Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Ovaltine]

Hey Fatmanonice , thanks so much for clarifying everything. It's nice to know that it's all interesting info, but all something that should be taken with a grain of salt because of personal speculation and interpretation.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Also, to be perfectly clear, the 90 minutes of footage is for one franchise/game and they seemed to imply they would be given early access to a demo too. This is just for one of the games supposedly coming and Nintendo splits this up among their ambassadors, seemingly so they can give (hopefully positive) impressions and gush about them on social media.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

One last thing people often don't take into account regarding DQ reps over any other Square franchise: worldwide profitability. I get how it could make sense when applied towards Japanese audiences because DQ is so highly beloved in its home country, but outside of it, Erdrick or pretty much any DQ rep could be considered a massive financial risk. Even with Ultimate's sales numbers, a large chunk of both casual and hardcore fans have made it fairly clear they're tired of the "anime swordsman" type of character that FE made infamous. That, and given the longer demand for characters like Sora, Crono, Geno, and even the Slime outside of Japan (Sora in particular being pretty much the second most requested Square rep after anything Final Fantasy), it could go over as poorly as Corrin did at the end of Smash 4's DLC cycle, if not magnified/even worse.

Thing about that is though if you look at Dragon Quest's sale numbers, it's almost at 80 million and that is very damn impressive for a franchise that is mostly dominant in Japan and niche else where in the world. It's Square-Enix's 2nd best selling franchise, so I could totally see them and Nintendo putting Erdrick in just for the Japanese fans because he would probably make a lot of money for them in Japan.

I want Genoooooooooooooooooooooooo DX

Don't we all.

 

[MattX20]

Thing about that is though if you look at Dragon Quest's sale numbers, it's almost at 80 million and that is very damn impressive for a franchise that is mostly dominant in Japan and niche else where in the world. It's Square-Enix's 2nd best selling franchise, so I could totally see them and Nintendo putting Erdrick in just for the Japanese fans because he would probably make a lot of money for them in Japan.



Don't we all.

Keep in mind over 90% of the sales of the Dragon Quest franchise is from Japan. If your franchise makes less than 10% of its profits overseas, that presents a major problem to try to justify to Western audiences for DLC in Smash.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Keep in mind over 90% of the sales of the Dragon Quest franchise is from Japan. If your franchise makes less than 10% of its profits overseas, that presents a major problem to try to justify to Western audiences for DLC in Smash.

I guess so... but wouldn't a bunch of Japanese fans buy Erdrick anyway? I'm not saying he won't do well as DLC, but with how huge Dragon Quest is in Japan you would think it doesn't matter that much about the sells for Erdrick as DLC in Smash worldwide.

 

[MissingGlitch]

I guess so... but wouldn't a bunch of Japanese fans buy Erdrick anyway? I'm not saying he won't do well as DLC, but with how huge Dragon Quest is in Japan you would think it doesn't matter that much about the sells for Erdrick as DLC in Smash worldwide.

Yeah sure. But you are throwing out all the potential sales from areas where Dragon Quest isn't popular which is basically everywhere else. They would more than likely see a better return on investment from a character that has worldwide appeal. Or at least a character that people actually know the name of.

 

[MattX20]

I guess so... but wouldn't a bunch of Japanese fans buy Erdrick anyway? I'm not saying he won't do well as DLC, but with how huge Dragon Quest is in Japan you would think it doesn't matter that much about the sells for Erdrick as DLC in Smash worldwide.

That, and it doesn't really make sense from Square Enix's perspective. They have to split any of the earnings/profits between 4 seperate parties, where as with characters like Sora and Geno they get more out of the deal.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Yeah sure. But you are throwing out all the potential sales from areas where Dragon Quest isn't popular which is basically everywhere else. They would more than likely see a better return on investment from a character that has worldwide appeal. Or at least a character that people actually know the name of.

Sora, Crono, Lora Croft, and Geno would have that worldwide appeal that Erdrick or any other Dragon Quest character does not have.

That, and it doesn't really make sense from Square Eix's perspective. They have to split any of the earnings/profits between 4 seperate parties, where as with characters like Sora and Geno they get more out of the deal.

I see your point.

 

[Ovaltine]

Sora, Crono, Lora Croft, and Geno would have that worldwide appeal that Erdrick or any other Dragon Quest character does not have.

That's not entirely true. Erdrick isn't as well-known worldwide, but Slime definitely is. There are also other DQ heroes (Madason and Eight) who are more known in the West than Erdrick. I knew jack about DQ before all the Smash speculation, but I at least knew who Slime was and had a vague understanding of DQVIII's better Western marketing.

 

[Teeb147]

Don't forget that promotion is a huge deal for businesses. Even if someone like erdrick wouldn't sell as much in the west, it's worth a lot to showcase a hero's potential for a series that they want to sell even more in the west. I think DQ11 did alright considering the little promotion it got compared to 8 and 9 which both sold quite a bit outside japan, though a bit less than persona 5 (in the west, i mean).

I think that if a character is put a lot of care into it, that alone can m;ake it sell a lot, not to mention that online and tournaments really shows characters off. Joker just won a super major yesterday i think. That might get more people to buy him. Though obviously a lot of people probably already did, with how fun he can be.

 

[kiteinthesky]

Also, to be perfectly clear, the 90 minutes of footage is for one franchise/game and they seemed to imply they would be given early access to a demo too. This is just for one of the games supposedly coming and Nintendo splits this up among their ambassadors, seemingly so they can give (hopefully positive) impressions and gush about them on social media.

Why do I get the feeling they're going to get to play Pikmin 4 or Metroid Prime 4 early?

 

[Ovaltine]

Why do I get the feeling they're going to get to play Pikmin 4 or Metroid Prime 4 early?

Considering how recently Retro restarted MP4's development, I sincerely doubt it'll be MP4. Pikmin 4 would make sense if it comes out of the vaporware hellhole, though, yeah.

Could also be... Odyssey 2...? (eyes emoji)

 

[TemporalShrew]

That's not entirely true. Erdrick isn't as well-known worldwide, but Slime definitely is. There are also other DQ heroes (Madason and Eight) who are more known in the West than Erdrick. I knew jack about DQ before all the Smash speculation, but I at least knew who Slime was and had a vague understanding of DQVIII's better Western marketing.

I'm not against Erdrick, I am emphatically pro-Slime. In a post-Piranha Plant world, I can and will unironically support a generic-yet-iconic random-encounter enemy over a Legendary Hero.

 

[Ovaltine]

I'm not against Erdrick, I am emphatically pro-Slime. In a post-Piranha Plant world, I can and will unironically support a generic-yet-iconic random-encounter enemy over a Legendary Hero.

In terms of personal opinion, yeah, I honestly would prefer to see Slime over one of the heroes. Slimes are adorable. Bury me in them, please.

 

[MattX20]

Don't forget that promotion is a huge deal for businesses. Even if someone like erdrick wouldn't sell as much in the west, it's worth a lot to showcase a hero's potential for a series that they want to sell even more in the west. I think DQ11 did alright considering the little promotion it got compared to 8 and 9 which both sold quite a bit outside japan, though a bit less than persona 5 (in the west, i mean).

I think that if a character is put a lot of care into it, that alone can m;ake it sell a lot, not to mention that online and tournaments really shows characters off. Joker just won a super major yesterday i think. That might get more people to buy him. Though obviously a lot of people probably already did, with how fun he can be.

Again, Square Enix would make the least amount of money out of this deal. They're pretty well known for wanting to get as much money as they can, and having to split any earnings or profits with 4 other parties seems like a massive downside.

 

[GoodGrief741]

The question we need to ask is, would Geno do more money worldwide than Erdrick solely in Japan? Because that's the question Square Enix Is asking.

 

[Ovaltine]

The question we need to ask is, would Geno do more money worldwide than Erdrick solely in Japan? Because that's the question Square Enix Is asking.

I'd say no if he wasn't a Mario character. His belonging to Nintendo's flagship franchise would probably give him a hefty boost in sales. That said, Erdrick is so huge in Japan and that CANNOT be understated. It's a bit of a tough call.

 

[Teeb147]

Again, Square Enix would make the least amount of money out of this deal. They're pretty well known for wanting to get as much money as they can, and having to split any earnings or profits with 4 other parties seems like a massive downside.

Well, not in the context i was talking about, because companies spend tons of money on promotion anyway.They did it for DQ8 and 9, but not as much for 11. You gotta spend money to make money as they say. They probably didn't spend any if this is the case anyway.

I do think e3 would be a big part of it too (just speculating)

 

[MattX20]

The question we need to ask is, would Geno do more money worldwide than Erdrick solely in Japan? Because that's the question Square Enix Is asking.

Well, considering they don't have to split more money between other parties as they're the sole company owning the character, Geno financially would give them the most money out of the deal.

 

[Ovaltine]

Well, considering they don't have to split more money between other parties as they're the sole company owning the character, Geno financially would give them the most money out of the deal.

Then there's also weighing out the fact that Erdrick will sell immensely in Japan versus how debatable Geno's sales could be. With the split in profits, would Erdrick's sales profit Square enough to override any sales Geno would make, even when the profits would be split between just Square and Nintendo versus Square, Armor Project, Bird Studio, and Nintendo? There are a lot of factors to keep in mind.

 

[SSGuy]

The question we need to ask is, would Geno do more money worldwide than Erdrick solely in Japan? Because that's the question Square Enix Is asking.

If Europeans received SMRPG like everyone else did, I would say 100% Geno would be more profitable. I believe most of Japan's audience who appreciate Erdrick do in fact appreciate Geno. The edge Geno has over Erdrick with the North American audience should play a big part in the decision making. Japan loves both. Maybe Erdrick would be their pick over Geno but both would be considered satisfactory picks.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

If Europeans ~~weren't so stingy~~ (or received the game like everyone else), I would say 100% Geno would be more profitable. I believe most of Japan's audience who appreciate Erdrick do in fact appreciate Geno.

It's really hard to say because Geno was the 3rd most wanted character in the Japan poll for Brawl right behind King Dedede and Diddy Kong. Sakurai even said he wanted to put Geno in Brawl, but Square-Enix probably wasn't okay with the idea at the time.

 

[Teeb147]

If Europeans received SMRPG like everyone else did, I would say 100% Geno would be more profitable. I believe most of Japan's audience who appreciate Erdrick do in fact appreciate Geno. The edge Geno has over Erdrick with the North American audience should play a big part in the decision making. Japan loves both. Maybe Erdrick would be their pick over Geno but both would be considered satisfactory picks.

Well if youre only talking about japan, it's hard to compare to dragon quest and erdrick there. Mario rpg sold 1.47 million there. Dragon quest III sold probably over 7 million with the different ports, and then the series itself is on another level.

 

[SSGuy]

It's really hard to say because Geno was the 3rd most wanted character in the Japan poll for Brawl right behind King Dedede and Diddy Kong. Sakurai even said he wanted to put Geno in Brawl, but Square-Enix probably wasn't okay with the idea at the time.

Square Enix only believes in DLC. Their history with games and guest characters indicate this. Games like Tekken, Soul Calibur 6, all have post game DLC planned and revealed weeks after the game's initial launch. Smash is a different story but the idea of how difficult it was to get Cloud into the game for the base roster is just more evidence.

There is also a slight contradiction with the idea that Square Enix shot down Geno that should at least be addressed where Reggie mentioned that no 3rd party company has ever turned down a character being requested into Smash Bros. Not to say that Sakurai implied Square said no to Geno, but the rumor of that being the reason seems to raise some red flags. We probably will never know who is telling the truth.

 

[Ovaltine]

There is also a slight contradiction with the idea that Square Enix shot down Geno that should at least be addressed where Reggie mentioned that no 3rd party company has ever turned down a character being requested into Smash Bros. Not to say that Sakurai implied Square said no to Geno, but the rumor of that being the reason seems to raise some red flags. We probably will never know who is telling the truth.

That's already been contradicted by Sakurai himself, who said that some characters that placed high on the ballot were rejected during negotiations. Reggie, being president of NoA and not NoJ, only knew so much. Sakurai's word is the one to pay attention to, and he said there were rejections, at least for Brawl (Geno) and Smash 4 (characters that placed higher than Bayonetta).

 

[SSGuy]

Well if youre only talking about japan, it's hard to compare to dragon quest and erdrick there. Mario rpg sold 1.47 million there. Dragon quest III sold probably over 7 million with the different ports, and then the series itself is on another level.

If we take into account the VC sales and SNES Mini sales (whether they are a result of solely wanting Mario RPG or not), the number should be much larger than 1.47 million. Considering you are counting all DQIII sales with different ports, it is fair game to consider a much larger number for Super Mario RPG's argument.

Not claiming Mario RPG sold more than DQIII in Japan, but something to note.

 

[Teeb147]

If we take into account the VC sales and SNES Mini sales (whether they are a result of solely wanting Mario RPG or not), the number should be much larger than 1.47 million. Considering you are counting all DQIII sales with different ports, it is fair game to consider a much larger number.

Not claiming Mario RPG sold more than DQIII in Japan, but something to note.

Sure. There's been vc ports and collections for DQIII too. I didn't see the numbers for the mobile downloads either. It should be decently high.

I've also tried to find something about cloud being hard to get for the base roster but it could be just rumors. There was one insider who said it was pricey, but not anything about being difficult.

 

[Ovaltine]

Sure. There's been vc ports and collections for DQIII too. I didn't see the numbers for the mobile downloads either. It should be decently high.

I've also tried to find something about cloud being hard to get for the base roster but it could be just rumors. There was one insider who said it was pricey, but not anything about being difficult.

It's entirely rumors. The only solid information we have about Cloud is Tansut claiming that he was pricey (which is an assumption we can make based on the fact that it's freaking Cloud, anyway) and the lack of content FF has in Smash, the latter of which could be for a host of reasons, namely copyright issues.

 

[Teeb147]

It's entirely rumors. The only solid information we have about Cloud is Tansut claiming that he was pricey (which is an assumption we can make based on the fact that it's freaking Cloud, anyway) and the lack of content FF has in Smash, the latter of which could be for a host of reasons, namely copyright issues.

The music i can understand a bit, but there being no spirits does make it seem like SE was a bit stingy. Not sure that would change much for any SE rep, but i'm definitely curious what would show up with one for dlc.

 

[Ovaltine]

The music i can understand a bit, but there being no spirits does make it seem like SE was a bit stingy. Not sure that would change much for any SE rep, but i'm definitely curious what would show up with one for dlc.

All I can say is, whichever rep we get, I sincerely hope they get a decent amount of content instead of, "Hey, here's two tracks and like, four spirits for a spirit board, enjoy!"

 

[Teeb147]

All I can say is, whichever rep we get, I sincerely hope they get a decent amount of content instead of, "Hey, here's two tracks and like, four spirits for a spirit board, enjoy!"

Me too. But personally it wouldn't be overly a big deal for me, I'm more focused on the characters themselves. Altho imagining some cool stages getting the same love that joker's did seems pretty awesome
Or even one like castlevania where monsters to attack can show up too. i think it can still be fun depending on how they do it.

 

[TemporalShrew]

All I can say is, whichever rep we get, I sincerely hope they get a decent amount of content instead of, "Hey, here's two tracks and like, four spirits for a spirit board, enjoy!"

All I ask is that, regardless of how many tracks they allow... can they let at least one have a remix this time?

 

[Ovaltine]

Me too. But personally it wouldn't be overly a big deal for me, I'm more focused on the characters themselves. Altho imagining some cool stages getting the same love that joker's did seems pretty awesome
Or even one like castlevania where monsters to attack can show up too. i think it can still be fun depending on how they do it.

Personally, same here. I don't care if Geno comes with a stage and, while I'd especially love some SMRPG music and remixes, I wouldn't even be too vexed if he came without those. I just want my boy, man. I just want my boy to come back...

 

[Teeb147]

Personally, same here. I don't care if Geno comes with a stage and, while I'd especially love some SMRPG music and remixes, I wouldn't even be too vexed if he came without those. I just want my boy, man. I just want my boy to come back...

Ya. Well a stage is guaranteed for the dlc character right now. Altho i still dont rule out the idea of a bonus dlc character that wouldnt have any. But anyway forest maze or star road or anywhere in smrpg would still be cool ;p

 

[Datboigeno]

I already consider the Smash fan base as it appears online to be a vocal minority of Smash players because that’s just how it works for any game that sells 13+ million copies. Then within that community, very few people actually have some specific “anime swords person” bias that affects anything about how they conduct themselves. Much of that conglomerate tend to be more critical of specifically Fire Emblem and failing to vocalize that’s their issue and just go with the “anime swordsman” complaint wholesale. And even then, the anti anime swordsman people will often times come to the defense of the characters they like that use a sword like Isaac (Don’t give me that he could be more unique than others, the same can be said of Erdrick and a ton of other characters people resent for just being more of the same before they’ve been released and have actually shown anything off).

It comes off as a ****ty way to delegitimize the character choices that other people want and criticize a character they’ve never even seen. It’s not something that holds up to scrutiny when so few characters even fit that description and those that do, play quite differently from one another (Ironically the anime sword wielded Echo fighters are the most unique compared to their original base counterparts bar Ken who is just a semi-clone labeled as an Echo). There’s no aesthetic boundaries to Smash either and anime is entirely too broad of a term to use in criticism like that.

So, while I don’t have any data on that (and no one ever will), I have complete confidence in calling it a complaint leveled by a vocal minority of Smash fans. Especially when Sakurai has included 13 characters in Ultimate so far and a single Echo has included a sword in those 13 new characters... Like this hasn’t been an issue since Smash 4 at this point, and back then it wasn’t much of an issue since base Smash 4 only added 4 with Lucian, Shulk, Mii Sword-fighter, and only sort of Robin. Then Cloud and Corrin showed up via DLC with Corrin having stupidly specific circumstances to get included at all.

Yeah I think you’re underestimating how many people don’t want non-sword jrpg protagonists which may just come down to bias. Plenty of people have seen Erdrick. He’s as generic as a generic JRPG protagonist can be. That’s the point. He’s a self-insert blank slate character. So it shouldn’t be surprising that people wouldn’t be that stoked to put money on someone that for all appearances doesn’t seem that interesting. Sakurai himself added piranha plant because he didn’t want to do another straight up generic protagonist. Even if there was only one new sword character added in SSBU it shouldn’t be a shocker that people would prefer different kinds of characters.

The question we need to ask is, would Geno do more money worldwide than Erdrick solely in Japan? Because that's the question Square Enix Is asking.

I would say it’d be very likely. Geno was highly voted in both Japan and in America for years now as a potential Smash character. Any edge Erdrick would have in Japan would be edged out by more people worldwide being willing to buy a fan favorite character that’s been more anticipated for Smash specifically than a character they don’t know or care about.

 

[Teeb147]

Yeah I think you’re underestimating how many people don’t want non-sword jrpg protagonists which may just come down to bias. Plenty of people have seen Erdrick. He’s as generic as a generic JRPG protagonist can be. That’s the point. He’s a self-insert blank slate character. So it shouldn’t be surprising that people wouldn’t be that stoked to put money on someone that for all appearances doesn’t seem that interesting. Sakurai himself added piranha plant because he didn’t want to do another straight up generic protagonist. Even if there was only one new sword character added in SSBU it shouldn’t be a shocker that people would prefer different kinds of characters.



I would say it’d be very likely. Geno was highly voted in both Japan and in America for years now as a potential Smash character. Any edge Erdrick would have in Japan would be edged out by more people worldwide being willing to buy a fan favorite character that’s been more anticipated for Smash specifically than a character they don’t know or care about.

If erdrick'd be in, there's no way sakurai wouldn't make them interesting, just like cloud and joker. DQIII is a game he likes too.

 

[Datboigeno]

If erdrick'd be in, there's no way sakurai wouldn't make them interesting, just like cloud and joker. DQIII is a game he likes too.

The thing is though you make do with what you’re working with. I don’t doubt he’d try to make Erdrick interesting. But even just at face value as a comparison Cloud and Joker are very much not the picture of a blank slate generic JRPG protagonist in the way that Erdrick is. There’s an idiom out there regarding polishing things when doing so has limited value that I think relates to this in a way. If the effort Sakurai would have to go through to make Erdrick stand out from other sword users/be interesting would be a challenge then wouldn’t it have made more sense for him to pick a different/more unique DQ character like Slime or another SE character?

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

If erdrick'd be in, there's no way sakurai wouldn't make them interesting, just like cloud and joker. DQIII is a game he likes too.

It's just my opinion, but Cloud/Joker and their "run around stalling until meter gets full" playstyle isn't very interesting to me

 

[Teeb147]

The thing is though you make do with what you’re working with. Even just at face value Cloud and Joker are very much not the picture of a blank slate generic JRPG protagonist in the way that Erdrick is. There’s an idiom out there regarding polishing things when doing so has limited value that I think relates to this in a way. If the effort Sakurai would have to go through to make Erdrick stand out from other sword users/be interesting would be a challenge then wouldn’t it have made more sense for him to pick a different DQ character like Slime or another SE character?

Only people who dont know too deep on dragon quest consider it generic jrpg. There's so much in the series that can be used that's far from bland. Sakurai wouldnt have to make challenging effort since he'd put love into it, too.

People who think that erdrick would necessarily only use a sword dont know much about it either. Depends what sakurai wants to do tho, really.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Any edge Erdrick would have in Japan would be edged out by more people worldwide being willing to buy a fan favorite character that’s been more anticipated for Smash specifically than a character they don’t know or care about.

If that were the case we'd be getting a very different DLC roster. Even if fan favorites would sell better (which I think they would) it's clear the people making the calls don't think so.