Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Droodle]

Gonna make a wild prediction. Fighter 5 is Sub Zero. Based on all the little things we've been told, I think he fits. Plus he'd be perfect for the game awards audience. Scorpion may be out of the running, but no one said anything about Sub Zero.

Bold prediction, but I doubt that we are getting a character from a series that is BANNED in Japan.

As for Geno, I'd give him a solid 25% chance at getting in Post-Pass. I feel 90% confident we'll see a Tales of character before DLC is over (Lloyd/Yuri), and that we'll see another Capcom character.

Third parties that I feel confident in getting in are Bethesda, Activision, Koei Tecmo, and Falcom.

I'm leaning at around a 50% shot at another Square-Enix character getting in, but I feel as though both Sora (TECHNICALLY Disney) and 2B give Geno a run for his money. Maybe Lara Croft too.

 

[MattX20]

Okay, so, Capcom. Kind of a weird situation. As a basic premise, I showed off the Power of Six Theory here because one of the strongest things in its favor was that it matched up with our intel with one of the biggest takeaways that there was a high chance of another Namco, Square, and Capcom character coming eventually. From here, let's go into some focus points:

-The Fighter's Pass was initially final.-

An important thing to keep in mind is from various accounts including Sakurai that from roughly Spring 2018 to roughly Summer 2019, that the Fighter's Pass was going to be it. 5 characters. Done. Sakurai goes to Aruba for a few months. Why does this play against Capcom?

-All the characters in the pass have been the first new company additions for the game.

-Capcom added Ken in the base roster.

This provides strong evidence that the Fighter's Pass was also meant to end on a "new" company to Ultimate, even if the company was from a previous game.

On the topic of finality, I've highlighted this before but I'll go over it again. This is more or less the premise of my "Thank You" theory:

Joker- Persona inspired Sakurai in recent years.
Hero- DQ inspired Sakurai virtually all his career.
Banjo- A thank you to the fans, going the extra mile to get a literal competitor's character.
Terry- SNK got Sakurai into fighting games in the first place so, without it, Smash probably wouldn't exist.
???- More than likely another character from a company or franchise that has a decent amount of signifance to Sakurai.

Capcom really doesn't fit the bill here, especially when you consider the previous points.

-Capcom in Insider Talks-

It might come as a surprise to people that Capcom is actually a fairly new addition to insider talks. Even more shocking, it's actually the third youngest with Crash being the youngest. What does this mean? Of the 10 or so characters that we've heard since last September that haven't been hard deconfirmed yet, a hypothetical Capcom rep is ranked 8th overall. For frame of reference, the first rumblings of Crash were late spring 2019. What does this mean? It creates an interesting situation. As we all know, the Fighter's Pass was finalized in early November 2018. For further reference, the 1-7 (which includes Geno and Ryu) were all first heard in 2018. For even further reference, Hero was late summer 2018 and Banjo was first heard late October 2018. If the 5th rep was Capcom, there's definitely a significant time gap of roughly seven months, ironically first being heard in a near time frame from when "Season 2" was first being heard. That said, it provides an argument for Capcom being post pass and, based on the time frame it was first heard, probably futher down the line leading to the next part...

-The Mii costume approach-

So, this is where we move to the center of the arena. With Capcom being heard "late", it makes an argument that it would be later. Like I've said before, various strands of evidence already point to future DLC (5 included) having reps from Square, Namco, and Capcom. Compared to the other two, Capcom was heard significantly later, also suggested that it too will come later. Going back to the Mii costumes, the initial plan seems to point at that each pass was to come with at least two MIi costumes from Smash 4. It's been walked down to death but the Geno Mii and the Chocobo hat would have fit Hero's pass like a glove and the same with Heihachi with Terry. With three Namco, four Capcom, and one Square Mii costume (plus a hat) currently MIA, which would be the most practical to knock out in one pass? Four Capcom in one pass would mean that the hypothetical Capcom character would have equal footing to another series, with two being Megaman and two being Monster Hunter. Kind of strange. Banjo was the only exception to this because he had no RARE or Microsoft costumes at all but perhaps was originally intended to have more of Namco's or Capcom's, if we make the argument that the original idea was to bring back all the Smash 4 costumes with DLC. This is somewhat supported by how San's was supposed a fairly late decision and possibly beat out someone else. Let's take this even further...

What happens if we were to promote two of these eight? Gil goes with either Lloyd or Heihachi and Chocobo goes with Geno. Fairly simple, leaving four Capcom that could easily be split among the two for the sake of completion and still follow the "rule" that no more than two full Smash 4 Mii costumes from the same company come back with each character. Neat and tidy, seemingly suggested by the original layout of the Fighter Pass that probably no more than 3 Smash 4 Mii costumes were intended per pass and, even then, probably still following the "rule" of no more than two per company per pass. Of course, another simple division from all of this is that two of these four could simply come with a Capcom character in the future. Oh la la! Which company currently has the two costume default already set up no mater the default? Hint, it's not Square...

-Examining the Possibility of Capcom at E3-

So, dancing down this road. Namco can take care of it itself and sticking two Capom Mii costumes with the ~mysterious~ Square character is simple so now we just have two Capcom costumes floating in the void. What's a more natural place to stick them then with a future Capcom character? Again, based on when we heard about a hypothetical rep, it suggests E3 or later if they even happen at all. Why also possibly later? Because, very recently, the Capcom name that we had been hearing since the summer was accused of being leakbait! Scandal! The keyword, however, is "accused" and, with no hard evidence yet, it merely casts doubt than entire damnation. Why is this significant? Because "leakbait" implies that it's information being used to purposely misdirect to cover up real information. The most famous example in the Smash fandom right now is how Steve was leakbait to protect the whereabouts of Banjo. If Capcom really is putting out leakbait with another character, who are they trying to cover up? From here, I suggest that the four Capcom franchises that have the most realistic chances in the future are: Monster Hunter, Phoenix Wright, Resident Evil, and Devil May Cry. Not a huge jump in logic because these are the four biggest franchises in the company not yet with a playable rep. Now, in my personal opinion, it's not Monster Hunter mainly because of all the content it got in the base game with music and even a boss. In my opinion, the Mii costumes are highly likely to return (probably with the hypothetical Capcom rep) but there would be little doubt of that regardless. So that then leaves the remaining three and begs the question, which is leakbait and which is real? Mystery upon mysteries. I only know the accused but they could be "innocent" or... they could all be bull****! Fun times!

Hope you all enjoyed this ramble on the whole Capcom topic. As always, this is merely my own speculation and I could be violently, unforgivably wrong on all of it but perhaps it's something to consider none-the-less.

It basically comes down to Level 5 or Bandai Namco as the last major companies left we can ultimately look at for Fighter 5.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, he did specify why. It was mainly because he would be a natural fit for Smash in his eyes thanks to his gun arm and despite his age, he's still a very popular request, especially with regards to older characters.
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/02/21/nintendodream3/
"Sakurai: To tell the truth, it’s because I wanted Geno to be a playable character. He has a gun for a hand, and I think he fits in really well with Smash. During Brawl, I thought it would be great if I could add him, but in the end it didn’t become a reality."
"Sakurai: That’s right. He’s very popular. When talking about older characters, Geno always gets a lot of requests. He didn’t appear as a fighter, but I was able to achieve something kind of close to that as a Mii Costume."


Hmm, first I've heard of a GTA track being taken down. Can you/someone elaborate on this?

it’s the video San Andreas and I’ve seen comments implying that the video was copyright claimed by Nintendo. It’s at the channel GeccoHane
Wait, he actually did say why he wanted to include Geno. I meant why he wasn’t included. My fault on the wording I’ll go fix it.

 

[MisterMike]

it’s the video San Andreas and I’ve seen comments implying that the video was copyright claimed by Nintendo. It’s at the channel GeccoHane
Wait he actually did say he wanted to include Geno. I meant why he wasn’t included. My fault on the wording I’ll go fix it.

Ah, I see. Anyway, I agree with your train of thought here.

- FF and DQ are two franchises Square Enix loves dearly and their out of the way. Square Enix may likely be more comfortable with Geno being playable since Nintendo basically did them a solid that putting Hero gave DQ more exposure to the West and help promoted DQ 11: Definitive Edition and their poster boy, Cloud Strife is in.

 

[Spatulo]

Okay, so, Capcom. Kind of a weird situation. As a basic premise, I showed off the Power of Six Theory here because one of the strongest things in its favor was that it matched up with our intel with one of the biggest takeaways that there was a high chance of another Namco, Square, and Capcom character coming eventually. From here, let's go into some focus points:

-The Fighter's Pass was initially final.-

An important thing to keep in mind is from various accounts including Sakurai that from roughly Spring 2018 to roughly Summer 2019, that the Fighter's Pass was going to be it. 5 characters. Done. Sakurai goes to Aruba for a few months. Why does this play against Capcom?

-All the characters in the pass have been the first new company additions for the game.

-Capcom added Ken in the base roster.

This provides strong evidence that the Fighter's Pass was also meant to end on a "new" company to Ultimate, even if the company was from a previous game.

On the topic of finality, I've highlighted this before but I'll go over it again. This is more or less the premise of my "Thank You" theory:

Joker- Persona inspired Sakurai in recent years.
Hero- DQ inspired Sakurai virtually all his career.
Banjo- A thank you to the fans, going the extra mile to get a literal competitor's character.
Terry- SNK got Sakurai into fighting games in the first place so, without it, Smash probably wouldn't exist.
???- More than likely another character from a company or franchise that has a decent amount of signifance to Sakurai.

Capcom really doesn't fit the bill here, especially when you consider the previous points.

-Capcom in Insider Talks-

It might come as a surprise to people that Capcom is actually a fairly new addition to insider talks. Even more shocking, it's actually the third youngest with Crash being the youngest. What does this mean? Of the 10 or so characters that we've heard since last September that haven't been hard deconfirmed yet, a hypothetical Capcom rep is ranked 8th overall. For frame of reference, the first rumblings of Crash were late spring 2019. What does this mean? It creates an interesting situation. As we all know, the Fighter's Pass was finalized in early November 2018. For further reference, the 1-7 (which includes Geno and Ryu) were all first heard in 2018. For even further reference, Hero was late summer 2018 and Banjo was first heard late October 2018. If the 5th rep was Capcom, there's definitely a significant time gap of roughly seven months, ironically first being heard in a near time frame from when "Season 2" was first being heard. That said, it provides an argument for Capcom being post pass and, based on the time frame it was first heard, probably futher down the line leading to the next part...

-The Mii costume approach-

So, this is where we move to the center of the arena. With Capcom being heard "late", it makes an argument that it would be later. Like I've said before, various strands of evidence already point to future DLC (5 included) having reps from Square, Namco, and Capcom. Compared to the other two, Capcom was heard significantly later, also suggested that it too will come later. Going back to the Mii costumes, the initial plan seems to point at that each pass was to come with at least two MIi costumes from Smash 4. It's been walked down to death but the Geno Mii and the Chocobo hat would have fit Hero's pass like a glove and the same with Heihachi with Terry. With three Namco, four Capcom, and one Square Mii costume (plus a hat) currently MIA, which would be the most practical to knock out in one pass? Four Capcom in one pass would mean that the hypothetical Capcom character would have equal footing to another series, with two being Megaman and two being Monster Hunter. Kind of strange. Banjo was the only exception to this because he had no RARE or Microsoft costumes at all but perhaps was originally intended to have more of Namco's or Capcom's, if we make the argument that the original idea was to bring back all the Smash 4 costumes with DLC. This is somewhat supported by how San's was supposed a fairly late decision and possibly beat out someone else. Let's take this even further...

What happens if we were to promote two of these eight? Gil goes with either Lloyd or Heihachi and Chocobo goes with Geno. Fairly simple, leaving four Capcom that could easily be split among the two for the sake of completion and still follow the "rule" that no more than two full Smash 4 Mii costumes from the same company come back with each character. Neat and tidy, seemingly suggested by the original layout of the Fighter Pass that probably no more than 3 Smash 4 Mii costumes were intended per pass and, even then, probably still following the "rule" of no more than two per company per pass. Of course, another simple division from all of this is that two of these four could simply come with a Capcom character in the future. Oh la la! Which company currently has the two costume default already set up no mater the default? Hint, it's not Square...

-Examining the Possibility of Capcom at E3-

So, dancing down this road. Namco can take care of it itself and sticking two Capom Mii costumes with the ~mysterious~ Square character is simple so now we just have two Capcom costumes floating in the void. What's a more natural place to stick them then with a future Capcom character? Again, based on when we heard about a hypothetical rep, it suggests E3 or later if they even happen at all. Why also possibly later? Because, very recently, the Capcom name that we had been hearing since the summer was accused of being leakbait! Scandal! The keyword, however, is "accused" and, with no hard evidence yet, it merely casts doubt than entire damnation. Why is this significant? Because "leakbait" implies that it's information being used to purposely misdirect to cover up real information. The most famous example in the Smash fandom right now is how Steve was leakbait to protect the whereabouts of Banjo. If Capcom really is putting out leakbait with another character, who are they trying to cover up? From here, I suggest that the four Capcom franchises that have the most realistic chances in the future are: Monster Hunter, Phoenix Wright, Resident Evil, and Devil May Cry. Not a huge jump in logic because these are the four biggest franchises in the company not yet with a playable rep. Now, in my personal opinion, it's not Monster Hunter mainly because of all the content it got in the base game with music and even a boss. In my opinion, the Mii costumes are highly likely to return (probably with the hypothetical Capcom rep) but there would be little doubt of that regardless. So that then leaves the remaining three and begs the question, which is leakbait and which is real? Mystery upon mysteries. I only know the accused but they could be "innocent" or... they could all be bull****! Fun times!

Hope you all enjoyed this ramble on the whole Capcom topic. As always, this is merely my own speculation and I could be violently, unforgivably wrong on all of it but perhaps it's something to consider none-the-less.

The puzzle of who Sakurai would thank is still perplexing me. I haven’t found any other series that he’s talked about as inspiration, so my only thought is thanking Bandai Namco for helping make the game, and that comes down to Lloyd, Heihachi, or like an old arcade character or something (Dig Duuuuug). I mean I’d love Siegfried or Nightmare but I don’t see Soul Calibur getting repped over Tekken

 

[Looma]

Okay, so, Capcom. Kind of a weird situation. As a basic premise, I showed off the Power of Six Theory here because one of the strongest things in its favor was that it matched up with our intel with one of the biggest takeaways that there was a high chance of another Namco, Square, and Capcom character coming eventually. From here, let's go into some focus points:

-The Fighter's Pass was initially final.-

An important thing to keep in mind is from various accounts including Sakurai that from roughly Spring 2018 to roughly Summer 2019, that the Fighter's Pass was going to be it. 5 characters. Done. Sakurai goes to Aruba for a few months. Why does this play against Capcom?

-All the characters in the pass have been the first new company additions for the game.

-Capcom added Ken in the base roster.

This provides strong evidence that the Fighter's Pass was also meant to end on a "new" company to Ultimate, even if the company was from a previous game.

On the topic of finality, I've highlighted this before but I'll go over it again. This is more or less the premise of my "Thank You" theory:

Joker- Persona inspired Sakurai in recent years.
Hero- DQ inspired Sakurai virtually all his career.
Banjo- A thank you to the fans, going the extra mile to get a literal competitor's character.
Terry- SNK got Sakurai into fighting games in the first place so, without it, Smash probably wouldn't exist.
???- More than likely another character from a company or franchise that has a decent amount of signifance to Sakurai.

Capcom really doesn't fit the bill here, especially when you consider the previous points.

Curious, do you think Travis Touchdown can technically wiggle into a theoretical "Thank You" character position? IIRC Suda51 lent a good chunk of his staff to Sakurai during Brawl's development and saved the game from another delay, as well as being a close friend to Sakurai in general. Grasshopper Manufacture would also be a new company introduced to Ultimate.

 

[FalconFire93]

A tad late on the 3x3, but here's my most wanted characters, my taste in games keeps changing with each one that I play and I end up rotating them around.

Spoiler: Smash Ultimate 3X3

 

[Malo Mart]

Okay, so, Capcom. Kind of a weird situation. As a basic premise, I showed off the Power of Six Theory here because one of the strongest things in its favor was that it matched up with our intel with one of the biggest takeaways that there was a high chance of another Namco, Square, and Capcom character coming eventually. From here, let's go into some focus points:

-The Fighter's Pass was initially final.-

An important thing to keep in mind is from various accounts including Sakurai that from roughly Spring 2018 to roughly Summer 2019, that the Fighter's Pass was going to be it. 5 characters. Done. Sakurai goes to Aruba for a few months. Why does this play against Capcom?

-All the characters in the pass have been the first new company additions for the game.

-Capcom added Ken in the base roster.

This provides strong evidence that the Fighter's Pass was also meant to end on a "new" company to Ultimate, even if the company was from a previous game.

On the topic of finality, I've highlighted this before but I'll go over it again. This is more or less the premise of my "Thank You" theory:

Joker- Persona inspired Sakurai in recent years.
Hero- DQ inspired Sakurai virtually all his career.
Banjo- A thank you to the fans, going the extra mile to get a literal competitor's character.
Terry- SNK got Sakurai into fighting games in the first place so, without it, Smash probably wouldn't exist.
???- More than likely another character from a company or franchise that has a decent amount of signifance to Sakurai.

Capcom really doesn't fit the bill here, especially when you consider the previous points.

-Capcom in Insider Talks-

It might come as a surprise to people that Capcom is actually a fairly new addition to insider talks. Even more shocking, it's actually the third youngest with Crash being the youngest. What does this mean? Of the 10 or so characters that we've heard since last September that haven't been hard deconfirmed yet, a hypothetical Capcom rep is ranked 8th overall. For frame of reference, the first rumblings of Crash were late spring 2019. What does this mean? It creates an interesting situation. As we all know, the Fighter's Pass was finalized in early November 2018. For further reference, the 1-7 (which includes Geno and Ryu) were all first heard in 2018. For even further reference, Hero was late summer 2018 and Banjo was first heard late October 2018. If the 5th rep was Capcom, there's definitely a significant time gap of roughly seven months, ironically first being heard in a near time frame from when "Season 2" was first being heard. That said, it provides an argument for Capcom being post pass and, based on the time frame it was first heard, probably futher down the line leading to the next part...

-The Mii costume approach-

So, this is where we move to the center of the arena. With Capcom being heard "late", it makes an argument that it would be later. Like I've said before, various strands of evidence already point to future DLC (5 included) having reps from Square, Namco, and Capcom. Compared to the other two, Capcom was heard significantly later, also suggested that it too will come later. Going back to the Mii costumes, the initial plan seems to point at that each pass was to come with at least two MIi costumes from Smash 4. It's been walked down to death but the Geno Mii and the Chocobo hat would have fit Hero's pass like a glove and the same with Heihachi with Terry. With three Namco, four Capcom, and one Square Mii costume (plus a hat) currently MIA, which would be the most practical to knock out in one pass? Four Capcom in one pass would mean that the hypothetical Capcom character would have equal footing to another series, with two being Megaman and two being Monster Hunter. Kind of strange. Banjo was the only exception to this because he had no RARE or Microsoft costumes at all but perhaps was originally intended to have more of Namco's or Capcom's, if we make the argument that the original idea was to bring back all the Smash 4 costumes with DLC. This is somewhat supported by how San's was supposed a fairly late decision and possibly beat out someone else. Let's take this even further...

What happens if we were to promote two of these eight? Gil goes with either Lloyd or Heihachi and Chocobo goes with Geno. Fairly simple, leaving four Capcom that could easily be split among the two for the sake of completion and still follow the "rule" that no more than two full Smash 4 Mii costumes from the same company come back with each character. Neat and tidy, seemingly suggested by the original layout of the Fighter Pass that probably no more than 3 Smash 4 Mii costumes were intended per pass and, even then, probably still following the "rule" of no more than two per company per pass. Of course, another simple division from all of this is that two of these four could simply come with a Capcom character in the future. Oh la la! Which company currently has the two costume default already set up no mater the default? Hint, it's not Square...

-Examining the Possibility of Capcom at E3-

So, dancing down this road. Namco can take care of it itself and sticking two Capom Mii costumes with the ~mysterious~ Square character is simple so now we just have two Capcom costumes floating in the void. What's a more natural place to stick them then with a future Capcom character? Again, based on when we heard about a hypothetical rep, it suggests E3 or later if they even happen at all. Why also possibly later? Because, very recently, the Capcom name that we had been hearing since the summer was accused of being leakbait! Scandal! The keyword, however, is "accused" and, with no hard evidence yet, it merely casts doubt than entire damnation. Why is this significant? Because "leakbait" implies that it's information being used to purposely misdirect to cover up real information. The most famous example in the Smash fandom right now is how Steve was leakbait to protect the whereabouts of Banjo. If Capcom really is putting out leakbait with another character, who are they trying to cover up? From here, I suggest that the four Capcom franchises that have the most realistic chances in the future are: Monster Hunter, Phoenix Wright, Resident Evil, and Devil May Cry. Not a huge jump in logic because these are the four biggest franchises in the company not yet with a playable rep. Now, in my personal opinion, it's not Monster Hunter mainly because of all the content it got in the base game with music and even a boss. In my opinion, the Mii costumes are highly likely to return (probably with the hypothetical Capcom rep) but there would be little doubt of that regardless. So that then leaves the remaining three and begs the question, which is leakbait and which is real? Mystery upon mysteries. I only know the accused but they could be "innocent" or... they could all be bull****! Fun times!

Hope you all enjoyed this ramble on the whole Capcom topic. As always, this is merely my own speculation and I could be violently, unforgivably wrong on all of it but perhaps it's something to consider none-the-less.

So the plot thickens... I was pretty confident Capcom had a shot for the last character, but you make an excellent case against it, as to be expected. Now we'll all collectively scratch our heads on who else could fit the bill as a "thank you pick" by Sakurai, haha.

Not gonna lie, the fact that heavily discussed frontrunners for fighter #5 like a Capcom rep, Crash. Doomguy, Hayabusa and much as I hate to admit it, even our boy Geno himself are either being shot down or are just beginning to be seen as unlikely by us on second thought is actually kind of refreshing for once. Makes me believe more and more that we might be in for a total unforeseen surprise to round out the Pass, something we haven't had in quite a while as far as Smash reveals go.

 

[Griselda]

I think I wanna expand even further on the Doomguy/Geno/Shadow thing. Like the Egg Carrier is their permanent base and Spirit!Eggman acts as mission control. Maybe he's possessing an Egg Robo and is actually at the helm? Getting him his body back would be a decent goal, since presumably they did the same for Geno (or at least the doll he's inhabiting). ..Maybe Geno has even (reluctantly) taught Eggman how to use wish energy and using that they modified the Egg Carrier to take them where they need to go in the World of Light, since it was more or less just an ordinary airship, after all.

 

[Fatmanonice]

For 5, I feel like my theory is right or it's going to be someone that's not been heard by insiders like Joker. Interesting thing to note about Joker though is that the decision to actually have the character be at the VGAs and possibly be even #1 wasn't decided until October 2018. This potentially explains why Joker was able to slip under the radar. What's interesting about this is that it suggests that Vergeben's intel of Hero being first was once correct but, for some unexplained reason, was pushed back, further supported by how "Brave" was already in the game's code by the VGAs. Jinkies.

 

[OffBi]

For 5, I feel like my theory is right or it's going to be someone that's not been heard by insiders like Joker. Interesting thing to note about Joker though is that the decision to actually have the character be at the VGAs and possibly be even #1 wasn't decided until October 2018. This potentially explains why Joker was able to slip under the radar. What's interesting about this is that it suggests that Vergeben's intel of Hero being first was once correct but, for some unexplained reason, was pushed back, further supported by how "Brave" was already in the game's code by the VGAs. Jinkies.

So is it Travis touchdown?

 

[Vector Victor]

A thank you to a company. Well, thanking Namco for 4 and Ulitmate would make sense, similarly how event organizers are thank at the end of a ceremony ('And we wouldn't have this successful banquet if it wasn't for the hard working people here.') ,ESPECIALLY since the original timeline had character 5 be the absolute last. Also, Pacman has so few spirits in the game, with only Cloud as the obvious worse (even ROB has more spirits than Cloud!). It felt weird that for a company to help develop Smash would have such small content.

I think its Namco, maybe also Bandai. I think one possible hint to character 5 was that it would be a trolling character but in a GOOD way. Having Pokemon's mon competition with Digimon in the same game could be seen as a troll

 

[Franco Geno]

We´re getting the Goose as a thank you from House House to Nintendo for letting them release their game on the Switch first

 

[Deleted member]

Damn, I forgot about Digimon! We're all thinking Lloyd or Heihachi or KOS-MOS, but what if it's Agumon?
Only problem I can see with that is.. well, Pokemon. Can't imagine they'd be too thrilled with having their direct competitor there in Smash.

 

[xpnc]

Damn, I forgot about Digimon! We're all thinking Lloyd or Heihachi or KOS-MOS, but what if it's Agumon?
Only problem I can see with that is.. well, Pokemon. Can't imagine they'd be too thrilled with having their direct competitor there in Smash.

Digimon hasn't been a direct competitor to Pokemon for probably 15 years. Completely different niches at this point. Not to mention Mario and Sonic were far more competitive, explicitly so

 

[Spatulo]

Curious, do you think Travis Touchdown can technically wiggle into a theoretical "Thank You" character position? IIRC Suda51 lent a good chunk of his staff to Sakurai during Brawl's development and saved the game from another delay, as well as being a close friend to Sakurai in general. Grasshopper Manufacture would also be a new company introduced to Ultimate.

Every time I think I’ve figured it out.
Every time I’m like “I’ve narrowed it down, it’s just Namco. Nobody else.”

I’m reminded of Travis Touchdown.

Travis Strikes Again
No More Heroes 3

I honestly think it might be Travis Touchdown.

 

[MissingGlitch]

A character that isn't talked about would really be the best case scenario for me. It's not giving me time to Fester how much I don't want a certain character like Dante and Lloyd.

 

[Plank08]

Why is everyone saying Gordon’s not in smash? He’s right here

 

[ForsakenM]

A character that isn't talked about would really be the best case scenario for me. It's not giving me time to Fester how much I don't want a certain character like Dante and Lloyd.

But both Dante and Lloyd would be amazing characters.

What's the beef here?

 

[Fatmanonice]

What people think Sabi's Private Discord is like on most days:

Spoiler: The Shadow Cult

How it actually is:

Spoiler: Too Horrible for Words

 

[MissingGlitch]

But both Dante and Lloyd would be amazing characters.

What's the beef here?

Simple, I don't care for them as characters and have no interest in their play style. And of course a different Capcom character getting in means lowered chances for Wright.

And when people start acting like those two are the only acceptable choices for fighter #5 that makes me resent the characters. Petty as that might be.

 

[Franco Geno]

What people think Sabi's Private Discord is like on most days:

Spoiler: The Shadow Cult

View attachment 248077

How it actually is:

Spoiler: Too Horrible for Words

When you join Sabi´s private discord someone with a picture of Hugh Neutron sends you a message saying "Welcome to the Shadow Realm, Jimbo."

 

[Deleted member]

It feels rude to essentially ignore an entire, well thought out post to get hung up on one thing, but aside from who the "leakbait" Capcom character is, I have no gripes with the idea Capcom isn't the final Fighter. Barring another Mega Man character (I laugh when I think about EricTheGamerman saying Elec Man was the only other "reusable" Capcom asset from 4, because I unironically would welcome Elec Man with open arms), I don't want any more Capcom representation in Smash. But this one thing, this tiny detail, I always get hung up on:

-The Fighter's Pass was initially final.-

An important thing to keep in mind is from various accounts including Sakurai that from roughly Spring 2018 to roughly Summer 2019, that the Fighter's Pass was going to be it. 5 characters. Done. Sakurai goes to Aruba for a few months. Why does this play against Capcom?

I need to preface this by saying that I'm a pretty cynical guy. I can have low points that are really really low. I've made some posts in this thread, in my earlier days of being here, that illustrate that fact.

That said... I have such a hard time believing it. Smash feels like it was very much the Sakurai and Iwata power hour, and I've told a lot of people that there's a real possibility that now that Iwata's gone, there won't be a real driving force to make another Smash title. To know that Ultimate was one of Iwata's final requests, and to know that there's a huge chance Sakurai seriously won't be making another - that is to say, to know that in Ultimate, we might be looking at the end of a two decade long crossover franchise... That's a big pill to swallow.

So, if Geno really isn't the final fighter in this pass, if there really was no plan at the time of the game's launch to make another round of DLC that we're still just hoping includes Geno, that speaks not only to a near criminal level of disconnect from the fans (which I find extra hard to believe since Banjo and Kazooie are now in this game), but either calls Sakurai out as a liar when he says he wanted Geno and thought he'd be a great fit, or it undoes the things he's said in the past about not trying to play with people's expectations. Like, you can't convince me that after two games of fans showing complete disdain for characters being in assist trophies when they have absolutely realizable movesets, the kind of outcry that got Little Mac and clones like Dark Samus and even absolute nobodies like Isabelle to be playable, The same man that probably had to fight tooth and nail to get Solid Snake to come back in the base roster, and maybe even Cloud, and who really brought up to the bigwigs at Nintendo that he thinks what they need to do is go to one of their biggest competitors in the industry and get the star of a 20 year old Mario 64 knockoff, this man didn't even try to get Geno to be more than a Mii costume and a PNG I cannot come to terms with that idea.

It adds insult to injury to think that Nintendo knew that they didn't have anywhere near the level of star power in the game to match the Grinch Leak, and desperately tried to play it down (horrendously ineffectually), but still decided that ending off the November 1 direct with Piranha Plant was a good idea, and didn't immediately greenlight a second batch of DLC or a bonus character or something to offset the disappointment, knowing full well that aside from Banjo, not a single soul on this earth seriously requested even one of the DLC fighters they had planned.

Again, I just can't accept this as a reality. I don't want to believe that we were really going to be left hanging at the end of all of this, on a paltry 5 extra characters, had it not been for the almighty dollar coming in and giving us salvation in the form of DLC round 2. It doesn't speak well of whoever #5 could possibly be and aside from that lingering hope that they learned their lesson (something that is very hard to believe with a company like Nintendo), it doesn't even really speak well of the second DLC wave.

To summarize, it's really disheartening to believe that my endless cynicism was well founded.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

Ya know, when Fatmanonice first purposed his theory on Fighter #5 being a "thank you" of some kind, while Namco was what my mind eventually settled on, my very first thought was SUDA51. While Suda has shot down Travis being Smash DLC multiple times this year, he also strikes me as the guy to then go "...oops, did I say Travis wasn't DLC? I lied lol". NDAs are weird, and what someone can or cannot say when under one may vary from agreement to agreement (or I could be talking completely out of my rear on this one).

I don't entirely expect Travis to be #5, but I would not be surprised if he was. Let's not forget that Nintendo, the ones overseeing the DLC selection, invited Suda to be a guest at the 2017 Switch conference where he could announce the return of Travis Touchdown, and then featured NMH3 in their 2019 E3 presentation. It definitely seems as though Nintendo has their eyes on Suda and the NMH franchise.

 

[Spatulo]

Ya know, when Fatmanonice first purposed his theory on Fighter #5 being a "thank you" of some kind, while Namco was what my mind eventually settled on, my very first thought was SUDA51. While Suda has shot down Travis being Smash DLC multiple times this year, he also strikes me as the guy to then go "...oops, did I say Travis wasn't DLC? I lied lol". NDAs are weird, and what someone can or cannot say when under one may vary from agreement to agreement (or I could be talking completely out of my rear on this one).

I don't entirely expect Travis to be #5, but I would not be surprised if he was. Let's not forget that Nintendo, the ones overseeing the DLC selection, invited Suda to be a guest at the 2017 Switch conference where he could announce the return of Travis Touchdown, and then featured NMH3 in their 2019 E3 presentation. It definitely seems as though Nintendo has their eyes on Suda and the NMH franchise.

Okay but if Travis get in

He HAS to make an anime swordsman joke in his reveal trailer

 

[Rohanx17]

While he has taken fan requests into consideration before (sonic,megaman,Ridley, krool, banjo) the smash roster has always been sakurai's vision and entirely bent to personal desires. That's how we got mother as early as 64, fire emblem as early as melee, shulk when xenoblade was just a one-off wii title that barely scrapped 1 mil, ect. I spoke my piece on the matter when this all broke loose awhile back so I won't dive too deep but we really should have known better when 3/4 of the paid dlc was sakurai's personal childhood heroes and inspirations. Maybe sakurai was just spining pr that fateful day or maybe extenuating circumstances really just kept getting in the way. Even if geno makes this time were probably never going to know.

I just hope that when sakurai decides to throw in the towel( which I personally have been suspecting will be after this game ends) that Nintendo doesn't get cold feet and keeps the series going. Sakurai is not some magic wizard and smash is perfectly capable of existing without him as even just the fan projects show. It won't be the same but like Kirby before it might have the opportunity to do things we never could before. (Functional online pls?)

 

[amazonevan19]

Idk about you, but to me, if we get another humanoid character for 5, Banjo is really going to stick out like a sore thumb

Makes me wonder if they cared about what the FP would look like from an optical standpoint, or if they just went ham with no regard to the possibility of 4 humans and one bear.

 

[Franco Geno]

Is there something wrong with Nintendo that they keep making requested characters such as Isaac, Shadow and etc not playable?

 

[Fatmanonice]

@Serenade01 It's complicated. I can relate to this view but I think extra DLC was always in the cards but Nintendo wanted to make sure that 1. the game sold well and 2. DLC sold well before pulling the trigger. If anything, it was probably a "impress the stockholders" thing and Nintendo waited until there was solid financial evidence to warrant "ongoing investment." That said, I think the Fighter's Pass being "The End" was always the worst case scenario and was planned out accordingly.

 

[Griselda]

Is there something wrong with Nintendo that they keep making requested characters such as Isaac, Shadow and etc not playable?

They probably weren't even aware of the requests?

 

[Spatulo]

Is there something wrong with Nintendo that they keep making requested characters such as Isaac, Shadow and etc not playable?

Bruh, they gave us Ridley, King K Rool, Simon Belmont, Chrom, Dark Samus, and Banjo. They had to stop somewhere and still wanted as many fan requested characters in the game as possible even if they weren’t all playable, and likely weren’t thinking about the long game in terms of adding characters later.

 

[Rohanx17]

I have to agree with fatman here. As someone that has been very vocal about the wol slots I think that while the project plan was designed so that the pass could be the end I think the possibility was always there given corperate is the one really calling the shots. The idea that it's fanservice from here on out feels a little too good to be true tbh, but I guess it does make sense if you see it as sakurai frontloading all of his picks for the slots that have already been confirmed and letting any extra that come his way go where they will. I just hope that "one speculated assist" fatman has brought up a few times is actually able to make it through eventually, even if a season 2 slot isn't possible.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

We're talking bamco reps again; yet people are still overlooking a possibility; A Dark Souls rep.

 

[Organization XIII]

They probably weren't even aware of the requests?

Nah man not possible especially after the ballot and things like the Grinch leak. While I can't speak for every fanbase, Isaac and Golden Sun went from a series they felt fine with cutting the AT for whatever reason, to being 1 of 2 ATs returned from Brawl and updated at that, to the second largest amount of spirits for any series not on the roster, a Mii costume, one of the strongest spirits, and a very paltry amount of tracks but no losses in music. The amount it gained shows they are aware of the demand for him for sure. Why not playable is a different beast, probably time as most of what we got in terms of newcomers, weren't fan requests or they were easy to make echoes. If it had been a normal Smash then we likely would have seen Isaac make it at least. Possibly some of the others as well. Sadly the roster is always a balancing act and in this case in particular the load of vets really shortened the amount of newcomers possible. Not unexpected just something that has to be understood.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

It feels rude to essentially ignore an entire, well thought out post to get hung up on one thing, but aside from who the "leakbait" Capcom character is, I have no gripes with the idea Capcom isn't the final Fighter. Barring another Mega Man character (I laugh when I think about EricTheGamerman saying Elec Man was the only other "reusable" Capcom asset from 4, because I unironically would welcome Elec Man with open arms), I don't want any more Capcom representation in Smash. But this one thing, this tiny detail, I always get hung up on:

I need to preface this by saying that I'm a pretty cynical guy. I can have low points that are really really low. I've made some posts in this thread, in my earlier days of being here, that illustrate that fact.

That said... I have such a hard time believing it. Smash feels like it was very much the Sakurai and Iwata power hour, and I've told a lot of people that there's a real possibility that now that Iwata's gone, there won't be a real driving force to make another Smash title. To know that Ultimate was one of Iwata's final requests, and to know that there's a huge chance Sakurai seriously won't be making another - that is to say, to know that in Ultimate, we might be looking at the end of a two decade long crossover franchise... That's a big pill to swallow.

So, if Geno really isn't the final fighter in this pass, if there really was no plan at the time of the game's launch to make another round of DLC that we're still just hoping includes Geno, that speaks not only to a near criminal level of disconnect from the fans (which I find extra hard to believe since Banjo and Kazooie are now in this game), but either calls Sakurai out as a liar when he says he wanted Geno and thought he'd be a great fit, or it undoes the things he's said in the past about not trying to play with people's expectations. Like, you can't convince me that after two games of fans showing complete disdain for characters being in assist trophies when they have absolutely realizable movesets, the kind of outcry that got Little Mac and clones like Dark Samus and even absolute nobodies like Isabelle to be playable, The same man that probably had to fight tooth and nail to get Solid Snake to come back in the base roster, and maybe even Cloud, and who really brought up to the bigwigs at Nintendo that he thinks what they need to do is go to one of their biggest competitors in the industry and get the star of a 20 year old Mario 64 knockoff, this man didn't even try to get Geno to be more than a Mii costume and a PNG I cannot come to terms with that idea.

It adds insult to injury to think that Nintendo knew that they didn't have anywhere near the level of star power in the game to match the Grinch Leak, and desperately tried to play it down (horrendously ineffectually), but still decided that ending off the November 1 direct with Piranha Plant was a good idea, and didn't immediately greenlight a second batch of DLC or a bonus character or something to offset the disappointment, knowing full well that aside from Banjo, not a single soul on this earth seriously requested even one of the DLC fighters they had planned.

Again, I just can't accept this as a reality. I don't want to believe that we were really going to be left hanging at the end of all of this, on a paltry 5 extra characters, had it not been for the almighty dollar coming in and giving us salvation in the form of DLC round 2. It doesn't speak well of whoever #5 could possibly be and aside from that lingering hope that they learned their lesson (something that is very hard to believe with a company like Nintendo), it doesn't even really speak well of the second DLC wave.

To summarize, it's really disheartening to believe that my endless cynicism was well founded.

First experience with capitalism?

Because, seriously, money of course was always going to decide if we got more characters. It's part of running a business that what you're making has to be profitable enough to keep doing it, and if Smash hadn't done well DLC sales wise, there would have been no reason to continue it. They kept the option open from the beginning of course, because, again, that's how you run business, but there's not really a point to committing to a 3 year plan when you can see how the first 1.5 years go with the DLC and decide as you see the data come back. The "lesson" as any company will tell you, is to follow the money.

This fan base has to get this through their head, not every character is going to be playable and Sakurai considers all kinds of representation important, not just playability. You can hate that all you want, but it's just how both Sakurai operates and the limits of reality operate. Not every dream comes true, and I get it, we're spoiled as **** from Sakurai's consistent commitment to our dreams and desires, so we think they're all possible. But there's limits to reality and more than just the crazy specific desires of one group of people to consider in a franchise that gets sold to over 10 million like clockwork. Ultimate was on track to give us Ridley, King K. Rool, Snake and all the veterans back, Inkling, Dark Samus, Chrom, and Banjo & Kazooie in 2018. That's almost the entirety of fans' longtime wishes and even new wishes sans Geno and Isaac. Sakurai loves all kinds of games and characters and has spoken to that love many, many times. Geno has his support, but he's one of a ton of characters that also have that same support. If he didn't really have the opportunity to make one happen, oh well, he's got several others and has been granting fan requests like mad anyway. And honestly, of the "big 4" (consisting of Ridley, King K. Rool, Banjo & Kazooie, and Geno), Geno is probably the hardest to get for the least payoff, so I get why he may have been left off in a theoretical "Fighter's Pass only" type world. He just can't do everything, the time and resources just don't exist, so decisions have to be made. And his was clearly, we'll shelve Geno til another day.

And you've got to get over November's Direct last year. I don't think Nintendo really cared that much because they knew they had Banjo & Kazooie coming, and they knew they had done nothing but commit Ultimate to fan demand. They had an entire game with 76 characters and a giant truckload of content to offset the disappointment and a DLC season with a ton of content and freaking Banjo & Kazooie in it coming anyway. That was their backup plan, and it has worked... about as wonderfully as they imagined it would judging by sales and the fact that most people seem to have moved on. The decisions were already made in November, it was too late to change anything and Nintendo is under no obligation to respond to fake leaks in order to satisfy fans' own borderline unreasonable expectations. And again, the sales of the Fighter's Pass also further backup the notion that Nintendo knew what they were doing and knew how much they could weather going into the DLC season for Smash Ultimate.

Also, Isabelle is not a "nobody," she's one of Nintendo's biggest and most marketable characters in years.

It's just not as personal as I think you think it is. Sakurai has to make all kinds of people happy and unhappy with every pick and choice he makes, and not all things can happen the way that every fan wants them to. We're probably going to get Geno in the next round of DLC from the way things look now, so I don't really get why it matters what Nintendo didn't initially have planned. Things were always a changing situation, so it wasn't nearly as "dreadful" as you seem to be framing it.

 

[Franco Geno]

Bruh, they gave us Ridley, King K Rool, Simon Belmont, Chrom, Dark Samus, and Banjo. They had to stop somewhere and still wanted as many fan requested characters in the game as possible even if they weren’t all playable, and likely weren’t thinking about the long game in terms of adding characters later.

I´m glad that we got Banjo, King K Rool and even Ridley but what i´m trying to say is that it feels weird to me that of all the assist trophies and regular trophies that they could choose way back in brawl they made Little Mac playable instead of someone like Isaac

 

[Griselda]

We're talking bamco reps again; yet people are still overlooking a possibility; A Dark Souls rep.

..So what you're saying is that FP5 is Priscilla My Giant Wife.

 

[Organization XIII]

I´m glad that we got Banjo, King K Rool and even Ridley but what i´m trying to say is that it feels weird to me that of all the assist trophies and regular trophies that they could choose way back in brawl they made Little Mac playable instead of someone like Isaac

To be fair, while Isaac support was around pre-Brawl a lot of people were introduced to the series by the ATs inclusion in Brawl. So for Smash4 Isaac became the power house he is today. Little Mac though was pretty popular in the West during Brawl iirc and by the time a new game is announced showing support is already too late since the roster was already decided, so Little Mac was more understandable.

 

[Spatulo]

Also, Isabelle is not a "nobody," she's one of Nintendo's biggest and most marketable characters in years.

I wanna call out and second this because I’m surprised to see people here questioning this. Isabelle was a HUGE Smash request in Japan and I know we sometimes forget about it, but New Leaf sold twelve million copies. For comparison, the entire Metroid franchise has sold seventeen mil. Animal Crossing is one of the big dogs these days (ha) so of course their most popular character would get a rep.

I´m glad that we got Banjo, King K Rool and even Ridley but what i´m trying to say is that it feels weird to me that of all the assist trophies and regular trophies that they could choose way back in brawl they made Little Mac playable instead of someone like Isaac

Probably because Little Mac was also a super requested character since the Brawl days (at least in the west) and he had a recent game that was both successful and AWESOME! No joke, he was one of my top requests in 4.

 

[Franco Geno]

I wanna call out and second this because I’m surprised to see people here questioning this. Isabelle was a HUGE Smash request in Japan and I know we sometimes forget about it, but New Leaf sold twelve million copies. For comparison, the entire Metroid franchise has sold seventeen mil. Animal Crossing is one of the big dogs these days (ha) so of course their most popular character would get a rep.



Probably because Little Mac was also a super requested character since the Brawl days (at least in the west) and he had a recent game that was both successful and AWESOME! No joke, he was one of my top requests in 4.

Well that explains a lot of things, still congrats that you got one of your most wanted characters in the game my friend