Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Firox]

I mean, one could say the same regarding Shadow and Isaac. Everyone was super sure Shadow was in, and people were confident on Isaac. and yet they were revealed at literally the last possible moment.

The only difference i see between Geno and those 2 is that he has been mentioned in a positive light by Sakurai. So i see Author Appeal beign a big benefit for him (Author Appeal was pretty much the biggest reason Min Min got in, although the appeal came from the Producer of Arms, not Sakurai)

Couple things with regards to this:
Firstly, people being "super sure" about a character is a fairly relative thing to claim. What made them so sure? To my knowledge, there was no outward signs or indications that Sakurai was going to go ham with the former assist trophies. Hell, Isaac was straight OMITTED from Smash 4's AT line-up and showed up as only a costume. Some could even interpret that as a step BACK rather than forward. I'm sorry, but if anyone thought those two were a slam dunk before the game's release, they were just blindly optimistic.

Secondly, while I agree with you that their reveals were fairly late with regards to the base game, would you even call the base game the "last possible moment" or would you call the end of the DLC cycle the LAST FREAKING MOMENT. Imagine if Isaac had been MIA all the way up til now? That would be a FAR different story (and frankly ****ed up as all hell if Sakurai would have waited to drop the costume until now).

Lastly, I really think people are underestimating the fact that Sakurai has given Geno special mentions in the past. He knows we want him. Nintendo knows we want him. They are fully aware. Though, I must admit, if Geno still manages to get the shaft after everything is said and done, I'll be convinced that Nintendo/Sakurai really just don't give enough ****s to put him in smash. Fortunately, things indicate otherwise, but I acknowledge that there is still a minute chance of a worst case scenario.

Nintendo could have dropped the Heihachi Mii costume with the base game. They didn't. They could have easily dropped it with Terry. They didn't. As we've seen, they could have dropped it with pretty much ANY character. They didn't. Because they were saving him for the second season of DLC.

However I don't think that the Geno Mii costume can come back with any character, the Geno Mii costume could only come back with another Square Enix character that is not Geno. That's pretty obvious, but what I'm trying to say is that the fact that the Geno Mii costume wasn't released with the Hero could mean that he's just being saved to be released with another character just like the Heihachi Mii costume.

I see your points with Heihachi's timing and they do have merit. The timing does seem strange, but then again, most of the mii costumes don't really seem to have much rhyme or reason to when they got dropped. Why drop Mega Man stuff with Banjo? Some of it seems arbitrary, though one could also argue that Sakurai is doing it that way for costumes that he doesn't deem specifically important, as messed up as that sounds. Or rather, unless a third party company demands consistency with their content, he just divides the remaining costumes equally in whatever way is convenient. To your other point though, I agree that if Geno's costume comes back, at very least, it would be with a different SE character since that's just how SE rolls. Regardless, I stand by the fact that Heihachi's status with Sakurai and the fans is much different from Geno's.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

View attachment 275938

Here's the full list of Assist Trophies in Ultimate. Let's break it down:

Likely won't be promoted for obvious reasons:

-Moon
-Klaptrap
-Metroid
-Fried Chicken Dog
-Dr. Wright
-Snagret
-Yuri
-Kapp'n
-Mother Brain
-Starfy
-Dr. Wily
-Nikki
-Starman
-Dr. Kawashima
-Rathalos
-Thwomp
-Pong
-Andross
-Flies and Swatter
-Nightmare
-Riki
-Ghosts
-Chain Chomp
-Knuckle Joe Biden
-Sheriff
-Hammer Bro
-Devil

One unique third party character per franchise is still heavily implied:

-Shadow
-Guile
-Alucard
-Gray Fox
-Rodin

Characters likely not given Mii costumes because of midriff/upskirt controversy:

-Krystal
-Tiki
-Phosphora
-Lyn

Japanese exclusives:

-Sukapon
-Prince Sable

Indie:

-Shovel Knight

Already converted into Mii costumes:

-Akira
-Ashley
-Takamaru
-Knuckles
-Skull Kid
-Squid Sisters
-Black Knight
-Isaac
-Midna
-Arcade Bunny
-Spring Man
-Vince

So, crossing out all these characters, here's who we're left with:

-Ghirahim
-Dillon
-Waluigi
-Samurai Goroh
-Bomberman

That's it...

Being realistic, Ghirahim sure as hell isn't being promoted if Midna and Skull Kid are theoretically down and out, Dillion is by far the biggest niche pick here, and Goroh is not only a simple swordsman but his series has been dead for close to 17 years (big OOF). That then just cuts things down to these two:

-Waluigi
-Bomberman

Both definitely have their strengths but I feel Waluigi wins out. More popular, perfect Smash attendance since Melee, not third party, etc. If Nintendo was going to break the AT rule, I feel like they would do it with a character as close to the chest as possible and Waluigi being first party and from the Mario series definitely sticks some points up on the board for him.

You forgot Zero in the Third Party section. (and Mii Costume section)

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Oddly enough, as irrational as it might be, the lack of the Chocobo hat showing up is giving me some optimism for Geno. The former finally coming back when the latter is revealed as a fighter would be a lot of sense, even if it would be just as logical for both it and a Geno costume to show up at the same time for some other fighter.

 

[TheShiningAbsol]

View attachment 275938

Here's the full list of Assist Trophies in Ultimate. Let's break it down:

Likely won't be promoted for obvious reasons:

-Moon
-Klaptrap
-Metroid
-Fried Chicken Dog
-Dr. Wright
-Snagret
-Yuri
-Kapp'n
-Mother Brain
-Starfy
-Dr. Wily
-Nikki
-Starman
-Dr. Kawashima
-Rathalos
-Thwomp
-Pong
-Andross
-Flies and Swatter
-Nightmare
-Riki
-Ghosts
-Chain Chomp
-Knuckle Joe Biden
-Sheriff
-Hammer Bro
-Devil

One unique third party character per franchise is still heavily implied:

-Shadow
-Guile
-Alucard
-Gray Fox
-Rodin

Characters likely not given Mii costumes because of midriff/upskirt controversy:

-Krystal
-Tiki
-Phosphora
-Lyn

Japanese exclusives:

-Sukapon
-Prince Sable

Indie:

-Shovel Knight

Already converted into Mii costumes:

-Akira
-Ashley
-Takamaru
-Knuckles
-Skull Kid
-Squid Sisters
-Black Knight
-Isaac
-Midna
-Arcade Bunny
-Spring Man
-Vince

So, crossing out all these characters, here's who we're left with:

-Ghirahim
-Dillon
-Waluigi
-Samurai Goroh
-Bomberman

That's it...

Being realistic, Ghirahim sure as hell isn't being promoted if Midna and Skull Kid are theoretically down and out, Dillion is by far the biggest niche pick here, and Goroh is not only a simple swordsman but his series has been dead for close to 17 years (big OOF). That then just cuts things down to these two:

-Waluigi
-Bomberman

Both definitely have their strengths but I feel Waluigi wins out. More popular, perfect Smash attendance since Melee, not third party, etc. If Nintendo was going to break the AT rule, I feel like they would do it with a character as close to the chest as possible and Waluigi being first party and from the Mario series definitely sticks some points up on the board for him.

This... seems like a lot of fan rules. Like the already Mii costumes, only one unique third party, upskirts, etc. Seems like similar arguments as “spirits deconfirm”

 

[Vector Victor]

View attachment 275940Just wanted to share this with the community here. I made this after seeing the tweet about how the color background of each dlc fighter sorta matched with each star color from Mario rpg. Enjoy

You know, if we use only the fighter pass characters, then Byleth fills in the green star. That leaves one star left, the dark blue one to be filled by the seventh character, a fan favorite also associated with blue.



Of course this is not a real theory, just for fun. Its just a surreal coincidence

 

[RedMachine123]

View attachment 275938

Here's the full list of Assist Trophies in Ultimate. Let's break it down:

Likely won't be promoted for obvious reasons:

-Moon
-Klaptrap
-Metroid
-Fried Chicken Dog
-Dr. Wright
-Snagret
-Yuri
-Kapp'n
-Mother Brain
-Starfy
-Dr. Wily
-Nikki
-Starman
-Dr. Kawashima
-Rathalos
-Thwomp
-Pong
-Andross
-Flies and Swatter
-Nightmare
-Riki
-Ghosts
-Chain Chomp
-Knuckle Joe Biden
-Sheriff
-Hammer Bro
-Devil

One unique third party character per franchise is still heavily implied:

-Shadow
-Guile
-Alucard
-Gray Fox
-Rodin

Characters likely not given Mii costumes because of midriff/upskirt controversy:

-Krystal
-Tiki
-Phosphora
-Lyn

Japanese exclusives:

-Sukapon
-Prince Sable

Indie:

-Shovel Knight

Already converted into Mii costumes:

-Akira
-Ashley
-Takamaru
-Knuckles
-Skull Kid
-Squid Sisters
-Black Knight
-Isaac
-Midna
-Arcade Bunny
-Spring Man
-Vince

So, crossing out all these characters, here's who we're left with:

-Ghirahim
-Dillon
-Waluigi
-Samurai Goroh
-Bomberman

That's it...

Being realistic, Ghirahim sure as hell isn't being promoted if Midna and Skull Kid are theoretically down and out, Dillion is by far the biggest niche pick here, and Goroh is not only a simple swordsman but his series has been dead for close to 17 years (big OOF). That then just cuts things down to these two:

-Waluigi
-Bomberman

Both definitely have their strengths but I feel Waluigi wins out. More popular, perfect Smash attendance since Melee, not third party, etc. If Nintendo was going to break the AT rule, I feel like they would do it with a character as close to the chest as possible and Waluigi being first party and from the Mario series definitely sticks some points up on the board for him.

Midna doesn't have a Mii costume and I don't think that base game Mii costumes deconfirm by the same reason why base game spirits don't either: they were made before a second Fighter Pass was even planned. So characters like Isaac could easily be promoted too.

 

[7NATOR]

Actually seeing that list, that makes me wonder

if Geno does get in, doesn't that hurt (but not break) the "only 1 unique rep per 3rd party rule". While Mario is a 1st party franchise, Geno himself is a 3rd party character. Along with that if Geno is added he would be the 10th Mario Character, and there are other Mario Characters that are popular for Smash as well

so if he does get in with all that in consideration, that gives Credibility to Particular 3rd parties getting 2nd reps. maybe in this DLC, or probably next game

 

[Fatmanonice]

This... seems like a lot of fan rules. Like the already Mii costumes, only one unique third party, upskirts, etc. Seems like similar arguments to “spirits deconfirm”

This is merely the current status of things and its just matter of fact. Sakurai himself has even commented on how strict the Japanese rating board is and how they wouldn't even let Mai be a background character without raising the game's rating. Other examples include Tharja's trophy being outright cut from Smash 4 and Palutena, Corrin, and Bayo all having to have some degree of censorship to be allowed to be playable. It's not a fan rule, it's a literal rule that's been in effect the last two games.

 

[MattX20]

This is merely the current status of things and its just matter of fact. Sakurai himself has even commented on how strict the Japanese rating board is and how they wouldn't even let Mai be a background character without raising the game's rating. Other examples include Tharja's trophy being outright cut from Smash 4 and Palutena, Corrin, and Bayo all having to have some degree of censorship to be allowed to be playable. It's not a fan rule, it's a literal rule that's been in effect the last two games.

Even so, Midna never had a Mii Costume and there's always been demand for more Zelda characters that aren't variations of the Triforce trio. That, and if we factor in certain other elements, Dixie Kong is also possible since only her hat showed up and not a full blown costume with the spirit alongside Bandana Waddle Dee.

 

[RedMachine123]

This is merely the current status of things and its just matter of fact. Sakurai himself has even commented on how strict the Japanese rating board is and how they wouldn't even let Mai be a background character without raising the game's rating. Other examples include Tharja's trophy being outright cut from Smash 4 and Palutena, Corrin, and Bayo all having to have some degree of censorship to be allowed to be playable. It's not a fan rule, it's a literal rule that's been in effect the last two games.

So they aren't too revealing to be assist trophies but they are too revealing to be fighters? And even if that was the case Nintendo could censor them just like you said.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Even so, Midna never had a Mii Costume and there's always been demand for more Zelda characters that aren't variations of the Triforce trio. That, and if we factor in certain other elements, Dixie Kong is also possible since only her hat showed up and not a full blown costume with the spirit alongside Bandana Waddle Dee.

Midna's helmet is a hat and they likely didn't make a body suit for obvious reasons. Same with Dixie, same with Bandana Dee.

-Essentially creating a nude suit for Midna. The fact that Midna basically has the body of a little girl pushes that into NOPENOPENOPE territory.

-Creating a bottomless body suit with a woman's shirt for Dixie. Imagine putting Veronica or Ashley's wig on this and why the developers likely noped the **** out of that decision too.

-No amount of Mii Costume magic would not make a Bandana Dee Mii Brawler/Swordsman awkward as holy hell. Same with Marx.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

I could see the Geno Mii Costume coming back with Lloyd as a playable character and viceversa (Lloyd Mii costume coming back with Geno as a playable fighter). The Virtua Fighter Mii Costumes came back with Terry, and Heihachi came back with Min Min. All of them are fighting games, and SMRPG and Tales are RPGs. Yes one is turn-based and the other is an action RPG but go ahead and try to convince people that Tekken and ARMS play the same.

The one constant with DLC content from third parties is that Square content has only released with other Square content, going back to Cloud being added in Smash 4. Even though the Square/Nintendo relationship has been incredible lately, it doesn't change how protective Square is of their content. Cloud came with himself, Midgar, 2 songs, Geno and Chocobo costumes. Then there are the rumors that it was very difficult to get Cloud back as a base game character for Ultimate (SE wants to monetize anything they can). Next, we see that Hero came with all his content and only costumes from his own series. To me, it's pretty clear that another Square character is guaranteed (very likely to be Geno) and they will return both of the missing mii costumes.

Edit: Also forgot to include that the Trials of Mana spirit additions came with itself, of course.

 

[TheShiningAbsol]

This is merely the current status of things and its just matter of fact. Sakurai himself has even commented on how strict the Japanese rating board is and how they wouldn't even let Mai be a background character without raising the game's rating. Other examples include Tharja's trophy being outright cut from Smash 4 and Palutena, Corrin, and Bayo all having to have some degree of censorship to be allowed to be playable. It's not a fan rule, it's a literal rule that's been in effect the last two games.

Well by that logic, spirits did deconfirm until one got promoted. The idea that something can’t happen because it hasn’t happened yet is something this thread was vehemently against. And my post wasn’t just talking about the upskirts point, not sure why you focused on just that one.

 

[RedMachine123]

Midna's helmet is a hat and they likely didn't make a body suit for obvious

What helmet are you talking about? There isn't any Midna helmet in Smash. And even if it was it would be unfair to count Midna out because she has a helmet and not Waluigi because he also has a cap.

 

[Vector Victor]

The one constant with DLC content from third parties is that Square content has only released with other Square content, going back to Cloud being added in Smash 4. Even though the Square/Nintendo relationship has been incredible lately, it doesn't change how protective Square is of their content. Cloud came with himself, Midgar, 2 songs, Geno and Chocobo costumes. Then there are the rumors that it was very difficult to get Cloud back as a base game character for Ultimate (SE wants to monetize anything they can). Next, we see that Hero came with all his content and only costumes from his own series. To me, it's pretty clear that another Square character is guaranteed (very likely to be Geno) and they will return both of the missing mii costumes.

Which is why I don't believe for a second that only Eleven will get an amiibo. Square letting that money train depart early without the other 3, especially Erdrick? Please.

 

[Ovaltine]

Which is why I don't believe for a second that only Eleven will get an amiibo. Square letting that money train depart early without the other 3, especially Erdrick? Please.

Please give Eight an amiibo, Nintendo. He deserves it. Give it to him.

... Please??

The one constant with DLC content from third parties is that Square content has only released with other Square content, going back to Cloud being added in Smash 4. Even though the Square/Nintendo relationship has been incredible lately, it doesn't change how protective Square is of their content. Cloud came with himself, Midgar, 2 songs, Geno and Chocobo costumes. Then there are the rumors that it was very difficult to get Cloud back as a base game character for Ultimate (SE wants to monetize anything they can). Next, we see that Hero came with all his content and only costumes from his own series. To me, it's pretty clear that another Square character is guaranteed (very likely to be Geno) and they will return both of the missing mii costumes.

That's actually a valid point. It could easily be a broken trend, as many other Smash 'trends' have been, but considering Square is a third party and not first, it's a little curious.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

Which is why I don't believe for a second that only Eleven will get an amiibo. Square letting that money train depart early without the other 3, especially Erdrick? Please.

A good time to announce the additional Hero incarnation amiibos would be the fighter showcase for the playable Square character!

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I've been thinking

I still think high hopes for geno but I don't think he's gonna be character 77 might be 78 or whatever

I'm thinking if it weren’t for covid we probably would have gotten a double reveal

And where I'm going with this is crash 4 was announced the exact same day as min min for smash About right after

So I think crash is character 77

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Honestly at this point I think I'm just looking for anything to temper my hopes for playable Geno because he just seems so likely now and it would be even more crushing if he ended up not being playable or worse we never even got more than a spirit after how far we've come and how hard we've pushed. But there's really no point I can think of against Geno that doesn't have reasonable counter points.

No matter what happens though I'm glad I was on this wild ride with the people in this thread. This community is truly incredible. Hopefully we will get some closure or at least clues in the fall if not earlier. After what happened to Heihachi, I really hope no fanbase has to endure that too. I feel really bad for Heihachi fans and I really believed he was happening over Llyod due to the impossibility factor and Ultimate's focus on the impossible. I just hope us and other big fandoms have what it takes to meet the "truly extra" criteria that is being used to choose these remaining 5 fighters because I've pretty much reached the point where I really do not believe in bonus fighters.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well by that logic, spirits did deconfirm until one got promoted. The idea that something can’t happen because it hasn’t happened yet is something this thread was vehemently against. And my post wasn’t just talking about the upskirts point, not sure why you focused on just that one.

Except there's definitely a clear cut difference. Sakurai himself has gone in-depth about the strictestness of CERO multiple times:

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/18/cero-and-palutenas-censorship/

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2019...ment-masahiro-sakurai-was-none-too-impressed/

Sakurai never said spirits deconfirmed. THAT is a fan rule. CERO being up Sakurai's ass for minor transgressions is not.

As for your other argument, I've got to level with you... Is there really enough demand to warrant a third Castlevania rep? A second Bayonetta? Metal Gear Solid? A third Street Fighter? It's one thing for first party franchises to get multiple characters even if they're not in demand but it's quite another for third. Sonic's probably the only third party franchise that has enough demand for a second addition and Tails and Knuckles are already Mii costumed. Arguing for Shadow now is kind of a stretch, especially in the light that they couldn't justify him as an Echo. Again, it's just the current state of things. I can't force you to bet on certain horses but there's enough to suggest "mmmm, you probably shouldn't."

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

I've been thinking

I still think high hopes for geno but I don't think he's gonna be character 77 might be 78 or whatever

I'm thinking if it weren’t for covid we probably would have gotten a double reveal

And where I'm going with this is crash 4 was announced the exact same day as min min for smash About right after

So I think crash is character 77

It could happen, but it'd be a little weird since Crash 4 isn't even officially coming to Switch, on top of Crash rumors surfacing after the Geno rumors. I think Crash is pretty likely, but my guess is FP8 or FP9 and they'll probably announce Crash 4 coming to Switch around that time or something.

Man this wait has been tough, but it's really nice to have speculation be this wide open right now

 

[TriggerX]

So I've seen a lot of people stressing about the belated appearance of Heihachi's costume and using that to say that Geno could get shafted just as easily. While technically possible, lemme just say that I honestly don't think Sakurai would be that cruel. Consider this: Geno has not only had a sizeable following since Brawl, but even Sakurai has acknowledged his demand on SEVERAL occasions. I refuse to believe that Sakurai would be so incredibly tone deaf and apathetic that he would wait until pretty much the very end of Ultimate's development cycle to finally twist in the knife. He could have dropped Geno's costume with the base game. He didn't. He could have easily dropped it with Hero. He didn't. As we've seen, he could have dropped it with pretty much ANY character. He didn't. He even went so far as to promote a spirit and go out of his way to say that spirit battles could get retconned in the future. Why the hell would he feed our hope for SO LONG only to bone us hard at the end?

The thing is, I'm fairly confident that if he were planning to bone Geno for season 2, then he would have dropped the costume with Byleth at the latest. And let's be honest, all due respect to Heihachi, his following was never anywhere near the level of Geno, nor was his potential moveset considered to be as interesting by the general fandom. The two characters are not an "apples to apples" scenario so we can't really say one's fate dictates the other.

Could’ve swore Heihachi has been mentioned a few times by Sakurai. Even said he was highly requested.
Heihachi was actually considered at some point.

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/06/26/800/

Idk Geno really isn’t that different by comparison. Monster Hunter is extremely popular too, although never mentioned by Sakurai like Heihachi and Geno has.
Either way it does suck that Nintendo just didn’t release all these old mii costumes earlier, just seems like it’s in bad taste.

 

[7NATOR]

Except there's definitely a clear cut difference. Sakurai himself has gone in-depth about the strictestness of CERO multiple times:

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/18/cero-and-palutenas-censorship/

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2019...ment-masahiro-sakurai-was-none-too-impressed/

Sakurai never said spirits deconfirmed. THAT is a fan rule. CERO being up Sakurai's ass for minor transgressions is not.

As for your other argument, I've got to level with you... Is there really enough demand to warrant a third Castlevania rep? A second Bayonetta? Metal Gear Solid? A third Street Fighter? It's one thing for first party franchises to get multiple characters even if they're not in demand but it's quite another for third. Sonic's probably the only third party franchise that has enough demand for a second addition and Tails and Knuckles are already Mii costumed. Arguing for Shadow now is kind of a stretch, especially in the light that they couldn't justify him as an Echo. Again, it's just the current state of things. I can't force you to bet on certain horses but there's enough to suggest "mmmm, you probably shouldn't."

This is actually the first time I've seen you mention Shadow. I just like to say I argue for Shadow like every day, and I have the knowledge to say that Shadow is likely to be in. That's all, carry on Geno bros

 

[Dr.DonPatch64]

Except there's definitely a clear cut difference. Sakurai himself has gone in-depth about the strictestness of CERO multiple times:

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/18/cero-and-palutenas-censorship/

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2019...ment-masahiro-sakurai-was-none-too-impressed/

Sakurai never said spirits deconfirmed. THAT is a fan rule. CERO being up Sakurai's ass for minor transgressions is not.

As for your other argument, I've got to level with you... Is there really enough demand to warrant a third Castlevania rep? A second Bayonetta? Metal Gear Solid? A third Street Fighter? It's one thing for first party franchises to get multiple characters even if they're not in demand but it's quite another for third. Sonic's probably the only third party franchise that has enough demand for a second addition and Tails and Knuckles are already Mii costumed. Arguing for Shadow now is kind of a stretch, especially in the light that they couldn't justify him as an Echo. Again, it's just the current state of things. I can't force you to bet on certain horses but there's enough to suggest "mmmm, you probably shouldn't."

Fan rules bother me since they restrict characters that people want, make assumptions that have little to no evidence, and soon they will be proven false.
The only rule that is confirmed is that only video game characters (which means if they originated from the games) need to be in the game, not anime characters..

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

Fan rules bother me since they restrict characters that people want, make assumptions that have little to no evidence, and soon they will be proven false.
The only rule that is confirmed is that only video game characters (which means if they originated from the games) need to be in the game, not anime characters..

There is a difference between saying a character is impossible and deducing why some are very unlikely. FMOI is doing the latter, which is the entire purpose of speculation

 

[Deleted member]

I’m happy Min Min was the rep. She deserves it the Mii Costumes were great.

Vault Boy man.

Let’s go Geno! With spirits deconfirm out the window he has a good chance.

 

[TheShiningAbsol]

Except there's definitely a clear cut difference. Sakurai himself has gone in-depth about the strictestness of CERO multiple times:

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/18/cero-and-palutenas-censorship/

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2019...ment-masahiro-sakurai-was-none-too-impressed/

Sakurai never said spirits deconfirmed. THAT is a fan rule. CERO being up Sakurai's ass for minor transgressions is not.

As for your other argument, I've got to level with you... Is there really enough demand to warrant a third Castlevania rep? A second Bayonetta? Metal Gear Solid? A third Street Fighter? It's one thing for first party franchises to get multiple characters even if they're not in demand but it's quite another for third. Sonic's probably the only third party franchise that has enough demand for a second addition and Tails and Knuckles are already Mii costumed. Arguing for Shadow now is kind of a stretch, especially in the light that they couldn't justify him as an Echo. Again, it's just the current state of things. I can't force you to bet on certain horses but there's enough to suggest "mmmm, you probably shouldn't."

CERO is a problem, but that doesn’t change the fact that characters have been altered before (Black voids, Corrin got full tights, Bayo got body hair). The assists you listed probably aren’t a major problem for CERO, or else they wouldn’t be in the game at all, or they would have been altered already. Seriously, even if they only appear in limited fashion, you still have full camera control, it’s not like CERO would be like “oh but it’s only for a few seconds so it’s okay.”, especially when we know they axed something as minor as the Tharja trophy, and needed black voids added to a few others. And even if they did say that, Krystal could use her Command outfit, Lyn could get tights, etc.

As for the rest, shooting down picks for “lack of demand” (which wasn’t even the original argument you had against them) just seems petty. Saying it’s different for third parties when we don’t actually know that it is different is silly. Hell, getting Geno would break that rule in a sense, since he’s technically a third party from a series already represented.

Also, saying an assist can’t become playable because they also have a Mii costume (especially in the base game) is quite literally the same argument as “spirits deconfirm”.

 

[Fatmanonice]

There is a difference between saying a character is impossible and deducing why some are very unlikely. FMOI is doing the latter, which is the entire purpose of speculation

Exactly. Even if CERO didn't exist, the odds of Star Fox and Kid Icarus getting a fourth rep, and Fire Emblem getting a NINTH rep aren't exactly great to begin with so Operation: Trophy Wife is kind of a bust no matter how you slice it.

 

[Firox]

Could’ve swore Heihachi has been mentioned a few times by Sakurai. Even said he was highly requested.
Heihachi was actually considered at some point.

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/06/26/800/

Idk Geno really isn’t that different by comparison. Monster Hunter is extremely popular too, although never mentioned by Sakurai like Heihachi and Geno has.
Either way it does suck that Nintendo just didn’t release all these old mii costumes earlier, just seems like it’s in bad taste.

Did you also catch in that same Sakurai interview how he shot down Heihachi because "implementing Heihachi's movement in Smash would be difficult"? Another interesting excerpt from the same interview: INTERVIEWER- "Between Bandai and Namco, were there any other strong candidates for inclusion as a fighter (besides Pacman)? SAKURAI- "There were none." This, as opposed to Sakurai explicitly saying that Geno would fit great in Smash? Also note that Geno was the only DLC costume in Smash 4 to get his own splash screen and honorable mention? Yeah, sorry but Geno and Heihachi are not the same in Sakurai's eyes. But to your point, the method of costume releases has been in questionable taste so far.

 

[Theguy123]

I could see the Geno Mii Costume coming back with Lloyd as a playable character and viceversa (Lloyd Mii costume coming back with Geno as a playable fighter). The Virtua Fighter Mii Costumes came back with Terry, and Heihachi came back with Min Min. All of them are fighting games, and SMRPG and Tales are RPGs. Yes one is turn-based and the other is an action RPG but go ahead and try to convince people that Tekken and ARMS play the same.

tbf though Geno is a gunner and Lloyd is a swordsman. If geno’s costume is gonna come back then it’s gonna come with a character who is a gunner and if Lloyd’s costume is gonna come back then it will be with someone who’s a swords character.

It wouldn’t make sense to bring a gunner costume back during with a swords fighter as they’re 2 different styles.

all the characters costumes that have come back so far have made sense. For example heihachi came back with min min because she’s a brawler/gunner so any character with a gun could come back and any brawler would make sense to.

 

[MattX20]

So far, Square costumes came with Square owned characters as noted by the Chocobo Hat and Geno released alongside Cloud in Smash 4 and the DQ costumes coming with the DQ heroes. I doubt Geno's costume would show up with any other character in the pass, and remember, FF and DQ were the big ones and Geno's competition is all but gone at this point, making him the clear front runner

 

[Fatmanonice]

CERO is a problem, but that doesn’t change the fact that characters have been altered before (Black voids, Corrin got full tights, Bayo got body hair). The assists you listed probably aren’t a major problem for CERO, or else they wouldn’t be in the game at all, or they would have been altered already. Seriously, even if they only appear in limited fashion, you still have full camera control, it’s not like CERO would be like “oh but it’s only for a few seconds so it’s okay.”, especially when we know they axed something as minor as the Tharja trophy, and needed black voids added to a few others. And even if they did say that, Krystal could use her Command outfit, Lyn could get tights, etc.

As for the rest, shooting down picks for “lack of demand” (which wasn’t even the original argument you had against them) just seems petty. Saying it’s different for third parties when we don’t actually know that it is different is silly. Hell, getting Geno would break that rule in a sense, since he’s technically a third party from a series already represented.

Also, saying an assist can’t become playable because they also have a Mii costume (especially in the base game) is quite literally the same argument as “spirits deconfirm”.

I'll ask again... Does the demand justify the inconvenience? Palutena and Bayo were heavily demanded. Corrin and Byleth were basically walking ads. Like my last post said, it's reeeeeeeally difficult to justify a ninth Fire Emblem character at this point for example.

Also, it's clearly different for third parties... They've gotten in either because of sheer demand or being super iconic. Companies very clearly put in their best and/or most wanted. We're never going to have a third party character ala Wii Fit or Plant that virtually no one wanted. I don't know how many hearts I'm breaking right now but Bubsy the Bobcat is not Fighter Pack 7 or 8 or 9.

As for the Mii costumes, we have yet to have a Mii costume promoted to playable in the same game. This is different from assist trophies because Mii Costumes are technically a playable form of a character. Assist Trophies are not. Based on this, it's a pretty fair assumption that Mii costumes already in Ultimate will not be promoted. Not impossible but not likely for the reasons I stated. Based on this, a character would have to have a hell of a lot of demand to make this jump. Being brutally honest, Isaac and Waluigi are the only two that really have this in their favor:

https://sourcegaming.info/2020/06/20/mega-smash-poll-ssbu-fighter-pass-2/

I went up to bat for Bomberman but he's 50 here. Waluigi is 12, Issac is 15, Shadow is 33, so on and so forth. Even you don't personally like the conclusions I came too, it's merely how things boil down. Brass tacks, even if you were to set fire to my whole previous analysis, the most wanted first party AT promotions for the past two years have been pretty consistent and them ultimately going with Waluigi wouldn't exactly be a shocker.

 

[Theguy123]

Yoooooooo verg is back. Hans leaked anything smash but he had a bit of Pokemon news. At least he’s back though

 

[AceAttorney9000]

I don't know how many hearts I'm breaking right now but Bubsy the Bobcat is not Fighter Pack 7 or 8 or 9.

You're right, Bubsy isn't Fighter 7, 8, or 9... he's Fighter 10.

 

[zriL]

Did you also catch in that same Sakurai interview how he shot down Heihachi because "implementing Heihachi's movement in Smash would be difficult"? Another interesting excerpt from the same interview: INTERVIEWER- "Between Bandai and Namco, were there any other strong candidates for inclusion as a fighter (besides Pacman)? SAKURAI- "There were none." This, as opposed to Sakurai explicitly saying that Geno would fit great in Smash? Also note that Geno was the only DLC costume in Smash 4 to get his own splash screen and honorable mention? Yeah, sorry but Geno and Heihachi are not the same in Sakurai's eyes. But to your point, the method of costume releases has been in questionable taste so far.

"great candidate" and "great fit" are two very different things. There are many fitting characters (mechanically or thematically) but they are not necessarily great candidates for other reasons (legacy, popularity, etc).

 

[EntropyAtrophy]

To the detractors that come out of the woodwork after every reveal, y’all are just boring to me at this point.

Sure, maybe Geno might not be playable. We all acknowledge this potential reality.

however at this point it sure feels like one is grasping at straws by not finding him likely as opposed to the other way around.

 

[Firox]

"great candidate" and "great fit" are two very different things. There are many fitting characters (mechanically or thematically) but they are not necessarily great candidates for other reasons (legacy, popularity, etc).

LOL Splitting hairs are we? Are you trying to say that Geno isn't popular or that he doesn't fit mechanically/thematically in Smash? NEWS FLASH: Neither method of gatekeeping was enough to keep Snake, Bayonetta, Joker or Banjo Kazooie out of the game. Why should it stop Geno?

 

[pinshadow]

I'll ask again... Does the demand justify the inconvenience? Palutena and Bayo were heavily demanded. Corrin and Byleth were basically walking ads. Like my last post said, it's reeeeeeeally difficult to justify a ninth Fire Emblem character at this point for example.

Also, it's clearly different for third parties... They've gotten in either because of sheer demand or being super iconic. Companies very clearly put in their best and/or most wanted. We're never going to have a third party character ala Wii Fit or Plant that virtually no one wanted. I don't know how many hearts I'm breaking right now but Bubsy the Bobcat is not Fighter Pack 7 or 8 or 9.

As for the Mii costumes, we have yet to have a Mii costume promoted to playable in the same game. This is different from assist trophies because Mii Costumes are technically a playable form of a character. Assist Trophies are not. Based on this, it's a pretty fair assumption that Mii costumes already in Ultimate will not be promoted. Not impossible but not likely for the reasons I stated. Based on this, a character would have to have a hell of a lot of demand to make this jump. Being brutally honest, Isaac and Waluigi are the only two that really have this in their favor:

https://sourcegaming.info/2020/06/20/mega-smash-poll-ssbu-fighter-pass-2/

I went up to bat for Bomberman but he's 50 here. Waluigi is 12, Issac is 15, Shadow is 33, so on and so forth. Even you don't personally like the conclusions I came too, it's merely how things boil down. Brass tacks, even if you were to set fire to my whole previous analysis, the most wanted first party AT promotions for the past two years have been pretty consistent and them ultimately going with Waluigi wouldn't exactly be a shocker.

Look, as someone who agrees with you that the actual pool of likely upgrades is really small, saying that just because someone is a Mii Costume they won't be in the game is really dumb. A bunch of the mii costumes in the game are already based on existing characters. If they had decided to make a Min-Min costume base game like they did for Spring Man or Ribbon Girl would that have stopped them from putting her in the game? Or did they not choose either Spring Man or Ribbon Girl because they got costumes? Of course not, that's silly.

 

[AdamBel731]

Holy hell... Here's the link for you all:

https://www.serebii.net/smashbrosultimate/assisttrophy.shtml

I had NO idea the feature ran this deep... TL;DR version: more than 3/4ths of the ATs are turned off on specific stages. Even Wah-Mah-Gah is apparently turned off on particular stages.

Pretty much. Bottom line is that the "turn off" option is so deeply implemented into the game that promoting an AT into playable would be a none issue. Once I get to a stopping point at work, I'll do an analysis on this.

Huh... that's actually legitimately interesting that a good number of people (I'm gonna assume it is more than just you and I) didn't know the game had this many Assist Trophy parameters. Again, usually only the Knuckles and Alucard situations are brought up. Why would Jon even bring forth this link? I literally never see anyone cite this and it kind of seems like a smoking gun almost (which is why I am assuming it isn't common knowledge). So, Fatman, do you truly think Waluigi will come along with Geno and do you think Jon is hinting at the former character? Interestingly, go back and listen to any discussions video when Jon says how he thinks Assist Trophies can he upgrades and he NEVER brings up Waluigi. I know it would be a lot of work to prove I'm right here (and maybe I'm reaching), but Jon literally never brings up Waluigi. And yeah, there are tons of Assist Trophies he doesn't bring up (obviously), but when you hear Assist Trophies, who does your mind go to? Probably the most popular Assist Trophy who has meme status, a cult following, and a so-called "big controversy" surrounding him (again, it was only like 2 stupid fans). So yeah, I'm wondering the implications of this Fatmanonice .

 

[Dr.DonPatch64]

There is a difference between saying a character is impossible and deducing why some are very unlikely. FMOI is doing the latter, which is the entire purpose of speculation

Ok I see, I'm not good at speculation.