Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Rohanx17]

Right after little mac was revealed sakurai wrote a famitsu colomn were he heavily praised punch out arcade as an old favorite of his. I have a hard time believing fan requests are why he managed to make it in.

 

[Inawordyes]

I think if the FP was intended to be it for Ultimate, and it's all "thank you's" to companies, ending with the final "Thank You" being to Namco makes perfect sense since they helped Sakurai make both SM4SH and Ultimate a reality by contributing so much to game development. It doubles as a thank you to the entire team that helped make the game alongside Sakurai, and it would have been like the "end credits" of the game in that sense.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

It is a little disheartening if sakurai thought if the fighters pass was the last hurrah, he didn't see Geno as worth one of the potentially final five characters.

 

[Spatulo]

Well that explains a lot of things, still congrats that you got one of your most wanted characters in the game my friend

Thank you my good Genobro. Smash 4 had a lot of newcomers I wasn’t super into, but Mac, Robin, and Greninja were pretty hype for me (I still wish I got my reaction to Greninja’s reveal on camera cause that trailer got me good).

Right after little mac was revealed sakurai wrote a famitsu colomn were he heavily praised punch out arcade as an old favorite of his. I have a hard time believing fan requests are why he managed to make it in.

Oh yeah, the Punch-Out series has a TON of significant legacy with Nintendo (I highly recommend the Gaming Historian video on it if you’re interested in that sort of thing and you’ve got 45 minutes to spare). The series predates the NES but also had a then-recent Wii game, both of which I’m sure were factors, but I’m sure fan demand contributed as well.

 

[catsforlife1]

It is a little disheartening if sakurai thought if the fighters pass was the last hurrah, he didn't see Geno as worth one of the potentially final five characters.

Well no I would not go that far. Maybe at the time he tried to get geno and hero but square only allowed hero at the time. I do think he at least tried to get geno seeing how we got some spirits. Now that we have extra dlc maybe he decided to try again.

 

[Rohanx17]

I wanna call out and second this because I’m surprised to see people here questioning this. Isabelle was a HUGE Smash request in Japan

I hear this every once in a while but can never find anything that supports it. Do you have any sources by chance?

 

[GenoFlash]

Isabelle didn't need to be a "request" because she's like the third most popular character Nintendo has in Japan.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah I don't know why we're talking about this being the last Smash game as Sakurai said in an interview/one of his columns that as long as there are requests and demand for a new Smash game he'll continue to make them which you could find the source here: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._make_smash_bros_games_if_the_demand_is_there

That's pretty much an open-and-shut case as long as his health is okay and there's demand for another Smash game he'll be there and ready to make it. Also he never once suggested that he forgot about Geno nor that he doesn't like him he may just have had bigger priorities or Nintendo higher-ups said no which I don't think they would anymore.

 

[Spatulo]

I hear this every once in a while but can never find anything that supports it. Do you have any sources by chance?

Well you are in luck, because it just so happens that you already have my source, which is also hearing that on the Internet from other people XD I tried to find a legit citation but searching Isabelle and Smash Bros these days doesn’t give much insight in that regard.

That being said... what GenoFlash said. Isabelle’s super popular and any popular Nintendo character is basically a Smash character request by proxy.

 

[DanganZilla5]

"...as long as there are requests and demand for a new Smash game..."

Sakurai will be working until he drops dead in that case.

 

[Droodle]

It feels rude to essentially ignore an entire, well thought out post to get hung up on one thing, but aside from who the "leakbait" Capcom character is, I have no gripes with the idea Capcom isn't the final Fighter. Barring another Mega Man character (I laugh when I think about @EricTheGamerman saying Elec Man was the only other "reusable" Capcom asset from 4, because I unironically would welcome Elec Man with open arms), I don't want any more Capcom representation in Smash. But this one thing, this tiny detail, I always get hung up on:



I need to preface this by saying that I'm a pretty cynical guy. I can have low points that are really really low. I've made some posts in this thread, in my earlier days of being here, that illustrate that fact.

That said... I have such a hard time believing it. Smash feels like it was very much the Sakurai and Iwata power hour, and I've told a lot of people that there's a real possibility that now that Iwata's gone, there won't be a real driving force to make another Smash title. To know that Ultimate was one of Iwata's final requests, and to know that there's a huge chance Sakurai seriously won't be making another - that is to say, to know that in Ultimate, we might be looking at the end of a two decade long crossover franchise... That's a big pill to swallow.

So, if Geno really isn't the final fighter in this pass, if there really was no plan at the time of the game's launch to make another round of DLC that we're still just hoping includes Geno, that speaks not only to a near criminal level of disconnect from the fans (which I find extra hard to believe since Banjo and Kazooie are now in this game), but either calls Sakurai out as a liar when he says he wanted Geno and thought he'd be a great fit, or it undoes the things he's said in the past about not trying to play with people's expectations. Like, you can't convince me that after two games of fans showing complete disdain for characters being in assist trophies when they have absolutely realizable movesets, the kind of outcry that got Little Mac and clones like Dark Samus and even absolute nobodies like Isabelle to be playable, The same man that probably had to fight tooth and nail to get Solid Snake to come back in the base roster, and maybe even Cloud, and who really brought up to the bigwigs at Nintendo that he thinks what they need to do is go to one of their biggest competitors in the industry and get the star of a 20 year old Mario 64 knockoff, this man didn't even try to get Geno to be more than a Mii costume and a PNG I cannot come to terms with that idea.

It adds insult to injury to think that Nintendo knew that they didn't have anywhere near the level of star power in the game to match the Grinch Leak, and desperately tried to play it down (horrendously ineffectually), but still decided that ending off the November 1 direct with Piranha Plant was a good idea, and didn't immediately greenlight a second batch of DLC or a bonus character or something to offset the disappointment, knowing full well that aside from Banjo, not a single soul on this earth seriously requested even one of the DLC fighters they had planned.

Again, I just can't accept this as a reality. I don't want to believe that we were really going to be left hanging at the end of all of this, on a paltry 5 extra characters, had it not been for the almighty dollar coming in and giving us salvation in the form of DLC round 2. It doesn't speak well of whoever #5 could possibly be and aside from that lingering hope that they learned their lesson (something that is very hard to believe with a company like Nintendo), it doesn't even really speak well of the second DLC wave.

To summarize, it's really disheartening to believe that my endless cynicism was well founded.

I feel like this is a overly dramatic way of looking at things. The Fighter Pass and even Smash Ultimate in general weren't sold on that "all of the fan-favorites will now be playable characters". Yes Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo Kazooie all got in; but Isaac didn't, and even Isaac was a more popular request then Geno and maybe even Banjo until he was eventually confirmed as an AT, and he even had less hurdles to get in to boot!

So far the only long-requested fan-demand that has gotten in with DLC is Banjo-Kazooie (though Lloyd's chances are looking pretty good). Sakurai also never promised that DLC will only consist of fan-favorite characters, and his methodology proves that he cares about representing video game history (particularly Japanese/Nintendo game history) more so then even fan-favorite characters, say what you will about that; but it's been proven that it works, every DLC character got a huge spotlight on them/their series when they got added to Smash.

Yes, Little Mac/Dark Samus/Isabelle got in due to fan support, but you have to remember that they are all first party characters and with the exception of Little Mac all of them still have hugely active franchises, they are all easier to get in due to that. On top of that, Isabelle isn't a "nobody", she's a major character from the most recent and bestselling game in a major Nintendo IP. And even then, both Isabelle and Dark Samus are clones/semi-clones; not newcomers like Geno would probably be.

On top of this the Grinch leak wasn't Nintendo's fault, most insiders were already stating that the leak was fake but no one believed them. Outside of officially outright deconfirming the leak (which Nintendo has never done for anything ever), there isn't much else they could have done once the Grinch leak got popular. And Piranha Plant is a character that follows the tradition of being a WTF character that no one saw coming, only this time Sakurai didn't feel like it was ready to be added in base and so he saved it for DLC.

Also your arguments about Sakurai possibly being a liar or playing with expectations, again seems a little overly dramatic. Yes, Sakurai stated he thought of Geno in Brawl but we don't know how much he wanted him in; for all we know Geno might've just been a name on a sheet of paper alongside 30 other names of characters Sakurai thought would be cool to add in Smash. And in regards to the playing with expectations bit, Sakurai has never really played with expectations outside of references that the Smash fanbase takes a bit too seriously at points. He may have thought that the Geno icon and the SMRPG spirits may have been good enough representations of the character/SMRPG, maybe he meant to use spirits in a way to deconfirm fighters but people never really got the idea.

I can assure you there are at least a couple dozen characters that Sakurai/Nintendo has in mind at any point in time, whether they decide to pick them is another story. For example, I'm pretty sure Sakurai knows how demanded characters like Geno/Sora/Isaac are; but Sakurai may think it's better to include characters like Hero/Terry/Joker/Banjo-Kazooie for another reason. If he chooses the latter, it doesn't mean that he hates the former.

TL;DR: Sakurai never created false expectations for certain characters getting in, at least for DLC. All we were given was that 5 new characters will join the roster. If Geno gets in, great! However, you should know that he is by no means guaranteed a spot just because of fan demand. There are so many characters that people want (even if they may not be vocal about it), that putting all the highly requested ones in will be impossible. If Geno doesn't get in, it's not the end of the world.

 

[Organization XIII]

The question should never be will Sakurai grant requests the question should be how many, since he doesn't ever just focus on what we ask for. Each game always has it's own balance between who we wanted to see and who Sakurai wanted to do.

 

[wynn728]

It is a little disheartening if sakurai thought if the fighters pass was the last hurrah, he didn't see Geno as worth one of the potentially final five characters.

Makes you think oh what Geno is really worth to Sakurai when he put more effort into making Piranha Plant instead of trying to get Geno.

 

[catsforlife1]

Makes you think oh what Geno is really worth to Sakurai when he put more effort into making Piranha Plant instead of trying to get Geno.

wynn dont even F##king start with this s##t

 

[Organization XIII]

Makes you think oh what Geno is really worth to Sakurai when he put more effort into making Piranha Plant instead of trying to get Geno.

Dude as someone who hates the Plant I think you take his inclusion way too personally. It wasn't supposed to be a knock against other characters, it was just meant as a fun mix up instead of the usual Smash additions. It was terrible and hopefully never repeated but I highly doubt Sakurai went "Yeah there's literally nothing else good to add so I might as well do a plant"

 

[Deleted member]

Makes you think oh what Geno is really worth to Sakurai when he put more effort into making Piranha Plant instead of trying to get Geno.

Enough. With. Plant. Time and time again you always bring it up every once in a while. Yes, Plant was a priority over Geno. A character that follows the unexpected character trend for the base game ever since Melee. At least Plant was never meant to “steal” Geno’s spot. Having Plant in Smash requires 0 effort compared to Geno who requires negotiation like every third party character. Both Plant and Geno could very well get in.

 

[Droodle]

Dude as someone who hates the Plant I think you take his inclusion way too personally. It wasn't supposed to be a knock against other characters, it was just meant as a fun mix up instead of the usual Smash additions. It was terrible and hopefully never repeated but I highly doubt Sakurai went "Yeah there's literally nothing else good to add so I might as well do a plant"

These "mix-up" characters have been a thing for a while now, or are you forgetting about characters like Game and Watch, ROB, and Duck Hunt. I think this may have been the first time where the character was officially revealed before the game launched, but to be fair since PP was DLC they had to confirm him officially.

It's a tradition since melee, and I expect it to continue.

 

[xpnc]

Isabelle didn't need to be a "request" because she's like the third most popular character Nintendo has in Japan.

I hear this every once in a while but can never find anything that supports it. Do you have any sources by chance?

Don't forget that the ballot had a gender option. It's entirely possible that Isabelle and Daisy did have huge support--from women. They also split the ballot into different regions, so it would not shock me if it went something like:

-Chrom as winner of Males in Japan
-Isabelle as winner of Females in Japan
-Ridley as winner of Males in North America
-Daisy as winner of Females in North America

and so on

 

[Rohanx17]

Well you are in luck, because it just so happens that you already have my source, which is also hearing that on the Internet from other people XD I tried to find a legit citation but searching Isabelle and Smash Bros these days doesn’t give much insight in that regard.

That being said... what GenoFlash said. Isabelle’s super popular and any popular Nintendo character is basically a Smash character request by proxy.

The Kirby series and naturally unlocalized titles have had significantly greater push than in the rest of the world but I don't see that with AC. If anything the clearance table of amiibos, cards, and that weird party game they tried to peddle instead of a real entry lead me to believe it's more likely the 3ds and new leaf were a perfect storm of opportunity then it being Nintendo's breadwinner. I mean when the release for the Wii, a system with over a 100m installbase and the most casual audience Nintendo has ever had, could barely cross 3m in sales forgive me for being a little sceptical of the situation.

 

[Organization XIII]

These "mix-up" characters have been a thing for a while now, or are you forgetting about characters like Game and Watch, ROB, and Duck Hunt. I think this may have been the first time where the character was officially revealed before the game launched, but to be fair since PP was DLC they had to confirm him officially.

It's a tradition since melee, and I expect it to continue.

No I didn't forget, how does that change he was a mix up though? Past games having them doesn't change anything.

 

[Axelocke]

"Hey can we include Geno in Ultimate?" - Sakurai

"Well, we weren't planning on doing anything with him..." - Square

"Is that a yes?" - Sakurai

"Well yes, but actually no. Maybe? Uh." - Square

Square used shrug.
Sakurai was confused!

 

[Fatmanonice]

Guys, let me get this straight... We're getting extra DLC... You have no less than 5 insiders who come into this thread... You have sprawling testimonials that not only are Geno's chances for post pass pretty great but it has a significant chance of happening before E3... And people are mad about a worst case scenario hypothetical that's been obsolete and circumnavigated for almost half a year... Am I getting all that?

People are mad about an alternate universe where miraculously Smash Ultimate sold terribly and where it didn't make over 650 million in less than a year in DLC sales? I understood why people were bent out of shape about the months leading to Hero but... ****... Mii costume's MIA and Geno's literally the only Square character with full model usable assets from Smash 4... Insiders basically tell you Sora's not likely to happen anytime soon because Disney sucks ass at keeping secrets and no one has heard him and no other Square character has really been heard aside from Sephiroth before the VGAs last year for like a week tops... I mean, what's the deal? I'm still writing my massive argument but if people are going to be disgruntled about alternate timelines of all things, why bother?

 

[6eyondthegrave]

Dude as someone who hates the Plant I think you take his inclusion way too personally. It wasn't supposed to be a knock against other characters, it was just meant as a fun mix up instead of the usual Smash additions. It was terrible and hopefully never repeated but I highly doubt Sakurai went "Yeah there's literally nothing else good to add so I might as well do a plant"

yeah i agree, that’s a narrative that the trolls in the internet tried to sell to discredit Geno. Sakurai simply wanted to be creative with the Plant, it has no link to Geno. If Geno was a 1st party character and owned by Nintendo completely, he would have been in smash a long time ago. Square has different priorities (FF and DQ) and Nintendo does as well (to build stronger bridges with 3rd party companies and pleasing fans at the same time). I’m just hoping that no other square character blocks Geno’s chances this time around.

 

[Franco Geno]

wynn dont even F##king start with this s##t

I´m so sorry but i couldn't help but make a meme about this

 

[ForsakenM]

Guys, let me get this straight... We're getting extra DLC... You have no less than 5 insiders who come into this thread... You have sprawling testimonials that not only are Geno's chances for post pass pretty great but it has a significant chance of happening before E3... And people are mad about a worst case scenario hypothetical that's been obsolete and circumnavigated for almost half a year... Am I getting all that?

People are mad about an alternate universe where miraculously Smash Ultimate sold terribly and where it didn't make over 650 million in less than a year in DLC sales? I understood why people were bent out of shape about the months leading to Hero but... ****... Mii costume's MIA and Geno's literally the only Square character with full model usable assets from Smash 4... Insiders basically tell you Sora's not likely to happen anytime soon because Disney sucks ass at keeping secrets and no one has heard him and no other Square character has really been heard aside from Sephiroth before the VGAs last year for like a week tops... I mean, what's the deal? I'm still writing my massive argument but if people are going to be disgruntled about alternate timelines of all things, why bother?

Just ignore them, my dude. Some people can't handle the idea that some characters only make sense to come before Geno.

The power of bias makes you think crazy things.

 

[Organization XIII]

I mean, what's the deal?

Because without leaks and news to keep the hysteria at bay the Smash fanbase goes for self harm.

 

[Deleted member]

why bother?

If you don't, I'm forcing you on a weight plan.

 

[catsforlife1]

I´m so sorry but i couldn't help but make a meme about thisView attachment 248101

PERISH

 

[Deleted member]

Guys, let me get this straight... We're getting extra DLC... You have no less than 5 insiders who come into this thread... You have sprawling testimonials that not only are Geno's chances for post pass pretty great but it has a significant chance of happening before E3... And people are mad about a worst case scenario hypothetical that's been obsolete and circumnavigated for almost half a year... Am I getting all that?

People are mad about an alternate universe where miraculously Smash Ultimate sold terribly and where it didn't make over 650 million in less than a year in DLC sales? I understood why people were bent out of shape about the months leading to Hero but... ****... Mii costume's MIA and Geno's literally the only Square character with full model usable assets from Smash 4... Insiders basically tell you Sora's not likely to happen anytime soon because Disney sucks ass at keeping secrets and no one has heard him and no other Square character has really been heard aside from Sephiroth before the VGAs last year for like a week tops... I mean, what's the deal? I'm still writing my massive argument but if people are going to be disgruntled about alternate timelines of all things, why bother?

Please keep doing your argument. I’m not really sure where that hypothetical scenario came from and apparently some people still won’t let go of Plant’s inclusion even though it has nothing to do with Geno’s chances in any way. By the way, what are your thoughts of the chances of 2B and Lara Croft being in Smash?

 

[Datboigeno]

Guys, let me get this straight... We're getting extra DLC... You have no less than 5 insiders who come into this thread... You have sprawling testimonials that not only are Geno's chances for post pass pretty great but it has a significant chance of happening before E3... And people are mad about a worst case scenario hypothetical that's been obsolete and circumnavigated for almost half a year... Am I getting all that?

People are mad about an alternate universe where miraculously Smash Ultimate sold terribly and where it didn't make over 650 million in less than a year in DLC sales? I understood why people were bent out of shape about the months leading to Hero but... ****... Mii costume's MIA and Geno's literally the only Square character with full model usable assets from Smash 4... Insiders basically tell you Sora's not likely to happen anytime soon because Disney sucks ass at keeping secrets and no one has heard him and no other Square character has really been heard aside from Sephiroth before the VGAs last year for like a week tops... I mean, what's the deal? I'm still writing my massive argument but if people are going to be disgruntled about alternate timelines of all things, why bother?

People make a big deal about those on the thread “hyping irresponsibly” but in reality anytime anything slightly positive goes in Geno’s direction there are quite a bit of people who will afterwards latch onto anything they can to be doubtful and negative about things even when it’s a completely neutral situation. I just expect it now and my eyes instinctively glaze over when I scroll past it.

 

[AdamBel731]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/112BNm3SkQln8OpKfSde0E743cALYKqmvyXVKgLi1-P0/edit?usp=drivesdk

Just want to link this here. The is a lengthy document from epicmartin7 of Source Gaming hypothesizing the max number of characters we COULD receive.

papagenos and Fatmanonice is this interesting to you? Fatman, I know you had an idea of how many characters we could get (you thought one more Fighters Pass), so what do you make of this?

 

[Deleted member]

Geno has a chance and I believe it's good. It's not a guarantee and yes maybe he might not come.

But I believe on his chances 50/50.

But I'm hopeful!

 

[MisterMike]

Don't forget that the ballot had a gender option. It's entirely possible that Isabelle and Daisy did have huge support--from women. They also split the ballot into different regions, so it would not shock me if it went something like:

-Chrom as winner of Males in Japan
-Isabelle as winner of Females in Japan
-Ridley as winner of Males in North America
-Daisy as winner of Females in North America

and so on

-King K. Rool as winner of Males in Australia
-Incineroar as winner of Females in Australia

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

Guys, let me get this straight... We're getting extra DLC... You have no less than 5 insiders who come into this thread... You have sprawling testimonials that not only are Geno's chances for post pass pretty great but it has a significant chance of happening before E3... And people are mad about a worst case scenario hypothetical that's been obsolete and circumnavigated for almost half a year... Am I getting all that?

People are mad about an alternate universe where miraculously Smash Ultimate sold terribly and where it didn't make over 650 million in less than a year in DLC sales? I understood why people were bent out of shape about the months leading to Hero but... ****... Mii costume's MIA and Geno's literally the only Square character with full model usable assets from Smash 4... Insiders basically tell you Sora's not likely to happen anytime soon because Disney sucks ass at keeping secrets and no one has heard him and no other Square character has really been heard aside from Sephiroth before the VGAs last year for like a week tops... I mean, what's the deal? I'm still writing my massive argument but if people are going to be disgruntled about alternate timelines of all things, why bother?

I would say angry is a bit of an overstatement, except for maybe wynn. But it is kind of disappointing to hear, not gonna lie.

 

[Spatulo]

I mean, if we’re going to worry about how things went down for Geno in alternative permutations of reality, then let me tell you about the universe where Geno

NEVER EXISTED

 

[link2702]

unrelated to Geno but just gotta vent a tiny bit.....

damnit why does Disney+ only have NG documentaries from the 2000s-now?

I just want to watch some of the older ones from the 90s and 80s but they're virtually impossible to find. Can't buy em on amazon video, can't buy dvd's on NG's website. Can't even find many on VHS anymore as those are getting scarce. I was hoping like hell that when disney+ announced it'd have NG on there, that they'd have some of the older ones up as well.

As of right now that's the main thing holding me back from subscribing. I can watch all my old star wars films on dvd, and I have most of the disney films I could want on either amazon prime video, DVD, or if i REALLY felt like getting them out, VHS. But I don't have any of the classic NG films. And if the ones from the 80s and 90s are proving this hard to track down, what does that say about any from the 70s or older?


*ahem* so uh...back to geno.....

 

[Franco Geno]

I mean, if we’re going to worry about how things went down for Geno in alternative permutations of reality, then let me tell you about the universe where Geno

NEVER EXISTED

A timeline in which Nintendo never collaborated with Square Enix and a world in which people's wishes would never come true because Star Road never existed

 

[AdamBel731]

Makes you think oh what Geno is really worth to Sakurai when he put more effort into making Piranha Plant instead of trying to get Geno.

Did someone pay Piranha Plant and wynn? Is it time for me to put on my Sword & Shield once again and write a huge argument against wynn that basically everyone agrees with (which wynn doesn't see as indicative of anything), and then go back to the status quo until wynn starts beating the bones of the long-dead horse again? Is it time for the tale of AdamBel leading the charge for the thread vs. wynn once again?... nah, catsforlife1 already has is covered it looks like.

Just ignore him guys. He will just keep accusing you of not letting him simply dislike something, even though it is clearly more than that. Yeah, he DOES take Piranha Plant personally, but we can only hope that one day Sakurai puts in his specific character he wants to make him happy.

(Actually, no. Anyone who is gonna be that offended over a plant shouldn't really get that.)

 

[Plank08]

At this point I have no freaking clue who FP5 could possibly be

 

[Franco Geno]

At this point I have no freaking clue who FP5 could possibly be

How likely would Klonoa be?