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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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TheBeastHimself

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Can be. "Once upon a time Steve was the last survivor of the Creepocalypse and now has to rebuild society with his infinite life and unending desire to build by raising Squidwards in a door fortress" is just as canon as "Me and my buddies built a bunch of pixel art out of colored wool in creative mode, check it out"

Villager is a laid back individual who lives a simple life in a town full of animals. Or that one time when he was the mayor but never really did his job and foisted all of the responsibilities on the busybody Isabelle.

Steve is prime time Mii Swordsman and there's not much else about it.
Since when did having a fleshed out character and personality become a requirement to join Smash? Game and Watch begs to differ. Even if you can't envision it, Steve is the face of Minecraft. Look at all the game promotional material and merchandising. Steve is everywhere. On top of that, people love Minecraft. So what Smash laws are being broken by adding Steve? He can be his own character and have one of the most creative move-sets in the game, but sooo many people want him only as a Mii Costume because "it's Steve from Minecraft lmaoo". (Not tryna sound aggressive, I just really cannot see why this is such a big deal).
 
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EricTheGamerman

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Here's something to consider in regards to Minecraft:

Monster Hunter is an extremely popular video game franchise that too stars customizable avatar characters. Sakurai got the OK from Capcom to use it for Smash Ultimate. He could of easily made a playable character for it.

...but instead, he opted just to represent it through Rathalos, who appears as an assist trophy and a boss in Classic Mode and World of Light. Which, when you think about it, makes sense. The real stars of Monster Hunter obviously aren't the blank slate avatar characters you play as, but the giant monsters you go out and hunt, so just having Rathalos appear as a boss is actually a pretty sensible way to represent the essence of MH without having to dedicate development time and resources to a playable character.

I'm not saying that Steve won't happen, I do think Minecraft's shear popularity could convince Sakurai/Nintendo to make an exception for him, but I'm just saying that I wouldn't be surprised if he was passed over for the same reasons a playable MH rep presumably was. I get the feeling Sakurai may not think avatar characters make for strong guest fighters.
This wildly assumes that the decision to pass up Monster Hunter as a playable character was solely because Sakurai doesn't like the idea of avatar characters for guest fighters. Hero and Joker are largely avatar fighters from their own games and I've already made my argument that Pac-Man exists as one of the least defined characters in Smash period and his legacy came from being an undefined character for the most part. We have plenty of examples of Sakurai getting the rights to characters and not making them playable; Geno chief among them alongside the likes of Bomberman, Shovel Knight, and others. Just because a character isn't currently playable in Ultimate does not mean that they will never work as a character in the future or that Sakurai even sees them as not appropriate for the game, they just were not able to take priority in base game Ultimate. Nothing in base game precludes the possibilities of future DLC and the base game was made with a limited project plan in mind. Sakurai only had time it seems to really flesh out one big new third party universe, so all of the additional ones got lesser content. It's very possible we may have seen a Monster Hunter as a playable character in an alternate timeline where there was more time for original characters for example.

Priority is everything to character inclusions in Smash, and you're wildly extrapolating from Rathalos' inclusion to make this point. "The real stars of the game" isn't much of a compelling argument when we've seen Sakurai actively choose to incorporate franchises with playable characters that aren't the "real stars" of their respective games. Sure, Joker is liked, but if you ask people why they like Persona 5, Joker himself is one the least consequential reasons for that enjoyment.
 

TheCJBrine

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Can be. "Once upon a time Steve was the last survivor of the Creepocalypse and now has to rebuild society with his infinite life and unending desire to build by raising Squidwards in a door fortress" is just as canon as "Me and my buddies built a bunch of pixel art out of colored wool in creative mode, check it out"

Villager is a laid back individual who lives a simple life in a town full of animals. Or that one time when he was the mayor but never really did his job and foisted all of the responsibilities on the busybody Isabelle.

Steve is prime time Mii Swordsman and there's not much else about it.
Is there really anything canon about the Villager? You can also go around annoying other villagers by hitting them with tools and by making pitfalls and whatever, or just spend your time collecting things, etc.

I still don’t see why you’re ignoring the fact that he’s officially a character and a mascot, I’ve even explained how they treat them and what an official Minecraft/Mojang employee/writer said on the website’s news. They have a character creator now and so he’s not much different from Villager. Don’t tell me you’d actually want a stupid mii costume for him with bendy limbs.
 
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EricTheGamerman

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Is there really anything canon about the Villager? You can also go around annoying other villagers by hitting them with tools and by making pitfalls and whatever, or just spend your time collecting things, etc.

I still don’t see why you’re ignoring the fact that he’s officially a character and a mascot. They have a character creator now and so he’s not much different from Villager. Don’t tell me you’d actually want a stupid mii costume for him with bendy limbs.
No, the only “canon” stuff from AC is that you move to a new town and have to pay off a debt for your house. In New Leaf you get installed as mayor in the city. That’s pretty much it as far as actually defined features of Villagers in Animal Crossing. Everything else is up to you and that’s the beauty of Animal Crossing.

Much like Minecraft.
 
D

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Is there really anything canon about the Villager? You can also go around annoying other villagers by hitting them with tools and by making pitfalls and whatever, or just spend your time collecting things, etc.

I still don’t see why you’re ignoring the fact that he’s officially a character and a mascot. They have a character creator now and so he’s not much different from Villager. Don’t tell me you’d actually want a stupid mii costume for him with bendy limbs.
Since when did having a fleshed out character and personality become a requirement to join Smash? Game and Watch begs to differ. Even if you can't envision it, Steve is the face of Minecraft. Look at all the game promotional material and merchandising. Steve is everywhere. On top of that, people love Minecraft. So what Smash laws are being broken by adding Steve? He can be his own character and have one of the most creative move-sets in the game, but sooo many people want him only as a Mii Costume because "it's Steve from Minecraft lmaoo". (Not tryna sound aggressive, I just really cannot see why this is such a big deal).
I'm not arguing whether or not he's a mascot. I don't care that he's a mascot, or the face of the game, or anything like that (though in terms of toys and plush items, I'd argue Creeper or Pig is the face of the game). Just saying he's not much of a character. Even Mr. Game and Watch was an average joe doing a job or something.

Look, I just don't want him. He's a fine Mii Costume but I think Nintendo's gotten as much from Microsoft as they're gonna get for Smash.
 

TheBeastHimself

No time for tea, uncle, gotta capture the Avatar!
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I'm not arguing whether or not he's a mascot. I don't care that he's a mascot, or the face of the game, or anything like that (though in terms of toys and plush items, I'd argue Creeper or Pig is the face of the game). Just saying he's not much of a character. Even Mr. Game and Watch was an average joe doing a job or something.

Look, I just don't want him. He's a fine Mii Costume but I think Nintendo's gotten as much from Microsoft as they're gonna get for Smash.
I think your opinion of not wanting Steve in Smash is fair, but you can't argue that he can't be in the game due to not being a character with some sort of backstory. We're talking about video games who cares about that none of it is real. If you don't want him in the game that's completely fair though, it's just that your arguments against him don't hold.
 

TheCJBrine

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I'm not arguing whether or not he's a mascot. I don't care that he's a mascot, or the face of the game, or anything like that (though in terms of toys and plush items, I'd argue Creeper or Pig is the face of the game). Just saying he's not much of a character. Even Mr. Game and Watch was an average joe doing a job or something.

Look, I just don't want him. He's a fine Mii Costume but I think Nintendo's gotten as much from Microsoft as they're gonna get for Smash.
Steve has a lot of toys and other stuff. He’s even on shirts. He, Alex, and the Creeper are the main faces of the game.

He’d be a horrid Mii Costume since he wouldn’t have unique animations. No Steve doesn’t mean someone else would’ve gotten in. I don’t care if you don’t like him or want him but all this ain’t fair.

And the Game & Watch characters were all generic cartoony humans doing whatever job or were in certain situations, did the main guy even exist before Melee?
 
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D

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I think your opinion of not wanting Steve in Smash is fair, but you can't argue that he can't be in the game due to not being a character with some sort of backstory. We're talking about video games who cares about that none of it is real. If you don't want him in the game that's completely fair though, it's just that your arguments against him don't hold.
It's super weird that anyone wants him if we're being honest. Like, there's just nothing to like about "Steve". I get liking Minecraft, but Steve himself represents like... absolutely nothing about Minecraft. Wanting a playable Minecraft rep is one of those instances where I'd imagine wanting a block to be a playable character more than the avatar that you barely ever see. It's the kind of whack thing Sakurai would turn into a character, too.
 

Glitch-EGamer

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Hey, can we just yeet Steve somewhere else? He's a cool character with a moderate chance of getting in Smash. End of story.

Talking about Geno and DLC in general, none of these characters in the pass really vibe with me from a personal perspective. I just like either (1) their designs or (2) how they connect to Smash. Every character feels different to me from a visual pov. I want a visually unique roster. I couldn't careless about moveset for the most part. I also like how all characters are kind of connected to Smash in some fashion through different means.

Joker: P5 inspired the unique final smash piece
Hero: Japan and Sakurai like the character
Banjo & Kazooie: The fans wanted him
Terry Bogard: SNK's games helped inspire Smash Bros

I wonder what the future will hold for the DLC
 

TheCJBrine

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It's super weird that anyone wants him if we're being honest. Like, there's just nothing to like about "Steve". I get liking Minecraft, but Steve himself represents like... absolutely nothing about Minecraft. Wanting a playable Minecraft rep is one of those instances where I'd imagine wanting a block to be a playable character more than the avatar that you barely ever see. It's the kind of whack thing Sakurai would turn into a character, too.
Steve can do everything in the game. It makes no sense to have a block and that’s just being trollish at this point, he can place blocks down and use many different, unique items. People like him because of liking his design and seeing him as the main character of their favorite game. He has been seen as the face for nearly 10 years.
 
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Evil Trapezium

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You can do whatever you want with Ness regardless of defaults outside of his appearance.

It's also odd to me to bring up the ideas of characters being restricted by their game. Like, yes, you can't kill people in Dragon Quest, but if you decide that all you want to do is kill monsters in the field like a genocidal maniac, you can still do that.
That is not true though. Sure you can go around killing monsters all you like but the game doesn't expect you to do that. It expect you to follow the story told and if you do not follow what it tells you to do then it will block access to the next area. You have to beat up the police force to be allowed to go to Twoson, you have to defeat the Happy Happyism cult to rescue Paula, you have to get your friend to piggyback off from to escape winters boarding school as Jeff, etc. Therefore it is canonical for those characters to progress with the story.

Minecraft gives you no objectives and lets you explore the world without restrictions which means the game is entirely optional.

The home sick is the only thing that's forced on to you by the gameplay. It's such a minor thing that I don't think it's really all that distinguishable at the end of the day.
Regardless if homesickness is a minor status ailment, it's still part of Ness' character that is unique to him and can happen without player input.

Arguing for defaults in the case of Ness as a show of character, but then arguing against the default nature of Steve as a skin in Minecraft seems odd.
Okay you got me there on that point but still, Ness has an objective that he needs to complete, he is brave as he is required to venture into caves and fight boss monsters, has a love for baseball considering he uses a baseball bat for weapons, he is good at making friends as such with Paula, Jeff and Poo.

The characters are extremely blank slates that you're allowed to insert as much into as you want. Steve isn't really that different as a default skin except that "story" in terms of exposition doesn't play a role and it gives the player more creative freedom in how they choose to play and interact with the world. I don't buy the idea that these are super different concepts between the two characters. They are a vehicle for the gameplay that the player can customize to varying degrees within the limits of the gameplay's freedom. Yes, there's more definition to the ones listed, but they do serve the same core purpose and function.
Like I said before, you can imagine yourself as those character but Ness, Link and Dragon Quest heroes still have their own personalities, no matter how small they may be so they will never truly be you. While with Steve, he has no discernible personality, interests, favourite foods, goals to complete, an established alignment to good or evil, etc and can even change his skin to be a completely different character entirely which is something none of the three mentioned before can do.

All I gotta say on the matter is that Steve is the mascot of Minecraft. There's no loophole, no argument to be made here. Yes you can change the skin and remove Steve from the game but that does not change the fact that Steve is still the mascot. Sakurai isn't going to sit there and be like "hmmm... You can change the skin and erase Steve. Guess Steve can't be in Smash!" I'm not 100% sure if that's what you're implying, but that's kinda ridiculous to me.

I seriously don't understand the issue people have. Is the world going to collapse if they make Steve a character? Who gives a **** if you can change the skin, there's no issue with adding him as a character with a Minecraft themed moveset. All the arguments against him just seem like people grasping at straws to try and ensure he never makes it in. There's no reason Steve cannot be a character.
You've entirely missed the point of my comment.
 
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Firox

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♪♫ DIGLETT-DIG, DIGLETT-DIG, TRIO! TRIO! TRIO! DIGLETT-DIG, DIGLETT-DIG, TRIO! TRIO! TRIO! ♫

(This song was somehow in my head. Now it's in yours....)
 

SpiritOfRuin

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I'm gonna make this one comment on Steve and that's it because I'm quite tired of seeing the conversation here stuck on him already.

I admit, although I was never against his inclusion, Steve USED TO BE a bottom of the barrel choice in my eyes. Steve is still not a character that I really want, but I definitely support him now. For me, it never had anything to do with him being an avatar and I totally understood the desire for him from the standpoint of how popular and successful Minecraft is. I was worried about how he would really differentiate himself as a fighter until I really started thinking about what kind of moveset he could have.

When I made my moveset for Crash Bandicoot, he had his down B be the ability to place a TNT or Nitro crate and they could be interacted with and set off in different ways which added a TON of strategy and quirkiness to his moveset in just that one move. Now if Steve can place blocks with limitations, have a ore gathering and crafting mechanic, and have TNT and other various fun items then yeah he's going to be crazy fun and offer a lot of new stuff to smash and have a lot of interesting mechanics to differentiate him. At the end of the day, even though Sakurai does seem to have a stance against avatar characters for the most part, if the moveset and mechanic potential is there he's shown that he will go for it (Villager, Piranha Plant, etc). The question is if Microsoft is willing to play ball again which I am not sure if they would or not.
 

JarBear

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I wonder what the future will hold for the DLC
I've been wondering about that as well. There's been so much talk about Ryu and Doom Guy ... which who knows for the Fighter's Pass final character.

I am curious about Lloyd Irving actually for the final fighter. When it comes to "Smash Characters," who I personally like to see it comes down to a combination of my like for the character, series and his/her/it's Nintendo historical impact. (nothing against video came characters outside of Nintendo or who never have or will appear on a Nintendo system ... I just like to have Smash Bros. all things Nintendo Consoles ... you've at least seen (or will see) the particular fighter at some time on a Nintendo system. Again, just MY preference for Smash Characters)

So for Lloyd, Tales of Symphonia was a very popular game on the Gamecube and was one of the few JRPG games on that system. Also, that game is still a very popular one in the Tales fandom. Granted yes, it is another "anime swordsman" which will rub some people off because of the amount of Fire Emblem characters ... but that isn't a factor for me.

The question is, does the FIghter's Pass only mean fighters that have/had ZERO representation in Smash in all games or just in Ultimate? Lloyd Mii costume was in Smash 4 but not so far is not in Ultimate and there isn't any music or Spirits of him or the Tales series.

As for future DLC ... Just give me Geno (who's only the fighter i've been begging for, other characters were fantastic to have like Ridley, K Rool and Banjo) and I am done asking. Lloyd is no where near my need like Geno ... but would be a welcomed edition.
 
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Ovaltine

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So, I finally fought Geno's spirit for the first time. I avoided it out of admitted bitterness about his spirit's existence (and my general distaste for spirits as a whole), but since things are looking brighter, I was happy to fight the spirit without feeling grumbly about his fate... and...

... that was extremely underwhelming. Also, Sheik is an even worse pick for Geno than I ever could have realized without actually going into the battle. Holy hell am I glad we're likely getting at least an upgraded costume, because — and I'm sorry for being this harsh, trust me, I LOVE Ultimate and am so grateful for this game's existence — this was a terrible way to represent him. Whoof.
 

EricTheGamerman

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It's super weird that anyone wants him if we're being honest. Like, there's just nothing to like about "Steve". I get liking Minecraft, but Steve himself represents like... absolutely nothing about Minecraft. Wanting a playable Minecraft rep is one of those instances where I'd imagine wanting a block to be a playable character more than the avatar that you barely ever see. It's the kind of whack thing Sakurai would turn into a character, too.
I mean, people form emotional attachments to video games and want to see them get the royal treatment in Smash like everybody else. We see @CJBrine for example actually appreciating Steve the character as he has been depicted in Minecraft media (which is a thing regardless of how many people want to believe it or not). That's all it has to be. I mean, long before I wanted Geno, I wanted Super Mario RPG stuff in Smash as a whole because I had an emotional attachment to the game and Geno was the best way to make that happen. I came to respect Geno more as an individual character later on, but that doesn't negate the fact that I originally wanted the game to get the full treatment including a playable character specifically centered around Super Mario RPG content. Steve can represent all kinds of fun stuff from the game itself if you want him to, and Sakurai has shown us, that yes, he can turn things into amazing characters for Smash with ROB, Mr. Game & Watch, etc.

That is not true though. Sure you can go around killing monsters all you like but the game doesn't expect you to do that. It expect you to follow the story told and if you do not follow what it tells you to do then it will block access to the next area. You have to beat up the police force to be allowed to go to Twoson, you have to defeat the Happy Happyism cult to rescue Paula, you have to get your friend to piggyback off from to escape winters boarding school as Jeff, etc. Therefore it is canonical for those characters to progress with the story.

Minecraft gives you no objectives and lets you explore the world without restrictions which means the game is entirely optional.

Regardless if homesickness is a minor status ailment, it's still part of Ness' character that is unique to him and can happen without player input.

Okay you got me there on that point but still, Ness has an objective that he needs to complete, he is brave as he is required to venture into caves and fight boss monsters, has a love for baseball considering he uses a baseball bat for weapons, he is good at making friends as such with Paula, Jeff and Poo.

Like I said before, you can imagine yourself as those character but Ness, Link and Dragon Quest heroes still have their own personalities, no matter how small they may be so they will never truly be you. While with Steve, he has no discernible personality, interests, favourite foods, goals to complete, an established alignment to good or evil, etc and can even change his skin to be a completely different character entirely which is something none of the three mentioned before can do.
See, I don't think Ness' home sickness is all that mechanically different from Steve's hunger. It's just a glorified (unseen) resource bar you have to manage. Yes, it colors his character ever so slightly, but not by much.

Also, Minecraft gives you objectives like the Achievement List (which is more directly connected to Minecraft than in most games) and there are things to do like kill the Ender Dragon that are not directly communicated to you as the player, but serves as one of the "goals for your world." Like, the entirety of the original Dragon Quest is just going to kill one Dragon too. Along the way you have to get better gear so that you'll actually survive that fight. The only real difference is there's an extremely minor amount of characterization you get along the way.

I don't see why the freedom a game offers suddenly makes it less narrative-ly less deserving. Yes, there is no official language of communication in the game other than through grunts, but is that experience really defined differently or any less valid than sweeping narratives. If you subscribe to the ideas of the medium is the message (you're free to claim Minecraft has no message, just as I'm free to claim it does have one about creativity and exploration,etc.), then there's a little bit more to Minecraft and video games in general that you can really dig into. I think there's a super compelling point to be made of games that use gameplay to tell their world and story are more compelling than those that lean on the trappings of other artistic mediums (text dumps are famous in old video games and how many modern games resort to long cut scenes that are glorified animated movies). Yes, it's a randomly generated world that has very few limits and that you're free to operate in as you see fit, but there's still an experience for the player to be had and goals that you can choose to partake in. All game goals are optional at the end of the day too. Like, yes, developers assume you will participate in their curated content... but then you have people deciding to act out their lives as NPCs in Skyrim despite how much "true content" there is to be experienced. I just don't think there's all that much that separates Minecraft and other titles with self-inserts, and that such a difference isn't really important in the long run.

I'm gonna make this one comment on Steve and that's it because I'm quite tired of seeing the conversation here stuck on him already.

I admit, although I was never against his inclusion, Steve USED TO BE a bottom of the barrel choice in my eyes. Steve is still not a character that I really want, but I definitely support him now. For me, it never had anything to do with him being an avatar and I totally understood the desire for him from the standpoint of how popular and successful Minecraft is. I was worried about how he would really differentiate himself as a fighter until I really started thinking about what kind of moveset he could have.

When I made my moveset for Crash Bandicoot, he had his down B be the ability to place a TNT or Nitro crate and they could be interacted with and set off in different ways which added a TON of strategy and quirkiness to his moveset in just that one move. Now if Steve can place blocks with limitations, have a ore gathering and crafting mechanic, and have TNT and other various fun items then yeah he's going to be crazy fun and offer a lot of new stuff to smash and have a lot of interesting mechanics to differentiate him. At the end of the day, even though Sakurai does seem to have a stance against avatar characters for the most part, if the moveset and mechanic potential is there he's shown that he will go for it (Villager, Piranha Plant, etc). The question is if Microsoft is willing to play ball again which I am not sure if they would or not.
Why would Microsoft be unwilling to play ball? They're apparently the easiest developer/publisher to work with in regards to Smash, Minecraft is already on all the modern Nintendo systems, and they treat it as a major IP in many ways.
 

Firox

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It's super weird that anyone wants him if we're being honest. Like, there's just nothing to like about "Steve". I get liking Minecraft, but Steve himself represents like... absolutely nothing about Minecraft. Wanting a playable Minecraft rep is one of those instances where I'd imagine wanting a block to be a playable character more than the avatar that you barely ever see. It's the kind of whack thing Sakurai would turn into a character, too.
LOL You must not have been around back when I was arguing with someone as to whether a tetris block should be a playable fighter. (I tried joking about the fact that the blocks didn't even have limbs and somehow we ended up on the topic of telekinetic potatoes. Don't ask.) Long story short, anything you can imagine, no matter how seemingly impossible or absurd as you might think it is, SOMEONE will avidly support it. Heck, there's still people out there that can't fathom the idea of anyone wanting a possessed wooden doll from a decades-old Mario spin-off to get into Smash. As I've said before, one man's legend is another man's "who?".
 
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ForsakenM

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Sep 14, 2018
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I'm sorry, did you just compare being homesick to NEEDING TO EAT TO SURVIVE?

I'm gonna need you to just stop right there.

I don't care if it's a game mechanic or not. There is a difference between missing your home and family and NEEDING TO EAT TO LIVE!

They are not comparable in any other form than being game mechanics. One is an actual trait of a person, and the other is basic needs.

Remember when I said it seems like you always pick the weak argument? This is what I mean. There is actually no argument here.

As for 'Steve' someone already said it best earlier: I think that his inclusion as a playable character isn't the best way to rep the game in Ultimate. I think MineCraft's impact on gaming easily qualifies it for representation in Smash and I've gotten over not wanting him because I've gotten over thinking Minecraft is for kids. If he shows up I won't be mad, and if he doesn't but we get a stage or a Mii Costume I think that will be perfectly good enough. I like the possible moveset that could come with him, but a lack of his inclusion will not bother me.

Also, there is no argument here about whether 'Steve?' is a character or not: he's not, end of story. He is nothing more than an avatar the player uses to play the game. He has no personality nor backstory/lore. You needs those to be a character. Villager has both backstory and personality. So does Ness, Link, even DQ protagonist...hell Game and Watch is an amalgamate of personality! Steve is to Minecraft as everyone's avatar in Gaia Online was to the user: most of them had no lore and were just there to look cool/pretty and represent the person behind the screen...until the MMO came out where your character had dialogue and a story.

If Mojang/Microsoft comes out tomorrow and releases a game starring Steve and there is an actual narrative to follow, even if he stays the same with no emotion, I would consider him a character over an avatar at that point. Until then, I think Minecraft should have representation, but I don't believe 'Steve?' is the only automatic go-to choice.
 

MattX20

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Aug 8, 2013
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6,325
For character number 5, there are only two viable options for a reveal: the Game Awards or a special Smash direct. I don't think we're getting the trailer for 5 during Terry's update video
 

EricTheGamerman

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Jul 21, 2014
Messages
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I'm sorry, did you just compare being homesick to NEEDING TO EAT TO SURVIVE?

I'm gonna need you to just stop right there.

I don't care if it's a game mechanic or not. There is a difference between missing your home and family and NEEDING TO EAT TO LIVE!

They are not comparable in any other form than being game mechanics. One is an actual trait of a person, and the other is basic needs.

Remember when I said it seems like you always pick the weak argument? This is what I mean. There is actually no argument here.

As for 'Steve' someone already said it best earlier: I think that his inclusion as a playable character isn't the best way to rep the game in Ultimate. I think MineCraft's impact on gaming easily qualifies it for representation in Smash and I've gotten over not wanting him because I've gotten over thinking Minecraft is for kids. If he shows up I won't be mad, and if he doesn't but we get a stage or a Mii Costume I think that will be perfectly good enough. I like the possible moveset that could come with him, but a lack of his inclusion will not bother me.

Also, there is no argument here about whether 'Steve?' is a character or not: he's not, end of story. He is nothing more than an avatar the player uses to play the game. He has no personality nor backstory/lore. You needs those to be a character. Villager has both backstory and personality. So does Ness, Link, even DQ protagonist...hell Game and Watch is an amalgamate of personality! Steve is to Minecraft as everyone's avatar in Gaia Online was to the user: most of them had no lore and were just there to look cool/pretty and represent the person behind the screen...until the MMO came out where your character had dialogue and a story.

If Mojang/Microsoft comes out tomorrow and releases a game starring Steve and there is an actual narrative to follow, even if he stays the same with no emotion, I would consider him a character over an avatar at that point. Until then, I think Minecraft should have representation, but I don't believe 'Steve?' is the only automatic go-to choice.
They're both glorified resource bars. That's my comparison, those are obviously different things, but I mean they're mechanics you have to manage or they negatively impact you in the game and your basic ability to do the things you need. So calm down.

I'm going to be honest, there's no good reason to exclude any character from discussion and there's especially no reason to go around telling people their favorite series or characters should only be in Smash as less than a playable character. And especially not from literally the best selling video game of all time. There is no "best way to represent" anything. We have ROB, Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer, and Mr. Game & Watch as fighters, you can make characters out of anything and they'll work super well to represent whatever they come from. Minecraft is no different. I advocate for a Tetromino to be playable, because, hey, let's make a really creative and interesting moveset. I don't think Steve would really be all that different.

Video game avatars are still referred to as characters. Link is an avatar. Master Chief is an avatar. Avatar purely refers to the concept of graphical representation of the user in an electronic media and all player controlled beings are avatars. Scholarly gaming literature refers to avatars and characters interchangeably for reference, and character can at its simplest mean, "an imaginary person represented in fiction." There's no requirement as to depth of that character, or well how much "character" (the other definition of character is "one of the attributes or features that make up and distinguish an individual" and the type of character you're referring to for the most part) that imaginary person represented has. Steve is a defined being (he has a clear and set attire, sounds that he naturally makes in response to certain actions, and need to be fed; I think that qualifies enough) that exists in fiction, and therefore he is a character. Not a deep one and not one that has character, but still a video game "character." The problem is that definitions have not really evolved to fit the proper terminology for video games, so we're reliant on the limited body of video game scholarship that exists when approaching this issue. I recommend reading Mark Wolf's works on this subject because he's got a great eye for detail in his scholarship. For example, everything around you in a video game, regardless of how well they're defined, is considered a NPC or Non-Playable Character, which then implies that you are the Playable Character. Character has become standard nomenclature for all user controlled avatars. Steve is a playable character without character in the distinguishing sense. Zach Waggoner also wrote a really great book examining avatars in video games that perhaps gives some more insight into this issue in an even more academic and enjoyable way: https://books.google.com/books?id=uf9QosYeuX4C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false. It touches more on how video game avatars reflect our ideas and thinking, but I think it does a good job of laying out several ideas and concepts.

Including known titans of the video game industry Ice Climbers and Corrin from Fire Emblem
Not all the characters in Smash have to be all-stars, but we've clearly moved on from Smash as a Nintendo crossover these days. It's a video game all-stars extravaganza now that was originally born of a Nintendo crossover. I think it's appropriate to define it as a Video Game All-Stars crossover given what the focus has shifted towards, the old grandfathered in characters don't change that label.
 
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Glitch-EGamer

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I want the final roster pick to be Master Hand. He's THE Smash character. He made it in as a nice playable boss in WoL but he needs to be an actual fully playable fighter. It was so satisfying getting to play as him and I wish they'd make a mode where you can use him outside of just the second to last level of WoL. Master Hand would be the way the series started and the way Ultimate finishes. Full circle.

I know this is unrealistic but why don't more people push for him? He's a staple to gaming characters at this point so surely he'd count(?). What is keeping Master Hand behind locked doors?


Opinions on if you'd be ok with that and why you think he isn't playable?
 
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xpnc

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The old grandfathered in characters don't change that label.
No, the new guest characters don't change the label. It's a Nintendo all-stars game, and you don't get to pretend the last 4 games (which all used that terminology) didn't happen. In no universe is a game intended to be a "video game all-stars" crossover going to have Isabelle and Incineroar as two of the six full characters added to the base roster and have a random Mario enemy as the first DLC

And don't tell me the DLC is celebrating the history of gaming or whatever, It's an awfully big coincidence that the "history of gaming" includes all of Sakurai's favourite video games + Banjo
 
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Giga Kaiju

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I want the final roster pick to be Master Hand. He's THE Smash character. He made it in as a nice playable boss in WoL but he needs to be an actual fully playable fighter. It was so satisfying getting to play as him and I wish they'd make a mode where you can use him outside of just the second to last level of WoL. Master Hand would be the way the series started and the way Ultimate finishes. Full circle.

I know this is unrealistic but why don't more people push for him? He's a staple to gaming characters at this point so surely he'd count(?). What is keeping Master Hand behind locked doors?


Opinions on if you'd be ok with that and why you think he isn't playable?
Personally, I wouldn't mind him. It would be a rad choice to be added to the game.

:bowser:.
 

EricTheGamerman

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No, the new guest characters don't change the label. It's a Nintendo all-stars game, and you don't get to pretend the last 4 games (which all used that terminology) didn't happen. In no universe is a game intended to be a "video game all-stars" crossover going to have Isabelle and Incineroar as two of the six full characters added to the base roster and have a random Mario enemy as the first DLC

And don't tell me the DLC is celebrating the history of gaming or whatever, It's an awfully big coincidence that the "history of gaming" includes all of Sakurai's favourite video games + Banjo
I'm not pretending the last 4 games didn't happen, but I also think Nintendo All-Stars fighting game alone is an appropriate label for what Smash has become. It's clearly intended to be a video game all stars crossover at this point with a heavy base in Nintendo content. The series has grown beyond that label even if the base game still puts substantial effort into the Nintendo elements.

The third parties are no longer guests I hate to tell you. You can keep desperately holding on to that idea, but we've officially seen Sonic show up in more Smash games than he hasn't and ever single third party came back without issue for Ultimate from Smash 4 and Snake. Third parties are never going to leave Smash at this point in the same way third parties won't stop showing up in other fighting games, it's more profitable that way. They're not guests or any less than the main Nintendo series that are in this crossover, hell sometimes they're more well represented. No, third parties are now a part of the family and not just guests.

Yes, Nintendo content remains a large priority and base, but it's not the only priority anymore and I think the label of Video Game All-Stars fighting game is more appropriate.
 

TheCJBrine

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I'm sorry, did you just compare being homesick to NEEDING TO EAT TO SURVIVE?

I'm gonna need you to just stop right there.

I don't care if it's a game mechanic or not. There is a difference between missing your home and family and NEEDING TO EAT TO LIVE!

They are not comparable in any other form than being game mechanics. One is an actual trait of a person, and the other is basic needs.

Remember when I said it seems like you always pick the weak argument? This is what I mean. There is actually no argument here.

As for 'Steve' someone already said it best earlier: I think that his inclusion as a playable character isn't the best way to rep the game in Ultimate. I think MineCraft's impact on gaming easily qualifies it for representation in Smash and I've gotten over not wanting him because I've gotten over thinking Minecraft is for kids. If he shows up I won't be mad, and if he doesn't but we get a stage or a Mii Costume I think that will be perfectly good enough. I like the possible moveset that could come with him, but a lack of his inclusion will not bother me.

Also, there is no argument here about whether 'Steve?' is a character or not: he's not, end of story. He is nothing more than an avatar the player uses to play the game. He has no personality nor backstory/lore. You needs those to be a character. Villager has both backstory and personality. So does Ness, Link, even DQ protagonist...hell Game and Watch is an amalgamate of personality! Steve is to Minecraft as everyone's avatar in Gaia Online was to the user: most of them had no lore and were just there to look cool/pretty and represent the person behind the screen...until the MMO came out where your character had dialogue and a story.

If Mojang/Microsoft comes out tomorrow and releases a game starring Steve and there is an actual narrative to follow, even if he stays the same with no emotion, I would consider him a character over an avatar at that point. Until then, I think Minecraft should have representation, but I don't believe 'Steve?' is the only automatic go-to choice.
A Mojang employee himself called Steve and Alex characters and notable in an official news post. They got a new character creator with Steve and Alex as the default choices you can base things off of or you can start a completely new character. They can blink now, too. Minecraft may not have a story unless you count the achievements which some have been there since Alpha or so (and were completely optional and gave you nothing with The End and The Beginning possibly even hinting at hidden lore like soulsand and music discs 11 and 13), but Steve is still treated as a character. Not a well defined one, but still one nonetheless.

There’s also the July-August 2016 issue of the Lego Club Magazine that said Steve was a builder, miner, and alchemist, while Alex is a builder, hunter and explorer, and that Steve is Alex’s boyfriend, so they gave them interests and a bit of “character.” I don’t know if Mojang has said anything about this but you’d think they’d need to approve it, so...

But I’m done; no matter how popular and loved Steve is I’m one of the few around here that actually frickin care and everyone is going to downplay him just like the stupid GameFaqs trolls we all love to complain about downplay everyone’s favorite character yet somehow Steve is okay to be hypocrites to no matter how much people are attached to him. He ain’t just “Steve?” anymore, “Steve” and “Alex” have been their official names for years and are the faces of the game. It’s not like the Villager has a narrative outside of “pay off your house” or “you’ve been confused for mayor” and the Villager is still literally you while Mojang always uses “Steve” and “Alex” to refer to the characters instead of the player. Steve has even had multiple crossovers with some being playable appearances.

And I really don’t get why some people act like it’d somehow be a crime for Steve to get in as if he’d steal the slot of their precious most-wanteds; no, if he’s in, then it was either him or no one else, if Sakurai and Nintendo want multiple characters from one company then they’ll get them and Steve obviously has no bearing on other characters. That’s like if I assumed Steve stole Porky’s or Geno’s slot; I’d really love them as well but that’s ridiculous. Not to mention it’s a frickin videogame and I’m tired of people whining about characters other people want. It’s frickin everywhere and it’s stupid and annoying how frickin selfish and rude people are over a dang game. Maybe I sound a bit selfish or hateful to some people but at least I’m not frickin crapping on someone else’s character and telling them that their character is literally nothing due to a lack of personality despite still having a name and design and being a mascot many love and make stuff for, even if they may or may not be customizable at least somewhat. People love to crap on the Minecraft community but I’ve found it to be far nicer than this crap, though I still believe it’s no different from other fanbases and there are still plenty of nice people here. I just wish people would stop acting like small children fighting over a toy and punching others for no reason other than to be a jerk.

A stage definitely isn’t the best or worst way to represent Minecraft because yes it’s good, but fans still want Steve and Minecraft is about doing what you want with/in your world like crafting and stuff to survive which a stage definitely won’t represent on its own. A stage definitely won’t represent what Sakurai said he loves about Minecraft.

I know the Steve haters are a small minority in comparison but I’m frickin done. I love Minecraft and I’m very attached to Steve and even Mojang seems to agree he’s a character (even if some may not like him but only one person said this while a couple of people involved in the game including a Mojang employee were in favor of him/the Mojang employee at least seemed like he’d be (the other was a Switch Edition dev whom said he’d like to see Steve or a Creeper in Smash), and some official Minecraft guys even built Steve with a Smash invitation at an official lego place as was shared in the Steve thread; and of course the news post on the official Minecraft website I’ve mentioned multiple times but nah it’s gonna be ignored). Even Nintendo frickin agrees since Steve and Alex were an answer to “who would you like to go on a field trip with?” on their Play Nintendo website.
 
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Nemuresu

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No, the new guest characters don't change the label. It's a Nintendo all-stars game, and you don't get to pretend the last 4 games (which all used that terminology) didn't happen. In no universe is a game intended to be a "video game all-stars" crossover going to have Isabelle and Incineroar as two of the six full characters added to the base roster and have a random Mario enemy as the first DLC

And don't tell me the DLC is celebrating the history of gaming or whatever, It's an awfully big coincidence that the "history of gaming" includes all of Sakurai's favourite video games + Banjo
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2018/...re-details-about-smash-ultimates-development/
Smash was once subtitled “Nintendo All-Stars,” but the game’s scope has expanded far beyond Nintendo. When asked how he defines Smash, Sakurai said that it essentially comes down to the way it feels to play the game. If it were to be reduced to nothing more than another 1-on-1 fighting game, then it would no longer be Smash.
I don't know how much value you take from Sakurai and Nintendo's statements, but the fact that this DLC has been protagonized by third-party characters echoes quite a lot on this.
 

SkeffVEVO

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 12, 2019
Messages
157
“It has four out of five characters”

I assumed you were skipping Steve since that’s a common thing people who dislike him tend to say, that he somehow isn’t a character, despite having a name, design, a lot of promotion, and recently a Mojang writer basically calling him a notable character if the previous points weren’t enough for people. Sorry if that wasn’t the case, though, maybe this speculation cycle has put me a bit on edge.
Oh I see, my bad I meant to say "Four out of the five characters I want." I added a joke about saying something on the lines of "Shadow as a bonus DLC please?" but removed it as it felt unnecessary. I guess I backspaced too much, placed a period, and didn't notice that I left out an important part of my message.

Just to be clear I have nothing against Steve as I think he would be a very nice addition and I enjoy Minecraft quite a lot. It's just that he isn't one of my wanted characters. However, he is part of my list of "Cool characters of series that I like but if these characters don't get in I won't be disappointed as they are not my main requests," which consists of Sora, Steve, and Skull Kid (Or any Zelda rep for that matter).
 

PsychoIncarnate

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Making the "UI" for my imaginary game. It's just an fun animation project.

Wish I knew how to make a real game

Background has animations and I would have posted it with the animations but some of the text accidently got messed up on different frames
 
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ivanlerma

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View attachment 239479

Making the "UI" for my imaginary game. It's just an fun animation project.

Wish I knew how to make a real game

Background has animations and I would have posted it with the animations but some of the text accidently got messed up on different frames
i hope the animation project turns out great, this looks interesting as time goes on for me.
 

AugustusB

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I have returned from mini vacation/wedding! I also flexed my music making/remixing skills. If anyone is interested to listen, PM me.

I take it, not a whole lot has happened?
 

Sour Supreme

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I have returned from mini vacation/wedding! I also flexed my music making/remixing skills. If anyone is interested to listen, PM me.

I take it, not a whole lot has happened?
You should have never returned... If the Minecraft fans haven't captured you by midnight, the Anti-Stevers will have no doubt skinned you alive by dawn. Only Geno could bring peace to this devastated land.
 
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