Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[pinshadow]

Obligatory reminder that:

A) Sakurai can and has lied in the past *cough* Rex *cough* (glares at Byleth)

B) Atlus specifically spoke of how Sakurai emphatically approached them for Joker and that he's a massive fan of the Persona series. We really don't know how much of the pass is Nintendo or actually Sakurai. If Nintendo had given him a theoretical list of 50 characters to choose from, I would argue that Sakurai still retained the lion's share of control. He could have simply used the "Nintendo chose these" to get trolls off his back for his choice of characters.


Fair enough, however, others might want to be more frugal with their financial vote.

A.He didn't lie about Rex. He didn't get in because his gane wasn't developed far enough to be included in the late 2015 project plan. What is so hard to understand about this. Hell, if Sakurai DID have control over the DLC, he probably WOULD have put Rex in.

B. Straight from September
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2019/09/11/sakurai-talks-more-about-smash-ultimate-dlc-development/

"First, again, the fighter lineup is basically decided by Nintendo. Naturally since they’re confident in me, they would consult me each time asking, “Do you know whether or not you could develop this character?” If the request is unreasonable, I can potentially refuse them."

What is so hard to understand abot this. There is no "list" Sakurai is given, Nintendo just chooses who they want in and ask him if he can make them in Smash. Why the hell would he lie about this?

 

[Polarthief]

I actually think there are even some people on this Earth that don't like a single character that has ever been in the roster period.

If that's actually possible, they don't own Smash or likely any Nintendo game. They may also be a grumpy, toxic, politician of age 60+.

****ing Mario? Yeah, of course Nintendo just had to advertise Mario Teaches Typing like that. Why couldn't we have gotten something more deserving like Ninten from Mother?

Grumpy old ****s who don't play video games and legitimately thinks they turn you into mass murderers. There's definitely people that exist that not just don't care for, but hate every character on the list because they're from video games, and people existing like that just make me sad. What an awful little world from the 40s~60s or so they must live in.

A.He didn't lie about Rex. He didn't get in because his gane wasn't developed far enough to be included in the late 2015 project plan. What is so hard to understand about this. Hell, if Sakurai DID have control over the DLC, he probably WOULD have put Rex in.

I won't be surprised if Rex (and probably Pyra, as a 2-in-1 character like Rosalina & Luma) is in FP2. That said, it's still kinda weird that Byleth is in and Rex isn't, buuuuuuut:

"First, again, the fighter lineup is basically decided by Nintendo. Naturally since they’re confident in me, they would consult me each time asking, “Do you know whether or not you could develop this character?” If the request is unreasonable, I can potentially refuse them."

This is why it makes sense. Nintendo didn't want Rex (and Pyra) and wanted Byleth instead. I think the translation in the direct wasn't fully accurate because the wording does make it seem really odd that he wasn't just pushed to DLC instead, but yeah, this is on Nintendo anyway, not Sakurai, even if it was a "lie".

 

[RetrogamerMax]

****ing Mario? Yeah, of course Nintendo just had to advertise Mario Teaches Typing like that. Why couldn't we have gotten something more deserving like Ninten from Mother?

The only two types of gamers that I can probably think of that absolutely wouldn't like a single character in the Smash roster would be gamers that only grew up playing the arcades or realistic FPS games on modern consoles. With arcade gamers would have to be someone that only played arcade games and nothing else and it would have to be someone that either disliked Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Mario Bros., Street Fighter, Fatal Fury, King of Fighters, ect or never played any of them. With FPS gamers it would have to be someone who doesn't like Nintendo, platformers, adventure games, JRPGs, fighting games, racing games, cartoony characters, characters without a gun, ect. Those are the only two TYPES of gamers I can think of that wouldn't like a single character in Smash are old arcade farts that don't like a lot of the big hits and super normy FPS kids and adults that only want to play stuff like COD, Halo, GOW, ect.

 

[Megadoomer]

I mean, duh? I don't think 100% of humanity has ever agreed on any one thing, ever. I'd be willing to bet you anything there's at least one person in existence who thought breathing or (clean and drinkable) water is bad for you.

There's never pleasing 100% of your fans, but you can please as many as possible with highly-requested characters and big-name characters from games that people really like. It might be annoying but sometimes being the biggest and loudest leads to someone noticing, especially if it's feasible to get the character in the game; this is probably the only reason someone like Sora isn't in yet because not only do you have to talk to Square, who are already notorious dickbags, but getting DISNEY on board would be an even bigger hurdle, despite Sora clearly being among the biggest names across all 3 majorly tracked areas: West, East, and Europe.

Yeah, I realize that I was kind of stating the obvious there, but even with historic franchises like Dragon Quest or well-known companies like SNK, you have people dismissing them as "Sakurai picks" and acting like there was no demand for them despite their dedicated fanbases, or people retroactively claiming that the demand for Ridley or Geno was "just a meme". I figure that people are going to complain no matter who gets picked.

 

[Lyncario]

Three cups of coffee and an Addreall and, oh boy, it's time for more theorycrafting! Today's topic, analyzing Sakurai's dumps... The Mii costume ones. So, per usual, we're using Power of Six theory as our foundation. Quick recap:

"The theory that, when the Fighter's Pass was originally one and done, each pack was meant to have 6 Mii costumes that thematically fit with the pack's character and bring back all 15 of the Smash 4 third party DLC costumes."

Here is our theoretical model:

-Joker (4 Persona, Tails and Knuckles, SEGA theme)

-Hero (4 Dragon Quest, Geno and Chocobo, Square theme)

-Banjo (4 Megaman, Goemon, and Rocket Grunt, the "Dump")

-Terry (3 SNK, Akira, Jacky, and Heihachi, Fighting Game theme)

-Byleth (Ancient Armor, Rex, Lloyd, Gil, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos, Medieval Fantasy RPG theme)

Here's what we actually wound up with:

-Joker (4 Persona, Tails and Knuckles, SEGA theme)

-Hero (4 Dragon Quest, Dragon Quest theme)

-Banjo (2 Megaman, Goemon, Sans, and Rocket Grunt, the "Dump")

-Terry (3 SNK, Akira, and Jacky, Fighting Game theme)

-Byleth (Altair, Rabbids, 2 Megaman, and Cuphead, the "Dump 2": the Second Dumping)

Smash 4 costumes that are MIA:

-Geno and Chocobo (Square)
-Lloyd, Gil, and Heihachi (Namco)
-Rathalos and Monster Hunter (Capcom)

Using this model, we've already theorized that 3 of the 6 Season 2 characters will be Square, Namco, and Capcom. What I realized today is that we can take this even further by looking at Sakurai's dumps under a microscope. First question to be asked, what is the purpose of a "dump?" The answer is to get rid of excess. The Fighter's Pass wound up having two dumps where the Mii costumes had little to do with the actual character; why? Let's go into that.

One strong point of analysis is that SEGA saw all of its Smash 4 costumes return in the Fighter's Pass. This presents the strong argument that we're not going to be seeing anymore SEGA characters because, if we were, one of the pairs would have been saved at the very least. What companies did we see in the pass but only as Mii costumes? Konami (Goemon), the Pokemon Company (Rocket Grunt), Ubisoft (Ezio and Rabbids), and the two indies (Sans and Cuphead). Using the same frame of analysis as we did SEGA, we can likely safely deduce that these companies won't be getting characters in the future because, again, if they were, why would they have content now? This makes the dumps a lot more interesting and perhaps gives them more meaning than we originally thought.

Banjo is RARE/Microsoft but came with no RARE/Microsoft costumes and Byleth is Nintendo but came with no Nintendo costumes. Very strange. As Power of Six shows us, Byleth very easily could have come with Rex and Ancient Armor but didn't. Two Nintendo costumes that very easily fit Byleth's theme but were made bonuses instead. Again, a very strange decision... Or is it?

Going off this model we set up, let's propose that the reason these two dumps happened was because Microsoft and Nintendo costumes were being saved for later. What does this imply? It's very simple: there's a pack coming later that's Nintendo and one that's Microsoft. As pointed out, Mii costume theming appears to be very deliberate, even with the dumps. The "dumps" are either excess or companies that won't have their own pack. Let's bring Geno in because I like to see people squirm.

"Geno and Chocobo weren't in Hero's pack because they wanted to keep the theme strictly Dragon Quest." Exactly. Think about it. Traditionally, Dragon Quest is the Enix side of Square Enix. Nowadays, it's technically owned by Armor Project and Bird Studio. It's not purely Square... But Geno and Chocobo are. See where I'm going with this? Using this observation, we can not only theorize that the purely Square content is being saved for another pack but this was done deliberately. So, ladies and gentlemen, what does this probably tell us? It tells us that the mystery Square Enix character is, just that, a purely Square character. Again, theming. If it was anything else, there would be no need to "save" Geno and Chocobo for later. 2B is part Platinum. Sora is Disney. Pretty groovy.

So, in conclusion, here's some things we can gather based on today's theorycraft:

-We already established that Square, Namco, and Capcom were highly probable based on missing Mii costumes but we can take this even further by looking at missing companies represented by Mii costumes.

-Based on the dumps and theming, we now have a strong hypothesis that two of the six packs will be Microsoft and Nintendo.

-We also have a new theory that our mystery Square Enix character will be a purely Square character.

Hope you all have fun with this.

I can't help but see one big flaw with this theory. Nintendo chose the dlc, but Sans was added as a Mii costume because Toby defeated Sakurai in his own game. Seeing the reception to Mii Sans, Sakurai probably went ahead to ask for the Cuphead Mii. This would mean that Mii costumes are ready at least one challenger pack in advance, and at most 2, and they would also be decided by Sakurai, not Nintendo, they would likely just give their ok for it. And well, we know how Sakurai thinks about overrepresenting a series, he doesn't care that FE has 8 fighters while DK and Kirby have 3, so why would he care about a company getting more Mii costumes?

 

[Firox]

A.He didn't lie about Rex. He didn't get in because his gane wasn't developed far enough to be included in the late 2015 project plan. What is so hard to understand about this. Hell, if Sakurai DID have control over the DLC, he probably WOULD have put Rex in.

The DLC wasn't decided in 2015. He said that Rex couldn't get in with the DLC because Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was too new (released in 2017), then proceeds to add a character from a game that was literally still in development at the time. This makes his statement a pretty fecked up excuse. What's so hard for you to understand? Also, claiming that Sakurai would have chosen Rex if he could have is a big fat assumption. Nobody knows what goes on in Sakurai's head except for Sakurai.

B. Straight from September
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2019/09/11/sakurai-talks-more-about-smash-ultimate-dlc-development/

"First, again, the fighter lineup is basically decided by Nintendo. Naturally since they’re confident in me, they would consult me each time asking, “Do you know whether or not you could develop this character?” If the request is unreasonable, I can potentially refuse them."

What is so hard to understand abot this. There is no "list" Sakurai is given, Nintendo just chooses who they want in and ask him if he can make them in Smash. Why the hell would he lie about this?

Firstly, I was using the theoretical example of a list. I wasn't saying he was actually given one. Reading comprehension is great. Secondly, and on the subject of reading comprehension, let's take a closer look at his statements you so nicely quoted. Some key words:

"basically" and "they would consult me" implies that it was more of a collaborative effort rather than simply Nintendo ordering him around from on high. I could totally understand if Hero and Byleth were engineered from Nintendo's business interests, but the level of fanboyism that Sakurai clearly showed towards Joker and Terry makes it pretty clear that he was personally invested in them. To argue that Nintendo decided 100% of the fighters pass is to just be painfully naive. Again, nobody considers that he could have thrown the "credit" to Nintendo to avoid any backlash from the fanbase. Considering how incredibly toxic the twitter crowd alone can be, I don't see why that would be a hard motive to understand for skewing the facts a little.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

A.He didn't lie about Rex. He didn't get in because his gane wasn't developed far enough to be included in the late 2015 project plan. What is so hard to understand about this. Hell, if Sakurai DID have control over the DLC, he probably WOULD have put Rex in.

Fire Emblem Three Houses is two years younger than Xenoblade 2 so that should have been too late for the project plan as well since Season Pass 1 is part of the project plan and was originally intended to be the end of the roster.

 

[Polarthief]

Yeah, I realize that I was kind of stating the obvious there, but even with historic franchises like Dragon Quest or well-known companies like SNK, you have people dismissing them as "Sakurai picks" and acting like there was no demand for them despite their dedicated fanbases, or people retroactively claiming that the demand for Ridley or Geno was "just a meme". I figure that people are going to complain no matter who gets picked.

Selfish assholes (likely kids) who have no understanding that you shouldn't be so selfish just because you didn't get what you want.

Byleth's hatred is a bit more justified being the 8th FE character, who mains a sword, and is yet another blank slate protag. Not a lot of attachment to characters like that... though when you think about it, I even have more attachment to Zelda than I do the blank slate Links like the Hero of Time; at least BOTW Link has some character in the options you can pick, like "GIVE ME THAT" regarding the glider, lol). But yeah, it's mostly just people being petty. I have a lot of characters I would give a neutral/negative reaction to at first, but after thinking about it, I'd be fine with them existing in the long run. I've said before my initial reaction (usually just waking up to boot) is usually worse than after thinking it over awhile.

Like I for example; the only legit speculated possibility I'd be legit pissed over at this point is Urshifu. I'm even against Sora and MC, and seeing their reveal, I'd be upset, but after awhile, I'd be fine with even them existing (especially if Geno gets in). Urshifu not only takes up a slot, but also means Toxtricity will never be in Smash, and he'd be an awesome character. Sora and MC at least don't screw over other characters, y'know? I wouldn't even be mad at a Gen 8 starter or something I think is dumb like Wooloo or Yamper, because they're very well-liked. Urshifu... no one has any attachment to that thing yet; **** Pangoro 2 (I'd also gladly take Pangoro over Urshifu).

 

[pinshadow]

Watch the November direct again. When hes talking about Rex, he means that he was too new to be developed after the base game roster was decided, not that he was too new to be DLC. Nintendo just chose not to add him.

And if you are really disecting word choice this hard, remember that its still a translation, and that Sakurai tweeted this HIMSELF, in english.

"Super Smash Bros. Ultimate’s DLC line-up is now complete. This time the selection was made ENTIRELY by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan."

Again, why the hell would he lie about this.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Watch the November direct again. When hes talking about Rex, he means that he was too new to be developed after the base game roster was decided, not that he was too new to be DLC. Nintendo just chose not to add him.

And if you are really disecting word choice this hard, remember that its still a translation, and that Sakurai tweeted this HIMSELF, in english.

"Super Smash Bros. Ultimate’s DLC line-up is now complete. This time the selection was made ENTIRELY by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan."

Again, why the hell would he lie about this.

He made Rex a Mii costume and at the same time made it sound like he was too new to be DLC which, Byleth or any other potential Three Houses rep is too if we are going by the DLC.

 

[pinshadow]

He made Rex a Mii costume and at the same time made it sound like he was too new to be DLC which, Byleth or any other potential Three Houses rep is too if we are going by the DLC.

"We decided which Fighters to include when we started planning, so we couldn't add characters from titles like Xenoblade Chronicles 2, which was announced after planning had started"

Hes clearly talking about base game dude. It's still annoying that he did it but again, he probably didn't have a choice on making Rex DLC so he decided to settle on this as a consolation prize of sorts.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Firox I'm theorycrafting Microsoft because of the pure absence of it. If Banjo was the only RARE/Microsoft content coming, he probably would have had more with him. There probably would have been something like a Master Chief or Steve Mii costume at the very least. The total absence is very suspicious. Again, all the packs have strong theming except Banjo, the Microsoft pack, and Byleth, the Nintendo pack. Both are dumps and we have strong evidence that Byleth probably wasn't intended to be a dump originally because we technically already have two DLC Nintendo Mii costumes in the form of Rex and Ancient Armor.

Banjo's lack of Microsoft content is made even more suspicious by the fact that Cuphead could have come with Banjo but didn't. Toby Fox and Studio MDHR are treated like full on indie companies. Obviously, Studio MDHR has a very strong relationship with Microsoft so would make sense to be with Banjo's stuff but, again, wasn't. That seems to have been a deliberate choice. My theory is that Banjo was totally the end of Microsoft related content, Cuphead would have been with him. This suggests to me that more Microsoft related content is on the way, especially in the light that Studio MDHR was treated completely as its own thing.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

"We decided which Fighters to include when we started planning, so we couldn't add characters from titles like Xenoblade Chronicles 2, which was announced after planning had started"

Hes clearly talking about base game dude. It's still annoying that he did it but again, he probably didn't have a choice on making Rex DLC so he decided to settle on this as a consolation prize of sorts.

If we are really going by the logic that Sakurai didn't have a choice to make Rex DLC down the line, it means either:

A. Nintendo gave Sakurai a list of characters to choose from for Season Pass 1 and Rex wasn't on that list and we kind of know that SP1 was suppose to originally have been the end of the roster.

B. Same could imply with Season Pass 2 where Nintendo gave Sakurai a list and Rex again, isn't on it due to possibly being seen by Nintendo as not big enough of a priority to be sold as DLC for this game.

C. Sakurai has Fire Emblem bias lol!

A and B sound more realistic honestly.

Firox I'm theorycrafting Microsoft because of the pure absence of it. If Banjo was the only RARE/Microsoft content coming, he probably would have had more with him. There probably would have been something like a Master Chief or Steve Mii costume at the very least. The total absence is very suspicious. Again, all the packs have strong theming except Banjo, the Microsoft pack, and Byleth, the Nintendo pack. Both are dumps and we have strong evidence that Byleth probably wasn't intended to be a dump originally because we technically already have two DLC Nintendo Mii costumes in the form of Rex and Ancient Armor.

Banjo's lack of Microsoft content is made even more suspicious by the fact that Cuphead could have come with Banjo but didn't. Toby Fox and Studio MDHR are treated like full on indie companies. Obviously, Studio MDHR has a very strong relationship with Microsoft so would make sense to be with Banjo's stuff but, again, wasn't. That seems to have been a deliberate choice. My theory is that Banjo was totally the end of Microsoft related content, Cuphead would have been with him. This suggests to me that more Microsoft related content is on the way, especially in the light that Studio MDHR was treated completely as its own thing.

Master Chief incoming?!

 

[Firox]

Watch the November direct again. When hes talking about Rex, he means that he was too new to be developed after the base game roster was decided, not that he was too new to be DLC. Nintendo just chose not to add him.

And if you are really disecting word choice this hard, remember that its still a translation, and that Sakurai tweeted this HIMSELF, in english.

"Super Smash Bros. Ultimate’s DLC line-up is now complete. This time the selection was made ENTIRELY by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan."

Again, why the hell would he lie about this.

If you can't fathom why he would lie, then you still aren't reading my posts. Imagine the alternative if he told the truth:

"Oh, yeah, I wanted to add Rex but Nintendo didn't want to." Not only would that get fans going straight aggro on Nintendo, but Nintendo would go aggro on him in turn for throwing them publicly under the bus. The simplest way out was to simply say the timing didn't line up.

Also, do you realize the contradiction in your own post? You say:

"When hes talking about Rex, he means that he was too new to be developed after the base game roster was decided, not that he was too new to be DLC. Nintendo just chose not to add him."

Then quote Sakurai's own words, "This time the selection was made ENTIRELY by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection". So NINTENDO pitches the character and SAKURAI holds the veto power right? Well, if so, then why would you claim it was NINTENDO that shot down Rex in favor of Byleth? Wouldn't that be SAKURAI to shoot him down? Things don't quite add up here, but if you want to take Sakurai's every word as gospel, go right on ahead.

 

[TriggerX]

Firox I'm theorycrafting Microsoft because of the pure absence of it. If Banjo was the only RARE/Microsoft content coming, he probably would have had more with him. There probably would have been something like a Master Chief or Steve Mii costume at the very least. The total absence is very suspicious. Again, all the packs have strong theming except Banjo, the Microsoft pack, and Byleth, the Nintendo pack. Both are dumps and we have strong evidence that Byleth probably wasn't intended to be a dump originally because we technically already have two DLC Nintendo Mii costumes in the form of Rex and Ancient Armor.

Banjo's lack of Microsoft content is made even more suspicious by the fact that Cuphead could have come with Banjo but didn't. Toby Fox and Studio MDHR are treated like full on indie companies. Obviously, Studio MDHR has a very strong relationship with Microsoft so would make sense to be with Banjo's stuff but, again, wasn't. That seems to have been a deliberate choice. My theory is that Banjo was totally the end of Microsoft related content, Cuphead would have been with him. This suggests to me that more Microsoft related content is on the way, especially in the light that Studio MDHR was treated completely as its own thing.

I could see this happening. It will most likely coincide with Halo 6 releasing this year. If I’m not mistaken it should be a launch title for the new XB this year. Which means Master Chief could potentially be the last dlc character of the year if it’s tied in with promotions.

 

[pinshadow]

If you can't fathom why he would lie, then you still aren't reading my posts. Imagine the alternative if he told the truth:

"Oh, yeah, I wanted to add Rex but Nintendo didn't want to." Not only would that get fans going straight aggro on Nintendo, but Nintendo would go aggro on him in turn for throwing them publicly under the bus. The simplest way out was to simply say the timing didn't line up.

Also, do you realize the contradiction in your own post? You say:

"When hes talking about Rex, he means that he was too new to be developed after the base game roster was decided, not that he was too new to be DLC. Nintendo just chose not to add him."

Then quote Sakurai's own words, "This time the selection was made ENTIRELY by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection". So NINTENDO pitches the character and SAKURAI holds the veto power right? Well, if so, then why would you claim it was NINTENDO that shot down Rex in favor of Byleth? Wouldn't that be SAKURAI to shoot him down? Things don't quite add up here, but if you want to take Sakurai's every word as gospel, go right on ahead.

No? Nintendo just chose to put in Byleth because they either wanted to shill Three Houses or just have something from a recent game in the DLC. Rex likely wasn't even considered by Nintendo. Sakurai had control over the base game, would likely have added him in the base game but it was too late in development to add him. Nintendo has control over the DLC and chose not to add him. What is the contradiction here? Sakurai's only real decision is whether or not he can develop the character and make then work in Smash, if he can't make it work or come up with a moveset thats where the veto power comes up.

 

[Firox]

Firox I'm theorycrafting Microsoft because of the pure absence of it. If Banjo was the only RARE/Microsoft content coming, he probably would have had more with him. There probably would have been something like a Master Chief or Steve Mii costume at the very least. The total absence is very suspicious. Again, all the packs have strong theming except Banjo, the Microsoft pack, and Byleth, the Nintendo pack. Both are dumps and we have strong evidence that Byleth probably wasn't intended to be a dump originally because we technically already have two DLC Nintendo Mii costumes in the form of Rex and Ancient Armor.

Banjo's lack of Microsoft content is made even more suspicious by the fact that Cuphead could have come with Banjo but didn't. Toby Fox and Studio MDHR are treated like full on indie companies. Obviously, Studio MDHR has a very strong relationship with Microsoft so would make sense to be with Banjo's stuff but, again, wasn't. That seems to have been a deliberate choice. My theory is that Banjo was totally the end of Microsoft related content, Cuphead would have been with him. This suggests to me that more Microsoft related content is on the way, especially in the light that Studio MDHR was treated completely as its own thing.

Thanks for the reply, Fatman. Now I'm seeing your pattern. This does make a lot of sense, and as stated by TriggerX, the timing lines up nicely with Halo 6. Could Nintendo really be THAT ambitious? I certainly hope so.....

 

[pinshadow]

If you can't fathom why he would lie, then you still aren't reading my posts. Imagine the alternative if he told the truth:

"Oh, yeah, I wanted to add Rex but Nintendo didn't want to." Not only would that get fans going straight aggro on Nintendo, but Nintendo would go aggro on him in turn for throwing them publicly under the bus. The simplest way out was to simply say the timing didn't line up.

Also, do you realize the contradiction in your own post? You say:

"When hes talking about Rex, he means that he was too new to be developed after the base game roster was decided, not that he was too new to be DLC. Nintendo just chose not to add him."

Then quote Sakurai's own words, "This time the selection was made ENTIRELY by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection". So NINTENDO pitches the character and SAKURAI holds the veto power right? Well, if so, then why would you claim it was NINTENDO that shot down Rex in favor of Byleth? Wouldn't that be SAKURAI to shoot him down? Things don't quite add up here, but if you want to take Sakurai's every word as gospel, go right on ahead.

Also wait a minute, you're talking about contradictions in my post, yet saying that Sakurai said the timing didn't line up for Rex to avoid throwing Nintendo under the bus, yet also claiming he said Nintendo decided the whole pass so they would blame them instead of him. What?

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I could see this happening. It will most likely coincide with Halo 6 releasing this year. If I’m not mistaken it should be a launch title for the new XB this year. Which means Master Chief could potentially be the last dlc character of the year if it’s tied in with promotions.

If so it is looking like Master Chief could be a VGA reveal.

Okay guys I jumped into the off topic conversation too, but let's stop before a mod notices and get's this thread locked again because of us going off topic.

 

[DaxMasterix]

Idk man, I've never heard of anyone called "♪!?", so he totally made up some bullcrap name just to make him seem more important than he is. (/s)

I always thought it was a very good idea to call the Geno Fighter Spirit "♪!? "

 

[Firox]

Also wait a minute, you're talking about contradictions in my post, yet saying that Sakurai said the timing didn't line up for Rex to avoid throwing Nintendo under the bus, yet also claiming he said Nintendo decided the whole pass so they would blame them instead of him. What?

It's not a contradiction because both of his statements are a way to cover his own butt. The whole "Rex timing doesn't line up" was an easy handwave for Sakurai to avoid pointing the finger at who ultimately killed Rex (be it Nintendo or Sakurai himself). Then he started throwing around the "Nintendo decided it all" as a disclaimer for the DLC picks. It wasn't outright throwing Nintendo under the bus because none of the DLC characters had been unveiled yet. And that's not to say his statement wasn't MOSTLY true, but again, we don't know the full nature of the DLC's collaborative effort.

As for your own post, I see now what you were trying to say. Sakurai couldn't fit Rex into the base game because the development was too far when XC2 came out. As for who ultimately locked Rex out of the DLC, my point was that Sakurai is supposedly the one with the veto power, so either Nintendo pitched Rex and he shot it down himself or Nintendo just never put Rex on the table to begin with. Either way, we don't have enough evidence to know for sure who killed Rex.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So, my latest theory ties into a past about "time" and how Nintendo handles Smash DLC. It always starts with "itself", then companies it has already worked with, and then new companies before repeating the cycle. It is quite literally the order in which companies entered the series:

Smash 4- Mewtwo (the Pokemon Company), Lucas (Ape), Roy (Intelligent Systems), Ryu (Capcom), Cloud (Square Enix) *time gap between decisions* Corrin (back to Intelligent Systems) and Bayo (SEGA/Platinum)

Fighter's Pass- Plant (Nintendo), Joker (SEGA/Atlus), Hero (Square/Armor Project), Banjo (RARE/Microsoft), Terry (SNK), Byleth (Nintendo/Tecmo).

This seems deliberate. Again, going back to my last post, we've established that Nintendo, Square, Capcom, Namco, and Microsoft have a strong probability of being in Season 2. Based on past precedent, Nintendo will likely be 6 because it always starts with "itself." Now it gets a little tricky. Historically, Nintendo then works with companies and teams that it has already worked with. Capcom, Square, and Namco all premiered in Smash 4. Which comes first? That depends.

If the Capcom, Square, and Namco characters were purely from those companies, the order would be Capcom, Namco, and Square. The catch of this is that they would have already had some appearance in Smash already, especially the base game. For example, Capcom would pretty much have to be Monster Hunter, Square would have to be Mario RPG, and Namco would have to be Tekken to snag the coveted 7 (and probable E3 spot). For example, if 7 is Heihachi, that's pretty much GG for Monster Hunter being the Capcom rep. If Geno 7, that's RIP for Tekken. You can technically juggle these around to establish your own theory. Mine is Geno, Lloyd, and Dante based on this model.

From here, you have Microsoft but Microsoft really doesn't have anything "purely" Microsoft. Another RARE character likely isn't happening so it puts Microsoft in an interesting spot. No matter who they choose, they pretty much have to bring a new company/team to the table. This means Microsoft could be either 10 or 11 based on this. Either way, we're still getting one new company to the mix aside from whatever Microsoft antes up. This is why I have my theory of Crash (Activision/Blizzard) as 10 and Master Chief as 11 (Microsoft/Bungie) but the order is irrelevant.

 

[pinshadow]

It's not a contradiction because both of his statements are a way to cover his own butt. The whole "Rex timing doesn't line up" was an easy handwave for Sakurai to avoid pointing the finger at who ultimately killed Rex (be it Nintendo or Sakurai himself). Then he started throwing around the "Nintendo decided it all" as a disclaimer for the DLC picks. It wasn't outright throwing Nintendo under the bus because none of the DLC characters had been unveiled yet. And that's not to say his statement wasn't MOSTLY true, but again, we don't know the full nature of the DLC's collaborative effort.

As for your own post, I see now what you were trying to say. Sakurai couldn't fit Rex into the base game because the development was too far when XC2 came out. As for who ultimately locked Rex out of the DLC, my point was that Sakurai is supposedly the one with the veto power, so either Nintendo pitched Rex and he shot it down himself or Nintendo just never put Rex on the table to begin with. Either way, we don't have enough evidence to know for sure who killed Rex.

Fair enough.

Something semi related that also ties into Fatman's post is Rex's costume in the first place. I don't really think it was planned to be DLC at all, they just threw it on the Fighter's Pass to have a sort of bonus come with it. After all, if the costume was planned as a sort of "consolation prize" for Rex then it would have been planned earlier in advance like the Isaac, Ribbon Girl, and other mii's of requested Fighters. It wasn't a last minute addition either, Xenoblade 2 has plently of content in the game including the Nia costume.

Given that the Ancient Armor fits well with Byleth and is first party, I wouldn't be shocked if a similar situation indeed did happen here and the costume was pushed to be with Pass 2.

 

[MattX20]

So, my latest theory ties into a past about "time" and how Nintendo handles Smash DLC. It always starts with "itself", then companies it has already worked with, and then new companies before repeating the cycle. It is quite literally the order in which companies entered the series:

Smash 4- Mewtwo (the Pokemon Company), Lucas (Ape), Roy (Intelligent Systems), Ryu (Capcom), Cloud (Square Enix) *time gap between decisions* Corrin (back to Intelligent Systems) and Bayo (SEGA/Platinum)

Fighter's Pass- Plant (Nintendo), Joker (SEGA/Atlus), Hero (Square/Armor Project), Banjo (RARE/Microsoft), Terry (SNK), Byleth (Nintendo/Tecmo).

This seems deliberate. Again, going back to my last post, we've established that Nintendo, Square, Capcom, Namco, and Microsoft have a strong probability of being in Season 2. Based on past precedent, Nintendo will likely be 6 because it always starts with "itself." Now it gets a little tricky. Historically, Nintendo then works with companies and teams that it has already worked with. Capcom, Square, and Namco all premiered in Smash 4. Which comes first? That depends.

If the Capcom, Square, and Namco characters were purely from those companies, the order would be Capcom, Namco, and Square. The catch of this is that they would have already had some appearance in Smash already, especially the base game. For example, Capcom would pretty much have to be Monster Hunter, Square would have to be Mario RPG, and Namco would have to be Tekken to snag the coveted 7 (and probable E3 spot). For example, if 7 is Heihachi, that's pretty much GG for Monster Hunter being the Capcom rep. If Geno 7, that's RIP for Tekken. You can technically juggle these around to establish your own theory. Mine is Geno, Lloyd, and Dante based on this model.

From here, you have Microsoft but Microsoft really doesn't have anything "purely" Microsoft. Another RARE character likely isn't happening so it puts Microsoft in an interesting spot. No matter who they choose, they pretty much have to bring a new company/team to the table. This means Microsoft could be either 10 or 11 based on this. Either way, we're still getting one new company to the mix aside from whatever Microsoft antes up. This is why I have my theory of Crash (Activision/Blizzard) as 10 and Master Chief as 11 (Microsoft/Bungie) but the order is irrelevant.

Here's my question to you Fatman, of the four companies that don't have a rep for Smash, who should we be keeping our eyes on the most: Activision, Koei Tecmo, Level 5, and or Arc System Works?

 

[Icewolff92]

Couldn't tell you honestly. I'm not married to the idea of cacomallow's legitimacy either, but it's still a possibility.

I highly disagree concidering. like I said if CacaDemon is true. then the thought of The Marine to be playable. It¨s like taking a Chocobo costume but don¨t even trying to get something related to an FF protagonist.

 

[domriver]

Regarding this new FP2 im not sure if we are expecting NEW companies to emerge. I think maybe 1-2 new companies but thats it. The rest i think are going to be companies already in the game. Im hoping at least 2-3 FIRST PARTY Characters.

 

[Polarthief]

Regarding this new FP2 im not sure if we are expecting NEW companies to emerge. I think maybe 1-2 new companies but thats it. The rest i think are going to be companies already in the game. Im hoping at least 2-3 FIRST PARTY Characters.

This could be likely, given that Byleth broke the "New Rule". Maybe Nintendo wanted us to go into FP2 thinking there would be more first party picks: Waluigi, Bandana Dee or Impa, a Gen 8 Pokemon rep, and Geno being kinda from two worlds, who I could see being on the table. Kirby and Zelda both need-and-deserve a new rep. Waluigi's injustice needs to be undone. Pokemon is obligatory (#ToxtricityTroupe), and while Geno is a 3rd party character, he's from a 1st party universe: Mario/Mushroom Kingdom.

 

[Icewolff92]

This could be likely, given that Byleth broke the "New Rule"

Define new rule

 

[Polarthief]

Define new rule

The fanrule that FP1 was gonna be all new series (also kinda accidentally spearheaded by Reggie at the Game Awards 2018). Byleth broke that, as well as breaking the "only 3rd party rule" that some were expecting too.

I mean it was kind of expected after 4 new DLC, all of which are not only new series, but also 3rd party, you'd kinda expect the last one to do that too, given that 4/4 is most definitely a pattern. Regardless of the how or why, Nintendo broke those rules. It could potentially be because FP2 will be more 1st party or existing series/universe picks.

 

[TriggerX]

The fanrule that FP1 was gonna be all new series (also kinda accidentally spearheaded by Reggie at the Game Awards 2018). Byleth broke that, as well as breaking the "only 3rd party rule" that some were expecting too.

I mean it was kind of expected after 4 new DLC, all of which are not only new series, but also 3rd party, you'd kinda expect the last one to do that too, given that 4/4 is most definitely a pattern. Regardless of the how or why, Nintendo broke those rules. It could potentially be because FP2 will be more 1st party or existing series/universe picks.

I wouldn't consider ambiguous quotes taken from affiliates of Nintendo rules.

However you are right, Byleth did break that pattern. I doubt the character was added to the pack because of popularity, unless it only takes 4 months to develop a fire emblem character. Byleth may have been a Nintendo pushed decision early on if he/she was meant to be part of the pack.
Which makes me question how long a character like Geno would take to develop or if he is already in the works.

 

[Icewolff92]

Can someone explain to me why its called Fan rule and not Fan assumption or something along the lines? Fan rules come off as "we" control everything that goes on with the game.

 

[MisterMike]

Can someone explain to me why its called Fan rule and not Fan assumption or something along the lines? Fan rules come off as "we" control everything that goes on with the game.

It's called a "Fan Rule" because, while such claims are just reasonable assumptions at the end of the day, they're all too often treated as gospel due to their high probability. If there's an 80% likelyhood of X being true, then it's treated no differently than X being 100% true.

 

[DaxMasterix]

Can someone explain to me why its called Fan rule and not Fan assumption or something along the lines? Fan rules come off as "we" control everything that goes on with the game.

And also because it's just fan made, they aren't rules at all, but since there's people assuming they are 100% rules (Like Spirits and AT deconfirm or No 1st party in FP, etc), the rule part is to ironize it.

 

[JarBear]

I up vote both MisterMike and DaxMasterix . Especially Dax's additional to "ironize" it since those who make those "assumptions" state it as law-in-fact and are not open to hearing any arguments against their assumption ... especially since we all do not know for sure until Sakurai/Nintendo say something. (The only TRUE rule is no non-video game characters per Sakurai's words.) Other than that, especially for FP2, anything is on the table.

Hence, it is really a stab against such thinkers.

There is difference in having a view that is different than others, but to strictly say "My way is right and you are wrong and never will be right" is what personally drives me crazy. Either something is true or not, will happen or not, but outright dismissing any points or evidence that doesn't support you is tiring to listen to.

 

[CannonStreak]

You know, I personally think fan rules are just made up as an excuse to say a character someone wants is not getting in, mostly because people have been using them that way, through assumption that they are actually said or implied to be the case.

 

[Polarthief]

Yes to everyone above. I don't disagree they shouldn't be called "rules", but that's the irony of it, especially when they're broken and people flip out whenever it happens. Just the other day I saw someone unironically upset that non-Nintendo characters are in Smash, and it made me laugh that their "no third party 'rule'" was broken back in Brawl.

 

[PatPrime]

So you know how we thought there needed to be a direct for January in order to get information on the Switch SNES controllers?

Nintendo says news on the Switch Online SNES controller is coming in Feb. 2020 https://t.co/GsdQoCkoi4 pic.twitter.com/16PMm1V1AB

— GoNintendoTweet (@GoNintendoTweet) January 30, 2020

Lol

 

[egaddmario]

Why do we think more Microsoft content is coming? Isn't it more likely that Nintendo and Microsoft worked out a deal for JUST Banjo/Spiral Mountain/Spirits/Music and that's all? Just because other companies have mii costumes doesn't mean all of them have to. This seems like another fan rule that's begging to be broken.

 

[Polarthief]

So you know how we thought there needed to be a direct for January in order to get information on the Switch SNES controllers?

Nintendo says news on the Switch Online SNES controller is coming in Feb. 2020 https://t.co/GsdQoCkoi4 pic.twitter.com/16PMm1V1AB

— GoNintendoTweet (@GoNintendoTweet) January 30, 2020

Lol

What the **** they just pushed that from Jan to Feb now? Ffs.

Also they sold out already xD

 

[CannonStreak]

So you know how we thought there needed to be a direct for January in order to get information on the Switch SNES controllers?

Nintendo says news on the Switch Online SNES controller is coming in Feb. 2020 https://t.co/GsdQoCkoi4 pic.twitter.com/16PMm1V1AB

— GoNintendoTweet (@GoNintendoTweet) January 30, 2020

Lol

So, that could also mean a Direct is coming next month, which probably means they also delayed the Direct as well.

Anyone thinking the Direct could happen next week?