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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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KCCHIEFS27

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lol at anyone who actually says this might be the only wave of DLC. The chances that Ultimate gets less DLC characters than smash 4 did on a dying console is laughable.

As a side note to this Erdrick thing, never in smash history has a DLC character even come close to being leaked as far out as Erdrick rumblings have been happening. By the time he’s revealed it’ll be close to a year since the first leaks. Not saying he isn’t in (if I had to bet I’d say he is) but just that the situation he’s in is unprecedented.

Honestly I’m not even expecting Geno in Wave 1 so i’m not too worried lately. Wave 1 is for casuals who won’t be playing the game past this year.

Waves 2 and later are for the devoted fans who are still playing the game and haven’t moved on to Fortnite 2 by then
 

EricTheGamerman

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Yeah, agree or disagree, we really don't know what if anything is holding Geno back, but based on the fact that he has a sizeable fanbase and Nintendo knows it (and acknowledged it with a mii costume), we have to conclude that SOMETHING is holding him back. At least for now. The rest of the DLC will tell an interesting story, that's for sure.
The whole SOMETHING holding Geno back is far more likely to be on Nintendo's end than on Square's though.

One of the areas I think I tend to diverge the most from supporters comes in how I analyze his chances. And the fact of the matter is that Geno's just never been in a great spot. What does Geno bring to the table, without stretching to apply him with more status than he honestly has? He's a fan request that represents Super Mario RPG... That's it. That's Geno's entire claim to fame and what he would represent.

It's difficult to make any claims about him representing Mario RPGs in total because he's from a single game and he is a less recognizable face from them overall given that fact. I see the whole, he can represent the time when Square and Nintendo worked so well together thing thrown around from time to time. But think about that for a second, do Nintendo and Square really care about representing that specific moment in their history, or is just having Cloud enough to really just say, "Hey, we're cool and working together." No other third party has a specific moment in their history really represented like that. It's just collaboration on their biggest titles in Smash, and Final Fantasy already fills that role.

He can't be promotion for anything unless Nintendo and Square have some specific ace up their sleeve with a Super Mario RPG remake or some sort of sequel. People can claim the SNES Classic, but the issue is that Nintendo didn't really take those systems seriously as Reggie says in this interview: https://kotaku.com/nintendo-s-reggie-fils-aime-on-hopes-for-an-n64-classic-1830465672. They weren't meant to be some sort of additional pillar for Nintendo, they were stop-gaps planned in the transition of the Wii U to Switch era. He also can't just come back as a Mario spinoff character because that would require the approval and dealings with Square Enix for his every appearance. I doubt Nintendo wants to have to deal with a third party when making something like Mario Kart or Mario Tennis.

Geno's a tough sale with all that in mind. Sure, Nintendo and Sakurai have given us fan favorites, but as we're all painfully aware at this point, that means relatively nothing for the rest of them. No fan favorite is guaranteed a spot on the roster, and even such an easily accessible character with a big fan base like Isaac didn't make it in. Bandanna Dee isn't in the game and he's an actively promoted Nintendo character of the past few years. Those are just a couple of examples.

And then you bring Square into the mix. Nobody really knows the narrative on Square's involvement in Smash. We're all just sort of guessing and inferring based upon the current situation. If Square Enix is so bad and difficult to work with though, that definitely does nothing but go against Geno. People often present the fact that Geno's so easy as a positive virtue of his chances, but is it. If Square is such a pain in the ass to work with, Nintendo has no reason to want to even bother. Why go through all of the work to get just Geno when he doesn't do anything other than satisfy some fans? There's a lot of other picks they can choose that don't have the Square baggage at that point and will satisfy lots of people. Suddenly, him being easier doesn't mean much of anything.

If Square's mean amiable, then another issue presents itself. Square has lots of IPs to potentially choose from, many of which are extremely popular. If you've got Square on the line, I think it could be very tempting for Nintendo to go for something bigger at that point. Super Mario RPG's one game, Dragon Quest is a 30 year long franchise that has been massive in Japan and console RPGs owe their existence to the series. Sure, you can go for the fan option at that point, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Nintendo more interested in doing something shocking or "giving fans something they didn't even know they wanted."

I don't see either narrative as super beneficial to Geno to be completely honest. And this is all kind of a moot point though... Square already agreed to Geno in the past as a Mii costume. A company like Nintendo goes to ask Square for the rights to use that character and they seem to have had no issues agreeing the last time Nintendo went for the rights. Which then leaves us with Nintendo and Sakurai. For the reasons I've discussed above, I think Geno may be a pretty difficult sale or pitch. How do you prioritize him in that mess if you're at Nintendo, or even Sakurai potentially?



I bring all of this up to achieve both to establish the idea that Geno is far from some lock character without the supposed interference of Square and also to shed light on my own personal pessimism surrounding his chances. This post is not to act as an attack towards anyone or even one singular opinion really. It's also to attempt to work from the perspective of Nintendo and Sakurai who have much more to work with and more people to satisfy than just us.

I don't personally agree that they should come to the conclusion of "no Geno" even with all those considerations and I think they should 100% go for him. There's few other characters that would show a commitment to fan demand like including a character who has no other business being in the game and Smash seems to have only moved more in that direction for Ultimate. That said, for the reasons above, I don't necessarily blame anyone who may decide against him as well and could very easily see why they might just not consider him a priority.

And that's my thing. We just have to convince Sakurai and Nintendo that he needs to be a priority. Because as soon as he is, he'll be in the game. I'll be honest, I have no idea what that entails. The most logical path to me is to just keep growing the community and not giving up the support for Geno. Even if I'm pretty pessimistic about his chances at this point, I'm still talking about him and willing to do whatever I can. We've seen the community grow a lot around Ultimate, and stuff like the tons of fan art can help raise heads. I think we have to just be persistent. That can be a thankless task, I'm well aware, but it's part of sticking to a character no matter what. Square doesn't have much of a stake in Smash. Directing our efforts toward them isn't going to help much unless we get some sort of indication that they do need further convincing for Geno's inclusion. Until then, Nintendo is and always should be our primary target in directing love and energy for Geno. He may be a tough sell, but that's why we love him and that's why we'll keep pushing.

And there are some hopeful signs right now. The Super Mario RPG references are starting to feel a little like a lot of smoke, so the question is if there is an actual fire coming later in the DLC is a more interesting one. He's still an old guard fan favorite, so his name and awareness have been kept up to varying degrees since his heyday (which honestly is probably eclipsed by the current moment) during Brawl. We've seen lots of strides toward making fan favorites playable, so that's only good news for him as well. I'm not yet convinced he's not DLC. I'm super optimistic about him, but I'm not throwing in the towel yet.



Sorry for the long post again, this is probably the rawest display of all my thoughts surrounding Geno in a very long time...
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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lol at anyone who actually says this might be the only wave of DLC. The chances that Ultimate gets less DLC characters than smash 4 did on a dying console is laughable.

Waves 2 and later are for the devoted fans who are still playing the game and haven’t moved on to Fortnite 2 by then
One thing that gets me...Sakurai has openly shown vocal admiration for what other games (presumably fighting ones) are doing in regards to content, so how would one see him stopping with 5 DLC characters? Sure, he can use the bedrest once all is said and done, but we can't be sure that he won't push himself a little further to make as many people happy as possible.
 

kiteinthesky

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Honestly, it's pretty damn sad. The fan favorites post-ballot that got Mii costumes as a result of the ballot (or at least probably had a hand in it)? Isabelle, Inkling, K. Rool? They got to be playable. Geno? His costume isn't even back and we don't know if it will be, he's a spirit, and he's not going to be DLC. He's one of, if not the only one, that got that treatment. No SMRPG music, no other spirits beyond him and Mallow, no Mii outfit... just two spirits.

He just... got done so damn dirty. Everyone else got promoted, but Geno got demoted. I don't think I'll ever not be bitter about that.
Which makes no sense considering we know there was positive support for his inclusion before. Sakurai *wanted* him on the roster, yet we don't get so much as an Assist Trophy? Something's up.
 

N3ON

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Honestly, it's pretty damn sad. The fan favorites post-ballot that got Mii costumes as a result of the ballot (or at least probably had a hand in it)? Isabelle, Inkling, K. Rool? They got to be playable. Geno? His costume isn't even back and we don't know if it will be, he's a spirit, and he's not going to be DLC. He's one of, if not the only one, that got that treatment. No SMRPG music, no other spirits beyond him and Mallow, no Mii outfit... just two spirits.

He just... got done so damn dirty. Everyone else got promoted, but Geno got demoted. I don't think I'll ever not be bitter about that.
Which makes no sense considering we know there was positive support for his inclusion before. Sakurai *wanted* him on the roster, yet we don't get so much as an Assist Trophy? Something's up.
It's not overly complex, no third-parties got Mii costumes in base. Most will probably show up again as DLC.
 

RetrogamerMax

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We are here! We have surpassed the Brawl thread twice! :surprised:

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2019...out-because-masahiro-sakurai-loved-persona-5/

I hope Sakurai's bias pulls through for our home boi Geno!
Square... seriously, let Geno go!!!
I think Sakurai bias will be enough, but if only Square-Enix allows him to be a option for Sakurai to choose to begin with.

It's near impossible at this point that Erdrick isn't in. The question is if we're getting any more S-E characters.
I know we should always tamper expectations, but DQ fans should rejoice. I know I am, even though my top pick wasn't chosen
If the rumor is true that Square-Enix wanted Cloud to be DLC again, than I believe there is a good chance we could get more than 1 character from them as DLC. For Sakurai to have mange to talk them into putting Cloud into base is a sign we could be getting more than 2 Square-Enix characters as DLC because SE might have Sakurai and Nintendo on the hook to give them more fighters.
 
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MajoraMan28

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Expectation is one thing, but I think it's worth always keeping some hope, at least for those that want to continue supporting him(including for the future). He's got more chance than a lot of other characters, considering everything. But I know it's disappointing when you had your sights on him. I'm sorry about that and I hope you feel better and enjoy smash anyway, and feel good in general.

And frankly I'm not gonna celebrate until we get proper reveals. There's always such things as high-level rumors or leakbaits. I just have more hope for DQ, and i really want to know for sure, hopefully nintendo doesnt make us wait some more for too long.
It's near impossible at this point that Erdrick isn't in. The question is if we're getting any more S-E characters.
I know we should always tamper expectations, but DQ fans should rejoice. I know I am, even though my top pick wasn't chosen
 

GoodGrief741

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I think what's holding Geno back is actually Sakurai. His vision for Smash, as it turns out, is to make Smash the biggest gaming crossover. I think while we wants to add Geno, he might feel like he's not enough of a big deal to get him over some of SE's giant franchises. This would be Sakurai doing the selfless thing in his mind and sacrificing a personal want for his vision.
 

Teeb147

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It's near impossible at this point that Erdrick isn't in. The question is if we're getting any more S-E characters.
I know we should always tamper expectations, but DQ fans should rejoice. I know I am, even though my top pick wasn't chosen
I'm fine if people want to think that, but I ain't rejoicing until the fat slime sings. :smirk:

I do prefer to keep it open and mystery and finally see the reveal. Plus we never know anyway. And, I think if there's future dlc waves that SE has good chances to get another character in too.
 

Ovaltine

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It's not overly complex, no third-parties got Mii costumes in base. Most will probably show up again as DLC.
Oh, of course, I know that. It's more a matter of whether Square will even allow the Geno outfit to be resold again. I kinda have a bad feeling about it...
 

Loliko YnT

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I'm not going to act like I supported Geno for over 10 years (I started to support him right after the august direct) but... I'm stubborn.

I don't think Geno is a complete pipe dream (because oh boy I have some) , but he's in a pretty complicated spot.
Smash will be very hard for him , I would even be happy to see him as a mii costume so I have a reason to play mii gunner (And the Chibi costume is... I dunno , it look weird... ) and start making montages about the lil' doll. He can happen , but his best shot in my opinion is a stand alone DLC fighter , if Square is okay with it.
This first fighter pass will probably be """big and hype characters toward everyone"" , they probably want to cover a lot of ground with that : Joker show it.
He's from a popular game that will get to the switch , he had some smash support (Alpharad wanted him , and the dude wanted Bayonetta.), he's unique enough to be able to convince people to buy him for his moveset... And he represent ATLUS.

He cover a lot of ground , something that a lot of fan favorites sadly can't do.

That's why I litteraly don't expect fan favorites to get in for this pass. (Banjo and Kazooie are 50/50 for me , they have a good shot because they would represent Microsoft)

HOWEVER...

People who'll still be playing past 2/3 years will be their most important target audiance after the first fighter pass.

A lot of players will move on from Smash , especially casuals. While Smash is a blast with the right peoples... There is a ton of others games on the switch that will eventually grab their attention.

So , that's when I would expect to see more fan request , alongside a interesting promo pickor two. (Don't try to defend Corrin and make a case for him/her to me. A third of the character is unique stuff , the rest is déjà-vu.)
They don't even need to add a stage or music if they want to save ressources , people who still play the game past this point are often competitive players , and Smash fans.

Since casuals aren't there anymore , why bother trying to cover a ton of ground at once ? Just give them the characters they wanted , they could even do another ballot. But , I think first/second party characters will have a better shot since they will be plain ol' easier to add.
Of course , these characters could still promote some stuff , like BWD could promote a new Kirby game.

Geno could work here , since Cloud is already in the game , and maybe Erdrick (NOTHING IS A LOCK IN SMASH SPECULATION) , why not ? Not too hard to negotiate , will give them easy DLC money , and he would be a nice base to soft reboot the Mario RPGs. (Don't get rid of the Mario and Luigi and Paper Mario universe , just change the gameplay and kill some of the patterns of these games.) He is profitable...

But this will only work if Geno supporters , and SMRPG lovers are vocal enough. That's why I heavily support Operation Starfall.
 

Ovaltine

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Honestly, after ruminating, I think yesterday was the big emotional bout I needed to finally come to acceptance that Geno isn't in... but I'm not about to give up hope outside of that.

His fanbase has increased exponentially lately. SNES Classic and Wii U gave us SMRPG ported twice over, and more and more fans are popping up out of the woodwork. People have been making fan content. People have been loud. Operation Starfall is still in the works and the site is coming along. After the site is finished, we have connections already to make it really blow up.

Do I think he's coming in the Fighter's Pass? Absolutely not. That said, we can't keep quiet and give up. I'm still going to fight for him to make it outside of the pass somehow, and if not, some kind of return for him to the Mario series is all I want. It's all I ever wanted.

I'm not done fighting. I'm just gonna move my goal posts a bit.
 

Wunderwaft

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I want to put my two cents on Geno as well. Regardless of how obscure Geno is or how long it's been since he appeared in a game, the fact that he continues to have support for Smash to this day despite his misgivings should stand as a testament for how strong his fan support is. Even if he doesn't get in this game he will still continue to have a presence in the next Smash game.

Geno doesn't represent any specific idea besides fan support. He doesn't represent the collaboration between Nintendo and Square Enix since Cloud seems to have already covered that and represents the idea that Nintendo and Square Enix have mended their split. He doesn't represent the SNES era since plenty of other characters in Smash do that just fine. I would even say he doesn't represent the Mario series since he stopped appearing in them for over two decades. Geno is a character that represents fan support, and persists to this day because of fan support. If he ever gets in Smash it will be entirely because of fan support.

The inclusion of Geno in Smash would be a loud and clear message that truly any video game character can get in Smash, no matter how obscure they are, as long as their fans continue to hold true to their support and become big and vocal.
 

Looma

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(NOTHING IS A LOCK IN SMASH SPECULATION)
This needs to be stressed a lot more, for the love of god. In case Erdrick suffers a case of the ole "sorry nothing", fans need to have a cushion ready for the fall, especially if they have any level of emotional investment in the outcome.

Seen here, a Rhythm Heaven fan:
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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This needs to be stressed a lot more, for the love of god. In case Erdrick suffers a case of the ole "sorry nothing", fans need to have a cushion ready for the fall, especially if they have any level of emotional investment in the outcome.

Seen here, a Rhythm Heaven fan:
Yeah. This feels a little too convenient, like you think you've got the puzzle all figured out, only to find out by the end that some pieces of it are missing.

In the event he isn't in here, the fallout's going to be big.
 

Ovaltine

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Yeah. This feels a little too convenient, like you think you've got the puzzle all figured out, only to find out by the end that some pieces of it are missing.

In the event he isn't in here, the fallout's going to be big.
I can see why it'd seem that way, but Tansut's explanation made me reach an epiphany. An internal leak of some kind with Square had ruffled some feathers, right? This was preceding the whole 'Square Seven' thing. The fact that this happened and so many people are so certain about Erdrick makes connecting the dots pretty easy. That information was on lock-down, but it somehow got out, and now it's so widely-known that it can't be kept a surprise or contained anymore. It'd explain why their 'feathers were ruffled'.
 
D

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This needs to be stressed a lot more, for the love of god. In case Erdrick suffers a case of the ole "sorry nothing", fans need to have a cushion ready for the fall, especially if they have any level of emotional investment in the outcome.

Seen here, a Rhythm Heaven fan:
Yeah. This feels a little too convenient, like you think you've got the puzzle all figured out, only to find out by the end that some pieces of it are missing.

In the event he isn't in here, the fallout's going to be big.
I agree. Many people are showing they haven't learned from previous Smash speculation when they act like Erdrick is a lock.
 

The Anigriffin

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I’d still like an actual reason why I should trust any leaker at this point. Only one who I believe at all at this point is is Polar.

I’m not trusting anyone until the second character drops. This is way too convienient for me to just accept.

I think we all just need to relax and ignore these nobodies online since all they’re doing is splitting the fandom down the middle.
 

xpnc

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Going off of what KCCHIEFS27 KCCHIEFS27 said earlier I would expect a Smash DLC announcement at every E3 for the remainder of the Switch's lifespan
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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I’d still like an actual reason why I should trust any leaker at this point. Only one who I believe at all at this point is is Polar.

I’m not trusting anyone until the second character drops. This is way too convienient for me to just accept.

I think we all just need to relax and ignore these nobodies online since all they’re doing is splitting the fandom down the middle.
What about Best Buy? :4pacman:

Going off of what KCCHIEFS27 KCCHIEFS27 said earlier I would expect a Smash DLC announcement at every E3 for the remainder of the Switch's lifespan
There's still the VGAs, too.
 
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D

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No it isn't lmao. Someone else already found the source of the model, and this blurry image was posted on 4chan first and foremost.

Alpharad's just messing with y'all.
I think they were just posting that link as a joke
 

Ovaltine

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I think they were just posting that link as a joke
Whatever the case, it's obviously fake. Sakurai was strictly against adding animanga characters. Even if Nintendo provided a list and Goku was on it, that would be vetoed so fast.
 

6eyondthegrave

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No it isn't lmao. Someone else already found the source of the model, and this blurry image was posted on 4chan first and foremost.

Alpharad's just messing with y'all.
Thanks for the clarity. I like Goku, but I wouldn’t want him or any other anime character in smash. I like that smash is focused on video game franchises only.
 

MattX20

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It's near impossible at this point that Erdrick isn't in. The question is if we're getting any more S-E characters.
I know we should always tamper expectations, but DQ fans should rejoice. I know I am, even though my top pick wasn't chosen
Again, based on what exactly says that Erdrick is guarenteed? The insiders couldn't even agree on Erdrick, and now they're saying the Square character is 3rd or 4th.
 
D

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Whatever the case, it's obviously fake. Sakurai was strictly against adding animanga characters. Even if Nintendo provided a list and Goku was on it, that would be vetoed so fast.
I knew that lmao. You don't need to tell me.
 

Datboigeno

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I don't understand the point of losing one's **** over one "leaker" who has literally only leaked one thing before several years ago saying he heard Erdrick in December. To me Erdrick seems more like leakbait than anything considering Nintendo has obviously been baiting leakers much more heavily this time around. I mean did people just forget the direct we got couple months ago where a bunch of games that were "leaked" like a Star Fox racer ended up being complete bull****? Wasn't it not that long ago that a special someone who has all but gone silent on leaks was gauranteeing Steve for ssbu? And now it's basically looking like that was bull**** too. I really think some people here have an issue where they see one negative thing about a character's chances, get depressed and pessimistic, and try to get everyone in the thread to be just as pessimistic as they are. It's dumb tbh. I think people should look at the overall context of events before completely throwing in the towel.
 

Ovaltine

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I really think some people here have an issue where they see one negative thing about a character's chances, get depressed and pessimistic, and try to get everyone in the thread to be just as pessimistic as they are.
Yeah, I was definitely really low and guilty of that yesterday. Sorry about that, guys.
 

Datboigeno

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Yeah, I was definitely really low and guilty of that yesterday. Sorry about that, guys.
It's cool, man. I have issues with anxiety as well and there's been many a time where I'd perseverate and spiral in my anxiety regarding a specific topic. It's just good to practice mindfulness when that happens and take a step back rather than getting tangled up in negative thoughts.
 
D

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Knowing y'all, I assume this was already posted but I'm gonna post it anyways

Because holy **** I just found out that Yoko actually made a modern version of Goodbye Geno and it sounds beautiful.

 

MattX20

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That's news to me, mind elaborating on that please? Them goalposts keep moving on up.
From what I remember, it was the leakers that didn't agree with Vergeben and his source of information. At least, that's what I think it was. It was a while ago when that post here in Smashboards first mentioned it.
 

Loliko YnT

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Knowing y'all, I assume this was already posted but I'm gonna post it anyways

Because holy **** I just found out that Yoko actually made a modern version of Goodbye Geno and it sounds beautiful.

Yoko Shimomura compositions are just perfect.
Damn , this make me rember that I wanted Mario and Luigi tracks to be remixed for smash... Not gonna complain , still got a good ammounts of rips , while Paper Mario only get two music tracks.

Also yeah , about Erdrick... Already told what I want from him. (Not beeing unbalanced like Sm4sh Cloud , bring DQ games to the switch , bonus point if he doesn't use his sword for half of his moveset)

As to his chances ? I... Honestly don't know. They're all based on leaks. And yeah , LoZ18 leaked the E3 presentation (don't tell me he was guessing , he put ****ing Ridley on the list of characters ) , Vergeben got Ken , Incineroar and Isabelle right , alongside the Isaac AT.

... And? Vergeben apparently knew about Plant one day before the reveal... Nobody guessed Joker.
And except the 4CHAN text leak with Ryu Hayabusa , Erdrick , Joker , Steve and Doom Marina...

I don't know... There has to be something with Square. I doubt Vergeben would lie about the Square rep , otherwise he would just have said Geno or Sora and well... He wouldn't be correct. (I mean yeah , there's a case for Sora , but you get my point...)

And as DatBoiGeno said , Erdrick could very well be leakbait... Even toward DQ fans. Most of them wanted Slime or Eight , even in Japan. I mean yeah , not a hard leakbait for them but... If he's the real deal... Why using Geno as leakbait ? Even more while saying "don't take him seriously"?

Why acknowledging that people want him , but use him as a leakbait? Shouldn't leakbait be also used to lower expectations? It's just fishy , especially the "don't take him seriously"... But it could just be Vergeben hate for Geno...

Man , it's so hard to speculate about leaks , we're always in a grey area...

Just one thing that annoy me :

Don't dismiss what Geno had before the november direct (Appearing 2 times in smash , the 22nd tweet anniversary ect) , because he still has it. All of what he have is still valid.
 

N3ON

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Oh, of course, I know that. It's more a matter of whether Square will even allow the Geno outfit to be resold again. I kinda have a bad feeling about it...
They allowed the Spirit. If Nintendo is willing to pay for it again (which, as presumably one of the better selling costumes, they probably would be), why would Square refuse the costume?

Seems like untoward pessimism to me.
 
D

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People should be extra careful with Edrick, otherwise they will fall into the "Chrom Syndrome".

Back in the Smash 4 days, everyone thought that Chrom was bascially a lock, and the "Gematsu Leak" didn't helped matters. We all know how this story went, and while Chrom got his redemption in Ultimate via echoes, not everybody else is that lucky.
 
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