but Crash definitely make his personality known. I don't know about Rayman though.
Several reasons. For Rayman, Sakurai and Nintendo just don't seem to give a crap about him. Ubisoft sent them a g-damn model, it doesn't get any more willing than that. Negotiations would have been super easy. Yet despite that, he's still not in. That leads me to believe they aren't interested in adding Rayman. Add to that the fact that he isn't popular in Japan and is a pretty bland character, he really needs that 'rewarding Ubisoft' card to get in imo.
For Doomguy, the not popular in Japan thing is even worse as they don't even like the genre Doomguy hails from (and invented). Unlike Rayman (who at least is pretty popular over here) Doomguy doesn't even have a big support base this side of the globe. Plus the fact that he would have to be toned down, and I just don't see them going through the effort of adding him unless they specifically wanted a Bethesda rep - in which case he's the frontrunner.
Tl;dr: both characters are pretty weak chance wise and their best shot at getting in would be as company reps rather than for their own merits imo.
Several reasons. For Rayman, Sakurai and Nintendo just don't seem to give a crap about him. Ubisoft sent them a g-damn model, it doesn't get any more willing than that. Negotiations would have been super easy. Yet despite that, he's still not in. That leads me to believe they aren't interested in adding Rayman. Add to that the fact that he isn't popular in Japan and is a pretty bland character, he really needs that 'rewarding Ubisoft' card to get in imo.
For Doomguy, the not popular in Japan thing is even worse as they don't even like the genre Doomguy hails from (and invented). Unlike Rayman (who at least is pretty popular over here) Doomguy doesn't even have a big support base this side of the globe. Plus the fact that he would have to be toned down, and I just don't see them going through the effort of adding him unless they specifically wanted a Bethesda rep - in which case he's the frontrunner.
Tl;dr: both characters are pretty weak chance wise and their best shot at getting in would be as company reps rather than for their own merits imo.
Sakurai himself said that, I recall. I'll look for the source rn, but the gist of it was that Ubi sent Sakurai a model of Rayman in hopes that he would be made playable and that model is Rayman's trophy in Sm4sh.
Edit: looked it up, and I can't find the 'why Ubisoft sent the model' part, only that they did without being asked for it. Might have imagined it, but I'm pretty confident that I didn't. Still, since there's no evidence, take it with a grain of salt.
For Doomguy, the not popular in Japan thing is even worse as they don't even like the genre Doomguy hails from (and invented). Unlike Rayman (who at least is pretty popular over here) Doomguy doesn't even have a big support base this side of the globe. Plus the fact that he would have to be toned down, and I just don't see them going through the effort of adding him unless they specifically wanted a Bethesda rep - in which case he's the frontrunner.
Sakurai seems to understand his inportance though. Or at least, how his games creator when it comes to the FPS. And Doomguy seems to constantly do well in fan polls, even before he got in a few popular leaks.
Sakurai seems to understand his inportance though. Or at least, how his games creator when it comes to the FPS. And Doomguy seems to constantly do well in fan polls, even before he got in a few popular leaks.
Understanding importance, sure. But there's a long road between that and playable.
And in my experience Doomguy has done pretty dismally in polls before his 'leaks'. While he's doing better now, I can't even begin to imagine how poorly he must perform on a global scale.
Sakurai himself said that, I recall. I'll look for the source rn, but the gist of it was that Ubi sent Sakurai a model of Rayman in hopes that he would be made playable and that model is Rayman's trophy in Sm4sh.
I really do dislike the whole notion of not adding characters or being cautious on them if they’re not Japanese.
I mean don’t get me wrong, I know Nintendo is a Japanese based company, Sakurai himself is Japanese, and obviously that’s where he lives and works so I get the bias. But come on.... The rest of the world plays these games too and gives Nintendo their money just as much if not more than the Japanese gamers.
I don’t mean to sound ungrateful because I know he throws us a bone every now and then. I’m so happy about Banjo. I just hate the thought of “Western character? I don’t know..... The roster is only like 90% Japanese based.. We don’t have room for that.”
So happy this place hasn't just been collecting dust. Glad to see that even after Hero, we've not only picked ourselves back up but instantly welcomed our fellow Square characters in.
There isn't much to do right now except wait. We will definitely get some Geno info this summer. I'm expecting them to pull a Joker and shadowdrop a video explaining the DQ Hero's moveset and some added 4.0 goodies. There we'll see what Mii Costumes Square will decide to bring. If Geno's costume is there? I'll be glad it's back and able to be used again.
If it isn't, however...
We may be looking at something bigger and brighter.
I really do dislike the whole notion of not adding characters or being cautious on them if they’re not Japanese.
I mean don’t get me wrong, I know Nintendo is a Japanese based company, Sakurai himself is Japanese, and obviously that’s where he lives and works so I get the bias. But come on.... The rest of the world plays these games too and gives Nintendo their money just as much if not more than the Japanese gamers.
I don’t mean to sound ungrateful because I know he throws us a bone every now and then. I’m so happy about Banjo. I just hate the thought of “Western character? I don’t know..... The roster is only like 90% Japanese based.. We don’t have room for that.”
They've made 13.81 million sales of Smash Ultimate which only included 3 characters that didn't have direct origin in Japan and all originated from an originally Japanese series. The rest of the world seems more than content with playing the game with Japanese IPs as the absolute focus. Banjo Kazooie is the first original Western series to have a playable rep in Smash. So, as far as Nintendo is concerned, they have no reason to change their ways. Plus, I mean, go to any major popularity poll: Isaac, Geno, Bandanna Dee, Paper Mario, Dixie Kong, Shadow, Ashley, Waluigi, Lloyd Irving, Leon Kennedy, Travis Touchdown, even ****ing Goku. The astounding majority of the characters people tend to focus on in traditional Smash forums are almost all Japanese too. Characters like Shantae, Shovel Knight, and Doom Slayer are quite the minority in comparison.
I don't think it's necessarily some Western vs Japanese thing. I think it's which characters they notice just always being predominately Japanese based. Indies kind of go out the window because they have other potential limiting factors which reduces the viability of them as playable in Smash given that they have a much more uphill battle than others to earn that spot, which immediately knocks the top contenders at least within the ballots we've seen which would be one of their better ways of understanding Western appeal they might not otherwise catch in Japan. Let's take a look at some major third party franchises from the West that have connections to Nintendo:
Mortal Kombat - The series isn't even properly released in Japan, which certainly means it more or less completely lacks viability in Smash. Slight chance of happening I guess, but game's not releasing in places have been a problem for other characters in Sakurai's mind.
DOOM - The FPS genre isn't particularly popular in Japan to begin with and Doom itself isn't super popular there. Doom Slayer himself can be a hard sale to people here sometimes and he may be pushing on boundaries that we're unaware of for Sakurai. Joker's gun would presumably have proven this otherwise, but Doom is definitely the next level in testing those boundaries. I don't think it would really be a problem to tune him down for Smash though, but again, we don't quite know where Sakurai's boundaries lie on this issue. He's also just much more recently gotten some popularity as a character choice in Smash. The series certainly earns points in importance towards gaming history though.
The Elder Scrolls - No clear character representative for the game since there are sooo many customization options. You could do a Dragonborn character for sure (Especially in the wake of The Hero), but The Elder Scrolls has more playable races than we have alts to choose from and almost entirely unique classes for the characters. Not super easy to pull off and would need a lot of work to pull off, but it's certainly doable.
Fallout - Vault Boy could work, though he's never been playable and mostly just works as a mascot for the series. Otherwise, falls into the same issues as The Elder Scrolls. Also falls into the category of FPS, so it loses points in Japan there as well. I'd also think that Bethesda and Nintendo would likely prioritize The Elder Scrolls over Fallout if I'm being honest.
Crash Bandicoot - Quite a reasonable rep with actual popularity in Japan too and a lot of character. Probably one of our best bets for a second "Western" rep if I'm being honest and I think he might have a good shot, though I do wonder about his viability beyond nostalgia, but we have Banjo, so that doesn't matter.
Spyro - Much less popular in Japan and Crash would undoubtedly have to come first since he holds so much more meaning to the console market overall as Sony's big platforming mascot of the 90s.
Grand Theft Auto - Probably just never going to happen and only unrecognizable characters have appeared on Nintendo consoles with Chinatown Wars and GTA on the Gameboy Advance. A GTA character would definitely push boundaries further than any other character as they have to basically be entirely built around shooting real guns. I also know the series isn't super popular in Japan (or knew at one point, that could have changed) and I think that's probably a line Sakurai is unwilling to cross.
Rayman - I'm baffled he isn't already in the game (or at least the Rabbids). He's an icon and mascot for a well known third party supporter that has largely stuck with Nintendo. I guess he's just not popular in Japan and that makes him less enticing for Smash, but yeah, I'm mostly confused on his absence at this point. Though, unfortunately, I do think his Spirit is the one definitive one to deconfirm...
Halo - Certainly possible if Microsoft would allow it and Nintendo wanted it, but Banjo Kazooie clearly took priority. Also another FPS and Xbox related which means it basically has no following in Japan given Xbox sells atrociously no matter what they do.
Minecraft - Actually super popular in Japan and has potential, but suffers from the same character complaints people have levied at it all speculation and also Banjo Kazooie took priority.
Diablo - There's a real difficulty in selecting someone from Diablo that stands out enough to be Smash worthy or clear as something that may be worth pursuing.
Starcraft - Not really a clear character option for Starcraft in Smash, but I also know basically nothing of the series.
Mass Effect - You could probably do Shepard. But I also don't think EA is keen at all on continuing the series and seems intent on moving away from it. Shepard is also pretty customizable from what I remember.
The Witcher - The Witcher 3 is coming to Switch, so Geralt might have a serious shot at inclusion in Smash and he's a well defined character on his own too. No idea on his Japanese popularity though. Also CD Project Red is based in Poland, so they already don't quite fit into Western gaming super well, but for the sake of this discussion they are in comparison to Japan.
I tried to stick to major series that have appeared on Nintendo consoles in the past since that's generally the requirement for a character from them to show up in Smash is some semblance of a prior appearance, so something like Halo sneaks in on a technicality. Going over that list, there's a much bigger focus on character creation and customization in a great many of these games. And they often give much wider ranges of character customization than I see in Japanese reps and specifically the reps that we have that function as Avatars. Two characters in Skyrim will almost look completely different from one another where Villagers in Animal Crossing tend to retain several similarities in style. That sort of thing makes choosing a rep a LOT harder since you have to consider how you adapt those wildly different characteristics and the overall game. So I think a lot of big series lose support in Smash, with probably Dragonborn having the best chance of those.
Of the more traditionally named variety, it seems a lot of them struggle in Japan popularity wise which makes them less likely to land on Sakurai's radar. And in some instances those characters have been out-prioritized by others such as Crash over Spyro and Banjo Kazooie over Steve and Master Chief.
If I had to choose which Western third party reps were even really serious parts of the conversation, I'd think it would be Doom Slayer, Crash Bandicoot, Geralt of Riviera (But he's probably much too recent, though Nintendo seems to have had a big hand in bringing The Witcher 3 to Switch) Dragonborn, and Rayman fair the best. But I think Rayman is kind of already out thanks to his Spirit (I mean they would have specifically had to contact Ubisoft just for that one) and Dragonborn would need to be as ambitious as, if not more so than, The Hero to be done properly. I just don't actually see a ton of demand for a lot of the big choices of Western characters honestly, and if I'm not seeing it, than I imagine it's harder for executives and Sakurai to see them in Japan. Especially when several Western series are just wholly unpopular over there. It's actually kind of amazing how few Western characters even achieve significant popularity in our circles and how there fewer significant Western third parties than you'd think with Nintendo connections.
And to be clear, these are just my sort of assessment on the matter and mostly derived from my experiences. I'd have to do a much more in depth analysis of series popularity in Japan to really properly back this up, but we do see trends of several Western third party franchises struggling much more in Japan and I do think there's a lot more character customization in many of the big titles that maybe makes their inclusions into Smash more challenging or less apparent.
Something to consider is that the character doesn't necessarily have to be popular in Japan, as long as a huge portion of Westerners enjoy the character. Was B-K popular in Japan? It probably hurts their chances a bit if the East didn't care for them at all though.
Something else that sounds weird but should still be taken into consideration, while we've had the Internet since well before the first Smash game (Smash "64") even came out, gaming still wasn't fully mainstream and developers and fans weren't really communicating to each other, especially not during development. Plus, even if you could talk to the Smash team, you'd have the culture+language barrier to cross. I would argue it took them until it came time for the DLC spots for Smash 4 that they really wanted to start adding character for the fans, not just ones they liked, with a few interesting picks here and there (like Sonic and Snake in Brawl), which is why we're seeing so many Western-favorites like Ridley, King K. Rool, Isabelle, and now Banjo-Kazooie. Hell just look at the newcomers for Ultimate alone and I'd say there's more characters that Westerners really like over not. DQ Hero is honestly the first character in Ultimate that's been very divisive (another anime swordperson and from a franchise that hasn't been super popular here like it is in Japan).
As far as picking characters made in the West, does anyone seriously, actually, care about this? There's very few "Western-made" characters that I actually care about in comparison to the East, some I would absolutely despise. While I think it's important to pick characters that the West will like as well (DQ Hero was more for just Eastern fans than the West, but B-K was definitely more for West than East as well!), sometimes things happen and you just gotta deal with it. Keep cheering on your favorites and if there's anything to take away from this, it's that no matter how dead or irrelevant you think your character is now, just look at Banjo-Kazooie to know that anything's possible. As long as you know the character's very popular, there's always a chance, so be vocal about it and bring in others to join you.
PS: Assuming I'm right in my guess that we'll be getting more non-Pass DLC post Feb 2020, I wouldn't be surprised to see many more fan-favorite picks (perfect time for Geno; right now I strongly believe Mii Costume Theory with B-K taking up the 5th extra slot).
Also if a Smash 6 does end up happening, I'd be willing to bet indies would finally get their chance (like Shovel Knight, Quote, Undertale characters, etc).
I think it will forever bother me (or at least until he is added) how Geno is important enough to have a reveal style trailer made for his Mii Costume (music and all). But not important enough to be playable yet. He is in a constant state of being so close yet so far away.
Something to consider is that the character doesn't necessarily have to be popular in Japan, as long as a huge portion of Westerners enjoy the character. Was B-K popular in Japan? It probably hurts their chances a bit if the East didn't care for them at all though.
Something else that sounds weird but should still be taken into consideration, while we've had the Internet since well before the first Smash game (Smash "64") even came out, gaming still wasn't fully mainstream and developers and fans weren't really communicating to each other, especially not during development. Plus, even if you could talk to the Smash team, you'd have the culture+language barrier to cross. I would argue it took them until it came time for the DLC spots for Smash 4 that they really wanted to start adding character for the fans, not just ones they liked, with a few interesting picks here and there (like Sonic and Snake in Brawl), which is why we're seeing so many Western-favorites like Ridley, King K. Rool, Isabelle, and now Banjo-Kazooie. Hell just look at the newcomers for Ultimate alone and I'd say there's more characters that Westerners really like over not. DQ Hero is honestly the first character in Ultimate that's been very divisive (another anime swordperson and from a franchise that hasn't been super popular here like it is in Japan).
As far as picking characters made in the West, does anyone seriously, actually, care about this? There's very few "Western-made" characters that I actually care about in comparison to the East, some I would absolutely despise. While I think it's important to pick characters that the West will like as well (DQ Hero was more for just Eastern fans than the West, but B-K was definitely more for West than East as well!), sometimes things happen and you just gotta deal with it. Keep cheering on your favorites and if there's anything to take away from this, it's that no matter how dead or irrelevant you think your character is now, just look at Banjo-Kazooie to know that anything's possible. As long as you know the character's very popular, there's always a chance, so be vocal about it and bring in others to join you.
PS: Assuming I'm right in my guess that we'll be getting more non-Pass DLC post Feb 2020, I wouldn't be surprised to see many more fan-favorite picks (perfect time for Geno; right now I strongly believe Mii Costume Theory with B-K taking up the 5th extra slot).
Also if a Smash 6 does end up happening, I'd be willing to bet indies would finally get their chance (like Shovel Knight, Quote, Undertale characters, etc).
That's sort of the point of my post though. We don't even consider that many Western third party representatives in our Smash discussions. There's a fairly short list of the major contenders that pop up from time to time. And if we don't consider certain third party franchises relevant to the discussion with Smash, a wholly unpopular IP in Japan isn't going to really get the attention from Japanese developers and Nintendo. It's not supposed to be a post saying that these characters can never happen or anything of the sort, it's more of just there are a lot of issues that maybe make them less likely to get into Smash and might have a better shot if there were more Western fans supporting them to attract Nintendo's otherwise more limited attention (Which is how we got Banjo Kazooie by making a loud fuss for them, though they did have popularity in Japan too).
Of course you can keep cheering on whoever you want, but I was just taking a moment to examine how certain franchises that have a shot through Sakurai's criteria may not actually end up in the discussion for Smash in Japan or come off as clearly popular. There's also just less of the immediately recognizable innovators in many Western IPs that Japanese IPs can lay claim too. DOOM and Minecraft come to mind as the big innovators of their respective genres, so they probably have a better chance. The Witcher 3 and Skyrim have both been recognized by Nintendo as important games, so I'd also rank them higher chance wise for Smash given that we can at least conclude Nintendo knows them enough to promote them and make them happen on Switch.
I just don't think it has ever been an issue where Nintendo distinctly looked at Western IPs and decided not to make them happen. I just believe most of the big popular candidates and topics of discussion have a tendency to revolve around Japanese IPs and those are the easiest for Nintendo to work with since they have all of those connections from years past. At most I suspect their guilty of the sin of convenience more than anything else. If they can't perceive popularity or a clear way to represent the franchise properly, than certain characters probably aren't going to happen in Smash.
I'll also point out a couple of other things. Isabelle is a much bigger Eastern pick than Western given her huge popularity in Japan. And both King K. Rool and Banjo Kazooie had substantial fan bases in Japan as far as we know. I just think Nintendo needs to be made more aware of popularity to realize an inclusion in Smash might make sense, and I don't think Nintendo has historically done the best job of that sort of thinking.
I think it will forever bother me (or at least until he is added) how Geno is important enough to have a reveal style trailer made for his Mii Costume (music and all). But not important enough to be playable yet. He is in a constant state of being so close yet so far away.
It feels that way. My biggest fear is people eventually giving into the hate Geno gets and just outright leaving his support. Geno is quite literally the absolute last piece for me when it comes to having the perfect roster. We got banjo and now it's just geno that remains. We've gotten so close it seems and I refuse to believe being a spirit will be our end.
I do have a question for you all though. Let's say hypothetically they still don't give Geno's mii costume back when The Hero gets released. Do you think that helps Geno's chances? I still think it's odd they haven't given out his costume back despite his demand. My biggest hope is that he gets shadowdropped and is revealed to be an extra character outside of the season pass or perhaps a "sakurai pick" after the season pass is over. Huge stretch, but seeing banjo has given me hope since it's clear they are listening, and with how popular geno is in both america AND japan, he has to make it eventually.
That's possible, but they ballot asked your region for a reason, right? And gender?
I know Joker and Incineroar obviously aren't ballot picks, but you can basically go through the categories the ballot questionnaire had and put everyone else into them.
Overall winner: K. Rool
the West: Ridley, maybe Simon, Dark Samus, Banjo
Japan: Inkling, Richter (far more popular than Simon in Japan), Chrom, Hero
and then there was a specific option to choose your gender and I believe that Daisy and Isabelle probably ranked higher proportionately with women than men so they "won" that category
Joker and Piranha Plant were 100% Sakurai though
Now I don't think there's any other western character that "the West" would have rallied behind in this scenario but if we got one more east/west duo I would not be surprised
I just realized that after Banjo getting revealed and having Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man all the roster seems like Bomberman should get in the game... they really drop the ball with that Assist Trophy. Though I will say that if they want to go with unexpecting characters for the Fighter Pass then maybe they would want to turn Bomberman into a Fighter despite his Assist Trophy status. I doubt it, but it's such a shame that Bomberman can't really join these characters.
I will just say that having Banjo and Kazooie in smash bros for me really healed the scar of not having Isaac or Geno in this game now. I can safely say that while there are other characters I really want in smash bros someday like Shantae and Llyod Irving among Geno and Isaac, I am pretty cool with where the last two DLC Slots will be in the near future. Just the fact that Banjo got in, a character I have wanted in smash bros since I was just 5 years old playing the N64 and then imagining them in smash bros since the melee days in 2002, I am just ready to see what's next with a content heart. Thank you Sakurai and Microsoft for Banjo. He really made it for me.
Honestly I think Shantae and Lloyd could be the last 2 remaining characters in the Season Pass. Lloyd I'm especially sure is one of those remaining 2 since he is the only character that had a Mii costume from Smash 4 that doesn't have any presence in Ultimate at all. All the other characters that were Mii costumes from Smash 4 are either playable characters, Assist Trophies, or Spirits in Ultimate, but Lloyd isn't nowhere to be seen in Ultimate at all.
