Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[link2702]

Favorite boss is kinda difficult to answer for me since i love all of em and it often changes...

I’d say at least atm, 3 way tie between yardovich(seemed to be one of the more intelligent bosses) the axem rangers(their “evil power rangers” design made em hilarious to me), and then maybe...bowyer? Just cuz the fight was interesting given the button locking mechanic of it.

Again this list changes constantly for me. I didn’t include mini bosses like croco or johnny jones cuz then I’d never be able to decide...

 

[Deleted member]

It's in replay mode. The original "leak" is in replay mode, too. You can tell by the fact that it says "Mii Brawler" which you can't write unless in replay mode where it defaults to the full name (Otherwise you can't have a name more than 10 letters long). You need to pause it right as the platform starts rising, then use replay mode's camera options to pan to the left, get the highest angle you can, and zoom in a bit. It's hard to line up 100% since I'm doing this on my Switch and taking screenshots and then comparing them after the fact. The placement of the characters doesn't matter.

Does this also address the color of the symbol in the middle of the altar? Hard to tell with your overlay.

 

[MisterMike]

Reminds me of K Rool's situation. I believe that Retro couldn't use K Rool in Tropical Freeze because Sakurai called dibs on him first for Smash. I apologize if this is wrong.

That was what an alleged insider source told the DK Vine guys when K. Rool was revealed.
https://smashboards.com/threads/news-how-fans-brought-back-k-rool.457451/
No way to know if it was real or not, but...

Actually, I wonder if video games licensing are similar to TV and movies. How many times have we seen how character X could not be in their source creator's work because they were currently being licensed out to another company?

If that's the case, I think we can all agree that Shovel Knight is a ****. He's in everything, all the time, without fail. He does it for free, so to speak.

 

[MattX20]

This is the game where Chrom is still part of Robin's final smash despite actually being a playable character. By that logic Spirits can't get upgraded at all, so I guess Geno isn't getting in.

You're forgetting that Chrom being part of Robin's final smash was from Smash 4 and not exclusive to Ultimate.

 

[OffBi]

I think that people glossed over this
But nintendo of europe twitter didn't post byleth today

 

[pinshadow]

I completely agree with this. BUT I also see Dante as sloppy seconds. MvC3 has his ultimate incarnation Imo and seeing him join something else really wouldn't be "new footing". This is why I don't see Heihachi making it either. Sloppy seconds is the perfect way to explain it, but then again you never know.

Maybe I just personally HATE seeing a character join crossover after crossover after crossover. Larger than life characters like Link, Ryu, or Cloud wouldn't go against this rule either. If Sakurai wanted a Street Fighter character there is only one go to answer. Ryu. Not like he would've picked any other person. Same for Soul Calibur. Why would they pick Mario with no weapons when Link is just as big of a name AND has weapons to boot.

Nintendo isn't going to not add Dante or any other character because they've crossed over into other games before, if that was the case than Terry wouldn't even be in the game.

I agree with the assumption that if you're making a big crossover appearance in some other game when Smash is happening, then yea, you probably aren't getting in. Square wouldn't put Lara Croft in Brawlhalla if she was planned to show up in Smash soon.

You're forgetting that Chrom being part of Robin's final smash was from Smash 4 and not exclusive to Ultimate.

I get that but acting like Heihachi appearing in a base game taunt means he won't get in Pass 2 is literally the exact same logic as saying Geno won't get in Pass 2 because he's a spirit.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Is this seriously the reason you think Nintendo wouldn't choose Heihachi over Lloyd? And you're saying this when Dante WAS in PSABR? (I know it was Donte but still). I actually agree with the Namco stuff, given that they may actually be able to know who's showing up, but saying that a character won't be chosen because they were in something else over 7 years ago is silly. Is Lloyd less likely because he was in Soul Calibur first? Was Terry less likely because he was in Fighting EX Layer?

The argument is timeframe and significance of the cross-over. PlayStation All Stars was basically Sony's Smash. On the topic of Tekken and Heihachi, I can go pretty deep into it but on the topic of PlayStation All Stars, Heihachi was literally picked as the signature Namco character for the game. Konami chose Raiden. Capcom chose the inferior version of Dante. Namco basically went all chips in for Tekken being a signature PlayStation staple. Beyond that there's other things like the fact that Sony has literally published a good number of the Tekken games so the connection is far from superficial.

 

[ForsakenM]

So I see a lot of people saying that Lara Croft being in Brawhalla doesn't mean anything for Smash and I have to say...you are being very logical here.

The first argument I see people flailing around is Terry Bogard, because he was a guest character in another smaller (dare I say 'indie dev') fighting game as well as a gender-bent nightmare addition to SNK Heroines...though that doesn't make him a guest character. Honestly, Terry is an exception to the rule with him being in Fightering EX Layer and Ultimate.

If you do a bit of a history, you'll notice that characters who make guest appearances in a fighting game tend to not show up in others for a very solid amount of time. While I cannot confirm this, I think this is likely something done in negotiations. Think of it this way: If getting a cool character in your game is a big deal and you pay a bunch of cashola for it, would you want someone else to be able to do that right after you and make it less special? Probably not.

In fact, I can't think of another example of an outlier other than Terry. Every other guest character appearance I can think of is unique to that game until that game stops getting supported. On top of that, Sakurai likes to have the big boom of surprises as we all know with that situation with King K Rool, so if Lara was really a part of Vol 2 I doubt Brawlhalla would get to show that off first. They likely would have negotiated for the rights to show her off in Ultimate first and if Square was unable to make that happen it could have been an issue.

Keep in mind that, even though Brawlhalla is much smaller than Smash, it's still a competitor in terms of being a popular platform fighter. Also, Rayman doesn't factor into this because Ubisoft bought Brawlhalla and thus it's now their property. This would be like if Nintendo bought Rivals of Aether and put Mario in it: it's theirs now, so it's like putting your own character into your own game, except you just got that game from someone else who made most of it already.

Also, the idea that a character was in a crossover game (like Marvel vs Capcom or Capcom vs SNK) and thus can't be in Smash is stupid as hell and is a non-argument due to Terry already being in Smash. There is a CLEAR difference in being a Guest Character in a base game that is not about crossovers (Like 2B or Haohmaru in Soul Calibur 6) and being a character in a crossover game (like Dante in MvC3 or Terry in CvS).

 

[Kewl0210]

Does this also address the color of the symbol in the middle of the altar? Hard to tell with your overlay.

Yes, all the colors are the same. This is like 10-ish seconds or so.

I don't know for sure if it's fake, I don't think there's a way to prove it objectively either way, and I don't feel like spending hours to get the 100% exact same camera angle, but I think it's pretty clear as far as the stage is concerned it's all just the vanilla game.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Guess which big indie character that wasn't in any indie fighting games like Rivals of Aether, Brawlhalla, Brawlout, ect? Shantae.

Could that be a sign WayForward signed a contract with Nintendo to have her only exclusively be in Smash and not any other fighting game? I know she is a Spirit, but she can be promoted.

 

[mynameisBlade]

Nintendo isn't going to not add Dante or any other character because they've crossed over into other games before, if that was the case than Terry wouldn't even be in the game.

I agree with the assumption that if you're making a big crossover appearance in some other game when Smash is happening, then yea, you probably aren't getting in. Square wouldn't put Lara Croft in Brawlhalla if she was planned to show up in Smash soon.


I get that but acting like Heihachi appearing in a base game taunt means he won't get in Pass 2 is literally the exact same logic as saying Geno won't get in Pass 2 because he's a spirit.

I'll be honest. I think what it boils down to, for me personally anyway, is I'd prefer to ONLY see NEW faces joining. Faces that have never crossed over to something before in full fledged fashion OR faces that you would literally NEVER expect to see like a "gory franchised" Mortal Kombat or Doom character. Cameos don't count against this. So Geno still needs that good old "welcome to another game" where he is FULLY realized. Seeing Lara Croft would've been a treat indeed, but now that she's in Brawlhalla....damn... Just damn. There goes a huge missed opportunity for one of the single most recognized female gaming icons that IS NOT HERE.

I feel like this is why seeing characters like Agumon, Doom Slayer, Scorpion, or Master Chief would be HUGE DEALS for the gaming world as a whole. Pokemon and Digimon coming together like that would be breathtaking and I'd be shocked if some of this has NOT crossed Sakurai's mind before. Like GO BIG or GO HOME. Don't just add characters to slighty surprise us for a few weeks, add characters that CHANGE EVERYTHING and SHATTER our thought processes completely just like Snake and just like Cloud. Banjo was a long time waiting I think. People were very excited for him, but I still feel Snake and Cloud were more jarring.

Here are some examples of what I would implant into Sakurai's mind if they haven't been thought of already:

"Woah!!! POKEMON VS DIGIMON??? Never thought this day would come!"

"OMG!!! MASTER CHIEF VS MARIO??? *tears of joy*"

"WOW.. The DOOM SLAYER is kicking Bowsersss ASS....with a SHOTGUN..WTF?!!"

"HOLY ****!..? SCORPION actually got into SMASH with a BRUTALITY Final Smash??!!!! MK X SF is now a REALITY in our universe???!!!"

"WOW GENO??? FROM SUPER MARIO RPG??? I actually really didn't think he would make IT?? HOW STUPID DO I FEEL?!"

Sakurai and Nintendo have done BIG things with this franchise, but I dare say, "GO BIGGER". Get the absolute most bang for your buck where it counts. Don't let working with "western companies" do anything to eat away at the greatest idea's that have yet to come to fruition. Give me a break. Smash fans are ready for the BIGGEST, most MONUMENTAL, OVER-ACHIEVING, announcements EVER TO HAVE been made IN GAMING HISTORY!!!???..

Sakurai has all the power and opportunities to work with the best of the best...but will he...? My mind says no...but please prove me wrong Sakurai.. Show us what you're made of. Don't go out with a Byleth, Incineroar, Corrin, or a damn Plant...... go out with THE BIGGEST SHOCK EVER! Blow our minds into the past THEN into the future THEN drag us back to the present *kicking and screaming WHILE applauding* to have our balls blown off by complete and total excellence all wrapped up with a big bow on top in the form of a single new character inclusion!!

Ya... THATS RIGHT!! DO this for ALL 6!!

 

[MattX20]

The argument is timeframe and significance of the cross-over. PlayStation All Stars was basically Sony's Smash. On the topic of Tekken and Heihachi, I can go pretty deep into it but on the topic of PlayStation All Stars, Heihachi was literally picked as the signature Namco character for the game. Konami chose Raiden. Capcom chose the inferior version of Dante. Namco basically went all chips in for Tekken being a signature PlayStation staple. Beyond that there's other things like the fact that Sony has literally published a good number of the Tekken games so the connection is far from superficial.

Yeah, this is a major reason why I don't think Heihachi is happening if Tekken gets a rep. As of Tekken 3 onwards, Jin is the main character, plus he has the whole devil gene thing.

Guess which big indie character that wasn't in any indie fighting games like Rivals of Aether, Brawlhalla, Brawlout, ect? Shantae.

Could that be a sign WayForward signed a contract with Nintendo to have her only exclusively be in Smash and not any other fighting game? I know she is a Spirit, but she can be promoted.

I'd love to see Shantae playable. She would be a fantastic addition.

 

[ForsakenM]

I get that but acting like Heihachi appearing in a base game taunt means he won't get in Pass 2 is literally the exact same logic as saying Geno won't get in Pass 2 because he's a spirit.

My only counter to this (since I agree with the logic here) is that Heihachi is a taunt which is TECHNICALLY a move built into another character's moveset while Geno is just a high-functioning PNG meant to replace trophies. Regardless, I agree with this, and the reason I think Heihachi isn't likely isn't based on this at all since it's not strong enough evidence.

 

[pinshadow]

The argument is timeframe and significance of the cross-over. PlayStation All Stars was basically Sony's Smash. On the topic of Tekken and Heihachi, I can go pretty deep into it but on the topic of PlayStation All Stars, Heihachi was literally picked as the signature Namco character for the game. Konami chose Raiden. Capcom chose the inferior version of Dante. Namco basically went all chips in for Tekken being a signature PlayStation staple. Beyond that there's other things like the fact that Sony has literally published a good number of the Tekken games so the connection is far from superficial.

Capcom and Konami chose Donte and Raiden because they were literally promoting their upcoming games. And being a Playstation-centric franchise sure as hell didn't stop Joker, and Tekken already has more of a Nintendo presense than he ever did. (I have alot to say on Joker and why his inclusion is more of a fluke than anything in terms of having Nintendo presence but the basic argument still stands).

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I'd love to see Shantae playable. She would be a fantastic addition.

She definitely would be great. A half genie half human girl that can transform into different animals and perform spells. She would be like no other on the roster.

 

[Lyncario]

That too. I think people forget that 2B was added to Soul Calibur 6 in December 2018, coincidentally the same month that Nintendo probably started to seriously consider a Season 2 for Smash Ultimate and the Fighter's Pass was already out. Again, especially in the light of both games technically being Namco cross-overs, I don't think Nintendo would have been okay with 2B being in Soul Calibur first if there were playable plans for her in Smash. Nintendo doesn't do sloppy seconds. This is also why it's my personal theory that Nintendo's not going to greenlight characters that were in PlayStation All Stars and, knowing this, why certain companies and franchises stayed the hell away from it.

I kinda get what you are saying, but Konami did their own Smash clone before Brawl, and it had both Snake and Simon in it.

 

[Opossum]

Because clearly it worked out so well for Rayman when he got into Brawlhalla

You're mixing up correlation and causation. Brawlhalla didn't prevent Rayman from getting in...Rayman was, truthfully, never going to be playable in Smash anyway. Ultimate's roster was decided before he was added to Brawlhalla, and his status as a flop in Japan likely doesn't help matters.

So no. I don't think Lara should be written off entirely because of Brawlhalla, or especially 2B because of Soul Calibur. Terry already shows that the argument is nonsense.

 

[pinshadow]

I kinda get what you are saying, but Konami did their own Smash clone before Brawl, and it had both Snake and Simon in it.

There's a big difference between internal crossovers like in the Konami Brawler, the Sega All-Stars games, and even the Marvel vs Capcom games compared to appearing in an entirely different companies game. Nobody is surprised to see Dante in Marvel Vs. People are suprised when someone like 2B gets in Soul Calibur or Lara gets in something like Brawlhalla.

 

[JarBear]

The CacoMallow leak is still alive. Personally, using the argument that "we can almost replicate "Topic" now makes it fake.

Umm, so getting close is a definitive t

Yes, all the colors are the same. This is like 10-ish seconds or so.

I don't know for sure if it's fake, I don't think there's a way to prove it objectively either way, and I don't feel like spending hours to get the 100% exact same camera angle, but I think it's pretty clear as far as the stage is concerned it's all just the vanilla game.

CacoMallow is still fair game in my eyes. We don't know if it is real or not until it is either shown or all of DLC is done and we don't see those. What's fascinating to me are those who Team 100% fake generally speaking use the argument of "We can almost replicate it ... so it is definitely fake!!"

Isn't that kind of argument more supportive that it is more real? If you can't replicate it, in any form (Angles, Hats in high quality, correct dynamic clipping) than doesn't it support that it is more likely real since it still can't be done?

That's what I take away from it. Im still 51/49, but still edge it to be more real as time goes since no one still can replicate it. Or anything else in that matter with the quality.

This is another reason why that IF this is real AND Nintendo has chosen not to do anything about it, the community in itself are trying to "disprove" it. The community is doing the work and Nintendo isn't showing their hand or going crazy on crackdown like they did with Pokemon. A leak like this is more questionable than Pokemon leaks when you think about it. Kinda apples and oranges if you consider it when it comes to acting upon the leak.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

What are the chances CacoMallow was a mod done by a SUPER DUPER modding creator? 0 to almost none I would say. But let's not forget that leak dropped around the 1 year anniversary of the Grinch leak so perhaps that might not be a coincidence? I hope it's a coincidence.

 

[Vector Victor]

Nintendo isn't going to not add Dante or any other character because they've crossed over into other games before, if that was the case than Terry wouldn't even be in the game.

I agree with the assumption that if you're making a big crossover appearance in some other game when Smash is happening, then yea, you probably aren't getting in. Square wouldn't put Lara Croft in Brawlhalla if she was planned to show up in Smash soon.

.

I think licensing is very tricky and very malleable. If we used the idea that if a character is in play for a certain time that they are locked out of anyone else's hands, then Square licensing Lara to Brawlhalla now would stop her from going to other cross-overs currently as the creators of Brawlhalla would be 'owning' her rights now and would decline offering it to someone else. And if Nintendo approached him right after this to have her in Smash, I don't think Square could agree to add her unless Brawlhalla owners also agreed or their time over her rights went back to Square.

Funny, it LOOKS like I know what I'm talking about, but I'm just speculating.

Like if Nintendo approached Square to make Geno playable, but Square right before this had a deal to use him or offered his time to another company, Nintendo could be barred from using him. If that was true, then him not being in other games now would benefit his Smash chances.

 

[Lyncario]

There's a big difference between internal crossovers like in the Konami Brawler, the Sega All-Stars games, and even the Marvel vs Capcom games compared to appearing in an entirely different companies game. Nobody is surprised to see Dante in Marvel Vs. People are suprised when someone like 2B gets in Soul Calibur or Lara gets in something like Brawlhalla.

Yeah, no. If what Fatman said aplies to 3rd parties starring in a game that was released over 7 years ago, then it applies to entire companies doing their own Smash clone.

 

[pinshadow]

Yeah, no. If what Fatman said aplies to 3rd parties starring in a game that was released over 7 years ago, then it applies to entire companies doing their own Smash clone.

You do realize I disagreed with Fatman on that right?

 

[Lyncario]

You do realize I disagreed with Fatman on that right?

My memory is not bad, it's extra bad.

 

[Burb]

The idea that a character cannot be in Smash if they've already been in another fighting game is demonstrably false.

Ryu, Ken, and Mega Man have both appeared in a multitude of fighting games (outside of Street Fighter, in Ryu and Ken's case) before appearing in Smash. Cloud appeared in Ehrgeiz. Snake and Simon appeared in DreamMix TV: World Fighters before Brawl and Ultimate respectively. Pac-Man was in Street Fighter x Tekken. Link appeared in Soul Calibur 2 after having been in Smash, a direct inversion of this theory. And while he didn't make the cut, Heihachi was once considered for SSB4, effectively destroying the PSABR-specific part of this theory (as he wouldn't have been considered at all if it were an issue).

The main argument I usually see in favor of this theory is the fact that Raiden appeared in PSABR over Snake, but keep in mind that PSABR was more of an advertising vehicle than Smash ever has been. A lot of choices for the roster were made as a direct result of advertisement. It's the same game that included the much-despised DmC Dante over the classic, more recognizable version of the character simply because DmC was upcoming. Raiden got in over Snake due to Metal Gear Rising, 100%.

No, I don't think Lara Croft or 2B are getting in, but I don't think Lara being in Brawlhalla or 2B being in Soul Calibur have anything to do with it whatsoever.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I kinda get what you are saying, but Konami did their own Smash clone before Brawl, and it had both Snake and Simon in it.

But that's an internal crossover.

On the topic of Ryu and Terry, they crossover a lot; it's what they do. Both are pretty much the signature fighting game crossover characters, period. It's not the same. For example, here's an outline of Ryu's crossover spread in 2015:

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/07/11/ryu-the-king-of-crossovers/

If Ryu is the Mario of fighting games, Terry's probably the Sonic.

 

[MattX20]

But that's an internal crossover.

On the topic of Ryu and Terry, they crossover a lot; it's what they do. Both are pretty much the signature fighting game crossover characters, period. It's not the same. For example, here's an outline of Ryu's crossover spread in 2015:

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/07/11/ryu-the-king-of-crossovers/

If Ryu is the Mario of fighting games, Terry's probably the Sonic.

Yep, Capcom and SNK were in steady competition throughout the 90's and early 00's when it came to fighting games, so that's an apt comparison.

 

[Burb]

But that's an internal crossover.

On the topic of Ryu and Terry, they crossover a lot; it's what they do. Both are pretty much the signature fighting game crossover characters, period. It's not the same. For example, here's an outline of Ryu's crossover spread in 2015:

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/07/11/ryu-the-king-of-crossovers/

If Ryu is the Mario of fighting games, Terry's probably the Sonic.

And Soul Calibur is made by Namco, who also developed Smash 4 and Smash Ultimate.

Not only are you shifting the goalpost, but you're destroying your own argument.

If a theory requires this many asterisks and has that many exceptions, chances are it's not a very sound one.

 

[Lyncario]

But that's an internal crossover.

On the topic of Ryu and Terry, they crossover a lot; it's what they do. Both are pretty much the signature fighting game crossover characters, period. It's not the same. For example, here's an outline of Ryu's crossover spread in 2015:

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/07/11/ryu-the-king-of-crossovers/

If Ryu is the Mario of fighting games, Terry's probably the Sonic.

But that's a Smash clone with Snake, which would make the novelty of Snake in Smash non-existant according to your own words, and have Nintendo be second.

 

[JarBear]

With this whole argument of who can be used or not could be put in a more, simple way that was brought up: Licensing deals.

Simply put, it may be MORE likely that if you see a character in another crossover game, the company that may have done the deal would have worked out a deal that said character cannot be licensed out for a period of time to other companies. I can see something like that. So for Smash, we probably won't be seeing Joker, Heros, Terry and Banjo being licensed out to other games for the next couple of years with the deal they struck.

So with that, if we see other characters being crossed over with other games, such as Lora Croft with Brawl-Smash Clone, we probably won't see her in Smash Ultimate. Since that team may have worked out a deal with Square to have those licensing rights for some time. Obviously not forever, but one can reasonable assume for a few years while the game is still being played and whatnot.

So to SUPER summarize: There can be mechanisms for Licensing deals (Cross overs like Smash, Tekken, Etc.) that SAID character can't be licensed out to other companies for a period of time. That does make some reasonable sense.

 

[JoscarGamma]

Wasn’t Hero at one time “deconfirmed” because Erdrick was appearing in Jump Force (I understand that the character is Dai)? IIRC at the time, the same argument came up that he wouldn’t be part of smash... I could be wrong

 

[Burb]

With this whole argument of who can be used or not could be put in a more, simple way that was brought up: Licensing deals.

Simply put, it may be MORE likely that if you see a character in another crossover game, the company that may have done the deal would have worked out a deal that said character cannot be licensed out for a period of time to other companies. I can see something like that. So for Smash, we probably won't be seeing Joker, Heros, Terry and Banjo being licensed out to other games for the next couple of years with the deal they struck.

So with that, if we see other characters being crossed over with other games, such as Lora Croft with Brawl-Smash Clone, we probably won't see her in Smash Ultimate. Since that team may have worked out a deal with Square to have those licensing rights for some time. Obviously not forever, but one can reasonable assume for a few years while the game is still being played and whatnot.

So to SUPER summarize: There can be mechanisms for Licensing deals (Cross overs like Smash, Tekken, Etc.) that SAID character can't be licensed out to other companies for a period of time. That does make some reasonable sense.

One big issue there:

A large chunk of the third party characters continued making cameo appearances outside of Smash.

Capcom IPs, Pac-Man, and Sonic are pretty much thrown at whoever asks to use them, indiscriminately. Your theory would require each company to have a different set of restrictions in place, and if that's the case, it's effectively useless to speculate about this, because who are we to say which ones have some sort of convoluted exclusivity deal in place, and which ones are free to throw themselves at anyone who asks?

 

[Fatmanonice]

The argument is timeframe and significance of the crossover, not fighting game appearances. Obviously Ryu, Ken, and Terry were in a ton of cross-overs before Smash so if that's all I was arguing the argument would be dead on arrival. For Rayman, Lara, and 2B the issue is timeframe and their debuts as fighting crossover characters. All of them happened since Smash Ultimate DLC was formally announced in November 2018. Smash Ultimate began development in late 2015 and DLC was supposedly decided early 2018. Do you see where I'm going with that? Heihachi and Tekken is just a whole other thing with Tekken practically being the signature Sony fighting game series for over two decades and honestly a ton of examples where it had been singled out as such.

 

[mynameisBlade]

There's a big difference between internal crossovers like in the Konami Brawler, the Sega All-Stars games, and even the Marvel vs Capcom games compared to appearing in an entirely different companies game. Nobody is surprised to see Dante in Marvel Vs. People are suprised when someone like 2B gets in Soul Calibur or Lara gets in something like Brawlhalla.

I guess that makes a lot more sense than I previously thought. When a character like Dante got into MvC, it must've been more like "when" and not "if". So a Smash inclusion would still be quite exciting to a lot of people. I honestly had never thought of it this way, but looking at "Vs games" like that makes it much easier for me mentally. I'm glad you brought this up.

 

[MattX20]

With this whole argument of who can be used or not could be put in a more, simple way that was brought up: Licensing deals.

Simply put, it may be MORE likely that if you see a character in another crossover game, the company that may have done the deal would have worked out a deal that said character cannot be licensed out for a period of time to other companies. I can see something like that. So for Smash, we probably won't be seeing Joker, Heros, Terry and Banjo being licensed out to other games for the next couple of years with the deal they struck.

So with that, if we see other characters being crossed over with other games, such as Lora Croft with Brawl-Smash Clone, we probably won't see her in Smash Ultimate. Since that team may have worked out a deal with Square to have those licensing rights for some time. Obviously not forever, but one can reasonable assume for a few years while the game is still being played and whatnot.

So to SUPER summarize: There can be mechanisms for Licensing deals (Cross overs like Smash, Tekken, Etc.) that SAID character can't be licensed out to other companies for a period of time. That does make some reasonable sense.

Correct. Licensing deals are the main crux that will keep some characters in or out of Smash. It all depends on who licensed out the characters at the time and how long that can be held. The main reason Snake wasn't in Playstation All Stars wasn't just Raiden and MG Rising promotion, but Brawl still held the rights for a little while.

 

[Burb]

The argument is timeframe and significance of the crossover, not fighting game appearances. Obviously Ryu, Ken, and Terry were in a ton of cross-overs before Smash so if that's all I was arguing the argument would be dead on arrival. For Rayman, Lara, and 2B the issue is timeframe and their debuts as fighting crossover characters. All of them happened since Smash Ultimate DLC was formally announced in November 2018. Smash Ultimate began development in late 2015 and DLC was supposedly decided early 2018. Do you see where I'm going with that? Heihachi and Tekken is just a whole other thing with Tekken practically being the signature Sony fighting game series for over two decades and honestly a ton of examples where it had been singled out as such.

The length between the release of Street Fighter x Tekken (which included Pac-Man as a guest fighter) and Smash 4 is comparable to the amount of time between the release of Smash Ultimate and the end of the second Fighters Pass.

So, that kinda does away with any "timed exclusivity" argument.

Correct. Licensing deals are the main crux that will keep some characters in or out of Smash. It all depends on who licensed out the characters at the time and how long that can be held. The main reason Snake wasn't in Playstation All Stars wasn't just Raiden and MG Rising promotion, but Brawl still held the rights for a little while.

Oh, so you have the contract details?

Please post them.

Kinda weird that Snake's "exclusivity" stretched THAT far, but Heihachi was still able to be put into consideration for an appearance in SSB4......

 

[ForsakenM]

And Soul Calibur is made by Namco, who also developed Smash 4 and Smash Ultimate.

Not only are you shifting the goalpost, but you're destroying your own argument.

If a theory requires this many asterisks and has that many exceptions, chances are it's not a very sound one.

So I really don't think it's that many asterisks.

Ryu us Mr. Fighting Games and Terry is Mr. Fighting Games #2. Having them as a guest in a fighting game is more common as such. These are both exceptions to the rule, as you don't see characters like Ezio coming back to Soul Calibur 5 or Yoda/Darth Vader/The Apprentice coming back from Soul Calibur 4 into Soul Calibur 6. Spawn was in Soul Calibur 2, and not only has not not returned in a Soul Calibur game since, but it's been THIS long before he was a guest character in another game (MK11, next month).

It's actually pretty cut and dry: barring popular faces of fighting games being guest characters in other fighting games and not including games that are built to be crossover games (like Blazblue Cross-Tag Battle), guest characters that show up in one fighting game tend to not show up in other fighting games for an extended period of time that usually lasts until the game they are in is no longer receiving support and that company has moved onto another game. This is most likely due to sales on that character now dwindling because a new game is in the works and they will not be there, thus the contract has reached it's limit.

Now, if you can show me another exception to that that isn't Terry or Ryu, I'd gladly take that information into consideration and reform my statement around that.

You're mixing up correlation and causation. Brawlhalla didn't prevent Rayman from getting in...Rayman was, truthfully, never going to be playable in Smash anyway. Ultimate's roster was decided before he was added to Brawlhalla, and his status as a flop in Japan likely doesn't help matters.

So no. I don't think Lara should be written off entirely because of Brawlhalla, or especially 2B because of Soul Calibur. Terry already shows that the argument is nonsense.

Imagine thinking you can say something like this when Ultimate is still getting DLC while also using Terry as a scapegoat when he is an exception due to his status and not the rule.

 

[MattX20]

The length between the release of Street Fighter x Tekken (which included Pac-Man as a guest fighter) and Smash 4 is comparable to the amount of time between the release of Smash Ultimate and the end of the second Fighters Pass.

So, that kinda does away with any "timed exclusivity" argument.



Oh, so you have the contract details?

Please post them.

No, I don't have the contract details. I just know I read in an interview somewhere a long time ago that was the reason why Snake wasn't in Playstation All Stars. I wish I saved that link/article, but that's what it said was the case.

 

[MisterMike]

If Ryu is the Mario of fighting games, Terry's probably the Sonic.

It's statements like this that curse the world.

 

[JarBear]

Burb Granted, this is more of a speculation regarding the whole topic of licensing, but we know certain characters have been lent out to several crossover games. Also, I am not assuming that all licensing deals are the same from both the said company that owns the character and the company that wants to use them. But let's focus on Smash itself to in a sense "constrain" the topic.

Which of the Smash DLC (and base third party) fighters have been used in Crossovers since Smash Ultimate has been out?

This is a legit question since I don't really pay attention to all the games coming out and those said characters.

So the idea of the "theory/speculation/etc." is Nintendo/Sakurai may have worked out a deal with licensing that let them license third party characters who may not be used for a period of time. Also COULD (just speculation/theory crafting/etc) That other third party characters who are being licensed out at this time ... or at least a time gap around the time of Smash Ultimate may not be chosen since Nintendo want's the "exclusive" use of the character for Smash at this time.