Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Sour Supreme]

Insofar as it's kept him eligible right now for a pass that will (presumably) be all third-parties, sure. And I'm not even saying likely, I'm just saying eligible. But you have to weigh that against the fact that prior to the moment we find ourselves in, there have been a litany of opportunities that probably would've already seen him included had he been first-party. Starting, I'd guess, with Brawl.

In short, if he was first-party he wouldn't get in right now, true enough, but he also would've already been added. So it'd be moot.

It is strange how this has all panned out. Solely first party characters seem to be the least probable at the moment. But that's of course subject to change.

 

[Opossum]

You'd think they'd focus on the characters that are actually popular in FE:H then instead of putting in the lords no one cares about

Literally the only Fire Emblem character in Smash that doesn't consistently rank within Heroes' top ten is male Corrin. You're objectively wrong here.

I'll throw out an unpopular opinion here:

Adopters of Fire Emblem post-Awakening are not Fire Emblem fans in the slightest and, I'll argue, have less capacity than most to be interested in Smash Bros. I get people who want to stick with a franchise they love even after Awakening and Fates, but people who got into the franchise because of Awakening's baby mode gameplay or "plot" don't know Marth from Adam and would hate a more classic Fire Emblem experience, which is likely why Shadows of Valentia didn't do well (it also happens to be my favorite recent Fire Emblem). I'm just not convinced that kind of gamer is the kind that Smash is going to appeal to or sell copies of Fire Emblem to.

This really ain't it, chief. I started with Awakening and the only main series games I haven't touched are Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light (which had a more modern objectively better remake), Gaiden (see SDatBoL), the Tellius duology (scarcity/emulation issues), and Fates: Revelation (admittedly just lack of interest lol). Hell, Shadow Dragon's in my top three favorites. That and excluding people based on when they got into the series is horribly toxic gatekeeping, not an "unpopular opinion."

That and I wouldn't call SoV unsuccessful, either, given the context. Besides the obvious case of Nintendo saying it met expectations, it was a remake (so sales in Japan were expected to be lower), the third (technically fifth) Fire Emblem on the 3DS (leading to potential fatigue), and a game released on the 3DS after the Switch came out (which is easy to see why that's a drawback). The fact that sales estimates put it at about 700-800k considering all of those factors is honestly kind of impressive.

 

[N3ON]

It's funny because the "real" FE fans probably spend less money on FE than the new "fake" fans.

 

[False Sense]

You lose me the moment you try to define what a "real" fan is.

If someone says they're a fan of something, then they're a fan. The experience of being a fan lies with the individual; you can't take that away from them.

 

[Firox]

Literally the only Fire Emblem character in Smash that doesn't consistently rank within Heroes' top ten is male Corrin. You're objectively wrong here.

This really ain't it, chief. I started with Awakening and the only main series games I haven't touched are Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light (which had a more modern objectively better remake), Gaiden (see SDatBoL), the Tellius duology (scarcity/emulation issues), and Fates: Revelation (admittedly just lack of interest lol). Hell, Shadow Dragon's in my top three favorites. That and excluding people based on when they got into the series is horribly toxic gatekeeping, not an "unpopular opinion."

That and I wouldn't call SoV unsuccessful, either, given the context. Besides the obvious case of Nintendo saying it met expectations, it was a remake (so sales in Japan were expected to be lower), the third (technically fifth) Fire Emblem on the 3DS (leading to potential fatigue), and a game released on the 3DS after the Switch came out (which is easy to see why that's a drawback). The fact that sales estimates put it at about 700-800k considering all of those factors is honestly kind of impressive.

You haven't played the Tellius duology? Man, I strongly recommend you get a chance to play those. Both of them together are easily tied for my favorites alongside Awakening. Ike's story is arguably the most epic and satisfying of the whole franchise, plus the climax of Radiant Dawn features the largest army/number of playable units in a single game that I know of.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Fire Emblem isn't a bad or unpopular series, it just isn't for you and that's OK.

 

[Ovaltine]

My personal quota of whether you're a fan of FE or not is this:

1) You have to like Fire Emblem.
2) uh
3) um
4) buh

That's it. I know, they're strict guidelines, but if you don't follow these guidelines, you are NOT a fan!

 

[catsforlife1]

I honestly do think these next dlc will be sold individually. Mainly because when it got announced at the bottom it said they will sell them individual.

 

[Deleted member]

It's the most common excuse because it's the actual reason, giving literally any other answer would be the excuse.


Well it is in the top 50 best selling NES games, and it sold 1.5 million copies, but I agree Sakurai could've added any number of other NES characters instead. Like I said, he tried to add (at least) three others before settling on ICs. But it just goes to show he was looking for representation of a time period instead of a specific character.


You do realize that the majority of the Kid Icarus characters were added right after Uprising, right? It's not like he added them in Ultimate. They weren't irrelevant then. Pit is a different story, the path Sakurai carves out for retros won't be of use for Geno. Yes Geno is a retro character by our standards, but by Sakurai's, the cutoff seems to be the 80s.

More importantly though, the "retro rep" doesn't even seem to be a thing anymore, and hasn't been for two, maybe even three games. So that door is closed anyway, even if Geno could fit through it. Using those characters as precedent is entirely flawed, because what lead to their inclusion is a huge exception to the standard process, especially for third-parties.


I would agree with that, but clearly Sakurai doesn't. Or I would at least posit that "retro", at this point, is probably up to... even Gamecube days, so he could stand to widen the parameters. But what we think doesn't really matter, because we don't pick the characters.


Your list still isn't complete, because while you only listed three hindrances, there is the additional one I mentioned: being third-party. Were Geno first-party, he probably would've been included back in Brawl. In that diagram, and not a partial one, none of the current cast share the centre.


Those aren't real hindrances, pitch 'em. Those examples are like saying Geno can't get in because his real name is unpronounceable.


You've again gone back to evaluating things based on a single hindrance I see. Banjo also was greatly hindered by being third-party, were he not he would've been included long ago as well, but between Banjo and Geno, one actually has successful eponymous series they lead; it's a whole different level in terms of recognition. In fact, none of the three aforementioned impediments are applicable to Banjo.

“The actual reason” for situations always make the fan base downplay other characters. The Ice Climbers sold 1.3 million copies out of all the top 43 games and still not significant enough for Smash for this fanbase to realize it. It doesn’t matter about the Kid Icarus characters added right after Uprising. This is 2019 now. What about Kid Icarus for the Switch? Like I said, the series pretty much has no future for relevancy by the community standards. And I don’t see how Sakurai playing a part of SMRPG revival impossible. He doesn’t have full power compared to Kid Icarus but it’s always possible.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

My personal quota of whether you're a fan of FE or not is this:

1) You have to like Fire Emblem.
2) uh
3) um
4) buh

That's it. I know, they're strict guidelines, but if you don't follow these guidelines, you are NOT a fan!

I agree with the uh and um part but the buh part is just three letters too far! You can't expect a fan to do something like that.

 

[Nazyrus]

I honestly do think these next dlc will be sold individually. Mainly because when it got announced at the bottom it said they will sell them individual.

Probably yeah if what Sakurai said about supporting this game as much as they can is true then they probably won't feel tied to a schedule like we had with these 5 and just take their time developing each character they can think of. (If we get dates again I wouldn't mind tho, lol)

 

[maf91186]

Duck Hunt also sold 28 million copies and is associated with the NES second to only Mario himself, and he's first party so he doesn't have any issues in getting in either.

...could you buy Duck Hunt separately? I've only ever seen it on cartridges with Mario. Also, I'm pretty sure that came bundled with a large number of NES's. Of course, I never got one new so I guess I could be wrong lol

EDIT* This has already come up and been addressed. I commented before reading everything after lol

 

[N3ON]

“The actual reason” for situations always make the fan base downplay other characters. The Ice Climbers sold 1.3 million copies out of all the top 43 games and still not significant enough for Smash for this fanbase to realize it.

So you want to put aside the actual reason something happened and instead focus on the incorrect fan interpretation of it so as to better make the case for a character you want.

You want to highlight the end result of "getting an irrelevant character" without factoring in Sakurai's actual thought process and what he was looking for, because only the conclusion works in favour of the other character. I'm afraid it's not a situation in which we can just cherrypick the parts we like. We have to play by Sakurai's rules, he calls the shots.

And again, the method that lead to ICs' inclusion (which again only applies to a small stable of 80s characters) doesn't appear to be one Sakurai still employs anyway. It ended two or three games ago. Forget the character being irrelevant, the practice is irrelevant.

It doesn’t matter about the Kid Icarus characters added right after Uprising. This is 2019 now. What about Kid Icarus for the Switch? Like I said, the series pretty much has no future for relevancy by the community standards.

Hence no new Kid Icarus characters were added this time.

And I don’t see how Sakurai playing a part of SMRPG revival impossible. He doesn’t have full power compared to Kid Icarus but it’s always possible.

"Not impossible" is a far cry from being something to bank on. It's not impossible Sakurai reconsiders making an Oculus game like he was approached to do several years ago.

 

[ZelDan]

What if a younger person's (or any person's for that matter) first Nintendo system was a 3DS, and thus the first FE game they could have possibly gotten was Awakening, and then liked that game and bought every FE game after that (Fates, Echoes, Three Houses)?

Is this person a "fake FE fan?"

 

[Cuzeba123]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JoaoRic0701/status/1179175685748920322
Guys, don't forget to vote for Geno

 

[SNEKeater]

I honestly do think these next dlc will be sold individually. Mainly because when it got announced at the bottom it said they will sell them individual.

Well they sure will be able to be purchased individually. Like the DLC we got so far with the fighter pass.

I mean, if you sold new fighters individually without no pass you can sold them without music or stages, but I'd find it a bit disappointing. I guess that would work if they're gonna mix first and third party characters. The first party ones won't be receiving new stages, only a few songs and probably no remixes (so that way Sakurai and his team will spend less resources), and the third party ones will be receiving stages and maybe more songs.

 

[N3ON]

What if a younger person's (or any person's for that matter) first Nintendo system was a 3DS, and thus the first FE game they could have possibly gotten was Awakening, and then liked that game and bought every FE game after that (Fates, Echoes, Three Houses)?

Is this person a "fake FE fan?"

Ahhhhh it's all just nonsense gatekeeping. As long as Awakening, Fates and 3H are real Fire Emblem games (and I'm sure some very bitter people would try to argue that they aren't), people who like them are real Fire Emblem fans.

I have never played a FE game on casual mode, but ever since the first FE game I played (which was long before Awakening) I would just turn my game off if one of my units died (usually, at least) and then restart the battle. It basically amounts to a similar outcome, so am I a fake fan? Am I a fake fan for saving before fighting a legendary or the Elite Four so I can restart if the battle doesn't go the way I like?

It's tantamount to saying real Smash fans don't trifle with the floaty, slow, water-down mechanics of Brawl, 4, and sometimes even Ultimate. You know, the only real fans of the series are those that have to go into the options and switch a bunch of things to their liking, lest they not want to even bother. The ones who can only stand the series being one way, and ignore probably half the content in the game... those are the true fans I guess.

 

[Deleted member]

So you want to put aside the actual reason something happened and instead focus on the incorrect fan interpretation of it so as to better make the case for a character you want.

You want to highlight the end result of "getting an irrelevant character" without factoring in Sakurai's actual thought process and what he was looking for, because only the conclusion works in favour of the other character. I'm afraid it's not a situation in which we can just cherrypick the parts we like. We have to play by Sakurai's rules, he calls the shots.

And again, the method that lead to ICs' inclusion (which again only applies to a small stable of 80s characters) doesn't appear to be one Sakurai still employs anyway. It ended two or three games ago. Forget the character being irrelevant, the practice is irrelevant.


Hence no new Kid Icarus characters were added this time.


"Not impossible" is a far cry from being something to bank on. It's not impossible Sakurai reconsiders making an Oculus game like he was approached to do several years ago.

I am aware Sakurai’s thought process. I acknowledge the way he do things. That doesn’t mean the reason is that 100% valid though with bringing the Ice Climbers. I’m just confused why the fanbase downplays Geno and yet being good to go with the Ice Climbers. The “retro rep” reason many people brought up isn’t that valid as you think. You’re still not acknowledging that there is nothing significant about the Ice Climbers. The fanbase and yourself know it. Both Geno and the Ice Climbers are both obscure characters with only one game. Sakurai wants an NES Rep, but the Ice Climbers is not Kid Icarus, Punch out, or Duck Hunt. At least Geno is from a game that defines the Mario RPGs.

 

[ZelDan]

Ahhhhh it's all just nonsense gatekeeping. As long as Awakening, Fates and 3H are real Fire Emblem games (and I'm sure some very bitter people would try to argue that they aren't), people who like them are real Fire Emblem fans.

I have never played a FE game on casual mode, but ever since the first FE game I played (which was long before Awakening) I would just turn my game off if one of my units died (usually, at least) and then restart the battle. It basically amounts to a similar outcome, so am I a fake fan? Am I a fake fan for saving before fighting a legendary or the Elite Four so I can restart if the battle doesn't go the way I like?

It's tantamount to saying real Smash fans don't trifle with the floaty, slow, water-down mechanics of Brawl, 4, and sometimes even Ultimate. You know, the only real fans of the series are those that have to go into the options and switch a bunch of things to their liking, lest they not want to even bother. The ones who can only stand the series being one way, and ignore probably half the content in the game... those are the true fans I guess.

Indeed, I agree with it all being gatekeeping. I was making a point about how someone could be a fan of something but maybe have reason they haven't actually experienced everything, like how a younger person might not have many older system to actually play the older stuff.

As for Smash, I've seen both casual and competitive Smashers alike show elitism or gatekeeping. you've pointed out the more unideal competitive types, but I've heard people go on about how people that only play competively, turn off stages and items etc. aren't playing it "real" or aren't true fans since they're not experiencing alot of the game. Who cares if people genuinely have more fun playing a more competitive way I guess.

I find it silly how to some parts of the Smash community there's a competitive vs. casual mentality, since if anything what makes Smash such a great thing is that it IS able to appeal to both casual and more competitive players alike and be greatly enjoyed and appreciated by both.

 

[ForsakenM]

You lose me the moment you try to define what a "real" fan is.

If someone says they're a fan of something, then they're a fan. The experience of being a fan lies with the individual; you can't take that away from them.

Not sure I can agree with this.

'I'm a fan of charcoal ice cream.'

Guess what? I've never eaten or even seen or come into contact with charcoal ice cream.

Am I really a fan?

 

[N3ON]

I am aware Sakurai’s thought process. I acknowledge the way he do things. That doesn’t mean the reason is that 100% valid though with bringing the Ice Climbers. I’m just confused why the fanbase downplays Geno and yet being good to go with the Ice Climbers. The “retro rep” reason many people brought up isn’t that valid as you think. You’re still not acknowledging that there is nothing significant about the Ice Climbers. The fanbase and yourself know it. Both Geno and the Ice Climbers are both obscure characters with only one game. Sakurai wants an NES Rep, but the Ice Climbers is not Kid Icarus, Punch out, or Duck Hunt. At least Geno is from a game that defines the Mario RPGs.

I fully acknowledge that the Ice Climbers are nothing special. I've played their game, I think it's pretty bad. And ****, they weren't even the first, second, or third choice of Sakurai's. But the point is, and I don't know how many more times I can keep saying this, it wasn't about the character, it was about the era from which they hailed. And therein lies the contrast between an inclusion like the Ice Climbers, which were given special consideration exclusive to a very small pool of 80s characters (which AGAIN, hasn't informed inclusion since at least Brawl - so has as little place being raised now as Japan-only additions), and an inclusion like Geno's, who faces a much more typical path to inclusion, being that he needs to stand on his own merit.

You can't compare the two. ICs are an exception; they were given a pass. Pit was given a pass (probably - though he was also popular). G&W, ROB, and DHD were given a pass (a different kind, but a pass nonetheless). Geno, not having a starring role in some old 80s title, nor being a surprise pick, nor having hardwire ties, is a member of the majority, where inclusion comes through individual (or series - though with Geno it'd be the former) merit.

Disregarding that they were chosen simply because they were retro is dismissing the fact that their inclusion is exceptional, and not suitable to use as precedent, unless you're applying it only to other characters that fit Sakurai's mold (not yours) for retro. Geno doesn't. You can't use exceptions to set a rule.

 

[Deleted member]

I fully acknowledge that the Ice Climbers are nothing special. I've played their game, I think it's pretty bad. And ****, they weren't even the first, second, or third choice of Sakurai's. But the point is, and I don't know how many more times I can keep saying this, it wasn't about the character, it was about the era from which they hailed. And therein lies the contrast between an inclusion like the Ice Climbers, which were given special consideration exclusive to a very small pool of 80s characters (which AGAIN, hasn't informed inclusion since at least Brawl - so has as little place being raised now as Japan-only additions), and an inclusion like Geno's, who faces a much more typical path to inclusion, being that he needs to stand on his own merit.

You can't compare the two. ICs are an exception; they were given a pass. Pit was given a pass (probably - though he was also popular). G&W, ROB, and DHD were given a pass (a different kind, but a pass nonetheless). Geno, not having a starring role in some old 80s title, nor being a surprise pick, nor having hardwire ties, is a member of the majority, where inclusion comes through individual (or series - though with Geno it'd be the former) merit.

Disregarding that they were chosen simply because they were retro is dismissing the fact that their inclusion is exceptional, and not suitable to use as precedent, unless you're applying it only to other characters that fit Sakurai's mold (not yours) for retro. Geno doesn't. You can't use exceptions to set a rule.

No. Just no... You pretty much can compare Geno to the Ice Climbers. We already had characters from the NES era like Samus and Marth I don’t see how that is an automatic exception from comparison just because you’re from the 80’s. It would be pretty flawed to say that Isaac from Golden Sun doesn’t deserve to get in but yet the Ice Climbers does just because they were from the 80’s. Nothing special about them. Meanwhile, Golden Sun is considered one of the best Gameboy Advance games out there and critically acclaimed it makes more sense to compare to Duck Hunt. The only rule I see that you can’t compare more relevant from more significant games to old nothing special games which is what I’ve been saying. And not having a “staring role” is not enough to say you can’t make a comparison to the Ice Climbers.

 

[N3ON]

No. Just no... You pretty much can compare Geno to the Ice Climbers. We already had characters from the NES era like Samus and Marth I don’t see how that is an automatic exception from comparison just because you’re from the 80’s. It would be pretty flawed to say that Isaac from Golden Sun doesn’t deserve to get in but yet the Ice Climbers does just because they were from the 80’s. Nothing special about them. Meanwhile, Golden Sun is considered one of the best Gameboy Advance games out there and critically acclaimed it makes more sense to compare to Duck Hunt. The only rule I see that you can’t compare more relevant from more significant games to old nothing special games which is what I’ve been saying. And not having a “staring role” is not enough to make a comparison to the Ice Climbers.

Do you think I'm just making it up that they were only chosen because Sakurai was simply looking for an old NES character? It's fairly common knowledge in the Smash circles. Merit wasn't a factor, ""deservedness"" wasn't a factor, the key factor was simply that they existed when they existed.

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/1009/index.html

Obviously that's super atypical, which is why they can't be used to justify other characters. I'm not arguing what it takes to normally be included, I'm saying they eschewed that entire process. Therefore characters that actually have to go through the process (like Geno, or Isaac) are incomparable.

 

[Deleted member]

Do you think I'm just making it up that they were only chosen because Sakurai was simply looking for an old NES character? It's fairly common knowledge in the Smash circles. Merit wasn't a factor, ""deservedness"" wasn't a factor, the key factor was simply that they existed when they existed.

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/1009/index.html

Obviously that's super atypical, which is why they can't be used to justify other characters. I'm not arguing what it takes to normally be included, I'm saying they eschewed that entire process. Therefore characters that actually have to go through the process (like Geno, or Isaac) are incomparable.

How is Isaac not exactly comparable in this process? Would Dixie not be comparable too? I don’t understand this process you’re talking about.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Quick note y'all

The poll that the Title of this thread is advertising ends on October 5th

Just looked that up

 

[N3ON]

How is Isaac not exactly comparable in this process? Would Dixie not be comparable too? I don’t understand this process you’re talking about.

Because Isaac and Dixie aren't characters from old NES games?

Did you read the quote in the link? He was hunting for an NES character. Geno wouldn't fit. Isaac wouldn't fit. Dixie wouldn't fit. It was a very small category only open to retro characters from the NES (perhaps even early NES) days.

It's like when he creates the spot for a new Pokemon before he chooses the Pokemon. Except he did that for NES characters. He hasn't done it with any other era of character. And he hasn't done it since Brawl (or maybe even Melee). You can't put characters that aren't old NES characters in that category, the spot wasn't open to them. They were ineligible.

Which is why suggesting Geno could get in the same way... just doesn't work. Only characters like Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, Bubbles, etc. fit the parameters. Like how only a seventh gen Pokemon would fit the spot that eventually went to Incineroar.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Because Isaac and Dixie aren't characters from old NES games?

Did you read the quote in the link? He was hunting for an NES character. Geno wouldn't fit. Isaac wouldn't fit. Dixie wouldn't fit. It was a very small category only open to retro characters from the NES (perhaps even early NES) days.

It's like when he creates the spot for a new Pokemon before he chooses the Pokemon. Except he did that for NES characters. He hasn't done it with any other era of character. And he hasn't done it since Brawl (or maybe even Melee). You can't put characters that aren't old NES characters in that category, the spot wasn't open to them. They were ineligible.

Which is why suggesting Geno could get in the same way... just doesn't work. Only characters like Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, Bubbles, etc. fit the parameters. Like how only a seventh gen Pokemon would fit the spot that eventually went to Incineroar.

Oh no, he was TOTALLY an NES character

 

[False Sense]

Not sure I can agree with this.

'I'm a fan of charcoal ice cream.'

Guess what? I've never eaten or even seen or come into contact with charcoal ice cream.

Am I really a fan?

That would be for you to determine. You already admitted to yourself that you're not actually a fan in this particular example, so that resolves itself. But even then, one could still consider themselves a fan in those circumstances. One could just know or sincerely believe they would enjoy charcoal ice cream despite having never come in contact with it, or perhaps they have a more personal reason for liking charcoal ice cream. Maybe they just think the concept of charcoal ice cream is cool.

That probably sounds crazy, but it's not so different from fans of characters in Smash. How many people would say they are fans of characters like Captain Falcon, Roy, or even Geno, despite having only experienced them within the context of Smash? They've only experienced someone else's interpretation of that character, not the original character itself, so does mean they aren't allowed to call themselves fans of said character?

More to the point, what business do I have in saying whether you are or are not a fan? If someone came up to me and said they were a fan of charcoal ice cream despite never having it, who am I to say they aren't based on criteria I made up? Even if someone is lying about being a fan of charcoal ice cream, unless I already know they're lying, why should I tell them they aren't? I might as well dictate to someone what they like and don't like. It's not for me to decide.

This is why fandom scholars typically claim that fans are self-identified. The idea of a fan is so nebulous and broad, and the experience of fandom so personalized, that to allow someone else to determine for you whether you are or aren't a fan of something is... dumb.

And even more to the point, it's just really rude.

 

[Deleted member]

Because Isaac and Dixie aren't characters from old NES games?

Did you read the quote in the link? He was hunting for an NES character. Geno wouldn't fit. Isaac wouldn't fit. Dixie wouldn't fit. It was a very small category only open to retro characters from the NES (perhaps even early NES) days.

It's like when he creates the spot for a new Pokemon before he chooses the Pokemon. Except he did that for NES characters. He hasn't done it with any other era of character. And he hasn't done it since Brawl (or maybe even Melee). You can't put characters that aren't old NES characters in that category, the spot wasn't open to them. They were ineligible.

Which is why suggesting Geno could get in the same way... just doesn't work. Only characters like Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, Bubbles, etc. fit the parameters. Like how only a seventh gen Pokemon would fit the spot that eventually went to Incineroar.

Your “quote” from the link is nothing but Japanese. A translation would be nice. Sakurai can go on a hunt for NES characters as he likes. Perhaps put a character that actually defines more NES? Since you’re defending NES characters because Sakurai wants them, Sakurai approves Geno because how requested he his and a unique character he would be. But you really don’t a lot of people defending him that way now do you? Can you explain why NES characters with no significance shouldn’t be compared? Like I said before, just being in the NES era doesn’t automatically mean you shouldn’t be touched.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm sensing some hostility here...

 

[Deleted member]

Quick note y'all

The poll that the Title of this thread is advertising ends on October 5th

Just looked that up

Oooh I'm so looking forward to seeing the results! I've been curious on what the poll results will look like and I've been curious ever since I first got word from it since the sample size should be relatively big at least 6,000+ votes maybe?

 

[False Sense]

I'm sensing some hostility here...

Really? I can't see anything through all this neon.

 

[N3ON]

Well I’m sorry, you still didn’t really explain what “process” your talking about.

The process of inclusion, whereby a character's merits get them included. The normal process, in other words. The process that applies to the vast majority of the cast, and would apply to Geno. ICs got a free pass past the part where their merits get weighed against other candidates. All they had to do was exist in the classic NES era.

Basically they received preferential treatment. And preferential treatment for a character in a different situation is not a tenable correlation.

Your “quote” from the link is nothing but Japanese. Put English next time.

The gist is he designated a spot specifically for an old NES character, and then by process of elimination landed on the ICs after finding other potential candidates infeasible.

That doesn’t give the fans an excuse to say an NES character should be left alone than these characters.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Sakurai can go on a hunt for NES characters as he likes. Perhaps put a character that defines more NES?

That's his call, not mine. He chose who he chose. Given all he was looking for was an old character on the NES, it's not like the ICs don't fit those qualifications.

Sakurai approves Geno because how requested he his and a unique character he would be. But you really don’t a lot of people defending him that way now do you?

What, that Sakurai would pick Geno due to his requests and his potential? That's literally the main argument for him.

Can you explain why NES characters with no significance shouldn’t be compared? Like I said before, just being in the NES era doesn’t automatically mean you shouldn’t be touched.

Shouldn't be compared to characters like Geno and Isaac? Because Sakurai created a spot especially for old retros whereby they didn't have to measure up against other characters, and he did no such thing for any other era. ICs can get in based on that spot saved for their kind of character. Geno doesn't have a saved spot.

Also, he doesn't even do this anymore for the retros, let alone for a character he never did this for.

Really? I can't see anything through all this neon.

 

[Deleted member]

The process of inclusion, whereby a character's merits get them included. The normal process, in other words. The process that applies to the vast majority of the cast, and would apply to Geno. ICs got a free pass past the part where their merits get weighed against other candidates. All they had to do was exist in the classic NES era.

But that still doesn’t objectively make them deserving...

Basically they received preferential treatment. And preferential treatment for a character in a different situation is not a tenable correlation.

And what do you mean by that?

The gist is he designated a spot specifically for an old NES character, and then by process of elimination landed on the ICs after finding other potential candidates infeasible.
I don't understand what you're saying here.

Im saying that the Ice Climbers deserve to be in Smash but not other characters is ridiculous?

That's his call, not mine. He chose who he chose. Given all he was looking for was an old character on the NES, it's not like the ICs don't fit those qualifications.


What, that Sakurai would pick Geno due to his requests and his potential? That's literally the main argument for him.

Well, I’m sure a lot of people wanted the Ice Climbers back in Smash 4 and we got a character that defined the NES era.

 

[ceterisparibus]

Arguing that awakening wasn't a "real" fe game when it was literally fire emblem - the greatest hits does strike me as a little gatekeeply

 

[Deleted member]

The process of inclusion, whereby a character's merits get them included. The normal process, in other words. The process that applies to the vast majority of the cast, and would apply to Geno. ICs got a free pass past the part where their merits get weighed against other candidates. All they had to do was exist in the classic NES era.

Basically they received preferential treatment. And preferential treatment for a character in a different situation is not a tenable correlation.


The gist is he designated a spot specifically for an old NES character, and then by process of elimination landed on the ICs after finding other potential candidates infeasible.


I don't understand what you're saying here.


That's his call, not mine. He chose who he chose. Given all he was looking for was an old character on the NES, it's not like the ICs don't fit those qualifications.


What, that Sakurai would pick Geno due to his requests and his potential? That's literally the main argument for him.


Shouldn't be compared to characters like Geno and Isaac? Because Sakurai created a spot especially for old retros whereby they didn't have to measure up against other characters, and he did no such thing for any other era. ICs can get in based on that spot saved for their kind of character. Geno doesn't have a saved spot.

Also, he doesn't even do this anymore for the retros, let alone for a character he never did this for.

I understand the Sakurai saving the spot stuff, but still, the Ice Climbers don’t objectively deserve to be in Smash compared to other characters. I said it time and time again, the characters should be compared because how insignificant they are. It doesn’t matter if Sakuari just saves a slot. In Smash 4, we got a character that truly defines the NES era. So there’s no need for them. But fan demand is what got them here in Ultimate bringing back everyone.

 

[ForsakenM]

That would be for you to determine. You already admitted to yourself that you're not actually a fan in this particular example, so that resolves itself. But even then, one could still consider themselves a fan in those circumstances. One could just know or sincerely believe they would enjoy charcoal ice cream despite having never come in contact with it, or perhaps they have a more personal reason for liking charcoal ice cream. Maybe they just think the concept of charcoal ice cream is cool.

That probably sounds crazy, but it's not so different from fans of characters in Smash. How many people would say they are fans of characters like Captain Falcon, Roy, or even Geno, despite having only experienced them within the context of Smash? They've only experienced someone else's interpretation of that character, not the original character itself, so does mean they aren't allowed to call themselves fans of said character?

More to the point, what business do I have in saying whether you are or are not a fan? If someone came up to me and said they were a fan of charcoal ice cream despite never having it, who am I to say they aren't based on criteria I made up? Even if someone is lying about being a fan of charcoal ice cream, unless I already know they're lying, why should I tell them they aren't? I might as well dictate to someone what they like and don't like. It's not for me to decide.

This is why fandom scholars typically claim that fans are self-identified. The idea of a fan is so nebulous and broad, and the experience of fandom so personalized, that to allow someone else to determine for you whether you are or aren't a fan of something is... dumb.

And even more to the point, it's just really rude.

I can't really agree with this. I don't believe you can just say you are a fan of something and thus be a fan. The proof is in the pudding.

I can say I'm a can of Cheese Whiz or an Abominable Snowman, but as much as I say I am, I am clearly not. As much as some people hate it, this applies to more abstract things as well, like 'being a fan' of something. You cannot be a fan of something just because you like it. It's a bit more than that.

Merriam-Webster defines the word fan as 'an enthusiastic devotee (as of a sporting event or a performing art) usually as a spectator' and 'an ardent admirer or enthusiast (as of a celebrity or a pursuit)'. You'll notice something here, and that is terms like 'enthusiastic' or 'ardent', which can be connected zealous, fervent...or, what I like to call, 'OOMPH!' Being a fan means that you bring that 'OOMPH!' to whatever it is you like. You don't just say 'Yeah, I kinda like this show...I guess I'm a fan'; you would be more likely to say 'Dude, I am a HUGE fan of this show, we HAVE to watch this together. You won't BELIEVE how awesome it is!' There is a reason why the word fan spawns from fanatic...

Let me give you a better explanation in my own terms: investment.

Have you ever noticed that when you kind of like something you really couldn't care one way or they other about what happens, but when you are a FAN you occasionally go a bit to far with how you feel? That's the difference between something that matters and something that doesn't; that is the difference investment makes.

Take for example Game of Thrones. Someone who merely likes GoT wouldn't care too much about Season 8 being garbage. 'Eh, they could have done better here or there I think, but it is what it is.' Does that sound like a fan to you? Or do all the videos and posts on social media going absolutely ballistic and picking apart all the issues and being upset at the writers sound like fans to you? Sure, they may have responded in ways you think were going too far, but they did that BECAUSE THEY WERE FANS. They didn't merely like GoT: it was their favorite show that they talked about with their friends every day. They scheduled their time around watching the new episodes and even re-watching old ones. They named children after the characters. They bought merchandise and followed the cast on social media and...I think my point has been made.

To make this more personal, I found this mobile game recently. It's called Dungeon Tales or something like that. Discount Slay the Spires clone. I played it for a while for a day or two and mentioned it to a buddy of mine who likes deck building games, but I've already taken extended breaks from it to do other things. It's fun, and I like it, but I wouldn't say I'm a Dungeon Tales fan.

...But SMRPG tho?

I mean, look where I am right now! I'm spending time on a forum talking with other people across the states and even the globe who love a singular character from a 23-yr-old game! I listen to the soundtrack frequently and I have a playlist I built dedicated to remixes after already having probably 15 of them in my Favorites on YT. I've livestreamed the game and I play it occasionally even when I don't truly own it but I want to buy a SNES Classic/Switch purely to be able to PLAY the game legitimately. Jesus, I HUM THE MUSIC AT WORK AND IN MY DAILY LIFE! If I could easily find merch I would buy it now that I'm employed (speaking of which, anyone have a link for the Geno Blast shirt from way back? I still want it) and one of my biggest wishes if for Geno to get in Smash, so big that if/when it happens I could actually never ask for anything more from Sakurai ever for the rest of my existence!

Yeah, there is a reason why there are phrases such as 'you aren't a true fan' and the like. Sure, you can be a fan in your own way and you can even be a fan of only a portion of something and not all of it, but you aren't a fan just because you declare it. It will show in your actions.

 

[Deleted member]

None of y'all are true fans and I have absolute proof.

 

[Zinith]

None of y'all are true fans and I have absolute proof.

I once a voice sample of my blowing into a fan as a bass instrument for an EDM song.

CHECKMATE ATHEIST!!!

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

None of y'all are true fans and I have absolute proof.

Imo I see plenty of venting in here