Zinith
Yoshi is Thicc in S P I R I T
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Wait, hold on...None of y'all are true fans and I have absolute proof.
You thought I wouldn't notice Kimetsu no Yaiba tab there
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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior
- Thread starter PsychoIncarnate
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You thought I wouldn't notice Kimetsu no Yaiba tab there
False Sense
Ad Astra Per Aspera
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For posterity, I should probably clarify that I actually study fandoms. Majored in media studies and did my thesis on the Smash fandom, believe it or not (so remember kids, you can graduate university by just ranting about video games : p).
I don't bring that up to boast or to dismiss you, just that I kinda already know basic stuff like this. : /
So instead of a dictionary definition, I'm going to offer a basic definition provided by media fandom scholar Mark Duffet, as used in his book "Understanding Fandom." (You might have heard this one before, there's a Smash video essay that uses it).
Fan: a self-identified enthusiast, devotee or follower of a particular media genre, text, person or activity.
There's no denying you're correct in that being a fan is often associated with intense devotion, so much so that it has historically been looked down upon and feared as an unhealthy obsession. And I'm aware of the difference between liking something and declaring oneself a fan. But I fundamentally disagree that it is a requirement to outwardly perform fandom in order to identify as a fan.
You seem focused on the "saying I'm a fan" part, so maybe this will clarify: verbally declaring yourself to be a fan doesn't automatically make you a fan, but believing yourself to be a fan does. As you yourself demonstrated:
You're not a Dungeon Tales fan because you don't consider yourself a Dungeon Tales fan. Likewise, I would not call you a Dungeon Tales fan just because you like it.
But you are a SMRPG fan because you believe you are.
Does that help?
D
Deleted member
Guest
On a serious note, I think we're all confusing the fine (ambiguous) line between being a fan of something and being a fanboy (or fangirl) of something. One is nebulous and doesn't really need to be brought up in conversations and the other shows more overt actions and loud displays in their circle. Both are necessary for businesses to thrive, and both are necessary to support Geno I believe, otherwise, I sure as Hell wouldn't be here. Those are my two cents.
Think of it like this. I only seriously played one Bomberman game in my whole life, but he is easily my most wanted character in Smash. Are you going to call me not a true Bomberman fan to my face even if I only play that one game years apart? It's like talking down on a Geno supporter even if they never played Super Mario RPG. Who cares?
Think of it like this. I only seriously played one Bomberman game in my whole life, but he is easily my most wanted character in Smash. Are you going to call me not a true Bomberman fan to my face even if I only play that one game years apart? It's like talking down on a Geno supporter even if they never played Super Mario RPG. Who cares?
It's pretty alright. Only on Episode 7 right now, but it's weirdly engaging to watch even if I'm not too big on the writing.Wait, hold on...
You thought I wouldn't notice Kimetsu no Yaiba tab there
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Well you can compare Geno and the ICs as characters, they are both fairly insignificant characters... but you can't compare them as inclusions. Or at least, you can't equate one to the other. Saying we can get Geno because we got Ice Climbers is untrue. We possibly can get Geno, and we have gotten Ice Climbers, but the routes to inclusion between the two differ vastly, and having one similarity, being "insignificance", doesn't push the entirety of their distinct circumstances aside.
On one hand, you have Geno, who will have to get in because of his merit - his extreme demand. He's not getting in any other way, but should it happen, he will get in because he earned the inclusion. That's the typical method, where the character gets in based on factors favoured for Smash: popularity, recency, impact, prevalence, etc. You would probably dub this as "deservedness", you seem to like using that term.
Ice Climbers, on the other hand, did not get in for any of those reasons. They got in simply because Sakurai carved out a spot deliberately for an old, dormant NES IP, much in the same way he designates a spot for a Pokemon from the most recent gen before deciding that Pokemon. Like I said, god, probably three or four posts ago by now, Ice Climbers got to bypass all the normal prerequisites, including, as I said, "deservedness". So like we don't expect a Gen 1-6 Pokemon to be eligible for the Gen 7 Pokemon slot (let alone a character from a different series), expecting any character other than an old, dormant NES-era retro to have been able to get in under a spot designed exclusively for that type of character is illogical.
And as I've said almost every time, without a single acknowledgment on your end, the door to this kind of retro inclusion closed with Brawl, if not earlier. So it doesn't even seem to be an option anymore, regardless of if it applied to Geno or not. So even right there, the comparison should be over.
However, even were it still in effect, if we had gotten new retros in 4 and Ultimate (not wtf characters, that's something else), Geno would still be incomparable, as the free pass only extends to 80s retros. They are the only ones in this situation who get to eschew the inclusion process through which other characters are still screened. Were Sakurai to create another category not subject to normal evaluation, such as "puppets from 90s rpgs" then sure, Geno could get in that way. But in absence of such a thing, there is no basis of comparison. Simply being "insignificant" does not account for free rides.
And as to your last point, newcomers and veterans are held to completely different standards, comparing the two is almost apples and oranges. You also did it with the Kid Icarus veterans, but once a character gets in, if they're not simply grandfathered through the entire series (as most are), their standards for re-inclusion are certainly more lax. To that end, we probably would've received ICs in Ultimate regardless of their demand, given not only how Sakurai obviously wanted them to remain in the series, but they were even functional in the Wii U version of 4, which Ultimate clearly borrows heavily from.
This is pretty much the extent of what I can say. If you want to continuing ignoring every factor behind the unique inclusion of the ICs apart from how an "insignificant" character wound up on the roster, and use that one breadcrumb to tie it to Geno... then I suppose we'll leave things at an impasse.
MondoMega
Smash Apprentice
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Oh wow; Alpha Dream declared bankruptcy.
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20191002-00010002-teikokudb-ind
Some original Super Mario RPG staff members were still working there; so I hope everyone working there can land on their feet. How does this thread feel about this?
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20191002-00010002-teikokudb-ind
Some original Super Mario RPG staff members were still working there; so I hope everyone working there can land on their feet. How does this thread feel about this?
helloiamhere
Smash Journeyman
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- Aug 21, 2014
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Somewhat unrelated, but the Mario and Luigi creators just declared bankruptcy 
edit: beaten
With that news, a real Paper Mario 3 never happening, and SMRPG is legal limbo I wonder what the future holds for Mario RPGS.
edit: beaten
With that news, a real Paper Mario 3 never happening, and SMRPG is legal limbo I wonder what the future holds for Mario RPGS.
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EricTheGamerman
Smash Master
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Oof... that's a damn shame on Alpha Dream. I really expected them to be working on some Switch project, but I guess it's just been a string of poorer and poorer release for them since Dream Team failed to captivate people. I'm surprised Nintendo isn't stepping in to do something, but I also don't know the details.
It's worth pointing out that Intelligent Systems actually did very little of the heavy lifting on Three Houses since Koei Tecmo did the vast majority of the work, so our hopes might rest on a Paper Mario game on Switch for Mario RPGs. But definitely not a good day for the Mario RPG world...
It's worth pointing out that Intelligent Systems actually did very little of the heavy lifting on Three Houses since Koei Tecmo did the vast majority of the work, so our hopes might rest on a Paper Mario game on Switch for Mario RPGs. But definitely not a good day for the Mario RPG world...
I know the closure of studios happens quite a bit in the industry, but it still sucks to see them go under. Isn't Alphadream composed of people who worked on SMRPG?
ivanlerma
Smash Master
that means no more Mario & Luigi,
Datboigeno
Smash Lord
That's incredibly depressing.
MisterMike
Smash Champion
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Speaking of Game of Thrones, have you seen MauLer's videos on the matter? He's done videos on episodes 3 through 5 and while I'm not a big GoT guy, I'd say they're really good.
GOTTEM!None of y'all are true fans and I have absolute proof.
MamaLuigi123456
Smash Champion
this.... actually explains a lot. No wonder the last two games they've released were remakes mostly cobbled together with older assets. They've probably been on the edge for a while.
Ovaltine
Smash Master
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Wow, that news about AlphaDream doesn't bode well. PM as it used to be is gone, M&L is now dead unless Nintendo does something about it, and who knows if SMRPG will ever be revisited?
I wonder if this is a bad sign for Geno's chances. If the Mario RPGs aren't performing to the standard Nintendo likes, would they turn a blind eye to any Mario RPG representation in Smash beyond what we already have? Would they add Geno in an effort to bring a new era for the RPGs? Would they still do it despite it all for the fans?
I dunno. It doesn't look so hot.
EDIT: Granted, it also explains why the SSS remake didn't have any of the SE cameo stuff, Geno included. AD probably couldn't afford it, even if they wanted to, even if the price wasn't so bad.
I wonder if this is a bad sign for Geno's chances. If the Mario RPGs aren't performing to the standard Nintendo likes, would they turn a blind eye to any Mario RPG representation in Smash beyond what we already have? Would they add Geno in an effort to bring a new era for the RPGs? Would they still do it despite it all for the fans?
I dunno. It doesn't look so hot.
EDIT: Granted, it also explains why the SSS remake didn't have any of the SE cameo stuff, Geno included. AD probably couldn't afford it, even if they wanted to, even if the price wasn't so bad.
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False Sense
Ad Astra Per Aspera
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I mean, I could be wrong, but I'd say Banjo is a decent indicator that having a prospective future isn't as big a deal as having a genuine demand, at least as far as Smash characters go.
I think there's a fair chance Geno would have at least been on the table.
Isaac: Venus Adept
Smash Lord
Yikes I thought they were hiring for their next game
I hope you guys realize that with Alpha Dream closing its doors, every single Mario RPG series under the sun is now either dead or isn't an RPG anymore. Man, it ****ing sucks to be a Mario RPG fan right now
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helloiamhere
Smash Journeyman
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- Aug 21, 2014
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Unfortunately most of the staff is too deep into FE (either Heros or mainline), so things like WarioWare and especially PM are being left in the dust.
Geno Boost
Smash Master
I am from UAE but the problem is in Middle East it’s extremely rare to see someone who bought PC or Sony consoles instead Nintendo consoles so any Nintendo fan there is extremely rare, many people see that anything related to Nintendo is childish I don’t think anyone knows what is SMRPG even if they are gamers.
However I only know 2 Middle East Geno fans on the internet, one of them being a person we used to draw together alot of Geno comics during Miiverse days the funny thing is I didn’t know that person was Arabian like me until years later after the miiverse shutdown which has surprised me a lot we were both drawing a lot of Geno’s back then lol
The other one is someone from twitter I just found out a month ago and follows operation starfall he even had the operation starfall Twitter up to his bio
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EricTheGamerman
Smash Master
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Honestly, I could see Nintendo de-emphasizing Mario RPGs at this stage. It's clear that they don't really know what direction to take them in since the last really solid one was probably Bowser's Inside Story 10 years ago, and they've just all kind of bombed to varying degrees since then. Now that Nintendo actually has a whole host of Japanese developers on board the Switch, with the likes of Square Enix and Atlus even producing some exclusives, and they also have other JRPG series made in house that are trending upward and becoming more mainstream like Xenoblade and Fire Emblem, it just kind of would be the time to take a break from them/retire them. Hell, they've got a Mario SRPG that works if they want to make a Mario + Rabbids follow-up too.
Especially since I think Miyamoto's hard line stance against original Mario characters and push back against their existence has contributed to the overall issues with these titles.
Mario RPGs might just get benched for much of this generation unless they've got some relaunch or attempt at a more traditional one somewhere in development.
Especially since I think Miyamoto's hard line stance against original Mario characters and push back against their existence has contributed to the overall issues with these titles.
Mario RPGs might just get benched for much of this generation unless they've got some relaunch or attempt at a more traditional one somewhere in development.
Ace C.R.O.S.S.
Smash Ace
What is Michael Jackson doing here?Wait, hold on...
You thought I wouldn't notice Kimetsu no Yaiba tab there
ZelDan
Smash Master
What happened to Alphadream is unfortunate, though I don't think it means the death of Mario RPGs. if there were to be a SMRPG2, the bigger issue there is SE I think, not Alphadream (though maybe alphadream would have neede dto be the ones to work with SE, I dunno). maybe Nintendo has seriously noticed the complaints about the last couple paper Mario games and will actually take them into account?
hell, whose to say we might not get some Mario RPG different different from any of the 3 types of RPGs we're familiar with now?
hell, whose to say we might not get some Mario RPG different different from any of the 3 types of RPGs we're familiar with now?
EricTheGamerman
Smash Master
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I mean, they contributed very little to Three Houses in the grand scheme of things, so they're not primarily focused there. Heroes is a fair point as I didn't know they were directly behind that one. It's possible that does take all of their resources and was why Koei Tecmo was brought in to do the brunt of the work on Three Houses. Still, it's worth pointing out that they don't seem to have any other projects in development for Switch and the last original game was Color Splash in 2016 (WarioWare Gold is kind of an odd one that builds on existing content in the series and Shadows of Valentia was a remake), so with how little they've also contributed to Three Houses, I'd like to think there's something bigger in the works at Intelligent Systems.
That said, that was my same logic with Alpha Dream for ages, and we see what became of them... Also, I wonder what happened to them hiring people to work on a Switch game and if anything will come of that, or if their inability to transition to HD and development troubles is what led to them declaring bankruptcy.
Ovaltine
Smash Master
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The one and only bright side I see to this is the demand for SMRPG to be revisited and the demand for Paper Mario to return to form have both been at an all-time high. The death of M&L is a sad one, but (apart from the employees working there, there is no bright side there and I REALLY hope they can find work again soon) it could be a blessing in disguise for these other two Mario RPG brands. A change of hands and a blank slate may be what the Mario RPGs need right now, something new, something entirely different. The demand is there; it just has to be utilized properly.
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
Wait, hold on...
You thought I wouldn't notice Kimetsu no Yaiba tab there
Wondering if Annie is ok
MamaLuigi123456
Smash Champion
I JUST REALIZED WE’RE LOSING YOKO SHIMOMURA’S MARIO MUSIC
Datboigeno
Smash Lord
I think that's maybe a bit of stretch. I don't really believe the lack of success of a developer that's been making the Mario and Luigi series would have any bearing on SMRPG which hasn't been touched by Nintendo other than re-releases since the 90s and was only ever given a super brief cameo by AD. Realistically if Nintendo wants to make a Mario RPG of some kind they will find a developer to make it. Geno in Smash is so divorced from the financial success (or lack thereof) of Mario and Luigi that it really doesn't seem interconnected.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I already said I understand the saving slot and I now see that Geno is not a retro characters compared to the ice climbers. The retro didn’t close at Brawl there’s duck hunt. And the closest thing getting a retro rep is Simon Belmont. And of course, not really getting why I said the significance over and over again. Of course being “insignificant” doesn’t count a free ride. There’s literally no reason why they should be in smash aside from that special nes slot for the ice climbers which is not that important as you think. I’m still still not convinced with your silly mentality random 80’s characters shouldn’t get the same bull as Geno because of a “SpEcIal SlOt”. It’s just an NES character. Just because it has a reserved slot doesn’t mean it’s special and neither is a Pokémon rep like incineroar. I hope it’s worth getting that piece of “breadcrumb” to tell how meaningless this specific NES slot. Whatever you say then.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
Nintendo didn’t touch SMRPG except for Smash, re-releases, and a cameo. Nintendo can simply ask Square to get involved again. It’s not like they need the old staff members back.
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PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
Should I try and make the Geno sprite a little "cuter"
ivanlerma
Smash Master
Go Ahead, the right sprite looks pretty good.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Reminder that M&L is owned by Nintendo, not AlphaDream.
Dynamic Worlok
Shunted into the bad timeline
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I love Miyamoto to death. The guy's a Goddamn hero, but that stance is so inexplicably stupid. At this point I think it's pretty impossible to deny that the main draw of these games are the original characters and the exotic Locales. The fact that after 20 years people keep asking for geno and mallow is proof positive of that.
But nah, let's have more baby doctor daisy and pink gold peach. That well hasn't dried up yet.
These kinds of statements need context, or people will think she died or they're removing it.
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Vector Victor
Smash Lord
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- May 27, 2019
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The mobile Mario Kart has babies on the starting roster but not Luigi. Are they insane?
I will never understand Nintendo's insistence on making recolors/babies/metals/MarioVer23 priority on their Kart rosters over established actual characters.
ivanlerma
Smash Master
They Owned The Characters that appear, but i fear they don't own the ones originally appearing in the series.
SpiritOfRuin
Smash Ace
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- May 12, 2019
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Oh great. I had a terrible day yesterday and get on here to this news about an unsure future for Mario RPGs. To be honest, I haven't really played any Paper Mario's since the older ones (as in on N64 lol) but have wanted to play the one that was on Wii for awhile. I played Bowser's inside story and dream team and loved both and really want to play other M&L games because they're fun. I do miss having an actual party like you did in SMRPG tho (even if there were only 5 characters to choose from).
I guess at least I got some good sword and shield news with 18 gyms and potentially more user-friendly ways of making competitively viable Pokemon not that I won't still be breeding out the wazoo. And I have the Livestream Friday to be probably disappointed by lol, but I'm still looking forward to it.
Glad to see some people are staying in good spirits about the situation and are hopeful for the future of Mario RPGs. I, however, am not. We all know how Nintendo will drop IPs without batting an eye and I see no reason to expect any different from M&L at least maybe Paper Mario and a new kind of Mario RPG is possible tho but I don't consider it likely. I do think that this does not impact Geno's Smash chances whatsoever though, as some have pointed out, so I guess that's a neutral thing at least.
I guess at least I got some good sword and shield news with 18 gyms and potentially more user-friendly ways of making competitively viable Pokemon not that I won't still be breeding out the wazoo. And I have the Livestream Friday to be probably disappointed by lol, but I'm still looking forward to it.
Glad to see some people are staying in good spirits about the situation and are hopeful for the future of Mario RPGs. I, however, am not. We all know how Nintendo will drop IPs without batting an eye and I see no reason to expect any different from M&L at least maybe Paper Mario and a new kind of Mario RPG is possible tho but I don't consider it likely. I do think that this does not impact Geno's Smash chances whatsoever though, as some have pointed out, so I guess that's a neutral thing at least.
Well well, the absence of anything new from Alpha Dream is finally explained. To be honest, I was not that big of a fan of M&L games. I did enjoy the very first game, but I could not get into the later ones.
Now as sad as all this is, I don't think the RPG's are dead in the water. Shelved? Absolutely. Nintendo could do a collaboration with a well known RPG company to make a new Mario RPG, but I am drawing a blank on who that could be...HMMMMmmmm???
Now as sad as all this is, I don't think the RPG's are dead in the water. Shelved? Absolutely. Nintendo could do a collaboration with a well known RPG company to make a new Mario RPG, but I am drawing a blank on who that could be...HMMMMmmmm???
StarLight42
Smash Lord
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- Jul 17, 2014
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Can’t say I care about AlphaDream’s bankruptcy. I feel bad for the employees but that’s about as far as i’ll go. I haven’t played an enjoyable Mario and Luigi game since 2009’s Bowser Inside Story.
I even bought the Superstar Saga remake and hated it for how it homogenized so much of the original game’s personality. Didn’t even bother with the BIS remake.
Now Nintendo has zero excuse to not make a proper sequel to Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door.
Even so, I can’t wait till we get Sticker Star 3 next year!!!!!
I even bought the Superstar Saga remake and hated it for how it homogenized so much of the original game’s personality. Didn’t even bother with the BIS remake.
Now Nintendo has zero excuse to not make a proper sequel to Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door.
Even so, I can’t wait till we get Sticker Star 3 next year!!!!!
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D
Deleted member
Guest
I would really hope Nintendo learned their lesson after Square/SMRPG to acquire ownership of characters made for use in the Mario universe. Not like they were ever gonna put top tier characters like Prince Peasley into Mario Kart, but come on.
I will agree that Mario and Luigi fell off after the first one. Partners in Time felt like an excuse to canonize the baby characters and was really confusing with the 4 button/2 screen gameplay. Didn't get too far into Bowser's Inside Story, but everyone seems to love it - I should keep going on it sometime.
In general it just feels like they had a winning formula with Superstar Saga and tried to add some new feature or gimmick instead of just sticking with what works. I get that a little innovation here or there keeps your series from becoming Pokemon, but Mario and Luigi really takes it to the extreme.
Glitch-EGamer
Smash Lord
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Well, I for one love the M&L series because anything besides the boring a** "narratives" of mainline Mario is great.
Seriously speaking though, as if I wasn't already, the M&L games, in my opinion, are worthy successors to SMRPG. They have personality, charm, and owo, what's this? A UNIQUE GAMEPLAY MECHANIC THAT MAKES IT GOOD!? SIGN ME UP! The original characters like Popple, Fawful, and so many others were great additions to Mario's story and it actually really frustrates me how under appreciated they are. Just like SMRPG.
These games may not be a personal favorite to you guys but it is WAY better than a good 80% of the "quality games" the Mario series shells out every year.
Note: I don't think they used it to "canonize" the babies, seeing as to the fact that Yoshi's Island had done that years prior.
Follow-up to the prior statement, I personally think it lost its charm with Paper Jam. It had lost all originality by crossover Mario with...other Mario..
Seriously speaking though, as if I wasn't already, the M&L games, in my opinion, are worthy successors to SMRPG. They have personality, charm, and owo, what's this? A UNIQUE GAMEPLAY MECHANIC THAT MAKES IT GOOD!? SIGN ME UP! The original characters like Popple, Fawful, and so many others were great additions to Mario's story and it actually really frustrates me how under appreciated they are. Just like SMRPG.
These games may not be a personal favorite to you guys but it is WAY better than a good 80% of the "quality games" the Mario series shells out every year.
Note: I don't think they used it to "canonize" the babies, seeing as to the fact that Yoshi's Island had done that years prior.
Follow-up to the prior statement, I personally think it lost its charm with Paper Jam. It had lost all originality by crossover Mario with...other Mario..
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