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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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Spatulo

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Anyways my theory for why the Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario characters haven't made their way to other games is either they don't fit with the main Mario artstyle or there's some "these aren't our characters" bias going on behind the scenes, since they're made by developers outside of the main Mario devs.

That didn't stop me from drawing out how some of these could look if translated to the main Mario artstyle tho. Enjoy.

I honestly think the second theory is the real reason. It’s probably also the reason Wario and Waluigi are never in main series Mario games, they weren’t created by the main Mario team

Also I love your artwork, especially Vivian
 

Grumbo

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Oddly enough, Yoshi references are not as prevalent either. Think of any "Yoshi" track and you'll realize they don't represent the colorbook aesthetic of any of the Yoshi's Island games. Poochy only appeared in a brief (and I mean B R I E F) cameo in Double Dash, Baby Bowser is missing, almost no enemies original started in Yoshi games appear and hell, not even KAMEK shows up. The only real reference are the Baby racers (and even then, Baby Peach first appeared in a non-Yoshi game and Baby Daisy and Baby Rosalina were made up whole cloth for the Kart games) :yoshi:
I like the Mario Kart games but I will never get over the fact that they create useless variations of characters to fill slots (and some were DLC) when there’s such an expansive Mario universe. And I didnt even think of the Wario games until one of you guys mentioned it.
Hey guys, what if we get Geno, but he functioned differently...

As one part of a tag team character with Mallow being the other part of the team? How would you all react?
Not ideal but I’d take it
 

Malo Mart

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I honestly think the second theory is the real reason. It’s probably also the reason Wario and Waluigi are never in main series Mario games, they weren’t created by the main Mario team
My guess is that Wario and Waluigi were lucky to be included in Mario spin-offs thanks to other developers like Camelot and now they're staples in those kinds of games. The only hole I see in this theory is that Diddy Kong and my boy Funky Kong got in the Mario Kart games despite them being developed in-house, but Nintendo made damn sure to sweep them under the rug as well these days

That still hurts... :drsad:
Anyways my theory for why the Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario characters haven't made their way to other games is either they don't fit with the main Mario artstyle or there's some "these aren't our characters" bias going on behind the scenes, since they're made by developers outside of the main Mario devs.

That didn't stop me from drawing out how some of these could look if translated to the main Mario artstyle tho. Enjoy.

Forgot to say it but these are seriously good! I also have a soft spot for Super Paper Mario for being my first Mario RPG so that's a plus
 
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Spatulo

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Also have you noticed That Sam I Am's voice is done by "Pizza Steeeevveeee!!!"
I KNEW I HEARD HIM IN A CARTOON! I mean I recognized Adam DeVine’s voice anyway but I was thinking that I’d heard him in a cartoon before but couldn’t place it
 

ForsakenM

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So I LOVED SMRPG as a kid. I would have been 10 when this game was released and personally I didn't care for Geno either. I practically NEVER used him in my party but unlike you I never went the other direction. I just stayed kinda "meh" about him. Very good post though.
Gonna need you to understand something.

You came into a character support thread, randomly, and questioned why we wanted our character in a rather negative way. We get this ALL THE TIME any many of us who you've blocked already are sick of it. You could have just said 'Hey, I played SMRPG but Geno didn't jive with me. Why do you jive with him, I'd like to know?' but instead you came in here acting as if liking Geno was some sort of weird and negative thing just because you didn't understand it. That's a problem, and when people constantly come in here and bash us and our character the minute they open the door to our little home, we start answering the door with a loaded gun.

You are just the most recent of many people to come in and say 'Why Geno when X number of reasons it shouldn't be him because I said so, also here is a character I think should make it.' and thus, some of our more aggro-yet-lovable members have dealt with you they way the do. Also, flaunting about blocking/ignoring somebody when they call out your behavior doesn't win you any brownie points.

Now, imagine if I joined the Lloyd Irving thread and my first ever post was "Hey guys, I've played Tales Of Symphonia but I have to say...I REALLY don't get why you guys want Lloyd in Smash. I mean seriously, what's the big deal about Lloyd? He's just another anime protagonist with eyes that match his hair who wields a couple of swords and has a generic shounen anime protagonist voice that is really grating and honestly seems like he doesn't offer anything new to the table. Like, we already have enough generic anime swordsmen, so why on earth would you want another one when you could ask for literally any other character. Now, you want to know a good character to support? Geno! Seriously, he's a way better choice by far! I mean, the dude is a star spirit (which is basically an angel) that possessed an action figure strong enough to knock out Mario when it was just a regular toy AND he's filled to the brim with guns within his body? AND STAR SPIRIT MAGIC TO BOOT? He fast, he's cool, and he'd be perfect for Smash. So why ask for Lloyd when you can root for Geno!"

Sounds ungodly pretentious and inconsiderate, doesn't it? Well, that was you not just a few pages ago.

A bunch of people have done discourse with you and explained why we want Geno and have proven why your pre-conceived notions about him are extremely flawed. Thus, I won't add my story to the list, as it's all been said before. Here is what I will offer though.
  1. I hope you have learned why Geno is not only amazingly awesome but why he is the #1 fan-requested frontrunner at this point in time.
  2. I hope you realize now how to better introduce yourself into a character support thread for a character you don't support.
  3. I hope you've realized how ignoring people who call you out in a less than polite manner is not the way to go about things and that flaunting it only makes you look worse.
As for what I've learned out of all this...

We need Geno in Smash now more than ever, if only for Fatmanonice Fatmanonice

Honestly, just one more good reason for me to hit the 'Geno is real but I can't play as him button' just so I could see fatman's reaction and watch him play Geno. That alone would be worth it all.
 
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Spatulo

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My guess is that Wario and Waluigi were lucky to be included in Mario spin-offs thanks to other developers like Camelot and now they're staples in those kinds of games. The only hole I see in this theory is that Diddy Kong and my boy Funky Kong got in the Mario Kart games despite them being developed in-house, but Nintendo made damn sure to sweep them under the rug as well these days

That still hurts... :drsad:
It seems like they’ll occasionally use characters outside the “core” cast but it doesn’t seem like they want to stretch things too far. Heck, E Gadd has never been in a sports game and he’s the reason Super Mario Sunshine happened! Now it’s fair to say that things may be starting to ever so slightly look up, New Donk City referenced everything from Diddy Kong to Expresso the ****ing Ostrich (no Funky though oddly enough), we got the costumes of Diddy and the Waa’s, and they brought back Pauline of all characters, so hopefully this means moving forward they’ll be more willing to utilize the extended Mario cast
 

Midget Master

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Maybe a bit late on this discussion, but. Legit, Paper Mario is something that just should have happened by now. Geno not being in yet, I understand. That's a fan pick through and through, and if and when he makes it in, it will be because the fans stuck by him all that time. But Paper Mario was a strong series and it feels like it always got the shaft from Nintendo for some unfathomable reason.

The moveset potential is there, the stage potential, the music, it practically writes itself.
 

link2702

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Damn.....Going through the BK soundtrack again in smash ultimate and It just blows my mind that they're in smash bros.

I'm hoping I will feel the same when Geno finally makes it. But even then IDK if I'll feel the same strange feeling seeing banjo & Kazooie. Even though I've always have wanted Geno more, BK is just so surreal...they were the most "never ever gonna happen character" and yet here they are...
 

PokéfreakofBACON

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Reading the past several pages of people explaining why Geno deserves his spot in Smash Bros. was quite the experience.

Honestly, I'm probably one of the few people in this thread who didn't grow up with Super Mario RPG. I wouldn't play the game until sometime after it hit the Wii Virtual Console (though my first exposure to Geno himself was through his Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga cameo, even if I didn't know at the time). Even with that in mind, I still wholeheartedly agree that Geno would make a great addition to Smash, just based on his design, personality, and abilities in the game.

Still, having grown up with a different Mario RPG, it also makes me sad that my favorite character from that game doesn't have nearly the same kind of fan following that Geno has, and thus nowhere near the same chance at being a playable Smash character.

Vivian is lowkey my most wanted Smash character of all time, but I never talk about it because of how unlikely it is.
 

Griselda

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My first day on the smash boards and I'm already blown away. This is amazing. Bless you.
Green Clouds and Dolls by Dr. Sakurai.
I want Sakurai to read me a story. Even though it'd be in Japanese and I'd only understand like 9% of what he was saying.
 

Griselda

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So, is the idea now that if we don't get any news in the next few days, that we won't until like mid December?
 

Plank08

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Maybe a bit late on this discussion, but. Legit, Paper Mario is something that just should have happened by now. Geno not being in yet, I understand. That's a fan pick through and through, and if and when he makes it in, it will be because the fans stuck by him all that time. But Paper Mario was a strong series and it feels like it always got the shaft from Nintendo for some unfathomable reason.

The moveset potential is there, the stage potential, the music, it practically writes itself.
Exactly, Paper Mario’s my fourth most wanted and I’m still kind of confused how rosalina got in over him
 

Griselda

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Exactly, Paper Mario’s my fourth most wanted and I’m still kind of confused how rosalina got in over him
I think Nintendo in general doesn't really like Paper Mario all that much, as it represents the era of Mario in the SMW-64 days when the settings and character designs weren't as set in stone as they are post-NSMB, and they didn't really appreciate things not being as uniform as they are these days. You'll notice even with things like Mario Party, the further back you go the more unique the art direction gets. This is probably why the majority of SPM is set outside of the Mushroom World to avoid retaining the previous two games' interpretation of it, and why in SS/CS the enemies were all redesigned to look more like their NSMB designs; Nintendo decided that they'd try to make Paper Mario follow the NSMB standard, and given the reactions to SS/CS, they might actually just consider the series a lost cause at this point.
 

Axelocke

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I missed when Mario games had that unique factor to them. It's what gave the older games their charm! If they don't like writing a consistent storyline, at least give us something interesting, even if it's considered "non canon"! :luigimelee::mariomelee:
 
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Griselda

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So, after Geno gets in Smash, do you think he'll be featured in anything else going forward, or will he just end up as an Ice Climbers sort of thing?
 

Malo Mart

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I missed when Mario games had that unique factor to them. It's what gave the older games their charm! If they don't like writing a consistent storyline, at least give us something interesting, even if it's considered "non canon"! :luigimelee::mariomelee:
Odyssey seems like a step on the right direction at least. I kinda tend to think of 2012-2017 as the "dark age" of Mario, when most games in the franchise were heavily NSMB-ified. We seem to be past that, but I guess only time will tell.
So, after Geno gets in Smash, do you think he'll be featured in anything else going forward, or will he just end up as an Ice Climbers sort of thing?
Hopefully the former. Same goes for K. Rool and Banjo and Kazooie.
 

Griselda

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Sort of on the topic of moving past the NSMB-ification, and sort of on the topic of Paper Mario - Mario Tennis Aces feels almost exactly like a Paper Mario game with the middle of every chapter cut out.
 

Forthestarcapelad

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So, after Geno gets in Smash, do you think he'll be featured in anything else going forward, or will he just end up as an Ice Climbers sort of thing?
I've wondered about this myself, and... It still seems like a tricky situation.
I base this purely on the fact that his only real appearance (appearances if you count super star saga) has been in Mario RPG. Now, for a crossover game like smash, it shouldn't pose too much of an issue on a conceptual level because it's a crossover game in which he can be a guest character with other square reps, and just so happens to work as a character featured in a Mario game. Characters from different universes and companies are able to gel together because it's purposely meant to be a hodge podge, and there doesn't need to be an explanation for why they're there, or what they're doing.

Not as easy beyond something like smash though. For one thing, I have a hard time believing that Square would be willing to revive Geno to a substantial degree just because of his inclusion in smash. Cameos in other games? Maybe, and if he becomes more popular as a result of that, we may have something, but it's sort of a tall mountain to surmount from a somewhat more obscure, albeit beloved, side character who hasn't done much of anything in years (unless you count the mii costume) to doing... well, ANYTHING again. Secondly, he was conceived as a character important to the lore of Mario RPG, which is kind of an extension of the Mario series itself, meaning Square might need to work around that should they do anything with him, which I DO feel they could... again, assuming they'd care enough to even consider doing anything with him.

Then again, if Pit could come back from the dead with a full blown new game after Brawl happened, I don't see why Geno couldn't get the same treatment.
I guess it's not so much that I believe in an absolute "no", rather, I'd need to see more evidence that Geno is actually a thought in the minds of those at Square Enix to believe he has a future. Smash might just be the gateway to that though,
So, for now, I'm leaning to a PROBABLE no, but if he does get in to Smash, we may just get that turn around I'd need to have more faith.

I'm not educated on this stuff though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
 
D

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I’m wondering, if Sakurai is developing Geno, how exactly would he use Geno’s Mii costume as a resource making development quicker?
 
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RingJ5

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I've wondered about this myself, and... It still seems like a tricky situation.
I base this purely on the fact that his only real appearance (appearances if you count super star saga) has been in Mario RPG. Now, for a crossover game like smash, it shouldn't pose too much of an issue on a conceptual level because it's a crossover game in which he can be a guest character with other square reps, and just so happens to work as a character featured in a Mario game. Characters from different universes and companies are able to gel together because it's purposely meant to be a hodge podge, and there doesn't need to be an explanation for why they're there, or what they're doing.

Not as easy beyond something like smash though. For one thing, I have a hard time believing that Square would be willing to revive Geno to a substantial degree just because of his inclusion in smash. Cameos in other games? Maybe, and if he becomes more popular as a result of that, we may have something, but it's sort of a tall mountain to surmount from a somewhat more obscure, albeit beloved, side character who hasn't done much of anything in years (unless you count the mii costume) to doing... well, ANYTHING again. Secondly, he was conceived as a character important to the lore of Mario RPG, which is kind of an extension of the Mario series itself, meaning Square might need to work around that should they do anything with him, which I DO feel they could... again, assuming they'd care enough to even consider doing anything with him.

Then again, if Pit could come back from the dead with a full blown new game after Brawl happened, I don't see why Geno couldn't get the same treatment.
I guess it's not so much that I believe in an absolute "no", rather, I'd need to see more evidence that Geno is actually a thought in the minds of those at Square Enix to believe he has a future. Smash might just be the gateway to that though,
So, for now, I'm leaning to a PROBABLE no, but if he does get in to Smash, we may just get that turn around I'd need to have more faith.

I'm not educated on this stuff though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I could see the Smash DLC leading to a few extra playable appearances in the spinoffs like Kart, Party and the sports stuff, but I doubt he’d make it into another RPG/the mainline games.
 

Griselda

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I’m wondering, if Sakurai is developing Geno, how exactly would he use Geno’s Mii costume as a resource making development quicker?
Everything would need a touch-up if they planned on actually using the costume as a starting point, but most of the costume's model could be used as a readily available reference for making a new model, I suppose, if he didn't simply turn to the same art/sprites he used as a reference when making the costume. Though it's been pointed out that the costume is rather inaccurate in several places, so I'd personally prefer they didn't just slap a head/another hand on it and call it a day.
 

Forthestarcapelad

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I could see the Smash DLC leading to a few extra playable appearances in the spinoffs like Kart, Party and the sports stuff, but I doubt he’d make it into another RPG/the mainline games.
Seems reasonable now that you mention it. Given that Mario sports mix had those Final Fantasy reps, I suppose it is possible he could be a guest in those respects. I agree that it's certainly likelier than anything more ambitious like a new game. Heck, I'd be elated to have him even in the Mario spin offs.
 

Shadow Star DX

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I know I'm a bit late joining in, but in regards to the subject about our personal reasons for wanting Geno in Smash, you guys pretty much summed up many of my own reasons. I can't say I have an emotional reason for wanting him in, unlike many of you, which I admire. I just really, really enjoyed SMRPG as a kid, and Geno just happened to be my favorite character from the game; a game that was already filled with fun, unique characters that were totally unlike what we'd seen from the Mario series up to that point.

But if there's one reason I want Geno is Smash, more than anything, it's because I've always felt that Geno is one of the most unfortunate video game characters in history, because of the ownership situation he's in; and that him being in Smash would be only way he could escape that and make a meaningful comeback, even if only for the moment. That is something he DESERVES.

I don't think people realize how unfortunate he is. Sure, in comparison, you have characters like Banjo, who ended up in a cruddy situation, owned by a bunch of knuckle-heads who don't understand the appeal of his N64 games; but at least Banjo always had the potential to make a comeback. Microsoft always has the option to remaster his games, or make Banjo-Threeie or use him in anything. He may have made his name on the N64, but he's not a Nintendo character, he was never bound to it.

Geno, on the other hand, is a Mario character, owned by Square-Enix. All these years, and I can't help but feel angry that it still remains that way. Even if a Square-Enix developer designed him; anyone who has ever played SMRPG, recognizes him as a MARIO character. He was designed for a Mario game, to fit into the Mario aesthetic, designed with lore that makes him part of the Mario universe because of his association with Star Road. He is bound to the Mario franchise. He IS a MARIO CHARACTER, DAMMIT. And yet, he hasn't been able to be a part of the Mario franchise all these years, all because Square-Enix kept the rights to him. Rights to a character they can NEVER USE for their own games because everyone and their dog who know who Geno is, recognize him as a Mario character, and he would be blatantly out-of-place anywhere else. They have nothing to gain by owning him or lose by selling him to Nintendo, and yet they persist on keeping him in this limbo, all while Nintendo (seemingly) doesn't care enough to do anything about it. So instead of Geno getting to star in the other Mario RPG games that he rightfully belongs in, getting to kart race and play sports with the other Mario characters, or getting invited to Mario's parties... he's locked away, gathering dust, neglected. Everything interesting and awesome about him, and all the potential he has, wasted. Only an absolute miracle can save him from that hell.

That's what Smash is though. It's a miracle. It's a once-in-a-lifetime game that has already done the impossible and broke down the barriers, uniting video game worlds that we never imagined in our wildest dreams would crossover, acting as a godly celebration of video games as a whole, and is massive, passionate love letter from Mashiro Sakurai to anyone who has ever held a video game controller. Even if Geno doesn't make it in, god bless that absolute madman for what he's created. But because Smash has brought down those barriers, this really does feel like Geno's last chance to ever escape from his prison. The moment Square-Enix got involved in this, the planets aligned and that thousand-year door opened for Geno; that small door that he can barely seem to make it through, but we've all been reaching through with our support and optimism, hoping to pull him out. All the hope we've held, all the hype that even got Sakurai himself a little interested in Geno, has led up to this defining point.

If Geno doesn't make it into Ultimate, I can't see him ever making it into Smash, even if there is a future game. That door will slam shut, and we'll probably never see Geno appear in any video game ever again. Lloyd, Sora, Doomguy, Crash, Hayabusa? Yeah, you know what, those are all wonderful characters to have in Smash; and even though my fellow Geno supporters will probably hate me for saying this, I'm willing to admit that any one of those characters is more fitting to be in Smash over Geno, for how recognizable, popular and beloved they, and the games they hail from, are. But those characters, all of them, regardless of if they get into Smash or not, have a future. Geno, as the way things are, doesn't. That's why I choose to support him over all the other characters in the end. Him being in Smash would be the celebration that his character, and the SMRPG Series as a whole, deserves; and maybe even open the door for him to appear in future Mario games. It may even have a positive effect on the SMRPG Series going forward (and lord knows it needs it, considering how far off the rails Paper Mario has gone, and the weird place Mario & Luigi are in right now with AlphaDream's bankruptcy).

Ironically enough, I guess that ended up being an emotional reason anyway, go figure. And I apologize if it just sounded like I was venting at some points. But that's the reason I'm in this, and why I can't tolerate it when people needlessly hate on Geno and his supporters, all because they don't "get" Geno. We're all invested in this for our own reasons, some of us emotionally; so it's not easy to see where we're coming from, because you have to be able to see it through our eyes to do so. What you see as an irrelevant, overhyped side-character in your eyes, is also a long-lost friend to us, who we want to see get the justice he deserves, after all these years...
 
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Griselda

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I know I'm a bit late joining in, but in regards to the subject about our personal reasons for wanting Geno in Smash, you guys pretty much summed up many of my own reasons. I can't say I have an emotional reason for wanting him in, unlike many of you, which I admire. I just really, really enjoyed SMRPG as a kid, and Geno just happened to be my favorite character from the game; a game that was already filled with fun, unique characters that were totally unlike what we'd seen from the Mario series up to that point.

But if there's one reason I want Geno is Smash, more than anything, it's because I've always felt that Geno is one of the most unfortunate video game characters in history, because of the ownership situation he's in; and that him being in Smash would be only way he could escape that and make a meaningful comeback, even if only for the moment. That is something he DESERVES.

I don't think people realize how unfortunate he is. Sure, in comparison, you have characters like Banjo, who ended up in a cruddy situation, owned by a bunch of knuckle-heads who don't understand the appeal of his N64 games; but at least Banjo always had the potential to make a comeback. Microsoft always has the option to remaster his games, or make Banjo-Threeie or use him in anything. He may have made his name on the N64, but he's not a Nintendo character, he was never bound to it.

Geno, on the other hand, is a Mario character, owned by Square-Enix. All these years, and I can't help but feel angry that it still remains that way. Even if a Square-Enix developer designed him; anyone who has ever played SMRPG, recognizes him as a MARIO character. He was designed for a Mario game, to fit into the Mario aesthetic, designed with lore that makes him part of the Mario universe because of his association with Star Road. He is bound to the Mario franchise. He IS a MARIO CHARACTER, DAMMIT. And yet, he hasn't been able to be a part of the Mario franchise all these years, all because Square-Enix kept the rights to him. Rights to a character they can NEVER USE for their own games because everyone and their dog who know who Geno is, recognize him as a Mario character, and he would be blatantly out-of-place anywhere else. They have nothing to gain by owning him or lose by selling him to Nintendo, and yet they persist on keeping him in this limbo, all while Nintendo (seemingly) doesn't care enough to do anything about it. So instead of Geno getting to star in the other Mario RPG games that he rightfully belongs in, getting to kart race and play sports with the other Mario characters, or getting invited to Mario's parties... he's locked away, gathering dust, neglected. Everything interesting and awesome about him, and all the potential he has, wasted. Only an absolute miracle can save him from that hell.

That's what Smash is though. It's a miracle. It's a once-in-a-lifetime game that has already done the impossible and broke down the barriers, uniting video game worlds that we never imagined in our wildest dreams would crossover, acting as a godly celebration of video games as a whole, and is massive, passionate love letter from Mashiro Sakurai to anyone who has ever held a video game controller. Even if Geno doesn't make it in, god bless that absolute madman for what he's created. But because Smash has brought down those barriers, this really does feel like Geno's last chance to ever escape from his prison. The moment Square-Enix got involved in this, the planets aligned and that thousand-year door opened for Geno; that small door that he can barely seem to make it through, but we've all been reaching through with our support and optimism, hoping to pull him out. All the hope we've held, all the hype that even got Sakurai himself a little interested in Geno, has led up to this defining point.

If Geno doesn't make it into Ultimate, I can't see him ever making it into Smash, even if there is a future game. That door will slam shut, and we'll probably never see Geno appear in any video game ever again. Lloyd, Sora, Doomguy, Crash, Hayabusa? Yeah, you know what, those are all wonderful characters to have in Smash; and even though my fellow Geno supporters will probably hate me for saying this, I'm willing to admit that any one of those characters is more fitting to be in Smash over Geno, for how recognizable, popular and beloved they, and the games they hail from, are. But those characters, all of them, regardless of if they get into Smash or not, have a future. Geno, as the way things are, doesn't. That's why I choose to support him over all the other characters in the end. Him being in Smash would be the celebration that his character, and the SMRPG Series as a whole, deserves; and maybe even open the door for him to appear in future Mario games. It may even have a positive effect on the SMRPG Series going forward (and lord knows it needs it, considering how far off the rails Paper Mario has gone, and the weird place Mario & Luigi are in right now with AlphaDream's bankruptcy).

Ironically enough, I guess that ended up being an emotional reason anyway, go figure. And I apologize if it just sounded like I was venting at some points. But that's the reason I'm in this, and why I can't tolerate it when people needlessly hate on Geno and his supporters, all because they don't "get" Geno. We're all invested in this for our own reasons, some of us emotionally; so it's not easy to see where we're coming from, because you have to be able to see it through our eyes to do so. What you see as an irrelevant, overhyped side-character in your eyes, is also a long-lost friend to us, who we want to see get the justice he deserves, after all these years...
I don't think Geno would be in a worse situation than he already is if he doesn't end up in Ultimate as a fighter. After all, it'd been ages since he was even acknowledged at all, with there being a gap of several years between SMRPG and his brief Mario & Luigi cameo, and then silence for ages - but then he got the costume and explicit recognition regarding it in Smash 4. And while plenty of people aren't very happy with him simply being a still-image Spirit in Ultimate, the point that should be taken away is that he went from nothing for several years to a downloadable add-on representation, to having representation in the base game of Ultimate. It might not feel like it, but he's actually been making steady progress moving up the ladder.
 
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