Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[AugustusB]

He poisoned our water supply, burned our crops, and delivered a plague unto our houses.

Yes of course! How could we forget that! No one can explain that! Oh...wait *takes off Geno costume* it's...not what it looks like? *puts away gas can*

 

[Sigran101]

Well it would be bad PR if Sakurai said he never really wanted to include Geno but wanted to give something minimal to the fans because of the request. Action speaks louder than words, so if Geno ain't Fighter #4 or #5 then I think Sakurai doesn't really care.

I disagree. Sakurai has straight up laughed at people's character suggestions in interviews before. And that includes Ridley and Pac-Man. He doesn't just pretend to want every character that gets mentioned to be playable. Geno is the only one he's said that for.

 

[Deleted member]

As far as I recall, the only real thing preventing Geno from being a Fighter's Pass inclusion is the main fact that Nintendo discussed only including series or franchises that have never been represented in the Smash series before. Geno would technically count as the first Mario RPG-based character, but as far as Super Mario is concerned, that series is represented by a wide margin already. If this is the standard that they themselves are keeping to, seeing him as a main DLC entry would run counter to the mission statement that was initially promised from the beginning.

I feel like I'm the only person who paid attention to this and I point it out often: at the video game awards, a venue and program that the attendees were likely to have never watched a Nintendo direct, much less a Smash centric direct, Reggie parroted the point that all fighters are returning, so the DLC is fighters never represented in Smash before. It was purely the same sales pitch Sakurai had already given us.

I genuinely don't think this is a matter of 'Sakurai doesn't care'. If anything, that will just mean that even he was unable to make the idea come to fruition due to factors outside of his control. He can only do so much if the other party involved just does not want to lend their intellectual property.

Of course, the other side of the coin, Sakurai did the costume and he was happy only doing that, but just going off his track record throughout the Smash series, the man hurts himself to get this stuff done in the best quality he can afford, so I can't really see this being the true outcome.

To quote a post from quite a few dozen pages back, Sakurai added the Mii costume towards the end of Smash 4's life when Ultimate was probably well in development. He knew that behind the scenes, they were killing Smash 4 (and would really nail that coffin with Bayo) so what was the point in making Geno a
whole new character? If I had to guess, talks with the companies already included an acknowledgement that their characters would come back in Ultimate, because there's no way "everyone is here" was a last minute decision. Why would he have Nintendo negotiate two characters with that kind of term from a company that until recently, Nintendo really hadn't rekindled their business relationship with?

Nintendo and Square are buddy buddy on a level I haven't seen since the SNES, imo. It might mean nothing, but Mario RPG is a symbol of that partnership, to me.

 

[MissingGlitch]

You all have to remember that Sakurai is human like the rest of us. People who like characters but want to see some characters more then others. Sakurai might really like Geno. But he might have liked Hero/Dragon Quest way more. Would he be happy if he got to work on Geno? I'm sure of it. But I bet he was ecstatic to be given the opportunity to work on Hero.

 

[ForsakenM]

As far as I recall, the only real thing preventing Geno from being a Fighter's Pass inclusion is the main fact that Nintendo discussed only including series or franchises that have never been represented in the Smash series before. Geno would technically count as the first Mario RPG-based character, but as far as Super Mario is concerned, that series is represented by a wide margin already. If this is the standard that they themselves are keeping to, seeing him as a main DLC entry would run counter to the mission statement that was initially promised from the beginning.

The only way this counts is if Nintendo bought everything about SMRPG, and I mean BOUGHT as in they own it all now.

This is very unlikely and, in the event that Geno is somehow still a Mario series character while being 3rd party, he would be the first of his kind to hit Smash.

Also, this is something Reggie said. It doesn't have to be concrete. He's allowed to be a bit off.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

So I'm considering making a video regarding Geno in Smash and I was wondering if there's a list anywhere with all of our potential evidence and ideas. I'd want to be as thorough with it as possible, and while I know a good deal of what's been discussed, I feel I may be missing something...

Doesn't look like anyone has responded to you unless they DM'd you. I wish we'd stop talking about stupid crap and focus on important stuff like this. You know? Supporting each other in supporting Geno. I honestly don't know if there's some kind of list. The first page of this thread probably has some useful information though. And the activity in this thread in general is a testament to our belief that Geno belongs in Smash. If you need a moveset concept for Geno you can use mine in your video if you'd like I can DM it to you. That's about as much as I can contribute sorry. Not much for evidence: maybe (probably not) starling?, Sakurai has said he likes the character and that he'd be fun in Smash (I don't remember exactly what he said but it was something like that with the gun for a hand and all that), absence of Mii costume, and the character's popularity and potential.

Also, that goes for anyone. If you're interested in any of the movesets I've worked on so far just message me and I'll send them to you. I've only done Frisk and Geno so far. Crash is also done but isn't typed up yet. In the process of writing one for Rayman now.

 

[ForsakenM]

You all have to remember that Sakurai is human like the rest of us. People who like characters but want to see some characters more then others. Sakurai might really like Geno. But he might have liked Hero/Dragon Quest way more. Would he be happy if he got to work on Geno? I'm sure of it. But I bet he was ecstatic to be given the opportunity to work on Hero.

This is my argument for when people go off on Piranha Plant and act like it's a slap in the face or something.

Sakurai got to make this character and was likely excited about building a moveset for them.

It's like, no matter how hard he busts his ass, it doesn't matter unless it's for the character the individual wants. Jesus...

 

[Ovaltine]

This is my argument for when people go off on Piranha Plant and act like it's a slap in the face or something.

Sakurai got to make this character and was likely excited about building a moveset for them.

It's like, no matter how hard he busts his ***, it doesn't matter unless it's for the character the individual wants. Jesus...

****ing. THANK YOU.

Ahem. Anyway, as for a compilation of evidence for Geno and stuff that is also against him, basically the detailed state of the Geno, I'd be the one to do that if I were able... but I've been in far too frazzled a state to do much of anything. Hurricanes and all, y'all understand. If no one's done it by the time I get back, I'll do it (unless Geno miraculously happens in that time frame lol, then there's not much point).

 

[ForsakenM]

****ing. THANK YOU.

Ahem. Anyway, as for a compilation of evidence for Geno and stuff that is also against him, basically the detailed state of the Geno, I'd be the one to do that if I were able... but I've been in far too frazzled a state to do much of anything. Hurricanes and all, y'all understand. If no one's done it by the time I get back, I'll do it (unless Geno miraculously happens in that time frame lol, then there's not much point).

Speaking of which, I think it was that guy with the big 'M' in his pfp that always uses red text (sorry, bad with names) that we are talking about, but I encourage this. I'm actually thinking of going crazy and making a Top Ten vid for who I want in Smash and maybe a vid talking about how much I love Geno.

Regardless, if anyone can think of anything else that I can group together (as I'm already gathering fan art and fan music) to show off the community, let me know!

 

[Fatmanonice]

So, another reason why people are incredulous about Shifty's Ryu statement is that he's pretty much the only person that has total confidence in literally any character. This is a very different situation from Hero and Banjo. I hope you all trust me when I say this but there really isn't strong evidence behind the scenes for anyone right now and I think a lot of people are afraid to make guesses because they know that they'll be swamped with questions. You all pretty saw how me leaking the starling photo went. People are also kind of paranoid in losing their credibility over openly guessing too so if someone does make a guess public, it'll probably be when it'll do the least amount of damage like the day of the Direct.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Are we.... actually going into a smash reveal blind this time?

 

[AugustusB]

Are we.... actually going into a smash reveal blind this time?

Finally! There is some excitement in not knowing. We may hear something closer to reveal time, but not having the knowledge within a week is kind of refreshing.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Are we.... actually going into a smash reveal blind this time?

Don't count on it...but honestly I hope so

 

[UberMadman]

Are we.... actually going into a smash reveal blind this time?

If so, it would effectively be the first time this happened since Joker, and before that, freaking Inkling was the last time we had a Smash announcement completely blind. Even if we didn’t always know every single reveal, there was some character leaked in every presentation after that. Ridley was leaked for E3, Simon was leaked for the October Direct, Isabelle was known before last year’s September Direct, and Kencineroar were pretty public knowledge by the final August Direct. Both Hero and Banjo were heavily leaked, too.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Are we.... actually going into a smash reveal blind this time?

Unless Shifty's right then... yeah, that's basically what we're currently looking at.

 

[Deleted member]

If so, it would effectively be the first time this happened since Joker, and before that, freaking Inkling was the last time we had a Smash announcement completely blind. Even if we didn’t always know every single reveal, there was some character leaked in every presentation after that. Ridley was leaked for E3, Simon was leaked for the October Direct, Isabelle was known before last year’s September Direct, and Kencineroar were pretty public knowledge by the final August Direct. Both Hero and Banjo were heavily leaked, too.

Since K. Rool actually, there was some speculation he was coming but that's all there was. Simon leaked but K. Rool did not. I don't believe Chrom did either but idk.

 

[MisterMike]

Are we.... actually going into a smash reveal blind this time?

Unless something big drops before the september direct, we're going in blind for the first time since . Kind of surreal, really.

 

[Ovaltine]

On one hand, it's very nice to have that surprise element this time (so far).

On the other hand, if it's possibly Geno, I'd want to know before this darn storm blows in because I need good news for once!!!

 

[AugustusB]

On one hand, it's very nice to have that surprise element this time (so far).

On the other hand, if it's possibly Geno, I'd want to know before this darn storm blows in because I need good news for once!!!

Sending you all the positivity your way. Stay safe, Madam Duck Queen!

 

[RetrogamerMax]

See, this is what I was talking about: I don't believe females are under represented in Smash personally, but let us look at what the hard math says (I did this math before but I never posted it because I was worry about how I would be taken)!

Spoiler: Teh Mathz

Once again, this will not take into consideration characters that can be either gender or those who are part of a mixed duo.

Thus, the female characters in Smash Ultimate are:

Oof, it would seem that the math is kind clear here, as I only count 12 here, meaning the other 64 either fall under one of the categories I mentioned above or are not female at all. Obviously this disparity would look less so if we separated those in duo or either gender categories, but it's clear that at 15% is pretty measly and Smash Ultimate is a male-dominated cast of characters...or is it?

If we look at those who can be either-or, we get: (Pika Libre is Female, so the option is there), for a total of 8 or 10%. Those that are un-gendered are: (Japan is called 'Robot' and the gender is implied to be male but Robots don't really work like that) , which comes out to 13 or 17%. We then have our mixed duos: and , of which there are only three and that makes up about 4%.

Technically speaking, going STRICTLY by gender representation, Smash Ultimate really isn't doing that bad, though the math doesn't lie at roughly 54% of the cast being 100% male. That is still pretty crazy though that about 46% of Smash doesn't fall under male. The more you know! Though, our original goal was just the 100% female representation, and that is still only 15%.

Spoiler: Why I Really Think Smash Has So Few Female Characters

However, if you don't mind me going deeper here, I'd like to explore why that is.

First off, let us look at the original goal of Smash, which was to celebrate Nintendo history. If we were still going by that goal alone, Smash would be doing pretty good by these standards as most of their prominent female characters are already in the game. If we were to drop all 3rd party, not only would we lose only one female rep, BUT that would bump the game up to more around 19% for female cast. Not a huge bump, sure, but going away from the math and more to the list of Nintendo characters that are prominent and female...they've pretty much covered most of their bases and are kinda running out of choices here.

Sure, Dixie Kong and Krystal have been mentioned, but outside of those two (and Krystal wasn't ALWAYS super popular and wasn't ALWAYS demanded for Smash) where else could they really pull from? I'm sure there are areas, but they are in fact running out. Bringing this back into a celebration of gaming as a whole, I would say that there are a number of popular female video game characters to choose from, and R RetrogamerMax named the big ones that come to mind for me...but I disagree with were he said 'The list goes on and on' because...it doesn't.

Facts are facts, and there are more male video game characters than female, and when you look at prominent/iconic/popular characters the disparity gest even bigger...but why is that? Well, I would argue it's because in the short amount of time video games have been around, they were mostly marketed towards males. Thus, it would make sense that to appeal to a male audience, you either have them play as a dude or the woman has to appeal to them...and retro Lara Croft is an example of what they thought appealed...and they weren't totally wrong.

Now, take into consideration the original target audience and the nature of a video game, these being boys/men and being and interactive medium through which to enjoy an experience or entertainment. As human beings, our forms of entertainment often bring us outside and away from our normal lives that we normally consider rather mundane. 'Welp, nerdy guys who aren't experiencing what those jock guys are getting make up a lot of our video game sales' say companies. 'So, why not give them the "male fantasy experience" in a way that no other medium can!'

Now don't get me wrong, not every company is like that or did this, but this is a thing that happened. Now gaming is becoming more and more of an everybody thing, they market is changing and cool female characters are existing...but you can't pull from what doesn't quite exist just yet. I would say that gaming is still in it's fledgling state in this regard due to being around for a lesser time than nearly every other medium and this we just need to spend more time to let it grow in this new environment. Thus, it's not so much that Smash Ultimate is under-representing female characters, but that the video game industry as a whole is still growing in terms of having prominent female characters and thus Smash only has so much to pull from.

Wow...sorry, I went really deep again.

I guess I really care about video games and how people look at them?

Idk.

You make good points, but there still is major gaming females missing from the roster. Especially Dixie Kong who I would say is just as important as Diddy and K.Rool.

 

[Deleted member]

So, another reason why people are incredulous about Shifty's Ryu statement is that he's pretty much the only person that has total confidence in literally any character. This is a very different situation from Hero and Banjo. I hope you all trust me when I say this but there really isn't strong evidence behind the scenes for anyone right now and I think a lot of people are afraid to make guesses because they know that they'll be swamped with questions. You all pretty saw how me leaking the starling photo went. People are also kind of paranoid in losing their credibility over openly guessing too so if someone does make a guess public, it'll probably be when it'll do the least amount of damage like the day of the Direct.

This strikes me in two different ways.

1. Ryu Hayabusa is very well not as likely as we think he is. Unless we get one more solid leaker backing him, Shifty could be interpreted as a bandwagoner.
2. We might not get a Smash reveal this direct. Think about it. Unless this is some crazy ass Joker situation, you'd think one credible leaker would have said something by now. (Stares at Vergeben). Leaks for characters generally happen soon before the character reveal. With nobody but this Shifty guy, can we really expect a Smash reveal right now? I'm going into next week cautiously.

 

[Deleted member]

... Going into a direct without knowing anything in it?

That's not how this works.

 

[Bob-Omber]

As far as I recall, the only real thing preventing Geno from being a Fighter's Pass inclusion is the main fact that Nintendo discussed only including series or franchises that have never been represented in the Smash series before. Geno would technically count as the first Mario RPG-based character, but as far as Super Mario is concerned, that series is represented by a wide margin already. If this is the standard that they themselves are keeping to, seeing him as a main DLC entry would run counter to the mission statement that was initially promised from the beginning.

I still feel like the geno and mallow spirits being listed as different series then the main Super Mario Bros. series has to mean something

 

[Deleted member]

I still feel like the geno and mallow spirits being listed as different series then the main Super Mario Bros. series has to mean something

They aren't, are they?

Imma be real and say in my opinion the spirit is the biggest thing working against him.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I still feel like the geno and mallow spirits being listed as different series then the main Super Mario Bros. series has to mean something

They still have the Mushroom icon, the other RPG character spirits in the Mario series just use their game’s name, too.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

... Going into a direct without knowing anything in it?

That's not how this works.

It's how things should be. Honestly, us being in the dark is more exciting to me.

 

[ForsakenM]

They aren't, are they?

Imma be real and say in my opinion the spirit is the biggest thing working against him.

Aye, so here is a debunk.

A PNG from a different group in the team isn't going to stop Geno from happening. Just because, thus far, Fighter's Pass characters DON'T have any content in the base game doesn't mean they can't.

 

[Vector Victor]

Are we.... actually going into a smash reveal blind this time?

Not really. Since Geno is character 74, the next reveal.



Optimism! Baseless optimism!

 

[Ovaltine]

The thing about spirits is when Geno's and Mallow's spirits were negotiated for versus when the DLC was decided. Ultimate's project plan was finalized in 2015, so any time in those years leading up to January 2018 (give or take a little while before, given third party negotiations), Geno and Mallow were negotiated for spirits with Square Enix. If they were negotiated really early on, Geno's still got a chance, as DLC negotiations and that for spirits are totally different and at different times. I'd wager this is a pretty good possibility, given Cloud probably had to be negotiated very early on, especially if they wanted to get 'everyone is here' going with the project plan. I could see them going for Geno and Mallow as spirits while they were at it.

Now, I'd say that, if Geno's and Mallow's spirits was added in far later, it'd be pretty clear to me. They weren't late additions like, say, Shantae and Risky Boots, though. It makes me wonder if Geno's spirit even matters in terms of this DLC. If by some miracle, we get more DLC, too, his spirit will certainly have no bearing on things.

"But if they negotiated for Geno's and Mallow's spirits, they could have just removed them if Geno was going to be playable."

To that, I say: nay. When negotiations are made for a character to be used in a certain way, it's set in stone. After going through the hoops to do that, it'd just be a loss of money and time if they rescinded that. If they were first party, removal would be easy, but it isn't such since they're both third party. Even if Geno is planned for DLC, it doesn't mean that his spirit can't exist in the base. It's all a matter of the timing and the logistics behind it. His spirit could mean everything or it could mean nothing at all. Unless we got everything behind the scenes regarding his and Mallow's spirits, though... we don't know.

 

[Ray102396]

Are we.... actually going into a smash reveal blind this time?

I'd actually like that a lot, but then again I'm pretty biased for a couple reasons. One, Joker/someone else Persona was my number 1 wanted character that I thought would never happen and that was the last blind one we got, plus I'm not too into the characters that have been talked about recently. Ryu, Tracer, Monster Hunter would all be "Eh, whatever" reveals to me, but even if the next reveal was someone I wouldn't want, it'd still be cool to be surprised out of nowhere and have it be someone who wasn't mentioned too much recently.
While I don't think any of my wants are super likely to happen, I could see some of them happen. Some of my wants are Geno (obviously), Doomguy, Sora, or some new Zelda character (Vaati or Linkle would be my dream.) I'd even say Lightning, but I really don't think we'd get another FF rep. I'd be okay with someone like Crash or Leon/RE rep. Hell, I'd even be okay with someone Undertale, if only for the music. If we're going to my top wanted never evers though, my crazy picks would be Taokaka from Blazblue, Prince from Katamari, or Hatsune Miku.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

I do think this is worth mentioning. Geno is, so far, the only character Sakurai has openly admitted having planned for Smash at some point during the development of not one but two separate games, AND still hasn't been in the roster yet.
Blastoise, Heihachi, Takamaru, Nintendog, Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, Excitebike, Bubbles, and a few others have only ever been considered for one title before they were dropped entirely.
Geno has persisted for two games as opposed to just one. Clearly Sakurai has something for him and this will almost certainly be the game he stars in

 

[Deleted member]

Aye, so here is a debunk.

A PNG from a different group in the team isn't going to stop Geno from happening. Just because, thus far, Fighter's Pass characters DON'T have any content in the base game doesn't mean they can't.

I'm not team "spirits deconfirm", especially with what they are in "canon", but it's a really weird situation.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Not really. Since Geno is character 74, the next reveal.



Optimism! Baseless optimism!

Honestly if Geno is in, I think he will be the last character in the Pass as he would kind of fit that 'final character' role quite well.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

If Nintendo was capable of keeping us this in the dark the whole time I don't really understand why they only started now. It's kind of really disrespectful to the many characters who did get leaked.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Going in blind always stresses me out. Thats why I'm here so I can hear the first of what happens lmao

 

[Bob-Omber]

They still have the Mushroom icon, the other RPG character spirits in the Mario series just use their game’s name, too.

Well the mushroom is a promimant symbol throughout all the mario franchise. The fact that the different forms of mario games (m +l, kart, rpg, Dr.) are differenciated means that they consider them at least somewhat different series

 

[CannonStreak]

Hey guys, what are we talking about now?

 

[RetrogamerMax]

If Nintendo was capable of keeping us this in the dark the whole time I don't really understand why they only started now. It's kind of really disrespectful to the many characters who did get leaked.

It really isn't disrespectful as they legally shouldn't have been leaked in the first place.

Going in blind always stresses me out. Thats why I'm here so I can hear the first of what happens lmao

Well at least me and you have Banjo & Kazooie to wait for right.

 

[wynn728]

This is my argument for when people go off on Piranha Plant and act like it's a slap in the face or something.

Sakurai got to make this character and was likely excited about building a moveset for them.

It's like, no matter how hard he busts his ***, it doesn't matter unless it's for the character the individual wants. Jesus...

Just because Sakurai wanted it doesn't mean it's good or people have to change their opinion about it. Not everyone gets a free pass from criticism. Sakurai wanted Piranha Plant in the roster well good for him, doesn't mean everyone have to sit down, shut up, and applaud his decision of doing this if they hated it. That's like saying we should be happy with 2K for really wanting to include loot boxes, slot machine, pachinko, and a wheel as a form of progression in the new NBA game.

 

[ivanlerma]

Just because Sakurai wanted it doesn't mean it's good or people have to change their opinion about it. Not everyone gets a free pass from criticism. Sakurai wanted Piranha Plant in the roster well good for him, doesn't mean everyone have to sit down, shut up, and applaud his decision of doing this if they hated it. That's like saying we should be happy with 2K for really wanting to include loot boxes, slot machine, pachinko, and a wheel as a form of progression in the new NBA game.

you really are one depressed dude.