Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Firox]

I'm a really lonely voice in this but Banjo doesn't really feel very well balanced. I'm really hoping that the budget didn't wear thin on balancing the characters, because I'm not ok with the DLC progressively getting more and more imbalanced until we have another Bayonetta on our hands.

I feel like Banjo is fairly well balanced for the most part, but I definitely have to agree that Wonder Wing is broke AF even with only 5 uses a stock. It has so little end lag that if you space it correctly, you can pretty much get away either unpunished or with only a dash attack slap on the wrist. At the same time, it can kill as early as 80% depending on weight and position and can trump anything that isn't a command grab or a tether grab assuming you have perfect timing. Combine this with online lag/response time and you have a god-tier move. This is amplified even more now that the stupid online tourney mode only allows 1 stock. All you need are 2 or 3 strings from Banjo and now you're at the mercy of 5 instant deaths.

I can definitely understand your worry. The last thing we need is some totally broken DLC fighter coming along to destroy the game and the dev team going limp on the balancing like they did with Smash 4. I think we're mostly OK so far, but it's something we should definitely watch out for.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Seriously Ness can be named in his game/he represents you and has little personality there aside from a photo pose and homesickness; Link’s personality is very vague to barely anything in some of his games and he represents you or whoever as well; Dragon Quest Heroes are also you and have little personality; and Villager is literally you and has a vague enough personality to be creepy in a different game. Mojang recently made it so that Steve, Alex, and custom characters can blink, and the writer for the news post on the official website called Steve and Alex “notable” specifically referring to them as such and as characters.

The problem here is that Ness, Link and the Dragon Quest heroes are established characters of their home series. No matter what name you give them, they'll still have the same clothes, same hair style, same looks so even though they have a blank personality to let Players integrate themselves into the game as that character, they are not truly you.

With Steve, since his look is based on what texture you give him, He loses his identity completely when you pick a different skin. Say you give him a Mario skin, now he is no longer Steve since he has lost all of the defining features that make him Steve and the only defining feature left from Steve (Which is being blocky) is shared with everything else in the Minecraft world.

Villager is in a similar boat but not to the same extreme as Steve. You can change the Villager's clothes, hair style, gender and you can make them look like your favourite character but you can never make it so much that the Villager becomes indistinguishable from their identity. They'll just be a Villager dressed up like Mario because clothes aren't treated as skins like in Minecraft.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I love this. I need my bois in Smash so this ages well. reminds me of the Smash Kingdom videos from the Brawl days

Raskin’s Geno voice has dropped in quality a lot, though

I think Raskin's Geno sounded pretty good here:

 

[TheCJBrine]

The problem here is that Ness, Link and the Dragon Quest heroes are established characters of their home series. No matter what name you give them, they'll still have the same clothes, same hair style, same looks so even though they are blank in personality to let Players intergrate themselves into the game as that character, they are not truly you.

With Steve, since his look is based on what texture you give him, He loses his identity completely when you pick a different skin. Say you give him a Mario skin, now he is no longer Steve, his identity is now Mario since he has lost all of the defining features that make him Steve and the only defining feature left from Steve (Which is being blocky) is shared with everything else in the Minecraft world.

Villager is in a similar boat but not to the same extreme as Steve. You can change the Villager's clothes, hair style, gender and you can make them look like your favourite character but you can never make it so much that the Villager becomes indistinguishable from their identity. They'll just be a Villager dressed up like Mario because clothes aren't treated as skins like in Minecraft but as clothes.

Steve is still the face of the game and is treated as such by Mojang along with Alex and the creeper. Steve is at least always there in Bedrock Edition since he’s always available to use ingame. He has also been used by many people in fan art, builds, and videos. While you can replace him with another character outside of the blocky aesthetic, he’s still the main guy alongside Alex, is still a character and is treated as such by Mojang employees.

The Villager has literally no identity aside from what you give them and the given emotions anyone could have, and they’re still vague enough where a person’s view of the villagers would change if they were in a different game. They don’t even have a canon name and so it’s always yours or whatever you make up, while Steve himself is at least always Steve. Of course there’s also Animal Crossing’s aesthetic but then that can count for Steve and we can say he’s putting a suit on since his specific blocky shape is known for being from Minecraft, though I’m sure they would only use Steve and Alex in Smash. And if people like to complain about personality so much, then that still goes for the characters I mentioned, because they’re still close to being blank slates. It feels unfair how no one complains about these other characters with little to nothing and yet Steve is the one the haters focus on when you can at the very least treat him as the Villager but with a name and define his personality based on what he does and has.

 

[JarBear]

I don't mind Minecraft Fans wanting to have Steve as a fighter and wanting to brush off the whole "character" thing. Let's be blunt people, with the Plant in the game ... "characters" don't matter. (/end semi-semi rant)

Minecraft is popular and Steve is the face of it. That's perfectly fine.

However, when I hear arguments of "Well ... Link isn't a characters since he doesn't have personality ... Or Ness ... Or "insert character" ... sorry, that argument is just ... terrible.

The creator of Minecraft's intention of "Steve" was not to be a definable character: https://www.engadget.com/2012/07/29/notch-minecraft-occupies-a-genderless-world-even-for-that-guy/.

Now trying to form the argument that such DEFINED characters (Links, Ness's, Etc.), who's the game creator named and designed their character ... are somehow not characters because of such reasons as "lack of personality .... you can name it however you want INSTEAD OF THE DEFAULT NAME OF THE CHARACTER ... etc" does not take away the fact that he/she is a characters who's origin IS being a unique character.

Steve was not originally designed or defined by that. Later, "he" became a character. Straight from "his" creator's own words.

This will be my last time commenting on the who "character" thing when it comes to Steve.

If Steve/Minecraft fans want him, that's a-ok! Minecraft is huge, so why not? Sakurai would do a good job on him.

But if you start the argument regarding characters and how notable gaming icons are not characters when Steve is ... you are simply wrong. Even the creator of the Minecraft says you are wrong.

Granted I understand if such fans are frustrated with the back lash about him not being a character. While that is true, for Smash it doesn't matter. Steve is the face of Minecraft and has supporters for such a huge franchise. That should not deter him from being considered. However, stop with the terrible argument please.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I wouldn't mind Steve especially since Banjo & Kazooie are in now. I think Steve deserves a slot in Smash since Minecraft is the best selling game of all time.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I don't mind Minecraft Fans wanting to have Steve as a fighter and wanting to brush off the whole "character" thing. Let's be blunt people, with the Plant in the game ... "characters" don't matter. (/end semi-semi rant)

Minecraft is popular and Steve is the face of it. That's perfectly fine.

However, when I hear arguments of "Well ... Link isn't a characters since he doesn't have personality ... Or Ness ... Or "insert character" ... sorry, that argument is just ... terrible.

The creator of Minecraft's intention of "Steve" was not to be a definable character: https://www.engadget.com/2012/07/29/notch-minecraft-occupies-a-genderless-world-even-for-that-guy/.

Now trying to form the argument that such DEFINED characters, who's the games creator name, designed, etc are not characters because of such reasons as "lack of personality .... you can name it however you want ... etc" does not take away the fact that he/she is a characters who's origin IS being a character.

Steve was not originally designed or defined by that. Later, "he" became a character.

This will be my last time commenting on the who "character" thing when it comes to Steve. If Steve/Minecraft fans want him, that's a-ok! Minecraft is huge, so why not?

But if you start the argument regarding characters and how notable gaming icons are not characters when Steve is ... you are simply wrong. Even the creator of the Minecraft says you are wrong.

My argument was that said gaming icons are close to being like Steve and some like Link pretty much are like him in some of their games, so it doesn’t feel fair at all when people push the “personality” thing when they can easily make him expressive as shown in moveset/Smash animation videos (or Minecraft: Dungeons) and other characters are just about on the same level. Heck, Steve is a gaming icon, too.

That gender thing for player characters was also thrown out the window once they added Alex. Alex is treated as a girl and Steve is treated as a boy. A Mojang writer on the official website, in the news post for the character creator, even referred to them as notable and called them characters. Notch originally didn’t intend for a character but it’s clear this has changed. Steve has even had crossovers in other games with his first crossover being in 2011. Steve and Alex are even their official names now and have been for some years, so it’s not just a joke and there’s no reason something canon/official or whatever can’t start from a joke.

Notch doesn’t even work for Minecraft and Mojang anymore, and hasn’t since 2014 and even stopped working on it before he left Mojang, just leaving Jeb and the others to work on it. Even if he was still there, it’s possible this still would’ve happened as he was still there (yet left the same month) when Alex was created, so no, Steve fans aren’t wrong. What Notch originally intended doesn’t even matter now.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

The problem here is that Ness, Link and the Dragon Quest heroes are established characters of their home series. No matter what name you give them, they'll still have the same clothes, same hair style, same looks so even though they have a blank personality to let Players integrate themselves into the game as that character, they are not truly you.

With Steve, since his look is based on what texture you give him, He loses his identity completely when you pick a different skin. Say you give him a Mario skin, now he is no longer Steve since he has lost all of the defining features that make him Steve and the only defining feature left from Steve (Which is being blocky) is shared with everything else in the Minecraft world.

Villager is in a similar boat but not to the same extreme as Steve. You can change the Villager's clothes, hair style, gender and you can make them look like your favourite character but you can never make it so much that the Villager becomes indistinguishable from their identity. They'll just be a Villager dressed up like Mario because clothes aren't treated as skins like in Minecraft.

This seems like unnecessary gate-keeping on Steve's part. We're arguing semantics on a customizable character at this point despite having characters that blatantly have little to no personality already existing in the game. Piranha Plant wasn't originally made to have a personality beyond "Kill Mario." R.O.B. wasn't originally made to have any personality because he was just a toy. The summation of Duck Hunt's "character" was laughing at you for missing shots and holding up the ducks. Villagers can look vastly different from one another as can most Inklings with their styles and representations. All the skins you can apply in Minecraft still retain the block-y skelton and don't differentiate what you do with the character, they are purely cosmetic alterations that are more viable to do en masse because you're just applying textures to the base frame of Steve.

Most video game protagonists were incredibly simplistic in their origin and just meant as a way for the player to experience the game. Some got more lore than others, but lets not really pretend like they weren't primarily made as vehicles for gameplay, and most of them were only well defined later on. Pac-Man is a prime example of a character who wasn't exactly super well defined when he debuted, and even what he might have had was largely unknown to the audience who played the arcade machine because "3/4 of a pie that eat pellets and avoids ghosts to advance and get high scores" was fun.

This is why I fundamentally don't think there's substance to any people saying Steve is any less valid of a character option than others. Plenty of other titles have completely prioritized gameplay in their original incarnations and the lore wasn't made as many of them initially popular. Saying "Minecraft is known for its world and gameplay and thus is 'better' represented by a stage" is easily arguing against characters already in the roster and ignores the fact that characters are frequently picked to represent IPs of all shapes and sizes despite how well remembered they may be for "the character of whatever have you." It always come off as gate-keeping specifically Minecraft from getting a playable character in Smash.

 

[Ovaltine]

C'mon, if we're here supporting Geno, who is a one-off side character from a Mario spin-off, the last thing we should be doing is gate-keeping Steve, a character from the game that outsold freaking Tetris.

 

[Firox]

C'mon, if we're here supporting Geno, who is a one-off side character from a Mario spin-off, the last thing we should be doing is gate-keeping Steve, a character from the game that outsold freaking Tetris.

Honest question: Is Minecraft seriously the best selling video game of all time? Do we have any numbers for that? Color me intrigued.

EDIT: Holy **** on a **** sandwich with **** on top! Over 176,000,000 units sold?! How does ANYTHING sell that good?! Did they throw a free bag of coke in with every game?

 

[Fenriraga]

I've never talked to anyone who doesn't see Steve as the mascot of Minecraft, be they older or younger. Just because you can change your skin doesn't mean he himself isn't an icon. Heck, when I'm not playing with friends, I usually just default to Steve anyway. Why wouldn't I? He's made for the world he explores, quite literally.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Honest question: Is Minecraft seriously the best selling video game of all time? Do we have any numbers for that? Color me intrigued.

It was semi big news a little while ago:

https://www.windowscentral.com/minecraft-becomes-best-selling-game-all-time-its-10th-birthday

 

[Firox]

It was semi big news a little while ago:

https://www.windowscentral.com/minecraft-becomes-best-selling-game-all-time-its-10th-birthday

I gotta say, I'm not really a big fan of Steve, but I think the best argument for including him in Smash would be the sheer fiscal impact his game has had on the world. You wanna talk about Nintendo trying to reach out to other fanbases? You apparently can't tap a bigger one than Minecraft. Couple this with the fact that the game is over 10 years old, I could see where Sakurai might appreciate the historical impact as well.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

For me Steve is a Take it or leave it kind of inclusion. I wouldn't actively root against him, but personally speaking, there are other characters I would much rather see (not including geno)

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Steve is still the face of the game and is treated as such by Mojang along with Alex and the creeper. Steve is at least always there in Bedrock Edition since he’s always available to use ingame. He has also been used by many people in fan art, builds, and videos. While you can replace him with another character outside of the blocky aesthetic, he’s still the main guy alongside Alex, is still a character and is treated as such by Mojang employees.

People like to complain about personality so much, then that still goes for the characters I mentioned, because they’re still close to being blank slates.

It feels unfair how no one complains about these other characters with little to nothing and yet Steve is the one the haters focus on when you can at the very least treat him as the Villager but with a name and define his personality based on what he does and has.

My point is that you can entirely change Steve to anyone you like while you cannot do that with the characters you've mentioned. Therefore they can never be you while with Steve, he can be you. A more accurate comparison would be the Miis because you can mould their shape to look like you.

If you think I'm trying to denounce Steve's chances in Smash, I'm not since that is not my intention. I'm just saying that he isn't comparable to the characters you've mentioned (Besides villager) because despite their blank personalities, they still have established characteristics that make them their own character while Steve does not have that.

Ness is his default name, he has default interest in "Rockin", a default favourite food in "Steak" and he gets homesick which are things unique to him as a character. Even with Heroes like Link and the Dragon Quest protagonists, with what little personality they have, we know they have strong sense of justice as you are never given the choice to do something evil, they are kind and respectful to anyone good and angry towards people who are up to no good, Just the basic tropes for a hero.

Steve on the other hand is entirely enigmatic. We have no idea what his interests are, what his personality is like, his alignment with either good or evil, what his goals are, etc. All we know for sure is that his name is Steve and what he does is entirely up to the player.

This seems like unnecessary gate-keeping on Steve's part.

I'm not arguing that Steve can't be in Smash. I'm rebutting TheCJBrine 's claim that characters like Ness, Link and the Dragon Quest protagonists are comparable to Steve.

 

[Sour Supreme]

If Steve makes it his grab animation better be a sticky piston goddammit. Its too perfect to pass up that opportunity.

 

[ZelDan]

My issue with Minecraft Steve is largely his design and lack of almost anything, including things outside of personality/"character".

I know Minecraft Steve gets compared to other avatar characters alot, but even other avatar characters still ususally have Something over Steve. Link doesn't talk, sure, but he still has facial expressions atleast (especially WW Link) and has a backstory, Inklings have that amusing/endearing inkling speak (WOOMY!), Villager also has facial expressions for different situations. I don't recall Steve having any of this stuff. I know he gets compared to game & Watch alot, but even G&W has more going for him with how each "step" he takes he changes his pose/stance, and sometimes his facial expression or just face in general, compared to Steve that, to my knowledge, just pivots his arms and legs back and forth.

And this is on top of Steve's visual design being just so unappealing to me. The blocky, pixelated look just doesn't impress me in anyway.

 

[TheCJBrine]

My point is that you can entirely change Steve to anyone you like while you cannot do that with the characters you've mentioned. Therefore they can never be you while with Steve, he can be you. A more accurate comparison would be the Miis because you can mould their shape to look like you.

If you think I'm trying to denounce Steve's chances in Smash, I'm not since that is not my intention. I'm just saying that he isn't comparable to the characters you've mentioned (Besides villager) because despite their blank personalities, they still have established characteristics that make them their own character while Steve does not have that.

Ness is his default name, he has default interest in "Rockin", a default favourite food in "Steak" and he gets homesick which are things unique to him as a character. Even with Heroes like Link and the Dragon Quest protagonists, with what little personality they have, we know they have strong sense of justice as you are never given the choice to do something evil, they are kind and respectful to anyone good and angry towards people who are up to no good, Just the basic tropes for a hero.

Steve on the other hand is entirely enigmatic. We have no idea what his interests are, what his personality is like, his alignment with either good or evil, what his goals are, etc. All we know for sure is that his name is Steve and what he does is entirely up to the player.



I'm not arguing that Steve can't be in Smash. I'm rebutting TheCJBrine 's claim that characters like Ness, Link and the Dragon Quest protagonists are comparable to Steve.

Okay, I understand that.

I just don’t like the idea that he isn’t a character when he very much is. Mainly I just don’t like it when people act as if he can’t be expressive or as if he doesn’t have the requirements to be his own character. He at least blinks now and his limbs can move in every direction. Plus, Minecraft: Dungeons alone pretty much breaks every anti-Steve person’s argument about expressiveness and whatever.

I know the other characters have specific traits to them, but it’s still vague enough to fall in line with a lot of people and with some people’s statements about Steve. I think Ninten, Ness’s predecessor, was even intended for the player to project themselves onto at least somewhat originally, right down to the name as I remember they used a Japanese word that meant “you” or something in a magazine or manual. Mr. Game & Watch, too, wasn’t even his own character originally and was just a bunch of random people with different jobs or in different situations, with the standard person having no clear traits aside from a big nose and a mouth you can’t see when closed. Anti-Steve people may say he’s just the default skin, but no, Mojang still treats him as a notable character and some of the stuff from other characters are default things, too. There was at least something in the Lego Club July-August 2016 magazine stating that Steve is a miner, builder and alchemist while Alex is an explorer, builder and hunter; and that Steve is Alex’s boyfriend (though to be honest I don’t know what Mojang thinks of this but I assume LEGO would’ve needed approval for this stuff...).

 

[xpnc]

It feels unfair how no one complains about these other characters with little to nothing and yet Steve is the one the haters focus on when you can at the very least treat him as the Villager but with a name and define his personality based on what he does and has.

Probably because those other characters are Nintendo characters in a Nintendo all-stars game

 

[EricTheGamerman]

My point is that you can entirely change Steve to anyone you like while you cannot do that with the characters you've mentioned. Therefore they can never be you while with Steve, he can be you. A more accurate comparison would be the Miis because you can mould their shape to look like you.

If you think I'm trying to denounce Steve's chances in Smash, I'm not since that is not my intention. I'm just saying that he isn't comparable to the characters you've mentioned (Besides villager) because despite their blank personalities, they still have established characteristics that make them their own character while Steve does not have that.

Ness is his default name, he has default interest in "Rockin", a default favourite food in "Steak" and he gets homesick which are things unique to him as a character. Even with Heroes like Link and the Dragon Quest protagonists, with what little personality they have, we know they have strong sense of justice as you are never given the choice to do something evil, they are kind and respectful to anyone good and angry towards people who are up to no good, Just the basic tropes for a hero.

Steve on the other hand is entirely enigmatic. We have no idea what his interests are, what his personality is like, his alignment with either good or evil, what his goals are, etc. All we know for sure is that his name is Steve and what he does is entirely up to the player.

I'm not arguing that Steve can't be in Smash. I'm rebutting TheCJBrine 's claim that characters like Ness, Link and the Dragon Quest protagonists are comparable to Steve.

You can do whatever you want with Ness regardless of defaults outside of his appearance. Arguing for defaults in the case of Ness as a show of character, but then arguing against the default nature of Steve as a skin in Minecraft seems odd. The home sick is the only thing that's forced on to you by the gameplay. It's such a minor thing that I don't think it's really all that distinguishable at the end of the day. It's also odd to me to bring up the ideas of characters being restricted by their game. Like, yes, you can't kill people in Dragon Quest, but if you decide that all you want to do is kill monsters in the field like a genocidal maniac, you can still do that. The characters are extremely blank slates that you're allowed to insert as much into as you want. Steve isn't really that different as a default skin except that "story" in terms of exposition doesn't play a role and it gives the player more creative freedom in how they choose to play and interact with the world. I don't buy the idea that these are super different concepts between the two characters. They are a vehicle for the gameplay that the player can customize to varying degrees within the limits of the gameplay's freedom. Yes, there's more definition to the ones listed, but they do serve the same core purpose and function.

Probably because those other characters are Nintendo characters in a Nintendo all-stars game

One slight correction:

"Video game all-stars game"

 

[SKX31]

EDIT: Holy **** on a **** sandwich with **** on top! Over 176,000,000 units sold?! How does ANYTHING sell that good?! Did they throw a free bag of coke in with every game?

Minecraft's got tons of factors going for it:

*It's very, very accessible. 20 dollars ain't much to pay after all. That's also a pretty good deal if one's outside the traditional regions (NA, EU, JP). Sure the microtransactions seems to have been a sore spot for the core Minecraft community (gotta check with TheCJBrine on this to verify) but that doesn't seem to have stopped it.

*The idea is very simple and easy to explain to someone who isn't aware of what Minecraft is. "Think Virtual Lego. And you play as a Lego character building stuff." Simple concepts and ideas are very, very easy to get into. Mario and Tetris both share this positive for example.

*The game allows one to play however one wants. Most of the biggest smash hits allow players incredible freedom in how one plays it, whether one is serious or screwing around. From Pac-Man via SMB and GTA to, yes, Fortnite. That kind of freedom encourages replayability to a massive degree.

For little 8 year old Timmy (seriously, it's everywhere), Minecraft can easily be appealing because it's really easy to get and get stuck with.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Okay, I understand that.

I just don’t like the idea that he isn’t a character when he very much is. Mainly I just don’t like it when people act as if he can’t be expressive or as if he doesn’t have the requirements to be his own character. He at least blinks now and his limbs can move in every direction.

I know the other characters have specific traits to them, but it’s still vague enough to fall in line with a lot of people and with some people’s statements about Steve. I think Ninten, Ness’s predecessor, was even intended for the player to project themselves onto at least somewhat originally. Anti-Steve people may say he’s just the default skin, but no, Mojang still treats him as a notable character and some of the stuff from other characters are default things, too. There was at least something in the Lego Club July-August 2016 magazine stating that Steve is a miner, builder and alchemist while Alex is an explorer, builder and hunter; and that Steve is Alex’s boyfriend (though to be honest I don’t know what Mojang thinks of this but I assume LEGO would’ve needed approval for this stuff...).

You're definitely not wrong. After all, both Ninten and Ness were pretty arbitrarily chosen names. I think that in the case of Mother and Mother 2 (And applies to Zelda as well), the game's locales and characters have so much personality to go around that they're projected upon the silent protagonist. Does Ness say anything throughout the course of Earthbound? Not really. But the people and setting of Eagleland sure as hell do. It gives players an idea of their protagonist, or leads them to imagine the type of kid who would be roaming the world meeting zany characters and dealing with some seriously real ****. The world literally relies on him. That's a lot of pressure to place on a blank face.

I think that's why people are less accepting of Steve. Minecraft is a game where character is instilled upon the world- not by the protagonist - or any NPC's - but the player themselves. And while it does take away from the character Steve's personality, it also makes him very unique. He's perfectly representative of his game, a blank slate begging to be given life by the creativity the game calls for from the start.

mfw I remember this is Geno's thread...

 

[TheCJBrine]

Sure the microtransactions seems to have been a sore spot for the core Minecraft community (gotta check with TheCJBrine on this to verify) but that doesn't seem to have stopped it.

I’ve seen people that don’t like the microtransactions, but far more people seem to not care. I guess a lot of the stuff in the store is quality to them, but most of it is also made by community members as a way to make some money, I guess a sort-of job. Some of them also have their stuff like texture packs available for free (like the Jolicraft creator) since Bedrock Edition still lets you install packs and skins that you’ve downloaded for it elsewhere (though this is just for the Windows 10 version as far as I know).

 

[Firox]

To shift the topic back to Geno, I wanted to pose a question for all of you. Which do you think would inspire MORE DLC sales:

1) A character's moveset/competitive viability
or
2 ) A character's pre-existing popularity

Even if Geno isn't necessarily the best known character among the gaming community at large, I would argue that his potentially kick-ass moveset could easily win people over. What do you think?

 

[Dinoman96]

Here's something to consider in regards to Minecraft:

Monster Hunter is an extremely popular video game franchise that too stars customizable avatar characters. Sakurai got the OK from Capcom to use it for Smash Ultimate. He could of easily made a playable character for it.

...but instead, he opted just to represent it through Rathalos, who appears as an assist trophy and a boss in Classic Mode and World of Light. Which, when you think about it, makes sense. The real stars of Monster Hunter obviously aren't the blank slate avatar characters you play as, but the giant monsters you go out and hunt, so just having Rathalos appear as a boss is actually a pretty sensible way to represent the essence of MH without having to dedicate development time and resources to a playable character.

I'm not saying that Steve won't happen, I do think Minecraft's shear popularity could convince Sakurai/Nintendo to make an exception for him, but I'm just saying that I wouldn't be surprised if he was passed over for the same reasons a playable MH rep presumably was. I get the feeling Sakurai may not think avatar characters make for strong guest fighters.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

This backs up a claim I made shortly after the Banjo presentation that when they say "collaboration", they mean games from third parties as well as Nintendo properties. Of course, there are tons and tons of third party spirits - a surprising amount, in fact. However, there are probably a thousand from first and second party Nintendo titles... I would at least say that they make up the bulk of the spirits in the game.

I'd use this as official proof that the next wave of DLC fighters, or fighter pass or whatever we end up getting is in no way guaranteed to be third party, which is fine by me. We're really running out of realistic third party reps worth putting in, I think.


I'm thinking he's in.

But none of the third party picks in the current pass except maybe Terry are "realistic third party picks" so I really don't think we are even close to running out of potential third party reps. Not saying we won't get any first/second party reps moving forward, but I don't think they're guaranteed by any means or honestly even going to comprise much of the DLC but I could be wrong and would be totally ok if I were because there are a good bit of first party picks I would like to see.

 

[TheCJBrine]

To shift the topic back to Geno, I wanted to pose a question for all of you. Which do you think would inspire MORE DLC sales:

1) A character's moveset/competitive viability
or
2 ) A character's pre-existing popularity

Even if Geno isn't necessarily the best known character among the gaming community at large, I would argue that his potentially kick-*** moveset could easily win people over. What do you think?

From his design alone, I can already see him gaining people’s interest, so yes.

Here's something to consider in regards to Minecraft:

Monster Hunter is an extremely popular video game franchise that too stars customizable avatar characters. Sakurai got the OK from Capcom to use it for Smash Ultimate. He could of easily made a playable character for it.

...but instead, he opted just to represent it through Rathalos, who appears as an assist trophy and a boss in Classic Mode and World of Light. Which, when you think about it, makes sense. The real stars of Monster Hunter obviously aren't the blank slate avatar characters you play as, but the giant monsters you go out and hunt, so just having Rathalos appear as a boss is actually a pretty sensible way to represent the essence of MH without having to dedicate development time and resources to a playable character.

I'm not saying that Steve won't happen, I do think Minecraft's shear popularity could convince Sakurai/Nintendo to make an exception for him, but I'm just saying that I wouldn't be surprised if he was passed over for the same reasons a playable MH rep presumably was. I get the feeling Sakurai may not think avatar characters make for strong guest fighters.

Do the Monster Hunters have their own names, though? I’m sure they have unique weapons and stuff, but if MH is about the monsters, Minecraft is about what the player can do in/with their world. Steve can represent Minecraft through placing blocks on the stage (with balanced limits) and use a wide range of unique items and functional blocks like chests, TNT, anvils, pistons, etc., maybe even some mobs. Steve and Alex are also official characters even if the player can be something else. Sakurai also loves Minecraft, and he and Nintendo have surely seen the Steve demand if they saw the Sans demand (even if it wasn’t enough for a full fighter). I do think a MH character can possibly happen at some point, though, maybe the next Smash; it’s possible he just went for Rathalos as it is like MH’s icon, similar to Steve, Alex, and the creeper.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Ignore this message

 

[Sour Supreme]

To shift the topic back to Geno, I wanted to pose a question for all of you. Which do you think would inspire MORE DLC sales:

1) A character's moveset/competitive viability
or
2 ) A character's pre-existing popularity

Even if Geno isn't necessarily the best known character among the gaming community at large, I would argue that his potentially kick-*** moveset could easily win people over. What do you think?

Pre-existing popularity for sure. The amount of Mii Gunners popping up simply because of the Sans costume is proof of this. How many times have you seen people say, "I don't care if (said character) is trash I'm still going to main them."

Not to mention, everyone who uses their console for competetive setups will most certainly be purchasing all DLC fighters.

 

[Firox]

Pre-existing popularity for sure. The amount of Mii Gunners popping up simply because of the Sans costume is proof of this. How many times have you seen people say, "I don't care if (said character) is trash I'm still going to main them.

Not to mention, everyone who uses their console for competetive setups will most certainly be purchasing all DLC fighters.

Hmm. Both are really solid points. Well said. It's true that even if a character potentially sucks, the competitive community is almost obligated to buy them anyway. Funny how that is.

 

[Deleted member]

To shift the topic back to Geno, I wanted to pose a question for all of you. Which do you think would inspire MORE DLC sales:

1) A character's moveset/competitive viability
or
2 ) A character's pre-existing popularity

Even if Geno isn't necessarily the best known character among the gaming community at large, I would argue that his potentially kick-*** moveset could easily win people over. What do you think?

A moveset can take even the most mundane character to the next level. It isn't even about competitive viability, it's just how cool it looks to play them. Do you think anyone would care about Mr. Game and Watch or ROB if their moveset didn't speak to the players? More often than not, when a new character is announced or discussed, the first question anyone has is "how will they play?", and I think that's for good reason.

People are gonna love him regardless of how little they wanted him to get into the game.

The problem here is that Ness, Link and the Dragon Quest heroes are established characters of their home series. No matter what name you give them, they'll still have the same clothes, same hair style, same looks so even though they have a blank personality to let Players integrate themselves into the game as that character, they are not truly you.

With Steve, since his look is based on what texture you give him, He loses his identity completely when you pick a different skin. Say you give him a Mario skin, now he is no longer Steve since he has lost all of the defining features that make him Steve and the only defining feature left from Steve (Which is being blocky) is shared with everything else in the Minecraft world.

Villager is in a similar boat but not to the same extreme as Steve. You can change the Villager's clothes, hair style, gender and you can make them look like your favourite character but you can never make it so much that the Villager becomes indistinguishable from their identity. They'll just be a Villager dressed up like Mario because clothes aren't treated as skins like in Minecraft.

I get where you're coming from, but the argument about dressing him up to be whoever is flat. Steve is more of an avatar character than anyone, including Villager, because unless something has changed dramatically about Minecraft, Steve just isn't even a character. By yourself, he's the only human entity spawned into an endless expanse of monsters and Squidwards. There's no reason for him to be there. He has no motivation other than survival. His name isn't even really Steve, it's "Steve?", because Mojang didn't really intend for him to be anyone. He's you. Villager is a young adult going out to forge their own way in the world, Link came to Hyrule for one reason or another in every game, Ness, for being virtually a blank slate is still a character who had likes and hobbies and friends before a rhinoceros beetle told him to prevent the destruction of the world. Every character in Smash is a character - they have motivations, a backstory, anything. Steve's just some guy. Sakurai could put himself into the game at that point.

 

[Firox]

A moveset can take even the most mundane character to the next level. It isn't even about competitive viability, it's just how cool it looks to play them. Do you think anyone would care about Mr. Game and Watch or ROB if their moveset didn't speak to the players? More often than not, when a new character is announced or discussed, the first question anyone has is "how will they play?", and I think that's for good reason.

People are gonna love him regardless of how little they wanted him to get into the game.

My thoughts exactly. Heck, I was on the fence about getting Hero until I saw how fun he was to play. There was no way I was going to miss out on that. Likewise, I'm not a huge fan of Terry, but his moveset is what will make or break the sale for me.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Let's see what's going on in the Geno thread today-

>Steve discourse

Forgive the meme, but I'm genuinely so tired of this topic. I don't even care about Steve anymore; to be honest, I'm in the same boat as a lot of Geno anti-fans where I kinda want Steve to get in just so we can stop talking about him.

 

[JarBear]

That is a really good question. It is kind of a mix bag when I think about it. The case and point is Hero and Banjo for me.

The Hero character did not excite me much, only because I am not a huge Dragon Quest fan. (I did play III on GBC and played some parts of 8, so I have nothing against the series) However, playing him with his move-set is pretty fun.

As for Banjo, being a fan of the series and the character, it didn't matter too much for the play style since "Holy crap it's Bear & Bird!" That's when I purchased the whole pass.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I get where you're coming from, but the argument about dressing him up to be whoever is flat. Steve is more of an avatar character than anyone, including Villager, because unless something has changed dramatically about Minecraft, Steve just isn't even a character. By yourself, he's the only human entity spawned into an endless expanse of monsters and Squidwards. There's no reason for him to be there. He has no motivation other than survival. His name isn't even really Steve, it's "Steve?", because Mojang didn't really intend for him to be anyone. He's you. Villager is a young adult going out to forge their own way in the world, Link came to Hyrule for one reason or another in every game, Ness, for being virtually a blank slate is still a character who had likes and hobbies and friends before a rhinoceros beetle told him to prevent the destruction of the world. Every character in Smash is a character - they have motivations, a backstory, anything. Steve's just some guy. Sakurai could put himself into the game at that point.

What Mojang intended has changed, because Steve and Alex are their official names and have been for years now. They are still characters in their own right and have been called as such as well as “notable” by one of their writers for the website. They’re not “just” you anymore because they’ve given them their own identity, so they’re like Link and Ness just with less traits.

The AC villager can be just a laid back individual wanting a simple life in town. Minecraft is about what you do in/with your world with way more options than AC, so Steve and Alex can be the last survivors or something or whatever else. They were at least given a bit of personality in the Lego July-August 2016 magazine and having a name and design is still a character anyway.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

The problem here is that Ness, Link and the Dragon Quest heroes are established characters of their home series. No matter what name you give them, they'll still have the same clothes, same hair style, same looks so even though they have a blank personality to let Players integrate themselves into the game as that character, they are not truly you.

With Steve, since his look is based on what texture you give him, He loses his identity completely when you pick a different skin. Say you give him a Mario skin, now he is no longer Steve since he has lost all of the defining features that make him Steve and the only defining feature left from Steve (Which is being blocky) is shared with everything else in the Minecraft world.

Villager is in a similar boat but not to the same extreme as Steve. You can change the Villager's clothes, hair style, gender and you can make them look like your favourite character but you can never make it so much that the Villager becomes indistinguishable from their identity. They'll just be a Villager dressed up like Mario because clothes aren't treated as skins like in Minecraft.

All I gotta say on the matter is that Steve is the mascot of Minecraft. There's no loophole, no argument to be made here. Yes you can change the skin and remove Steve from the game but that does not change the fact that Steve is still the mascot. Sakurai isn't going to sit there and be like "hmmm... You can change the skin and erase Steve. Guess Steve can't be in Smash!" I'm not 100% sure if that's what you're implying, but that's kinda ridiculous to me.

I seriously don't understand the issue people have. Is the world going to collapse if they make Steve a character? Who gives a **** if you can change the skin, there's no issue with adding him as a character with a Minecraft themed moveset. All the arguments against him just seem like people grasping at straws to try and ensure he never makes it in. There's no reason Steve cannot be a character.

 

[Deleted member]

What Mojang intended has changed, because Steve and Alex are their official names and have been for years now. They are still characters in their own right and have been called as such as well as “notable” by one of their writers for the website.

The AC villager can be just a laid back individual wanting a simple life in town. Minecraft is about what you do in/with your world with way more options than AC, so Steve can be the last survivor or something or whatever else.

Can be. "Once upon a time Steve was the last survivor of the Creepocalypse and now has to rebuild society with his infinite life and unending desire to build by raising Squidwards in a door fortress" is just as canon as "Me and my buddies built a bunch of pixel art out of colored wool in creative mode, check it out"

Villager is a laid back individual who lives a simple life in a town full of animals. Or that one time when he was the mayor but never really did his job and foisted all of the responsibilities on the busybody Isabelle.

Steve is prime time Mii Swordsman and there's not much else about it.

My thoughts exactly. Heck, I was on the fence about getting Hero until I saw how fun he was to play. There was no way I was going to miss out on that. Likewise, I'm not a huge fan of Terry, but his moveset is what will make or break the sale for me.

I'd be curious to know how many individual DLC purchases are out there compared to just buying the Fighters Pass. I got the pass because I use my setup for tournaments and it was 5 bucks cheaper to go ahead and get it, and ultimately there's not going to be a character who I dislike enough to not buy. In terms of being hyped for someone, though, I think the moveset means a lot even if you don't intend to play them. Compare the love of Captain Falcon's moveset to the amount of people who play him.

 

[BZocky]

Let's say since Pauline will be introduced with the NY Event the rest of the events will have characters that compliment the real world location. If Geno gets in Mario Kart Tour, where would he coincide with?

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

I think for me, gameplay will always be the more important factor. I am not familiar with any of the DLC characters so far on a personal level, yet I enjoy playing them all and get excited for them because I want to know how they play and if their playstyle speaks to me and how they bring something new to the game.

The characters that I want most in the game are almost entirely the result of moveset potential and I didn't even realize how popular many characters were until I came to Smashboards not even that long ago which is why I so vehemently agree with ericthegamerman when it comes to the "Smash bubble effect" because I was one of those people who never voiced my opinion or followed speculation until recently.

 

[Deleted member]

Let's say since Pauline will be introduced with the NY Event the rest of the events will have characters that compliment the real world location. If Geno gets in Mario Kart Tour, where would he coincide with?

The International Space Station is gonna have a Mario Kart event?!