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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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Grumbo

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Actually, everybody blamed Luke for falling for Lord Vaan's diabolical trick. Every last one of them, without exception. In fact, him taking full responsibility for it is his arc from then on.

I'm curious, would trophies count as assets that could be reused? Because I'm almost certain that there are some trophies that could be used as the basis for a new fighter.
I’m not 3D modeler, but i think trophies wouldn’t have a skeleton and therefore would be harder to repurpose than a mii costume was, but it could still happen. The only trophy I could see happening is Rayman tbh. Then again I could be talking out of my ass lol
Sabi said it wasn’t Doom Slayer because at that time insiders hadn’t heard literally anything about Doom content in Smash before the Mii Costume ordeal. For Ryu and Crash they had an insider actually say it’s not them. Since the number of potential characters had jumped to 4 I theorize Doom Slayer might be one of them now
That’s what I’ve been thinking too. They probably found more info on Doomguy after the Cacomallow leak, even if it was fake
 

AugustusB

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I have a question, it may be a bit ignorant of me. Would people really get in trouble if just the names of the four/five companies got leaked? Is that damnable enough evidence?
If we remember the Seven Squares list and think about what happened, those names would be out to the public in no time. I do believe people got FIRED for those names getting out. So yes, it is pretty damnable, especially when we, the internet, go "OMG Norman Reedus, Sindel, Pacman Jr and Slipknot are the fighters!!! Hyuck hyuck!"

I seem to remember an Insider got in trouble for saying Lloyd was the VGA announcement last year (Ninja something?) Soooo yeah. lets not and be patient.
 
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RetrogamerMax

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It's been a very long time since I've logged in. Not since the days that terminalmontage was posting here lol.

How's everyone been?
I've been doing m'kay, m'kay.

I have a question, it may be a bit ignorant of me. Would people really get in trouble if just the names of the four/five companies got leaked? Is that damnable enough evidence?
Probably just the leaker and their insider source or sources within the companies that would be in deep doo doo. But other people that are hearing stuff from them and ain't leaking anything like Fatmanonice Fatmanonice is safe.

I seem to remember an Insider got in trouble for saying Lloyd was the VGA announcement last year (Ninja something?) Soooo yeah. lets not and be patient.
Wait what? I didn't hear about this.
 
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Sigran101

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I'm a few pages behind, so forgive me if this is an old topic, but wow, lots of shade thrown at sword and shield by people who didn't even play it. I played sword. Want my super hot take?

I had fun.

Does anything else really matter that much? They didn't have all the pokemon, the graphics could have been better yada yada. Play the damn game before you decide it's garbage. I actually had a good time with it, so I dgaf about the "objectively bad" parts. The point of a video game is to have fun, and that's exactly what I got out of it.
 

andree123

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There was a problem fetching the tweet
Sakurai worked on a unknown fighter today in this same video, but that may likely be challenger pack 5.
Are we expecting this to have a leak of Challenger pack 5 in a few days after this?
 
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RetrogamerMax

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So now that more people are accepting that Lloyd might be the Namco rep and FP5 or one of the future DLC characters, Sigran101 Sigran101 would you care to enlighten the crowd about your Mii Sword Fighter theory?
 
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Sigran101

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So now that more people are accepting that Lloyd might be the Namco rep and FP5 or one of the future DLC chaaracters, Sigran101 Sigran101 would you care to enlighten the crowd about your Mii Sword Fighter theory?
Basically just that duck hunt and mii swordfighter started glitching when plant came out, and people speculated that it's because they were being used as a base for a new character. This was part of the reason I and many others were confident in Banjo and Kazooie. Of course that did end up panning out. Most assumed mii was for Erdrick, who was thought to be child form at the time because of the Brave stats datamine. Then we all just kind of forgot about it when Hero came out and was clearly based on Link rather than mii swordfighter. So now I'm thinking mii swordfighter is for Lloyd.
 

ChoccyStar

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184
Just to pass the time and have something to talk about: If you had to make a top 10 list of your favorite video games what would they be?
1. Riviera: The Promised Land
2. Cave Story
3. Maplestory
4. Super Mario RPG
5. League of Legends
6. Touhou 13: Ten Desires
7. Phoenix Wright: Trials and Tribulations
8. Chrono Trigger
9. Final Fantasy XIV
10. Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair

3 to 10 in no particular order. Healthy mix of games I love and games I spent so much time in I feel I must include them.
 

ForsakenM

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I'm a few pages behind, so forgive me if this is an old topic, but wow, lots of shade thrown at sword and shield by people who didn't even play it. I played sword. Want my super hot take?

I had fun.

Does anything else really matter that much? They didn't have all the pokemon, the graphics could have been better yada yada. Play the damn game before you decide it's garbage. I actually had a good time with it, so I dgaf about the "objectively bad" parts. The point of a video game is to have fun, and that's exactly what I got out of it.
So I don't want to dive too hard into this again as I'm only going to be repeating myself and I want to focus on my big positive Geno Bro message, but here it the problem with your statement just like that popular Youtuber who acted all coy about saying he enjoyed Sw/Sh.

It's fine that you enjoyed it, but you can have fun playing Kick The Can or Playing Pretend or climbing a tree. You can have fun with friends and family, and you can enjoy things that are of poor quality. Once again, I love the Puppet Master franchise, but it's a really ****ty C-Horror Movie series. It's really just bad and convoluted and makes no sense as well as not being made all that well from filming aspects...but I love it all the same. However, I acknowledge it's poor quality...but you are dismissing Sw/Sh's poor qualities. The issue here is acting as if Sw/Sh have no issues or that they don't matter because the game is fun just because 'i LoVe PoKeMoN sO i WiLl BuY iT cUz YoU aReN't' issue.

I'm not saying you can't have fun, that's the point of an entertainment product. It's one of the things I disagree with with SpiritOfRuin SpiritOfRuin because they see it as art while I see it as a product being sold for entertainment, and thus they think it can't be objectively judged where as I most certainly believe it can. It's technically both of those things, but I'm not judging it for anything less or more than it's poor quality and the stupid lies GameFreak has made.

Also, I'm not going to play the game, but I have gathered the obvious facts of it's flaws vs it's features and frankly, it doesn't hold up. Like I said, it's at best a 5/10, and average game but could very easily be below average for the lack of effort put into it.

Thus, here is your issue: since you had fun, you think it's unfair for people to judge it harshly, especially if they didn't play the game. But, isn't it unfair of you to tell people to buy a game that they see as not worth their money? By your logic, every person who buys anything should not do any research about the product beforehand and just buy it outright, then decide if it's worth the money they already paid. Newsflash: good consumerism does not work like that. If a restaurant gets bad reviews, people who have never been there skip it and go somewhere else. If a movie gets panned by other movie goers, people use that information to go see a different movie. For most products nowadays, you don't just get your money back and (assuming you bought it brand new) people don't want to support companies who don't care about the consumer's wants and make poor products. Jesus, imagine if investors just invested in every single thing out there without proper research...my god...

So no, just because YOU had fun doesn't mean that everyone should just go blindly buy Sw/Sh now. Some people don't enjoy poor quality products, myself being one of them in terms of video games. GameFreak screwed the pooch on this one, and just because they are selling a lot of copies to people who don't pay attention or blind devotees doesn't mean this won't come back to bite them later on. I mean, we were on this thing talking about how The Last Jedi did well in the box office despite the controversy, but Solo bombed hard and Star Wars has been bombing on most fronts since then. It's only a matter of time...

So now that more people are accepting that Lloyd might be the Namco rep and FP5 or one of the future DLC chaaracters, Sigran101 Sigran101 would you care to enlighten the crowd about your Mii Sword Fighter theory?
Now that I've had at you for that, I will say I'm interested in this, as I'm basically a step away from confidently saying to expect LLoyd as FP#5.

What be this theory? I'm wondering if I heard it already.

EDIT: Nvm I was too slow, and I have heard about that theory. That said, we've had characters glitching out with Terry recently that likely lead to nothing, so that does throw a slight monkey wrench into that old theory.
 
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RetrogamerMax

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Now that I've had at you for that, I will say I'm interested in this, as I'm basically a step away from confidently saying to expect LLoyd as FP#5.

What be this theory? I'm wondering if I heard it already.
Sigran101 Sigran101 already explained:

Basically just that duck hunt and mii swordfighter started glitching when plant came out, and people speculated that it's because they were being used as a base for a new character. This was part of the reason I and many others were confident in Banjo and Kazooie. Of course that did end up panning out. Most assumed mii was for Erdrick, who was thought to be child form at the time because of the Brave stats datamine. Then we all just kind of forgot about it when Hero came out and was clearly based on Link rather than mii swordfighter. So now I'm thinking mii swordfighter is for Lloyd.
 

Vector Victor

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Sabi said it wasn’t Doom Slayer because at that time insiders hadn’t heard literally anything about Doom content in Smash before the Mii Costume ordeal. For Ryu and Crash they had an insider actually say it’s not them. Since the number of potential characters had jumped to 4 I theorize Doom Slayer might be one of them now
Which is amusing as ever since the Fighter Pass was announced, every 'leak' had Doom Guy associated with it. As each character came out, Doom Guy was coming off as Vergeben's Minecraft content claim, constantly insisted that they were coming.

Maybe they will in the end but it's funny how much he was pushed by 'leakers.'
 

Spatulo

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I’m not 3D modeler, but i think trophies wouldn’t have a skeleton and therefore would be harder to repurpose than a mii costume was, but it could still happen. The only trophy I could see happening is Rayman tbh. Then again I could be talking out of my ass lol
As someone with the vaguest experience with 3D modeling, the trophies likely have some sort of basic skeleton but it would of course be a significant undertaking to make a character starting from just a trophy. That being said, it’s still something, so they could still start with that as some base resources.

That’s what I’ve been thinking too. They probably found more info on Doomguy after the Cacomallow leak, even if it was fake
I’m trying my best not to hold onto hope of it being real all along, but man... it’d just be so hype

EDIT:
Which is amusing as ever since the Fighter Pass was announced, every 'leak' had Doom Guy associated with it. As each character came out, Doom Guy was coming off as Vergeben's Minecraft content claim, constantly insisted that they were coming.

Maybe they will in the end but it's funny how much he was pushed by 'leakers.'
That’s a good point actually lol, he was in so many fake 4chan leaks but never anything “real”, so if he does end up being the final character after all it’d be pretty funny lol
 
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Midget Master

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Mad respect for the people who were pissed at Sword and Shield, said they weren't going to buy it, and stuck to their guns. There were unfortunately fewer of us than our brethren who caved.

I still can't really imagine any company that would be more likely to get a "thank you" than Namco. I've kinda been tunneled on Lloyd for a while, and while his prospects look good I might also be blinded by wanting him a lot. We'll have to see, I guess.
 

TheCJBrine

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Can we just stop this dumb Sw/Sh argument, not everyone is gonna agree over the “poor quality” and stupid “bad consumer” crap. Yes, it doesn’t hold up to some past games given its flaws, but it still looks like a dang good game with a lot of people having fun and this pointless argument over a game is getting tiring. It already made more in 2-3 days than some past games and Smash did in the same timeframe/a week after their release, so it’s not like us keeping ourselves from buying it is gonna help and we actually WANT to buy it, not just because of the franchise. FYI, Masuda originally didn’t think they could ever cut Pokémon, and I doubt he’d just suddenly start making cash grabs, so I’m sure there’s more behind the scenes than just “Game Freak bad.” Yes, they lied, that doesn’t mean they didn’t try (not saying their lying is excusable, but I don't know the going-ons with them internally so I don't want to judge them myself), a modern console game can’t possibly be absolutely fantastic in every aspect when they have to develop it within 1-to-1-and-a-half years, and they actually did put effort into a bunch of new animations and character animations even if a bunch of past moves and turning still look generic as heck. Go frickin yell at The Pokémon Company and their yearly release schedule instead of bothering everyone about the same crap over and over and over again.
 
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Rohanx17

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My problem is that if fatman really has faith in this 6/7 asset reusal thing it just makes way too much sense for it it be geno and Lloyd in my mind especially with mii costume theory in play. And of course he can't be both 5 and 7 so I'm honestly stumped on who 5 could be. A namco character makes sense given how sakurai has been picking them but it just feels so much more likely to be from somewhere new. I thought about a couple possible candidates but nothing really sticks out especially in terms of the vga. Maybe I'm wrong and it will be Lloyd but I just don't feel confident in it like I was a few months ago.
 
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ForsakenM

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Can we just stop this dumb Sw/Sh argument, not everyone is gonna agree over the “poor quality” and stupid “bad consumer” crap. Yes, it doesn’t hold up to some past games given its flaws, but it still looks like a dang good game with a lot of people having fun and this pointless argument over a game is getting tiring. It already made more in 2-3 days than some past games and Smash did in the same timeframe/a week after their release, so it’s not like us keeping ourselves from buying it is gonna help and we actually WANT to buy it, not just because of the franchise. FYI, Masuda originally didn’t think they could ever cut Pokémon, and I doubt he’d just suddenly start making cash grabs, so I’m sure there’s more behind the scenes than just “Game Freak bad.” Yes, they lied, that doesn’t mean they didn’t try, a modern console game can’t possibly be absolutely fantastic in every aspect when they have to develop it within 1-to-1-and-a-half years, and they actually did put effort into a bunch of new animations and character animations even if a bunch of past moves and turning still look generic as heck. Go frickin yell at The Pokémon Company and their yearly release schedule instead of bothering everyone about the same crap over and over and over again.
Yo, Steve main, you ragin' right now. Big sales =/= a good game. It's still an average game at best, regardless if people buy it a lot or not. That's like saying an undercooked chicken sandwich is suddenly a perfect chicken sandwich just because tons of people buy that undercooked sandwich. None of this is stupid: it's a serious issue in our time where people think that paying for something for a company they like or something they enjoy is much more important than having standards. Also, so much has come out about how GameFreak treats Pokemon that you really can't defend them. They are bad at coding and have been since GSC and now they don't have Iwata to keep them looking nice behind the scenes.

However, I do think we should stop talking about it. It's not going to get anywhere. It's just going to be people who blindly throw money at whatever they like yelling at people who understand what it means to be a good consumer, making the good consumers frustrated that they will continue to receive poor products because of the blind devotees and thus they yell back and then it just all gets muddied in the mix. Pokemon will learn just like Star Wars did in due time. The anger and disappointment will not fade. They are now in the same boat as Bethesda and Bioware and EA where every single thing they do will be held to massive scrutiny under a magnifying glass and every little mistake will be exposed.

Let's see how they deal with it.

EDIT: GameFreak owns most of TPC, so that argument about yelling at them really doesn't apply here.
 
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Dynamic Worlok

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I'm a few pages behind, so forgive me if this is an old topic, but wow, lots of shade thrown at sword and shield by people who didn't even play it. I played sword. Want my super hot take?

I had fun.

Does anything else really matter that much? They didn't have all the pokemon, the graphics could have been better yada yada. Play the damn game before you decide it's garbage. I actually had a good time with it, so I dgaf about the "objectively bad" parts. The point of a video game is to have fun, and that's exactly what I got out of it.
I think I'm allowed to decide if certain features are not to my liking or worth the 60 dollars. I'm not saying it's a bad game, but I AM saying it's not good enough for me. (At least not until it goes on sale in 20never)

As an addendum before I drop the argument for the sanity of all involved. Game freak might have tried, but they did lie, and a company should always be held accountable for their lies. It is inexcusable to lie to your consumer base
 
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Midget Master

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My thinking is still that Lloyd would make more sense to show elsewhere, and that the VGAs could play host to something bigger, and likely more in step with western audiences. Honestly, Doom made the most sense to me of anything for that spot, and it would then TECHNICALLY not be character 5... I mean, there's two videos! It could happen. Maybe. Possibly. Potentially.
 

Spatulo

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My problem is that if fatman really has faith in this 6/7 asset reusal thing it just makes way too much sense for it it be geno and Lloyd in my mind especially with mii costume theory in play. And of course he can't be both 5 and 7 so I'm honestly stumped on who 5 could be. A namco character makes sense given how sakurai has been picking them but it just feels so much more likely to be from somewhere new. I thought about a couple possible candidates but nothing really sticks out especially in terms of the vga. Maybe I'm wrong and it will be Lloyd but I just don't feel confident in it like I was a few months ago.
Yeah I agree with this, Lloyd is the next most likely “asset reusing” character after our boi imo, which makes me think he might be 6 or 7 instead of 5.
 

RetrogamerMax

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My thinking is still that Lloyd would make more sense to show elsewhere, and that the VGAs could play host to something bigger, and likely more in step with western audiences. Honestly, Doom made the most sense to me of anything for that spot, and it would then TECHNICALLY not be character 5... I mean, there's two videos! It could happen. Maybe. Possibly. Potentially.
If Joker could be revealed at the VGA then so can Lloyd Irving.

Edit: But yeah, FP5 or beyond, Lloyd I would say is a VERY safe bet to put stock into.
 
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Midget Master

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I dunno. Persona 5 was ginormous over here, and also still relatively new. The one thing I think Lloyd has going for him at the VGAs is that they might show more on Tales of Arise, but... I kinda feel like it has to be a big showstopper of a character, with the way they've been teasing at it and hinting at it. I wouldn't mind being wrong in the slightest, though.
 

Grumbo

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I dont wanna keep the arguement going like CJ said, but I gotta throw my two cents in real quick and say that everyone should be able to make a judgement on a product before buying it. My enjoyment was wanning by ORAS, and i skipped gen 7. There’s enough content cut that I know I’m not gonna enjoy SwSh, and I dont have 60 bucks just to make a proper judgement. Get it if you want or skip it if you don’t. We shouldnt gate keep this kinda stuff
 

Rohanx17

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This thing about it is that despite assists, scrapped fighters, and possibly trophies all counting as asset reusal he has been pretty focused on the costumes in the scope of this discussion, and there is really only 4 left, geno, Lloyd, heihachi, and MH. And the difference between the situation of the first 2 and last 2 are quite staggering.
 
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SpiritOfRuin

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So I don't want to dive too hard into this again as I'm only going to be repeating myself and I want to focus on my big positive Geno Bro message, but here it the problem with your statement just like that popular Youtuber who acted all coy about saying he enjoyed Sw/Sh.

It's fine that you enjoyed it, but you can have fun playing Kick The Can or Playing Pretend or climbing a tree. You can have fun with friends and family, and you can enjoy things that are of poor quality. Once again, I love the Puppet Master franchise, but it's a really ****ty C-Horror Movie series. It's really just bad and convoluted and makes no sense as well as not being made all that well from filming aspects...but I love it all the same. However, I acknowledge it's poor quality...but you are dismissing Sw/Sh's poor qualities. The issue here is acting as if Sw/Sh have no issues or that they don't matter because the game is fun just because 'i LoVe PoKeMoN sO i WiLl BuY iT cUz YoU aReN't' issue.

I'm not saying you can't have fun, that's the point of an entertainment product. It's one of the things I disagree with with SpiritOfRuin SpiritOfRuin because they see it as art while I see it as a product being sold for entertainment, and thus they think it can't be objectively judged where as I most certainly believe it can. It's technically both of those things, but I'm not judging it for anything less or more than it's poor quality and the stupid lies GameFreak has made.

Also, I'm not going to play the game, but I have gathered the obvious facts of it's flaws vs it's features and frankly, it doesn't hold up. Like I said, it's at best a 5/10, and average game but could very easily be below average for the lack of effort put into it.

Thus, here is your issue: since you had fun, you think it's unfair for people to judge it harshly, especially if they didn't play the game. But, isn't it unfair of you to tell people to buy a game that they see as not worth their money? By your logic, every person who buys anything should not do any research about the product beforehand and just buy it outright, then decide if it's worth the money they already paid. Newsflash: good consumerism does not work like that. If a restaurant gets bad reviews, people who have never been there skip it and go somewhere else. If a movie gets panned by other movie goers, people use that information to go see a different movie. For most products nowadays, you don't just get your money back and (assuming you bought it brand new) people don't want to support companies who don't care about the consumer's wants and make poor products. Jesus, imagine if investors just invested in every single thing out there without proper research...my god...

So no, just because YOU had fun doesn't mean that everyone should just go blindly buy Sw/Sh now. Some people don't enjoy poor quality products, myself being one of them in terms of video games. GameFreak screwed the pooch on this one, and just because they are selling a lot of copies to people who don't pay attention or blind devotees doesn't mean this won't come back to bite them later on. I mean, we were on this thing talking about how The Last Jedi did well in the box office despite the controversy, but Solo bombed hard and Star Wars has been bombing on most fronts since then. It's only a matter of time...



Now that I've had at you for that, I will say I'm interested in this, as I'm basically a step away from confidently saying to expect LLoyd as FP#5.

What be this theory? I'm wondering if I heard it already.

EDIT: Nvm I was too slow, and I have heard about that theory. That said, we've had characters glitching out with Terry recently that likely lead to nothing, so that does throw a slight monkey wrench into that old theory.
Again I don't think you're really looking at what I'm saying because I am talking about them both as "art" if you will and a product. I said several times that not everyone will enjoy it and it depends on what is important to you in a game (product). I get that you don't want to support Gamefreak and have no interest in buying a game that you deem lazy and low quality. And I also said there were odd choices made by the development team and some down right infuriating aspects in typical Gamefreak fashion. But overall, a lot of things that seemed lacklaster and that I was worried would be unexciting ended up being really enjoyable (for me; this is opinion). Everyone should not go buy these games as I already said people already have or are not going to go get it and very few are on the fence and that's fine. What I'm saying is not that people should go buy it to see if it's good. What I'm saying is that if you want to be a resource about something, then you have to have experienced that thing. We were discussing a post that listed cons with evidence about sword/shield but the list was clearly designed by someone who was negatively biased and had not played the games making them an ineffective resource. I very clearly don't think it's unfair for people to have opposing opinions but it doesn't change the fact that these games looked terrible to me from the outside but are entirely different beast as an experience.

Allow me to elaborate on that last point a little. I went to see the band A Day to Remember in concert when I was in college and one of the bands that opened for them was a band I had never heard of: Enter Shikari. Enter Shikari was the craziest best band in concert but when I looked up their songs later, listening to the songs through speakers on my computer was quite lackluster compared to how they were live. Having the experience is a crucial aspect in being able to effectively evaluate something. I would go around saying Enter Shikari was an ok band had I just heard their songs and not seen them live. Looking at Sword/Shield from the outside before playing them did not give me a wholistic view of the effort and fun aspects that were within the game especially considering that Gamefreak really didn't share much.

There are aspects of the game that are bad there's no denying that. But again as I look out upon the sea of video games, there are no monster catching/battling games that can hold a candle to Pokemon (again my opinion I've tried many and they may have fun aspects but end up wholly disappointing. Some fan made Pokemon games are great tho) and it's pretty amazing what Gamefreak is able to do with the budget and time they have to make Pokemon games. I just don't see what's lazy here. Looking at the games prior to playing them I thought they were sloppy but while playing them I didn't notice any issues and actually had an extremely smooth and graphically pleasing experience. I just don't understand what's objectively bad other than Dexit and Mexit and the former is understandable that it'd happen eventually and at least they told us about that in advance and I respect that.

I am glad that you do your research to decide whether you consider a product is worth your money or not. I do the same as someone who is tight on money. I usually invest in Pokemon because I have friends who play and my sister plays and I like to critique and praise the designs and I really enjoy breeding and coming up with obscure team strategies which are really the important aspects to me, but again not everyone will feel the same way and that's ok. I would encourage everyone to research products they purchase and make pros and cons lists with individual values for each pro and con (if applicable) to properly evaluate their worth. I don't think that you should get sword and shield because clearly what is important to you is different than what's important to me and that's ok. I just encourage people to not get solely wrapped up in the negativity and look at the positive aspects as well because as you said just because there are positives does not mean that the negatives are not relevant or any less real and the opposite of that is true as well. I just am not going to sit around while people spew an only somewhat educated gospel of hate towards something when there is an alternative viewpoint to consider as well. But anyway I don't intend to continue this debate with you as I think we've both said the important aspects of our differing perspectives and at the end of the day you're still my Geno bro and I'm with you and not against you. If I may ask, what kinds of games do you enjoy and what makes them enjoyable for you and what negatives have you maybe overlooked or felt were not a big deal in them?
 

MisterMike

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I even rewatched the scene to make sure and not a single one blames Luke. Luke was literally the first person to bring up his involvement in the affair. After Luke's tirade about he couldn't have known and therefore guiltless only then does someone even bring up the fact that Luke was involved. That person was literally Mieu and only because he also got people from his village hurt so he tried to sympathize with Luke only for Luke to treat him with the usual disdain. There was a skit afterwards were Anise hints to Luke's involvement to get him to respond but he doesn't and Jade berates her for wasting time getting Luke to accept any wrong doing. Literally before that everyone was too busy thinking about the situation or focusing on how if only they realized Vaan's plan earlier they could have saved people. Heck even Ion took responsibility for opening the door that allowed Vaan to do what he did but Luke only cared about defending himself. If Luke had even slightly shown some remorse for actions instead of getting defensive he wouldn't have had the party turn on him. From then on decides to change and live a better life in respect for the tragedy he helped cause. At the very least that's my take on it.
I watched the scene again as well. For clarity's sake, I'll post what was said in this scene, word-for-word, starting from the point which leads to Luke's outburst.

Ion: ... At any rate, we've fallen down here. We were saved, thanks to Tear's fonic hymn.
Jade: Why did this happen? You said Akzeriuth was supported by a pillar, correct?
Ion: Yes, but... that pillar disintegrated.
Anise: How?

At this point, everyone turns to face Luke. The implication being that they all know why it happened, and blame him for it.

Luke: ... I-I don't know anything about it! I was just trying to neutralize the miasma!
Luke: He told me that if I caused a hyperresonance there, the miasma would disappear...!
Tear: My brother decieved you. And you destroyed the pillar that supported Akzeriuth.
Luke: No! That can't be...
Ion: Van ordered you to stand next to the passage ring.
Ion: Those passage rings are what produce the pillars... Tear is probably right.
Ion: I was careless. I never dreamed that Van would make Luke do such a thing...
Jade: I wish Luke has at least discussed it with us beforehand.
Jade: Neutralizing the miasma could have waited until the residents were evacuated.
Jade: ... Of course, there is little point in saying that now.
Natalia: Yes... Akzeriuth is gone. Thousands of lives, lost in and instant...
A-are you saying it's my fault...?

Cue a 10 second stretch of silence as the entire crew look at Luke, implicitly telling him that they wholeheartedly blame him for it all.

Luke: It's not... It's not my fault!
Luke: Master Van said... Yeah! Master Van told me to do it!
Luke: I had no idea this would happen! No one told me!
Luke: It's not my fault! It's not my fault!

At this point, Jade begins to walk out of the room.

Tear: ... Colonel?
Jade: I'm returning to the bridge. If I say here, I'll just be irritated by some ridiculous ranting.

Jade leaves the room.

Luke: What's your problem?! I tried to save Akzeriuth!

Natalia walks towards Luke.

Natalia: Ever since you lost your memory, you're like a completely different person...

Natalia leaves the room.

Luke: Y-you all couldn't do anything to stop it, either! Don't just blame me!
Ion: You're right. I'm powerless. But still...
Anise: Ion! Don't even bother talking to him. He's not worth it.

Anise leaves the room, dragging Ion out with her.

Luke: I-it's Mater Van's fault! Not mine! Right, Guy?!
Guy: Luke... Don't make me think even less of you...

Guy leaves the room.

Tear: I was stupid for starting to think you had some good in you...

Tear leaves the room.

Luke: Wh-why?! Why are you all blaming me?!
Mieu: Master... cheer up.
Luke: Sh-shut up! What do you know?!
Mieu: A lot of my people died because of me.
Mieu: So... I can understand what you're feeling, Master.
Luke: Don't compare me to YOU! Don't compare me to... Aah...

Luke begins to cry. The scene ends.
Alright, now that that's done, allow me to provide some couterarguments to your points:

Luke was literally the first person to bring up his involvement in the affair.
The conversation naturally flowed from them trying to piece together what happened to them implicitly blaming Luke for what happened to Akzeriuth, because they remember that Luke was the one at the Sephiroth Tree. Luke only began to defend himself when the conversation turned to him.

After Luke's tirade about how he couldn't have known and therefore guiltless only then does someone even bring up the fact that Luke was involved. That person was literally Mieu and only because he also got people from his village hurt so he tried to sympathize with Luke only for Luke to treat him with the usual disdain.
Mieu only chimed in when everyone has already said their peace and left the room in anger, and even then Mieu doesn't agree with him that it wasn't his fault, rather he reinforces it. Luke DID mess up, and it's all his fault. His attempt to cheer Luke up basically amounted to "I know you did this awful thing, but that's okay because I've also done a similarly terrible thing, and thus I know how terribly you're feeling right now". It's an attempt at empathy which falls flat because empathy isn't what Luke necessarily wanted.

There was a skit afterwards were Anise hints to Luke's involvement to get him to respond but he doesn't and Jade berates her for wasting time getting Luke to accept any wrong doing. Literally before that everyone was too busy thinking about the situation or focusing on how if only they realized Vaan's plan earlier they could have saved people.
You're referring to the skit "Responsibility", right?

Natalia: Did no one else survive besides us...?
Guy: I doubt it. They were probably all swallowed up by that sludge...
Anise: Ugh... This is horrible...
Ion: ...It's my fault. If only I hadn't opened the door so carelessly...
Anise: You may have opened the door, but that doesn't make it your fault. It's Van and...
Luke: ......
Jade: Anise, don't bother. You're wasting your time.
Guy: Don't talk about Luke like that. We don't have time for that kind of thing now.
Jade: ...You have a point. If we don't make it to Yulia City, we'll be in danger ourselves.

Jade, Anise, Guy, Natalia and Ion leaves.

Luke: Dammit...

Not exactly sure how this helps your argument.

Heck, even Ion took responsibility for opening the door that allowed Vaan to do what he did.
But that doesn't mean he's not blaming Luke for it in part. Ion sharing in Luke's blame doesn't absolve Luke of any blame, it reinforces it.

But Luke only cared about defending himself. If Luke had even slightly shown some remorse for his actions instead of getting defensive he wouldn't have had the party turn on him.
Luke was getting defensive because everyone was blaming him for what happened, either in part or in whole, which is exactly what happened in that scene and a good deal beyond. Honestly, I don't blame him for being defensive when everybody in the party is trying to blame him for something he feels he wasn't responsible for. And why exactly should Luke take responsibility for what happened anyways? He was only doing what Van told him, and at the time he wholeheartedly trusted Van like a father, so he had no reason to doubt Van when he told him that he had found a way to save Akzeriuth.

Plus, it's revealed later on that Luke is a replica that is both mentally and physically 7 years old. This means that what Van did to Luke was basically a grown adult manipulating a child into unknowingly murdering hundreds of people, and I highly doubt you or anyone else would seriously blame the child in that situation... or at least I hope you wouldn't. And as for Luke apparently not showing any remorse, well, I think him breaking down in tears speaks volumes on that front.[/QUOTE]
 

TheCJBrine

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Yo, Steve main, you ragin' right now. Big sales =/= a good game. It's still an average game at best, regardless if people buy it a lot or not. That's like saying an undercooked chicken sandwich is suddenly a perfect chicken sandwich just because tons of people buy that undercooked sandwich. None of this is stupid: it's a serious issue in our time where people think that paying for something for a company they like or something they enjoy is much more important than having standards. Also, so much has come out about how GameFreak treats Pokemon that you really can't defend them. They are bad at coding and have been since GSC and now they don't have Iwata to keep them looking nice behind the scenes.

However, I do think we should stop talking about it. It's not going to get anywhere. It's just going to be people who blindly throw money at whatever they like yelling at people who understand what it means to be a good consumer, making the good consumers frustrated that they will continue to receive poor products because of the blind devotees and thus they yell back and then it just all gets muddied in the mix. Pokemon will learn just like Star Wars did in due time. The anger and disappointment will not fade. They are now in the same boat as Bethesda and Bioware and EA where every single thing they do will be held to massive scrutiny under a magnifying glass and every little mistake will be exposed.

Let's see how they deal with it.

EDIT: GameFreak owns most of TPC, so that argument about yelling at them really doesn't apply here.
I’m not frickin blind nor are a lot of other people, and I know just ‘cause it sells a lot doesn’t mean it’s good, but a lot of people actually do think it’s good. There’s flaws and Game Freak seems to lack some know-how since there are a couple of weird things even a game made in a year shouldn’t have, but that we’re somehow bad consumers for liking it? Stop it with that crap. People already have to put up with a bunch of toxic fricks spamming hate and rage on twitter and reddit, and even “optimistic” people whom are also toxic and pretend there aren’t any sort of flaws - though, really, the flaws may not even be “flaws” to them. And are we sure GF owns most of TPC? Because Creatures and Nintendo also own a good chunk of it, and whoever is in charge of TPC as a whole does a bunch of stuff without GF with the only thing GF does being making the mainline games. I think it’s telling how there’s only a year between each generation now despite not working with sprites anymore.

I understand the issues people have with the game, I really do, and it is disappointing Pokémon won’t be as good as it could be, even if it’s still good or decent at least imo despite missed potential. But when you and other people start claiming “bad consumers” and a bunch of other crap without considering their side, and assume the games can be the greatest ever when they keep having this dumb yearly schedule, yeah, frickin stuff a sock in it. Y’all can rally for better games without being jerks.

And an undercooked chicken sandwich is a bad analogy, that can actually hurt your health. This is a frickin game. I’m just as passionate about games as the next guy, but come on. And Steve has nothing to do with this, it’s actually frickin silly to complain and be a jerk over him in Smash as people have done before and I ain’t goin’ back to that even stupider argument; y’all can dislike a character without being jerks about it.

edit: also, from a thing I said earlier, I know lying isn't really excusable, and it is annoying, but I don't want to judge them when I don't even know what's going on internally and the rest of TPC could've possibly had their butts over the fireplace if they didn't say some PR stuff.
 
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Midget Master

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Messages
162
The last thing I'll say about the Pokemon thing is that I think both the games and the developers would benefit from getting the hell away from the stupid yearly release schedule. It's not doing them any good, only their wallets.
 
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Grumbo

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Joined
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Messages
673
I wonder if a monster hunter actually has a decent shot. The Ratholos is one of the few bosses in the game, and its kinda weird not having a character with it. But then again Sakurai couldve seen the boss as the best way to represent the series so idk
 

Fatmanonice

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I have a question, it may be a bit ignorant of me. Would people really get in trouble if just the names of the four/five companies got leaked? Is that damnable enough evidence?
If they are actual leakbait and Nintendo is infact the one pushing the names, yes. The thing about leakbait is that it's not always always like throwing paper flyers out of an airplane. Sometimes it's a lot more selective and certain departments or even certain people are deliberately told false info as a sort of "test" and it makes it easier to track if a certain name does get made public.
 

AceAttorney9000

Smash Lord
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Messages
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I wonder if a monster hunter actually has a decent shot. The Ratholos is one of the few bosses in the game, and its kinda weird not having a character with it. But then again Sakurai couldve seen the boss as the best way to represent the series so idk
Ultimate currently has Rathalos in the triple role of boss/assist trophy/spirit, plus a couple music tracks... and that's about it.

There's just a very weird lack of Monster Hunter content in Ultimate right now. The two Monster Hunter Mii costumes haven't returned yet, there's no spirits of any other monsters like Rajang or Nergigante, and no music other than the two tracks already in. I know people argue that Rathalos would be "enough" since the monsters are the main appeal of the series, but you'd think a big franchise like Monster Hunter would have more than just Rathalos and a couple tracks.

It makes me think a playable Monster Hunter character as future DLC is really likely... and to be honest, I wouldn't mind that, especially after seeing a playable Monster Hunter in Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite. Say what you will about that game, but the way it handled the Monster Hunter character was spot-on, and I think Smash Ultimate could use the same concept and take it several steps further.
 

Sigran101

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So I don't want to dive too hard into this again as I'm only going to be repeating myself and I want to focus on my big positive Geno Bro message, but here it the problem with your statement just like that popular Youtuber who acted all coy about saying he enjoyed Sw/Sh.

It's fine that you enjoyed it, but you can have fun playing Kick The Can or Playing Pretend or climbing a tree. You can have fun with friends and family, and you can enjoy things that are of poor quality. Once again, I love the Puppet Master franchise, but it's a really ****ty C-Horror Movie series. It's really just bad and convoluted and makes no sense as well as not being made all that well from filming aspects...but I love it all the same. However, I acknowledge it's poor quality...but you are dismissing Sw/Sh's poor qualities. The issue here is acting as if Sw/Sh have no issues or that they don't matter because the game is fun just because 'i LoVe PoKeMoN sO i WiLl BuY iT cUz YoU aReN't' issue.

I'm not saying you can't have fun, that's the point of an entertainment product. It's one of the things I disagree with with SpiritOfRuin SpiritOfRuin because they see it as art while I see it as a product being sold for entertainment, and thus they think it can't be objectively judged where as I most certainly believe it can. It's technically both of those things, but I'm not judging it for anything less or more than it's poor quality and the stupid lies GameFreak has made.

Also, I'm not going to play the game, but I have gathered the obvious facts of it's flaws vs it's features and frankly, it doesn't hold up. Like I said, it's at best a 5/10, and average game but could very easily be below average for the lack of effort put into it.

Thus, here is your issue: since you had fun, you think it's unfair for people to judge it harshly, especially if they didn't play the game. But, isn't it unfair of you to tell people to buy a game that they see as not worth their money? By your logic, every person who buys anything should not do any research about the product beforehand and just buy it outright, then decide if it's worth the money they already paid. Newsflash: good consumerism does not work like that. If a restaurant gets bad reviews, people who have never been there skip it and go somewhere else. If a movie gets panned by other movie goers, people use that information to go see a different movie. For most products nowadays, you don't just get your money back and (assuming you bought it brand new) people don't want to support companies who don't care about the consumer's wants and make poor products. Jesus, imagine if investors just invested in every single thing out there without proper research...my god...

So no, just because YOU had fun doesn't mean that everyone should just go blindly buy Sw/Sh now. Some people don't enjoy poor quality products, myself being one of them in terms of video games. GameFreak screwed the pooch on this one, and just because they are selling a lot of copies to people who don't pay attention or blind devotees doesn't mean this won't come back to bite them later on. I mean, we were on this thing talking about how The Last Jedi did well in the box office despite the controversy, but Solo bombed hard and Star Wars has been bombing on most fronts since then. It's only a matter of time...



Now that I've had at you for that, I will say I'm interested in this, as I'm basically a step away from confidently saying to expect LLoyd as FP#5.

What be this theory? I'm wondering if I heard it already.

EDIT: Nvm I was too slow, and I have heard about that theory. That said, we've had characters glitching out with Terry recently that likely lead to nothing, so that does throw a slight monkey wrench into that old theory.
Woah there. First off, I never said you must buy it. If you don't want to you don't have to. But you aren't qualified to tell others ehether it's a good game or not unless you've actually played it. I had quite ablast with it. It's honestly one of yhe best gens in recent memory imo. But you wouldn't know. You can cite other reviewers. You can tell me technical things you don't like. But you can't tell me you know it's a bad game if you haven't played it. This is the same thing as people attacking potential smash characters because they don't like the idea of the character even though they've never even tried it. Playing a game is a very different experience than reading reviews and complaining about them online.
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,336
The last thing I'll say about the Pokemon thing is that I think both the games and the developers would benefit from getting the hell away from the stupid yearly release schedule. It's not doing them any good, only their wallets.
THIS. THIS, people! If nothing else, I should think we can all agree that yearly releases are just stupid. Period. Good things take time, especially video games. As a production engineer I can tell you, rushing technical things will give you **** EVERY TIME. You want quality? Don't cut corners, don't make excuses, and don't be too freaking cheap. This annual release thing is putting itself solidly into "cash-grab" territory and that's not how you make an epic game. Why do you think Metroid Prime 4 had to restart development? Why do you think it's taken this long to make it? Why do mainline Zelda games usually only come once or twice in a console's lifetime? Because good stuff takes time. And to those of you that think Swish is so great, imagine what GF could have done with another year of development? How about two? Yeah, annual releases need to burn in hell where they belong.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
If you don't think Sunshine is a masterpiece you're missing out. Criticize the FLUDD mechanic all you want, it was a venture in both gameplay and storytelling for the mainline Mario series and it's an absolutely fantastic game.
I have probably the most interesting relationship with Mario Sunshine of any Mario title. I think FLUDD was a great gimmick and the platforming segments without him are probably some of the best in the history of the franchise. There are points where the game is brutally difficult which is rare for a Mario title and for people like me, welcome, but there's also so many times that the difficulty comes from getting bull****ted or just needless tedium. I often recount my time playing it like a war story - it was a great time but man was there some unforgettable atrocities that I had to live through, too.

I don't deny it being a good game - overall it's a fun memory, but I don't think it'd make a top ten Mario games for me, much less my top ten video games in general. Maybe top ten games that genuinely frustrated me to the point of quitting sometimes.


Maybe if it had Geno in it...
 

CroonerMike

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 6, 2013
Messages
1,876
A little Geno story I thought I share with you all. I remember I got my SNES when was In middle school I believe. It was a used one as by this time the GameCube was

I had got SMRPG for 40$ from a local GameStop and it was my First true RPG. Couldn’t stand RPGS but my older siblings loved them and I desperately wanted to get into them too. I took a massive liking to Geno instantly however, never would of realized how big he’d become. My siblings watched me play the game and always talked about how I had Geno on my team. We bonded over the game.

fast forwards to brawl and I was lurking around here. I liked learning about whatever everyone was talking about. However, I couldn’t understand why Geno was talked about. He was a side character, a simple party member to me. However, I wanted Geno so much. I knew it wouldn’t happen because of the situations surrounding him...or what we all told ourselves.

Smash 4 then started up, and I honestly forgot about Geno to a degree. Kinda thought it was stupid people wanted Geno considering all he had against him. I literally did not gun for Geno. He was just one of my fantasy characters....until that mii costume and Sakurai’s comments towards him. When Sakurai mentioned he’s wanted Geno since brawl, the child in me was so happy.

Smash Ultimate was announced before e3 and quite honestly had no clue what to expect. My top wants Ridley/K.Rool/Banno/Geno seemed to be not happening. I have less time to spend on the internet as I am in my career and prefer not to spend my free time on the internet (it’s a rainy day today so here I am). So I missed many of the leaks. Ridley and K. Rool got announced and I freaked out. Then I got my Other never ever, Banjo Kazooie. I was not expecting it at all.

That just leaves us with my Last one. Ever since brawl I’ve always had only a few wants. I have patiently waited these few years. The only one I wanted in Brawl was Wario and he was shown right from the get go. Since then I’ve waited for Banjo, Ridley, king K Rool, and Geno. I was always good when people got their most wanted. Smash 4 was so disappointing to me in terms of characters. I was so disappointed and I lost one of my mains (wolf).

I think it may happen. Like a lot of you from the brawl era, I’ve wanted this too. I know y’all get a lot of ****, and let’s face it some of you are insane crazy. But you deserve it, and I want it with you all.

Here’s to hopefully getting Geno. :)
 

Organization XIII

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,083
I watched the scene again as well. For clarity's sake, I'll post what was said in this scene, word-for-word, starting from the point which leads to Luke's outburst.

Ion: ... At any rate, we've fallen down here. We were saved, thanks to Tear's fonic hymn.
Jade: Why did this happen? You said Akzeriuth was supported by a pillar, correct?
Ion: Yes, but... that pillar disintegrated.
Anise: How?

At this point, everyone turns to face Luke. The implication being that they all know why it happened, and blame him for it.

Luke: ... I-I don't know anything about it! I was just trying to neutralize the miasma!
Luke: He told me that if I caused a hyperresonance there, the miasma would disappear...!
Tear: My brother decieved you. And you destroyed the pillar that supported Akzeriuth.
Luke: No! That can't be...
Ion: Van ordered you to stand next to the passage ring.
Ion: Those passage rings are what produce the pillars... Tear is probably right.
Ion: I was careless. I never dreamed that Van would make Luke do such a thing...
Jade: I wish Luke has at least discussed it with us beforehand.
Jade: Neutralizing the miasma could have waited until the residents were evacuated.
Jade: ... Of course, there is little point in saying that now.
Natalia: Yes... Akzeriuth is gone. Thousands of lives, lost in and instant...
A-are you saying it's my fault...?

Cue a 10 second stretch of silence as the entire crew look at Luke, implicitly telling him that they wholeheartedly blame him for it all.

Luke: It's not... It's not my fault!
Luke: Master Van said... Yeah! Master Van told me to do it!
Luke: I had no idea this would happen! No one told me!
Luke: It's not my fault! It's not my fault!

At this point, Jade begins to walk out of the room.

Tear: ... Colonel?
Jade: I'm returning to the bridge. If I say here, I'll just be irritated by some ridiculous ranting.

Jade leaves the room.

Luke: What's your problem?! I tried to save Akzeriuth!

Natalia walks towards Luke.

Natalia: Ever since you lost your memory, you're like a completely different person...

Natalia leaves the room.

Luke: Y-you all couldn't do anything to stop it, either! Don't just blame me!
Ion: You're right. I'm powerless. But still...
Anise: Ion! Don't even bother talking to him. He's not worth it.

Anise leaves the room, dragging Ion out with her.

Luke: I-it's Mater Van's fault! Not mine! Right, Guy?!
Guy: Luke... Don't make me think even less of you...

Guy leaves the room.

Tear: I was stupid for starting to think you had some good in you...

Tear leaves the room.

Luke: Wh-why?! Why are you all blaming me?!
Mieu: Master... cheer up.
Luke: Sh-shut up! What do you know?!
Mieu: A lot of my people died because of me.
Mieu: So... I can understand what you're feeling, Master.
Luke: Don't compare me to YOU! Don't compare me to... Aah...

Luke begins to cry. The scene ends.
Alright, now that that's done, allow me to provide some couterarguments to your points:


The conversation naturally flowed from them trying to piece together what happened to them implicitly blaming Luke for what happened to Akzeriuth, because they remember that Luke was the one at the Sephiroth Tree. Luke only began to defend himself when the conversation turned to him.


Mieu only chimed in when everyone has already said their peace and left the room in anger, and even then Mieu doesn't agree with him that it wasn't his fault, rather he reinforces it. Luke DID mess up, and it's all his fault. His attempt to cheer Luke up basically amounted to "I know you did this awful thing, but that's okay because I've also done a similarly terrible thing, and thus I know how terribly you're feeling right now". It's an attempt at empathy which falls flat because empathy isn't what Luke necessarily wanted.


You're referring to the skit "Responsibility", right?

Natalia: Did no one else survive besides us...?
Guy: I doubt it. They were probably all swallowed up by that sludge...
Anise: Ugh... This is horrible...
Ion: ...It's my fault. If only I hadn't opened the door so carelessly...
Anise: You may have opened the door, but that doesn't make it your fault. It's Van and...
Luke: ......
Jade: Anise, don't bother. You're wasting your time.
Guy: Don't talk about Luke like that. We don't have time for that kind of thing now.
Jade: ...You have a point. If we don't make it to Yulia City, we'll be in danger ourselves.

Jade, Anise, Guy, Natalia and Ion leaves.

Luke: Dammit...

Not exactly sure how this helps your argument.


But that doesn't mean he's not blaming Luke for it in part. Ion sharing in Luke's blame doesn't absolve Luke of any blame, it reinforces it.


Luke was getting defensive because everyone was blaming him for what happened, either in part or in whole, which is exactly what happened in that scene and a good deal beyond. Honestly, I don't blame him for being defensive when everybody in the party is trying to blame him for something he feels he wasn't responsible for. And why exactly should Luke take responsibility for what happened anyways? He was only doing what Van told him, and at the time he wholeheartedly trusted Van like a father, so he had no reason to doubt Van when he told him that he had found a way to save Akzeriuth.

Plus, it's revealed later on that Luke is a replica that is both mentally and physically 7 years old. This means that what Van did to Luke was basically a grown adult manipulating a child into unknowingly murdering hundreds of people, and I highly doubt you or anyone else would seriously blame the child in that situation... or at least I hope you wouldn't. And as for Luke apparently not showing any remorse, well, I think him breaking down in tears speaks volumes on that front.
[/QUOTE]
Ok well like I said even Ion tried to take responsibility and they understood it wasn't his fault and you see the difference between Luke and Ion in the scene or you chop it up to hypocrisy. Like I said I literally watched the scene over and it was Luke's outburst that started first. I guess we just need to leave it getting two different perspectives from the same scenes.
 

RingJ5

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
617
Woah there. First off, I never said you must buy it. If you don't want to you don't have to. But you aren't qualified to tell others ehether it's a good game or not unless you've actually played it. I had quite ablast with it. It's honestly one of yhe best gens in recent memory imo. But you wouldn't know. You can cite other reviewers. You can tell me technical things you don't like. But you can't tell me you know it's a bad game if you haven't played it. This is the same thing as people attacking potential smash characters because they don't like the idea of the character even though they've never even tried it. Playing a game is a very different experience than reading reviews and complaining about them online.
I really didn’t want to jump back in to this conversation... but “you can’t say something’s a bad game if you haven’t played it” isn’t a great take, especially in the era of LPs and streams.

I could go to YT right now and watch a full playthrough, or even find a livestream and interact with the person playing it. Through either method, I could experience the full game and all its potential ups and downs, yet since I didn’t drop $60 on a product that I don’t personally want, none of that matters?

And while I do realize this is a bit of an extreme example, what about games generally seen as “objectively bad”? Do I need to play something like Ride to Hell: Retribution or that recent WWE abomination before I warn people against it?

These days, it’s easier than ever to experience a full game without actually playing it yourself, especially with a turn-based RPG where input skill doesn’t matter, so saying that it’s impossible to criticize something unless you actually played it isn’t quite as effective as it was a few years ago.
 
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Spatulo

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I have probably the most interesting relationship with Mario Sunshine of any Mario title. I think FLUDD was a great gimmick and the platforming segments without him are probably some of the best in the history of the franchise. There are points where the game is brutally difficult which is rare for a Mario title and for people like me, welcome, but there's also so many times that the difficulty comes from getting bull****ted or just needless tedium. I often recount my time playing it like a war story - it was a great time but man was there some unforgettable atrocities that I had to live through, too.

I don't deny it being a good game - overall it's a fun memory, but I don't think it'd make a top ten Mario games for me, much less my top ten video games in general. Maybe top ten games that genuinely frustrated me to the point of quitting sometimes.


Maybe if it had Geno in it...
Is it weird that I 100% agree that Sunshine has some absolute bs nonsense that it asks you to do and I love that it has that? Like I love the kind of jank and weirdness it throws at you, I don’t know why

Also I think this makes page 1800
 
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