Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Nekoo]

Exactly. Which means there is something new in this game that Sakurai bought the Vifam gun for

?

 

[Loliko YnT]

Wait Iv'e just realized something.

You can't buy the fighter pass individually. It's only available in the SSBU+Fighters pass article on the eshop.

You can only buy each DLC separatly. Wich make it a total of 30 dollars , not 25 dollars.

This may kill the "X character can encourage to buy the pass" argument...

 

[childishgamgeno]

Okay, so I'm back on Page 369 still and getting caught up, but I'm seeing talk about the Vifram figure and the gun again, and I had a thought.
Dataminers found that there was apparently a skipped number in the character files, like someone was planned and was later cut. Could be PP, could be a DLC fighter, could just be someone cut entirely.

Considering how far back Sakurai got the Vifram figure and how it doesn't match up to anything we've seen in the base game at all, how Vergeben has known about the second SE character for quite a while and how that predated Sakurai saying the DLC characters were finalized (meaning it's been basically a given for quite a while), how Vergeben has also said the second SE character will be the first DLC fighter, how Sakurai has specifically name-dropped Geno as someone he wanted to add + gotten the ability to use him and his music for SSB4 and in Ultimate, how Nintendo dropped a random SMRPG reference on their Twitter a while back, how an artist at NoA said that Geno was a "hot topic" in the offices sometime back in last September-ish(?), and how we've had rumors that Cloud was the last vet to be greenlit because SE was being stingy about wanting DLC.

With all that considered, is it possible that Geno was actually meant originally to be in the base roster and was maybe begun to be worked on but was later cut and moved to DLC because of Square as a concession to keep Cloud in the base game? Sakurai gets the Vifram figure early on to plan for Geno, has to cut him (leaving a skipped chardata number in the files like the dataminers found), Vergeben hears about another SE character and so that's why he's confident in that early on, and even though Geno gets cut from the base game he's still reassured from his sources that the SE character is happening which is why he doesn't back away until much later when it becomes clear they're definitively DLC instead. Because Geno was already planned, he wouldn't necessarily be starting from scratch to make, making him the easiest of the 5 DLC characters to prepare/finish, hence why he's the first. This would also explain why Nintendo brought SMRPG randomly into the public mind and acknowledged it for the first time in a long while, and also why there was a lot of Geno talk at NoA. And of course, it also explains why PolarPanda is hearing a lot about Geno from his NoA source now too.

Is that too much of a reach, to combine so many different loose plot threads?

Following your line of logic...remember when Sakurai said in his most recent interview that the team decides which characters are going to be in and that they never add or subtract characters from that groundplan? What if Geno was never technically cut at all? Just simply moved to DLC once DLC was announced because Square wasn't going to give us Geno for free?



Btdubs, a couple months ago a reddit user combined a bunch of surveys into one big survey, Geno placed pretty high. Number 4 I think. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9ejfq2/i_compiled_a_bunch_of_smash_bros_ultimate_polls/

 

[Deleted member]

?

Inkling's gun already had a 3D model, so Sakurai wouldn't have needed to buy a different type of gun for referencing, especially one that isn't ink based, so I think it is a reference for Geno's gun, especially considering that Geno's gun doesn't have any official art

 

[Deleted member]

After reading pages worth of stuff in this thread, I'm feeling confident that Geno is our Square rep. Of course, there's a possibility that we'll get Crono or Erdrick instead, but I have a ton of faith in him and feeling real good about Geno being DLC.

 

[Nekoo]

Inkling's gun already had a 3D model, so Sakurai wouldn't have needed to buy a different type of gun for referencing, especially one that isn't ink based, so I think it is a reference for Geno's gun, especially considering that Geno's gun doesn't have any official art

You don't get how 3D animation OR WHY we need thos figures. It's not a question of modeling and having reference.
It's a question of being able to have a figure to play with to poses each frames and imagine different animation.

 

[DaxMasterix]

a

?

Inkling's gun already had a 3D model, so Sakurai wouldn't have needed to buy a different type of gun for referencing, especially one that isn't ink based, so I think it is a reference for Geno's gun, especially considering that Geno's gun doesn't have any official art

Yeah, The gun must be for an old character.

 

[Deleted member]

You don't get how 3D animation OR WHY we need thos figures. It's not a question of modeling and having reference.
It's a question of being able to have a figure to play with to poses each frames and imagine different animation.

I'm not saying it is a reference to Geno, but it most likely is, considering the points I made in previous posts

 

[Rummy]

Hey Nekoo Great seeing you add more debate into this Thread.

At this point i'm pretty sure if the first DLC is a Square Enix Character, it has to hit hard and kick start the sales of the pass.

Sephiroth has Mainstream appeal
Crono has Retro appeal
Geno has Smash appeal
DQ has historical appeal

Anything goes and honestly i'd be happy with the first three the most. DQ is a bit iffy due to all the licenses and such for me.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Following your line of logic...remember when Sakurai said in his most recent interview that the team decides which characters are going to be in and that they never add or subtract characters from that groundplan? What if Geno was never technically cut at all? Just simply moved to DLC once DLC was announced because Square wasn't going to give us Geno for free?



Btdubs, a couple months ago a reddit user combined a bunch of surveys into one big survey, Geno placed pretty high. Number 4 I think. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9ejfq2/i_compiled_a_bunch_of_smash_bros_ultimate_polls/

>Noctis is the lowest ranked character

Good to see people's priorities are in check. Some of the characters above him don't deserve to be so low tho.

 

[Inawordyes]

Following your line of logic...remember when Sakurai said in his most recent interview that the team decides which characters are going to be in and that they never add or subtract characters from that groundplan? What if Geno was never technically cut at all? Just simply moved to DLC once DLC was announced because Square wasn't going to give us Geno for free?



Btdubs, a couple months ago a reddit user combined a bunch of surveys into one big survey, Geno placed pretty high. Number 4 I think. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9ejfq2/i_compiled_a_bunch_of_smash_bros_ultimate_polls/

I could buy it. Once thing I forgot to mention to that I remembered afterwards that I've also been thinking about quite a bit is

Why would they go with PP (a Mario-series character) as the FreeLC and then follow that up with Geno (a Mario-series character) as the first DLC (EDIT: if he is the SE Character in this scenario, which is still consistently likely despite the fact that everybody else around him has obvious detractions that Geno doesn't share)? What about Geno (other than him being one of the most wanted characters among fans and heavily requested and therefore encouraging a lot of people to buy into the Fighter Pass) makes him "easy" enough to include that he comes first and we have 2 Mario-series characters in a row for DLC?

Geno's already in the base game as a spirit, that means that Sakurai already has licensing rights to him in come capacity. If that's the case, he could be first because he was maybe decided first among the 5, perhaps during the negotiations for Cloud. But if that's also the case, just how early was Geno decided? And if he was decided early as DLC, who's to say he wasn't decided earlier for base too and shifted to DLC? Maybe he got worked on, maybe not.

I see the point about the third-parties being grouped together disproving him being the missing chardata fighter, but my only counter to that is that Geno is in a murky grey area of being a third-party-owned character from a first-party game, so there is a chance he wouldn't be grouped at the end with the others and treated within the files like he's not third-party because he is a Mario character (albeit one owned by Square). It's not particularly likely, but Geno, of all characters, can't be immediately dismissed in the same way that a Monster Hunter could (as the example used)

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

You know something accured to me

Final fantasy 7 is being developed for the switch.

So maybe sephiroth is more likely than we think.
(I’m pretty sure a few of you know this already)

To promote final fantasy 7 again.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

You know something accured to me

Final fantasy 7 is being developed for the switch.

So maybe sephiroth is more likely than we think.
(I’m pretty sure a few of you know this already)

To promote final fantasy 7 again.

Only problem is, they need to nerf his sword size.

 

[Nekoo]

Hey Nekoo Great seeing you add more debate into this Thread.

At this point i'm pretty sure if the first DLC is a Square Enix Character, it has to hit hard and kick start the sales of the pass.

Sephiroth has Mainstream appeal
Crono has Retro appeal
Geno has Smash appeal
DQ has historical appeal

Anything goes and honestly i'd be happy with the first three the most. DQ is a bit iffy due to all the licenses and such for me.

I love making debate and be condescending, that's my fuel to wake up everyday
But yeah, honestly, all characters on that list are worthy to be in smash and have a good cases for them.
Also, while I won't say that some of those characters have licencing issue...Let's try to not use it as a point to discard other characters to push the narative we want to happens.
And I'm mostly looking at the DQ talk y'all had. DQ is one of the rare licence alongside FF who have the Historical appeals, and also have official Mario Crossover with itadaki street which can help, and probably shows that there is a stepping stones for discussion, no matters how weirds and complicated rights might be.

They all have good chances, even if somes sources says that X doesn't happens, or Is a joke/Not serious, it's probably just the sources's bias into it.

 

[Deleted member]

You know something accured to me

Final fantasy 7 is being developed for the switch.

So maybe sephiroth is more likely than we think.
(I’m pretty sure a few of you know this already)

To promote final fantasy 7 again.

I dunno. There still only being two FF music tracks makes me think Sephiroth is unlikely. The composer of those tracks isn't affiliated with SE anymore, and they are very expensive, and I think Sakurai and Nintendo try to avoid using expensive music in Smash

 

[JarBear]

Sephiroth as a boss for WOL would have been great with the music...

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Only problem is, they need to nerf his sword size.

Believe me don’t think i know that


However Ridley would like a word with you even though it’s different subject

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I dont think the argument is that Swordusers are boring, they're just getting stale. Sure I can use Roy, Ike, and Marth who all play slightly differently, but most of the moves (honestly with the exception of Ike) are virtually the same input. Same with all the Links. Could DQ be vastly different? Of course, but theres a limit to how different, simply because he uses a sword. Geno would definitely be unique from typical gunners (which there's only really about two). Every character has a basic jab but they all have different equipment.I still think it's be a missed opportunity for Smash. That's not to say Smash wouldn't benefit from DQ, but I still don't think it would be as interesting or effective as Geno.

Hmmm but Idk, i'd still se it as an ad. Sure it's legendary, I get that, but if you look at the smash pattern happening, all the previous Mii costumes are getting upgrades to AT's or straight up Fighters. DQ was nowhere in Smash4, didn't really place on the ballot as far as we know, and isn't placing in fan polls either. Remember, DQ speculation started only this year. I agree DQ is legendary stuff. Historically legendary stuff. But as far as Smash goes, it's kinda coming out of no where. Why else would you include DQ (and do all that work to get it) over a character who already has ties to not only Smash, but Mario? History and Money, imo. Like Corrin.

And interestingly enough, with all the DQ being legendary talk, I wonder why DQ didn't get any representation in the form of a Mii Costume last game if thats the case.

The swordsmen issue boils down to really a couple of things. First off, Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem doesn't need to have all 7 characters use the sword. And if the fan base hadn't been so attached to Roy, I swear this wouldn't have been such a problem. But they all represent likable characters that people want in the game (Roy, Lucina, and Chrom) depsite the fact that they're practically identical on many levels. The Links thing is a similar issue/Sakurai for some reason really wanted there to be two versions of Link in the past few games and now "Everyone is Here." That makes the situation worse all around.

But characters like Shulk, Cloud, Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, and Meta Knight all use pretty traditional swords, but play quite differently from one another. People will irritatingly throw Greninja and Pit in there for much more limited use of blade attacks. The "swordsmen" are boring/stale/whatever argument really is only a side effect of Fire Emblem (And every majorly popular character from that series is a traditional swordsman, so blame the fandom on that one) and the Link's getting no chance for more interesting variety/sticking around. Or, really what's happening more often than not, people need a scapegoat for their frustrations with character choices. There's plenty more to be done with swordsmen that could be interesting as long as they're not exclusively based around sword attacks like the Fire Emblem characters are. I know Geno has much more potential since there are inherently less projectile based gunners in Smash and he has some really cool attributes, but I don't think anyone should discount the other choices for just being swordsmen. The community is so damn selective on how they use that criticism anyway, if we were discussing Isaac for example, few people would be as frustrated.

As for DQ in Smash. No, I don't think it has to exclusively be an advertisement. Sakurai went to Square last time and asked for a representative of the series for it's legacy. I suspect a similar situation might happen here if DQ was to get in to Smash. This massive franchise isn't currently in my giant crossover series that has lots of spotlight given to other major Japanese third party franchises, lets make another major crossover happen. I think that part of Smash gets far too overlooked in these conversations with third party characters. Every major third party that crosses over adds to the legacy of Smash as the greatest crossover in gaming, and that's a legacy that is already hard to top. The characters might not be the most popular, but I don't think Sakurai has picked many of the third party characters with that in mind. Mega Man and Sonic, yes. The others, much less so. I mean, talking on the ballot, Simon didn't exactly do amazingly either, yet he is in the game and generally speaking Bomberman was a more popular pick from what I've seen.

You're choosing to represent the legacy of a major gaming franchise, not just making that choice as an advertisement. You will probably always believe that a DQ rep is an advertisement, but I think there is absolutely objective and subjective reasoning to include one beyond that. Especially if Sakurai intends to represent the state of the early Japanese third parties from the NES era more completely. As for the Mii costume, I think anybody would be more inclined to go through the work for a playable character over a costume. If Sakurai wanted to make Dragon Quest in Smash happen, you would need to tackle that behemoth of a task still, so choose to fight that battle when you already have gotten Final Fantasy represented and can have both FF and DQ represented later on. There's always going to be more of a payoff for a character in Smash than a Mii cosmetic item.

There may be some people who want DQ, but very little. Not enough demand to work with 5 parties, one of which, the music composer, being known for denying Japan's war crimes of WWII. When I bring up the choices from DQ being either an anime swordsman or a generic enemy, I say that these aren't good choices compared to Geno, who is the only character of his kind. Based on how interesting Sakurai has made characters in Smash, you really can't deny that Geno would definitely be a unique character, especially if you look at what he can do in Super Mario RPG. He can fire Geno beam, he can fire Geno whirl, a ridiculously powerful disc, Geno blast, where he literally summons blasts from the sky, Geno boost, when he increases his power and defense, and Geno flash, where he transforms into a cannon and fires an expanding light beam, which then explodes, defeating all of the enemies in his way, and you are sitting there telling me that I can't claim he would be entirely different than gunner characters who only fire missiles and charge shots? I am dumbfounded, honestly. Let's take a look at some of the anime swordsman who are already in Smash. We have Robin, who is a sword user, but also uses magic, and how do people look at him? An anime swordsman. Take a look at Shulk, who can see the future and uses Monado arts to increase his attack power, damage, speed, defense, and recovery. How do people view him? Another anime swordsman. Take a look at Corrin, who uses a dragon fang to attack, and a sword, which is also a chainsaw, which is engulfed in fire or thunder (can't tell which one), and how do people view him? Another anime swordsman. No matter how different a character from DQ that isn't slime would be, they will always be viewed as another anime swordsman. Add this to how unique Geno would be, and it isn't even a competition. Btw, the last character to be added to Smash based solely on Japanese requests was Marth in 2001, and he is a first party character, and little to no people want a DQ character. It isn't Nintendo's job to introduce it to the states, and Square Enix has already tried numerous times to introduce it, and they would hardly make any money off of one, considering how many different companies will have to split the profit of a DQ character, as compared to Geno, just Nintendo and Square Enix

I'm not denying he could be unique. I'm saying you're making value judgments on a character that doesn't exist anywhere but in your head right now. You can apply that to literally any character, but it will come down to how they end up represented in Smash in reality. Does Geno have excellent potential? Yes he does. But other characters could have potential as well, and I'm actually inclined to say Slime would be the more interesting addition from a gameplay perspective in how you would have to approach him and make him unique. But again, those are my conceptions of a character.

You have your personal version of how Geno should play. There's no guarantee Sakurai would make him as unique as you're saying though. He's got a very good chance to do so and I generally have faith in him, but maybe he doesn't? Just saying, consider that possibility. Anything is possible from Sakurai when it comes to designing character move sets. And as I said above, the anime swordsman argument is a tired excuse that people use when upset and will absolutely only adhere to selectively depending on personal preference. Some people obviously do legitimately believe that idea, but it's one of the most frustrating counter arguments people use against any conception of a sword user. I'm not convinced personally that a Dragon Quest one would be more unique, but I do think a Dragon Quest character gets probably the most justifiable excuse for adding another one that doesn't innovate a ton.

I'd argue Chrom probably got a large boost from Japan, but I don't know that for certain. But was does it matter if the last one was 2001? Japan deserves as much attention as we've gotten in representation of characters. Why not include one of their biggest franchises as a third party in Smash? The whole it's not requested so it doesn't make sense to include one doesn't mean much. It's a massively popular IP in Japan, and is pretty far from obscure worldwide as well (Which is where someone like Takumaru got the boot). As I've commented before, there's reason to include Dragon Quest from a different perspective than being a major request, because it's a major franchise and I think Simon Belmont is an excellent place to point at in that regard. Other third party characters seem to have been more requested, but they're not here either. He had his fans before Ultimate (Which Dragon Quest has as well), but he wasn't a huge contender either.

I'm saying Dragon Quest versus Geno isn't an argument of which one is more popular with the Smash fan base. It's just a completely different question of priorities. Dragon Quest is choosing the cross over and legacy angle, continuing a tradition he's been evolving for years in representing Japanese third party IPs of note. Geno is fulfilling another major fan request like Ultimate set out to do. I won't pretend to know which one is more likely or desirable for Sakurai on a personal level.

And you're right that it's not Nintendo's job to promote Dragon Quest, but I'm sure as hell certain it's an attractive goal for Square when involved in this process. Especially if say Nintendo or Sakurai were seriously looking another character from Square with less certainty. We just don't know the business of this situation at all. Lots of people are involved with Dragon Quest, we know that as a fact. But how much does that really impact the bottom line, how much does that impact the decisions made in selecting a character for DLC, and so on. We're assuming way too much about what is happening behind the scenes of these massive corporations that have lots of other interests in mind when at the table for discussion. Alright, so let's say Dragon Quest in Smash isn't super profitable to Nintendo, but a deal with future exclusive Dragon Quest content is? That may actively choose that option because it's a long term goal of negotiation.

That's just an example of something else to consider, they're just way too big to be so easily cast aside as this or that. That's why I continue to maintain the legal ramifications of the characters mean nothing tangible for us to comment upon. Easy doesn't always mean likely. Difficult doesn't always mean impossible, and so on. Objectively Geno is an easy win on paper of course, but Nintendo and Square Enix have multiple interests at play going into that situation, so we don't know at all how they would come out of it.

Once again, I think Geno is by far the most likely of the list we've seen from PolarPanda. I just don't think we can be so dismissive of these other choices on the basis of what limited understanding we have of these much larger interactions between companies. Third party characters are by nature extremely difficult to speculate on unless you've got something like Bandai Namco co-developing Smash and the likelihood of Pac-Man skyrocketing as their primary and classic mascot (And even then there is still a lot to consider about the situation).

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Believe me don’t think i know that


However Ridley would like a word with you even though it’s different subject

Well, there's a difference between "big guy can be smaller" and "look, I can reach people without shooting!".

Besides, there's still the music rights problems, as mentioned.

Third party characters are by nature extremely difficult to speculate on unless you've got something like Bandai Namco co-developing Smash and the likelihood of Pac-Man skyrocketing as their primary and classic mascot (And even then there is still a lot to consider about the situation).

Yes, like the fact that they conspicuously ignored everyone else in their house besides him so far, apart from Sakurai having trouble seeing how Heihachi's playstyle would translate into Smash.

 

[Fatmanonice]

DQ has the composer problem, but in terms of licensing of characters hasn't been a problem for Nintendo before when it comes to the characters. Boom/Fortune Street (the game is called Boom Street here in Europe for some reason). Mario Sports Mix. Mario Hoops (that basketball game for Nintendo DS that everyone seems to forget) is all Dragon Quest x Nintendo crossovers. They could for all we know to get some other music for a potential Dragon Quest Stage. I mean SMRPG tracks is in one of the stages in Boom/Fortune street for example. Who says that they wouldn't do something similar here would a Dragon Quest character get in.

The problem with this argument is that Square Enix developed all of these games. Legally speaking, the Nintendo characters were the guest stars, not the Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy characters. Plus, when you look at the back of the boxes for these games, you'll still find that the DQ characters are liscensed by Square Enix, Bird Studio, and Armor Project.

https://wii.bigboxcollection.com/MarioSportsMix.box

 

[childishgamgeno]

Lurking around reddit, found this little tidbit from Hitagi, who closed their reddit question thingie:

["I did get that same list and i will just say few things: Geno is most likely not coming, Sora is complicated for reasons beyond just dealing with SE (see my earlier comments) and the Luminary and Erdrick are kind of redundant since it's just DQ MC. Not deconfirming Luminary and Erdrick, just saying it's like treating them as one of the same almost.

That's all i got to say, but other than that, I can't really say much

[–]Ignoritus 1 point 22 hours ago
Do you have any information that leads you to feel that way about Geno or is that simply based on the usual arguments against him?

[–]Senjougahara__Hitagi 3 points 21 hours ago
Mainly due to the fact that Nintendo bases a lot of their decision on profit and widespread attention. Using more well known names for DLC for smash 4 is what made DLC a success for that game. Geno simply doesn't have the following a Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, or any mainstream SE game character would. If anything, if they REALLY wanted Geno, they would put him and characters of the same kind in the base roster."]

I know Hitagi's credibility isn't at it's highest to this thread, but I thought it was interesting that he said Nintendo bases characters off of widespread attention and profit. He also says widespread names is what made DLC a success in 4. And then says Geno doesnt have a following FF, DQ or mainstream SE characters have.

Well. 1. Geno most definitely has widespread attention (speculation in Smash, placing high in polls here and in Japan etc all the other stuff we've mentioned) SNES sold over 10 million units, introducing Geno to Europe and Australia.

2. Widespread names like...Roy? Lucas? Characters Smash introduced to us...? Also if this is the case, Geno's Mii costume in Smash 4 over other potential SE candidates, AND he calls DLC a success. Hmmm..

3. Geno doesnt have a following??? Is he SURE? lol I don't see FF or DQ placing polls or ballots...The only one who placed higher was Sora.

 

[Deleted member]

The swordsmen issue boils down to really a couple of things. First off, Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem doesn't need to have all 7 characters use the sword. And if the fan base hadn't been so attached to Roy, I swear this wouldn't have been such a problem. But they all represent likable characters that people want in the game (Roy, Lucina, and Chrom) depsite the fact that they're practically identical on many levels. The Links thing is a similar issue/Sakurai for some reason really wanted there to be two versions of Link in the past few games and now "Everyone is Here." That makes the situation worse all around.

But characters like Shulk, Cloud, Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, and Meta Knight all use pretty traditional swords, but play quite differently from one another. People will irritatingly throw Greninja and Pit in there for much more limited use of blade attacks. The "swordsmen" are boring/stale/whatever argument really is only a side effect of Fire Emblem (And every majorly popular character from that series is a traditional swordsman, so blame the fandom on that one) and the Link's getting no chance for more interesting variety/sticking around. Or, really what's happening more often than not, people need a scapegoat for their frustrations with character choices. There's plenty more to be done with swordsmen that could be interesting as long as they're not exclusively based around sword attacks like the Fire Emblem characters are. I know Geno has much more potential since there are inherently less projectile based gunners in Smash and he has some really cool attributes, but I don't think anyone should discount the other choices for just being swordsmen. The community is so damn selective on how they use that criticism anyway, if we were discussing Isaac for example, few people would be as frustrated.

As for DQ in Smash. No, I don't think it has to exclusively be an advertisement. Sakurai went to Square last time and asked for a representative of the series for it's legacy. I suspect a similar situation might happen here if DQ was to get in to Smash. This massive franchise isn't currently in my giant crossover series that has lots of spotlight given to other major Japanese third party franchises, lets make another major crossover happen. I think that part of Smash gets far too overlooked in these conversations with third party characters. Every major third party that crosses over adds to the legacy of Smash as the greatest crossover in gaming, and that's a legacy that is already hard to top. The characters might not be the most popular, but I don't think Sakurai has picked many of the third party characters with that in mind. Mega Man and Sonic, yes. The others, much less so. I mean, talking on the ballot, Simon didn't exactly do amazingly either, yet he is in the game and generally speaking Bomberman was a more popular pick from what I've seen.

You're choosing to represent the legacy of a major gaming franchise, not just making that choice as an advertisement. You will probably always believe that a DQ rep is an advertisement, but I think there is absolutely objective and subjective reasoning to include one beyond that. Especially if Sakurai intends to represent the state of the early Japanese third parties from the NES era more completely. As for the Mii costume, I think anybody would be more inclined to go through the work for a playable character over a costume. If Sakurai wanted to make Dragon Quest in Smash happen, you would need to tackle that behemoth of a task still, so choose to fight that battle when you already have gotten Final Fantasy represented and can have both FF and DQ represented later on. There's always going to be more of a payoff for a character in Smash than a Mii cosmetic item.



I'm not denying he could be unique. I'm saying you're making value judgments on a character that doesn't exist anywhere but in your head right now. You can apply that to literally any character, but it will come down to how they end up represented in Smash in reality. Does Geno have excellent potential? Yes he does. But other characters could have potential as well, and I'm actually inclined to say Slime would be the more interesting addition from a gameplay perspective in how you would have to approach him and make him unique. But again, those are my conceptions of a character.

You have your personal version of how Geno should play. There's no guarantee Sakurai would make him as unique as you're saying though. He's got a very good chance to do so and I generally have faith in him, but maybe he doesn't? Just saying, consider that possibility. Anything is possible from Sakurai when it comes to designing character move sets. And as I said above, the anime swordsman argument is a tired excuse that people use when upset and will absolutely only adhere to selectively depending on personal preference. Some people obviously do legitimately believe that idea, but it's one of the most frustrating counter arguments people use against any conception of a sword user. I'm not convinced personally that a Dragon Quest one would be more unique, but I do think a Dragon Quest character gets probably the most justifiable excuse for adding another one that doesn't innovate a ton.

I'd argue Chrom probably got a large boost from Japan, but I don't know that for certain. But was does it matter if the last one was 2001? Japan deserves as much attention as we've gotten in representation of characters. Why not include one of their biggest franchises as a third party in Smash? The whole it's not requested so it doesn't make sense to include one doesn't mean much. It's a massively popular IP in Japan, and is pretty far from obscure worldwide as well (Which is where someone like Takumaru got the boot). As I've commented before, there's reason to include Dragon Quest from a different perspective than being a major request, because it's a major franchise and I think Simon Belmont is an excellent place to point at in that regard. Other third party characters seem to have been more requested, but they're not here either. He had his fans before Ultimate (Which Dragon Quest has as well), but he wasn't a huge contender either.

I'm saying Dragon Quest versus Geno isn't an argument of which one is more popular with the Smash fan base. It's just a completely different question of priorities. Dragon Quest is choosing the cross over and legacy angle, continuing a tradition he's been evolving for years in representing Japanese third party IPs of note. Geno is fulfilling another major fan request like Ultimate set out to do. I won't pretend to know which one is more likely or desirable for Sakurai on a personal level.

And you're right that it's not Nintendo's job to promote Dragon Quest, but I'm sure as hell certain it's an attractive goal for Square when involved in this process. Especially if say Nintendo or Sakurai were seriously looking another character from Square with less certainty. We just don't know the business of this situation at all. Lots of people are involved with Dragon Quest, we know that as a fact. But how much does that really impact the bottom line, how much does that impact the decisions made in selecting a character for DLC, and so on. We're assuming way too much about what is happening behind the scenes of these massive corporations that have lots of other interests in mind when at the table for discussion. Alright, so let's say Dragon Quest in Smash isn't super profitable to Nintendo, but a deal with future exclusive Dragon Quest content is? That may actively choose that option because it's a long term goal of negotiation.

That's just an example of something else to consider, they're just way too big to be so easily cast aside as this or that. That's why I continue to maintain the legal ramifications of the characters mean nothing tangible for us to comment upon. Easy doesn't always mean likely. Difficult doesn't always mean impossible, and so on. Objectively Geno is an easy win on paper of course, but Nintendo and Square Enix have multiple interests at play going into that situation, so we don't know at all how they would come out of it.

Once again, I think Geno is by far the most likely of the list we've seen from PolarPanda. I just don't think we can be so dismissive of these other choices on the basis of what limited understanding we have of these much larger interactions between companies. Third party characters are by nature extremely difficult to speculate on unless you've got something like Bandai Namco co-developing Smash and the likelihood of Pac-Man skyrocketing as their primary and classic mascot (And even then there is still a lot to consider about the situation).

These are some good points. Though I talk about the anime swordsman deal as a comparison to Geno. For instance, the most unique choice from Square Enix would be Geno. If it were just DQ as an option, then I would agree with the anime swordsman argument being weak, but I am talking about this compared to Geno, and the west will accept another anime swordsman as another anime swordsman, no matter how unique it would be. Simon was fairly requested before the ballot, but he didn't need it, he is a gaming icon and is easily recognizable anywhere. For Square Enix wanting to introduce SE to the west, they may keep trying, but it's unlikely that it will succeed, and I don't see SE pushing for a DQ character when they could get more of the profit from Geno. And yes, Sakurai and Nintendo already have the rights to Geno, and it is unlikely that they would try to get the rights to a different Square Enix character, considering how hard it would be to try and get the rights to one that isn't Geno

 

[Datboigeno]

The swordsmen issue boils down to really a couple of things. First off, Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem doesn't need to have all 7 characters use the sword. And if the fan base hadn't been so attached to Roy, I swear this wouldn't have been such a problem. But they all represent likable characters that people want in the game (Roy, Lucina, and Chrom) depsite the fact that they're practically identical on many levels. The Links thing is a similar issue/Sakurai for some reason really wanted there to be two versions of Link in the past few games and now "Everyone is Here." That makes the situation worse all around.

But characters like Shulk, Cloud, Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, and Meta Knight all use pretty traditional swords, but play quite differently from one another. People will irritatingly throw Greninja and Pit in there for much more limited use of blade attacks. The "swordsmen" are boring/stale/whatever argument really is only a side effect of Fire Emblem (And every majorly popular character from that series is a traditional swordsman, so blame the fandom on that one) and the Link's getting no chance for more interesting variety/sticking around. Or, really what's happening more often than not, people need a scapegoat for their frustrations with character choices. There's plenty more to be done with swordsmen that could be interesting as long as they're not exclusively based around sword attacks like the Fire Emblem characters are. I know Geno has much more potential since there are inherently less projectile based gunners in Smash and he has some really cool attributes, but I don't think anyone should discount the other choices for just being swordsmen. The community is so damn selective on how they use that criticism anyway, if we were discussing Isaac for example, few people would be as frustrated.

As for DQ in Smash. No, I don't think it has to exclusively be an advertisement. Sakurai went to Square last time and asked for a representative of the series for it's legacy. I suspect a similar situation might happen here if DQ was to get in to Smash. This massive franchise isn't currently in my giant crossover series that has lots of spotlight given to other major Japanese third party franchises, lets make another major crossover happen. I think that part of Smash gets far too overlooked in these conversations with third party characters. Every major third party that crosses over adds to the legacy of Smash as the greatest crossover in gaming, and that's a legacy that is already hard to top. The characters might not be the most popular, but I don't think Sakurai has picked many of the third party characters with that in mind. Mega Man and Sonic, yes. The others, much less so. I mean, talking on the ballot, Simon didn't exactly do amazingly either, yet he is in the game and generally speaking Bomberman was a more popular pick from what I've seen.

You're choosing to represent the legacy of a major gaming franchise, not just making that choice as an advertisement. You will probably always believe that a DQ rep is an advertisement, but I think there is absolutely objective and subjective reasoning to include one beyond that. Especially if Sakurai intends to represent the state of the early Japanese third parties from the NES era more completely. As for the Mii costume, I think anybody would be more inclined to go through the work for a playable character over a costume. If Sakurai wanted to make Dragon Quest in Smash happen, you would need to tackle that behemoth of a task still, so choose to fight that battle when you already have gotten Final Fantasy represented and can have both FF and DQ represented later on. There's always going to be more of a payoff for a character in Smash than a Mii cosmetic item.



I'm not denying he could be unique. I'm saying you're making value judgments on a character that doesn't exist anywhere but in your head right now. You can apply that to literally any character, but it will come down to how they end up represented in Smash in reality. Does Geno have excellent potential? Yes he does. But other characters could have potential as well, and I'm actually inclined to say Slime would be the more interesting addition from a gameplay perspective in how you would have to approach him and make him unique. But again, those are my conceptions of a character.

You have your personal version of how Geno should play. There's no guarantee Sakurai would make him as unique as you're saying though. He's got a very good chance to do so and I generally have faith in him, but maybe he doesn't? Just saying, consider that possibility. Anything is possible from Sakurai when it comes to designing character move sets. And as I said above, the anime swordsman argument is a tired excuse that people use when upset and will absolutely only adhere to selectively depending on personal preference. Some people obviously do legitimately believe that idea, but it's one of the most frustrating counter arguments people use against any conception of a sword user. I'm not convinced personally that a Dragon Quest one would be more unique, but I do think a Dragon Quest character gets probably the most justifiable excuse for adding another one that doesn't innovate a ton.

I'd argue Chrom probably got a large boost from Japan, but I don't know that for certain. But was does it matter if the last one was 2001? Japan deserves as much attention as we've gotten in representation of characters. Why not include one of their biggest franchises as a third party in Smash? The whole it's not requested so it doesn't make sense to include one doesn't mean much. It's a massively popular IP in Japan, and is pretty far from obscure worldwide as well (Which is where someone like Takumaru got the boot). As I've commented before, there's reason to include Dragon Quest from a different perspective than being a major request, because it's a major franchise and I think Simon Belmont is an excellent place to point at in that regard. Other third party characters seem to have been more requested, but they're not here either. He had his fans before Ultimate (Which Dragon Quest has as well), but he wasn't a huge contender either.

I'm saying Dragon Quest versus Geno isn't an argument of which one is more popular with the Smash fan base. It's just a completely different question of priorities. Dragon Quest is choosing the cross over and legacy angle, continuing a tradition he's been evolving for years in representing Japanese third party IPs of note. Geno is fulfilling another major fan request like Ultimate set out to do. I won't pretend to know which one is more likely or desirable for Sakurai on a personal level.

And you're right that it's not Nintendo's job to promote Dragon Quest, but I'm sure as hell certain it's an attractive goal for Square when involved in this process. Especially if say Nintendo or Sakurai were seriously looking another character from Square with less certainty. We just don't know the business of this situation at all. Lots of people are involved with Dragon Quest, we know that as a fact. But how much does that really impact the bottom line, how much does that impact the decisions made in selecting a character for DLC, and so on. We're assuming way too much about what is happening behind the scenes of these massive corporations that have lots of other interests in mind when at the table for discussion. Alright, so let's say Dragon Quest in Smash isn't super profitable to Nintendo, but a deal with future exclusive Dragon Quest content is? That may actively choose that option because it's a long term goal of negotiation.

That's just an example of something else to consider, they're just way too big to be so easily cast aside as this or that. That's why I continue to maintain the legal ramifications of the characters mean nothing tangible for us to comment upon. Easy doesn't always mean likely. Difficult doesn't always mean impossible, and so on. Objectively Geno is an easy win on paper of course, but Nintendo and Square Enix have multiple interests at play going into that situation, so we don't know at all how they would come out of it.

Once again, I think Geno is by far the most likely of the list we've seen from PolarPanda. I just don't think we can be so dismissive of these other choices on the basis of what limited understanding we have of these much larger interactions between companies. Third party characters are by nature extremely difficult to speculate on unless you've got something like Bandai Namco co-developing Smash and the likelihood of Pac-Man skyrocketing as their primary and classic mascot (And even then there is still a lot to consider about the situation).

I’m gonna be straight with you man: You can seriously cut down on the amount of words you’re using to make your points and still make them in a perfectly understandable way. Your posts take up almost an entire page and are just restating things you’ve said a dozen times now. You don’t have to play devils advocate literally every time someone makes a certain argument for Geno getting in over any other character possibility.

 

[Nekoo]

3. Geno doesnt have a following??? Is he SURE? lol I don't see FF or DQ placing polls or ballots...The only one who placed higher was Sora.

Okay, I'll be fair on that one, you're comparing FF and DQ who have a bazillion of characters, to Geno and Sora who are the only one runner up for their series.
Most of the Japan fanbase actually wanted a FF characters ever since brawl and the introduction of thirds parties, the problem is that there so many characters that their votes were widespread between Bartz, Terra, Zidane, Squall, Chocobo, Warrior of Light, Cloud etc etc etc but if you actually put all of their vote as "Final Fantasy Characters" i'm pretty sure they would be topping all polls online.

Remember, it's that numbers of request for a Final Fantasy characters, that made Sakurai reach out for Cloud in Smash 4

 

[domriver]

Lurking around reddit, found this little tidbit from Hitagi, who closed their reddit question thingie:

["I did get that same list and i will just say few things: Geno is most likely not coming, Sora is complicated for reasons beyond just dealing with SE (see my earlier comments) and the Luminary and Erdrick are kind of redundant since it's just DQ MC. Not deconfirming Luminary and Erdrick, just saying it's like treating them as one of the same almost.

That's all i got to say, but other than that, I can't really say much

[–]Ignoritus 1 point 22 hours ago
Do you have any information that leads you to feel that way about Geno or is that simply based on the usual arguments against him?

[–]Senjougahara__Hitagi 3 points 21 hours ago
Mainly due to the fact that Nintendo bases a lot of their decision on profit and widespread attention. Using more well known names for DLC for smash 4 is what made DLC a success for that game. Geno simply doesn't have the following a Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, or any mainstream SE game character would. If anything, if they REALLY wanted Geno, they would put him and characters of the same kind in the base roster."]

I know Hitagi's credibility isn't at it's highest to this thread, but I thought it was interesting that he said Nintendo bases characters off of widespread attention and profit. He also says widespread names is what made DLC a success in 4. And then says Geno doesnt have a following FF, DQ or mainstream SE characters have.

Well. 1. Geno most definitely has widespread attention (speculation in Smash, placing high in polls here and in Japan etc all the other stuff we've mentioned) SNES sold over 10 million units, introducing Geno to Europe and Australia.

2. Widespread names like...Roy? Lucas? Characters Smash introduced to us...? Also if this is the case, Geno's Mii costume in Smash 4 over other potential SE candidates, AND he calls DLC a success. Hmmm..

3. Geno doesnt have a following??? Is he SURE? lol I don't see FF or DQ placing polls or ballots...The only one who placed higher was Sora.

Sounds more like Bias to me. The ballots do speak for themselves also with Sakurai mentioning that Geno got alot of votes. So hmmm.

 

[AugustusB]

Okay, I'll be fair on that one, you're comparing FF and DQ who have a bazillion of characters, to Geno and Sora who are the only one runner up for their series.
Most of the Japan fanbase actually wanted a FF characters ever since brawl and the introduction of thirds parties, the problem is that there so many characters that their votes were widespread between Bartz, Terra, Zidane, Squall, Chocobo, Warrior of Light, Cloud etc etc etc but if you actually put all of their vote as "Final Fantasy Characters" i'm pretty sure they would be topping all polls online.

Remember, it's that numbers of request for a Final Fantasy characters, that made Sakurai reach out for Cloud in Smash 4

Holy crap...I never thought I would see Nekoo in the Geno Thread. Good to have ya here buddy!

 

[Deleted member]

Lurking around reddit, found this little tidbit from Hitagi, who closed their reddit question thingie:

["I did get that same list and i will just say few things: Geno is most likely not coming, Sora is complicated for reasons beyond just dealing with SE (see my earlier comments) and the Luminary and Erdrick are kind of redundant since it's just DQ MC. Not deconfirming Luminary and Erdrick, just saying it's like treating them as one of the same almost.

That's all i got to say, but other than that, I can't really say much

[–]Ignoritus 1 point 22 hours ago
Do you have any information that leads you to feel that way about Geno or is that simply based on the usual arguments against him?

[–]Senjougahara__Hitagi 3 points 21 hours ago
Mainly due to the fact that Nintendo bases a lot of their decision on profit and widespread attention. Using more well known names for DLC for smash 4 is what made DLC a success for that game. Geno simply doesn't have the following a Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, or any mainstream SE game character would. If anything, if they REALLY wanted Geno, they would put him and characters of the same kind in the base roster."]

I know Hitagi's credibility isn't at it's highest to this thread, but I thought it was interesting that he said Nintendo bases characters off of widespread attention and profit. He also says widespread names is what made DLC a success in 4. And then says Geno doesnt have a following FF, DQ or mainstream SE characters have.

Well. 1. Geno most definitely has widespread attention (speculation in Smash, placing high in polls here and in Japan etc all the other stuff we've mentioned) SNES sold over 10 million units, introducing Geno to Europe and Australia.

2. Widespread names like...Roy? Lucas? Characters Smash introduced to us...? Also if this is the case, Geno's Mii costume in Smash 4 over other potential SE candidates, AND he calls DLC a success. Hmmm..

3. Geno doesnt have a following??? Is he SURE? lol I don't see FF or DQ placing polls or ballots...The only one who placed higher was Sora.

Lol, Hitagi is another one of those guys who just doesn't understand why Geno would greatly benefit Nintendo. No wonder he isn't credible

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Lurking around reddit, found this little tidbit from Hitagi, who closed their reddit question thingie:

["I did get that same list and i will just say few things: Geno is most likely not coming, Sora is complicated for reasons beyond just dealing with SE (see my earlier comments) and the Luminary and Erdrick are kind of redundant since it's just DQ MC. Not deconfirming Luminary and Erdrick, just saying it's like treating them as one of the same almost.

That's all i got to say, but other than that, I can't really say much

[–]Ignoritus 1 point 22 hours ago
Do you have any information that leads you to feel that way about Geno or is that simply based on the usual arguments against him?

[–]Senjougahara__Hitagi 3 points 21 hours ago
Mainly due to the fact that Nintendo bases a lot of their decision on profit and widespread attention. Using more well known names for DLC for smash 4 is what made DLC a success for that game. Geno simply doesn't have the following a Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, or any mainstream SE game character would. If anything, if they REALLY wanted Geno, they would put him and characters of the same kind in the base roster."]

I know Hitagi's credibility isn't at it's highest to this thread, but I thought it was interesting that he said Nintendo bases characters off of widespread attention and profit. He also says widespread names is what made DLC a success in 4. And then says Geno doesnt have a following FF, DQ or mainstream SE characters have.

Well. 1. Geno most definitely has widespread attention (speculation in Smash, placing high in polls here and in Japan etc all the other stuff we've mentioned) SNES sold over 10 million units, introducing Geno to Europe and Australia.

2. Widespread names like...Roy? Lucas? Characters Smash introduced to us...? Also if this is the case, Geno's Mii costume in Smash 4 over other potential SE candidates, AND he calls DLC a success. Hmmm..

3. Geno doesnt have a following??? Is he SURE? lol I don't see FF or DQ placing polls or ballots...The only one who placed higher was Sora.

Where are we getting a 10 Million figure from? The SNES Classic has sold 5.28 Million worldwide according to figures from back in April. Unless there's a new figure out there of course I'm unaware of.

Can we please stop attributing SNES Classic to Super Mario RPG like that though? I've talked at length was this is problematic. I'm sure it introduced Geno to some new people, but that's the only solid conclusion you can make from the sales of the SNES Classic. The potential for more exposure is there and the only real point. You just can't make any numerical claims from the sales of SNES Classic for or against Geno....

 

[Nekoo]

Holy crap...I never thought I would see Nekoo in the Geno Thread. Good to have ya here buddy!

Wait? Am I seen as an Anti-Geno now or what? I never was against the star boy!
I'm actually supporting him, or rather, I'm just supporting literally any Square-Enix characters because I love them lmao.

 

[Deleted member]

Where are we getting a 10 Million figure from? The SNES Classic has sold 5.28 Million worldwide according to figures from back in April. Unless there's a new figure out there of course I'm unaware of.

Can we please stop attributing SNES Classic to Super Mario RPG like that though? I've talked at length was this is problematic. I'm sure it introduced Geno to some new people, but that's the only solid conclusion you can make from the sales of the SNES Classic. The potential for more exposure is there and the only real point. You just can't make any numerical claims from the sales of SNES Classic for or against Geno....

Adding Geno can promote the SNES Classic, so it is beneficial for Geno that Super Mario RPG was on the SNES Classic

 

[AugustusB]

Wait? Am I seen as an Anti-Geno now or what? I never was against the star boy!
I'm actually supporting him, or rather, I'm just supporting literally any Square-Enix characters because I love them lmao.

I know, iust giving ya a hard time. I am there with you in the Square love part. Though my support is only for Geno on this site. (Low-key, would love any Square Character)

 

[EarlTamm]

Wait? Am I seen as an Anti-Geno now or what? I never was against the star boy!
I'm actually supporting him, or rather, I'm just supporting literally any Square-Enix characters because I love them lmao.

I don't think that is what he meant. Maybe he is just not use to seeing you outside of a particular thread or two.

 

[Rummy]

Wait? Am I seen as an Anti-Geno now or what? I never was against the star boy!
I'm actually supporting him, or rather, I'm just supporting literally any Square-Enix characters because I love them lmao.

Nah, you are just a familiar face my dude.

Dine with this delicious meal.

It's true! I am use to Nekoo in the general thread. Anywho, has there been anything new going outside PPanda's update on 5 sources?

Nothing yet.

 

[AugustusB]

I don't think that is what he meant. Maybe he is just not use to seeing you outside of a particular thread or two.

It's true! I am use to Nekoo in the general thread. Anywho, has there been anything new going outside PPanda's update on 5 sources?

 

[childishgamgeno]

The swordsmen issue boils down to really a couple of things. First off, Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem doesn't need to have all 7 characters use the sword. And if the fan base hadn't been so attached to Roy, I swear this wouldn't have been such a problem. But they all represent likable characters that people want in the game (Roy, Lucina, and Chrom) depsite the fact that they're practically identical on many levels. The Links thing is a similar issue/Sakurai for some reason really wanted there to be two versions of Link in the past few games and now "Everyone is Here." That makes the situation worse all around.

But characters like Shulk, Cloud, Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, and Meta Knight all use pretty traditional swords, but play quite differently from one another. People will irritatingly throw Greninja and Pit in there for much more limited use of blade attacks. The "swordsmen" are boring/stale/whatever argument really is only a side effect of Fire Emblem (And every majorly popular character from that series is a traditional swordsman, so blame the fandom on that one) and the Link's getting no chance for more interesting variety/sticking around. Or, really what's happening more often than not, people need a scapegoat for their frustrations with character choices. There's plenty more to be done with swordsmen that could be interesting as long as they're not exclusively based around sword attacks like the Fire Emblem characters are. I know Geno has much more potential since there are inherently less projectile based gunners in Smash and he has some really cool attributes, but I don't think anyone should discount the other choices for just being swordsmen. The community is so damn selective on how they use that criticism anyway, if we were discussing Isaac for example, few people would be as frustrated.

As for DQ in Smash. No, I don't think it has to exclusively be an advertisement. Sakurai went to Square last time and asked for a representative of the series for it's legacy. I suspect a similar situation might happen here if DQ was to get in to Smash. This massive franchise isn't currently in my giant crossover series that has lots of spotlight given to other major Japanese third party franchises, lets make another major crossover happen. I think that part of Smash gets far too overlooked in these conversations with third party characters. Every major third party that crosses over adds to the legacy of Smash as the greatest crossover in gaming, and that's a legacy that is already hard to top. The characters might not be the most popular, but I don't think Sakurai has picked many of the third party characters with that in mind. Mega Man and Sonic, yes. The others, much less so. I mean, talking on the ballot, Simon didn't exactly do amazingly either, yet he is in the game and generally speaking Bomberman was a more popular pick from what I've seen.

You're choosing to represent the legacy of a major gaming franchise, not just making that choice as an advertisement. You will probably always believe that a DQ rep is an advertisement, but I think there is absolutely objective and subjective reasoning to include one beyond that. Especially if Sakurai intends to represent the state of the early Japanese third parties from the NES era more completely. As for the Mii costume, I think anybody would be more inclined to go through the work for a playable character over a costume. If Sakurai wanted to make Dragon Quest in Smash happen, you would need to tackle that behemoth of a task still, so choose to fight that battle when you already have gotten Final Fantasy represented and can have both FF and DQ represented later on. There's always going to be more of a payoff for a character in Smash than a Mii cosmetic item.

I'm saying Dragon Quest versus Geno isn't an argument of which one is more popular with the Smash fan base. It's just a completely different question of priorities. Dragon Quest is choosing the cross over and legacy angle, continuing a tradition he's been evolving for years in representing Japanese third party IPs of note. Geno is fulfilling another major fan request like Ultimate set out to do. I won't pretend to know which one is more likely or desirable for Sakurai on a personal level.

And you're right that it's not Nintendo's job to promote Dragon Quest, but I'm sure as hell certain it's an attractive goal for Square when involved in this process. Especially if say Nintendo or Sakurai were seriously looking another character from Square with less certainty. We just don't know the business of this situation at all. Lots of people are involved with Dragon Quest, we know that as a fact. But how much does that really impact the bottom line, how much does that impact the decisions made in selecting a character for DLC, and so on. We're assuming way too much about what is happening behind the scenes of these massive corporations that have lots of other interests in mind when at the table for discussion. Alright, so let's say Dragon Quest in Smash isn't super profitable to Nintendo, but a deal with future exclusive Dragon Quest content is? That may actively choose that option because it's a long term goal of negotiation.

That's just an example of something else to consider, they're just way too big to be so easily cast aside as this or that. That's why I continue to maintain the legal ramifications of the characters mean nothing tangible for us to comment upon. Easy doesn't always mean likely. Difficult doesn't always mean impossible, and so on. Objectively Geno is an easy win on paper of course, but Nintendo and Square Enix have multiple interests at play going into that situation, so we don't know at all how they would come out of it.

Once again, I think Geno is by far the most likely of the list we've seen from PolarPanda. I just don't think we can be so dismissive of these other choices on the basis of what limited understanding we have of these much larger interactions between companies. Third party characters are by nature extremely difficult to speculate on unless you've got something like Bandai Namco co-developing Smash and the likelihood of Pac-Man skyrocketing as their primary and classic mascot (And even then there is still a lot to consider about the situation).

Dang, you make some excellent points I do hand that to you. I think its all a matter of priority. Do you prioritize legacy and history, or fan demand and potential? I want to say Sakurai would choose Geno, since hes wanted to make him a fighter and if he had any say in the list NoJ gave him, he'd pick tht. But he might not. I don't think DQ would be a horrible choice, (maybe Slime) but if what you're saying is true, then i think its a business decision from SE's standpoint. I don't think exclusive DQ merch would help Nintendo in the long run, since they already get most of DQ stuff anyway and it doesnt sell as much in the West. But i do think legal ramifications are very important. If we're maintaing thats how we didnt get Geno earlier, and thats GENO, a legendary franchise character owned by three seperate companies could be difficult, especially when it was hard enough getting in one character solely owned by SE.

Okay, I'll be fair on that one, you're comparing FF and DQ who have a bazillion of characters, to Geno and Sora who are the only one runner up for their series.
Most of the Japan fanbase actually wanted a FF characters ever since brawl and the introduction of thirds parties, the problem is that there so many characters that their votes were widespread between Bartz, Terra, Zidane, Squall, Chocobo, Warrior of Light, Cloud etc etc etc but if you actually put all of their vote as "Final Fantasy Characters" i'm pretty sure they would be topping all polls online.

Remember, it's that numbers of request for a Final Fantasy characters, that made Sakurai reach out for Cloud in Smash 4

I don't think its really the amount of characters that matter, but the characters themselves. Sora is the main character of a beloved franchise. Cloud is the main character of an installment in a beloved franchise. Take DQ for example. The only characters up are Erdrick and Luminary. You have to pick one and which one is more likely to fit in Smash. Even right now, Geno places higher than Noctis on polls. As well as several other FF characters. He beats the numbers.

Sounds more like Bias to me. The ballots do speak for themselves also with Sakurai mentioning that Geno got alot of votes. So hmmm.

Not sure if its bias, I think he maybe has a wrong opinion

EDIT:

Where are we getting a 10 Million figure from? The SNES Classic has sold 5.28 Million worldwide according to figures from back in April. Unless there's a new figure out there of course I'm unaware of.

Can we please stop attributing SNES Classic to Super Mario RPG like that though? I've talked at length was this is problematic. I'm sure it introduced Geno to some new people, but that's the only solid conclusion you can make from the sales of the SNES Classic. The potential for more exposure is there and the only real point. You just can't make any numerical claims from the sales of SNES Classic for or against Geno....

https://www.destructoid.com/nes-and...the-10-million-global-sales-mark-529201.phtml

Here's where I got it from. Combined with NES Classic sales are 10 million. doesnt really state how much each sold but cool, in between 5-9 million as a hypothesis.

But why not? We just has a thread discussing our first time being introduced and playing Super Mario RPG and how that led us all here. My main point was that this was the first time SMRPG was available in Europe and Australia, which can apply to "widespread" appeal. And if Nintendo bases decisions off of that, thats important to note.

And also let's not act like the NES and SNES classic weren't HUGE for nintendo? Spawning the Playstation Classic (and i think the Dreamcast Classic). Additionally, as mentioned earlier, it makes me wonder why DQ or Chrono Trigger weren't released along with the NES or SNES Classic at least in Japan only versions. Even Ninja Gaiden made it to NES Classic.

 

[EarlTamm]

Here is a question I don't recall ever being asked, what is Square's Switch team doing as of now? You know, the one that made Octopath. They said there was going to be no DLC for Octopath, so I imagine they must be working on a new game.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Sephiroth and Ridley are not the same situation. Ridley was big meanwhile Sephiroth's sword, the Masamune, is big, or, rather, long. The Masamune is roughly 8 feet long, making it about two feet longer than Cloud's buster sword. This means that it would need to be bigger than the biggest sword in Smash. The only time Sephiroth's sword is scaled down is when he's made chibi or cartoony. It being ridiculously long is basically its signature characteristic.

They scaled Ridley down but he's still notably the biggest character, especially when the game shows off that he's regularly crouching. With the Masamune, it would still need to follow this principle because it has followed this principle in all his serious appearances. Picture Shulk's aerial hitboxes and imagine that they're always out. Now imagine that they're even longer? See the problem? Sephiroth by nature is also a very quick character so you now have a rushdown character with absurd range. Again, see the problem?

Sure, you could nerf the character but that would also take away who the character is. Sephiroth is supposed to be goofy strong and goofy quick with a sword that could poke you in the ass if he were sitting in the back of the bus. His signature weapon is an extension of him and making it smaller or giving it significant lag would betray the design of the character itself. Without its absurd length, it would just be another sword, not the Masamune, and thus wouldn't reflect the true Sephiroth.

 

[Deleted member]

Here is a question I don't recall ever being asked, what is Square's Switch team doing as of now? You know, the one that made Octopath. They said there was going to be no DLC for Octopath, so I imagine they must be working on a new game.

S U P E R

M A R I O

R P G

R E M A K E

O R

S E Q U E L

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

Not to bore you all with constant updates with my first play through, but just got to Nimbus Castle, and man this game is just so creative. Honestly, it rivals Thousand Year Door and Superstar Saga. Can't believe I never played it before, but glad I get to experience it for the first time.

Also, having a party with Peach and Geno is the only way to go (sorry Bowser and Mallow)

Try using my party: Mario, Geno (middle), and Mallow.

Also, yay, you're at my favorite part in the game, Nimbus Land! I always use Mallow at that area because it's basically his story and quest to find his parents, so putting him along with the fighting team during Nimbus Land really fits the theme.

 

[EarlTamm]

Sephiroth is supposed to be goofy strong and goofy quick with a sword that could poke you in the *** if he were sitting in the back of the bus.

That may be the greatest thing ever said relating to Sephiroth's stupid long sword. Ever.