Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Deleted member]

Here's some theorycrafting food for thought since a lot of folks are so hung up on the Mii costume, or lack thereof (For the record, I think the costume is meaningless):

Hero, and the associated Mii costumes, are actually representatives for the "Enix" half of SquareEnix. We got Cloud as an obvious "Square" rep, and he came with Square costumes.

Just a thought.

 

[maf91186]

Knowing Banjo is going to playable has made this wait a lot more BEARable for me.

I just hate how I can't access his page yet.

Nice

 

[Ze Diglett]

Here's some theorycrafting food for thought since a lot of folks are so hung up on the Mii costume, or lack thereof (For the record, I think the costume is meaningless):

Hero, and the associated Mii costumes, are actually representatives for the "Enix" half of SquareEnix. We got Cloud as an obvious "Square" rep, and he came with Square costumes.

Just a thought.

The "Square" half of Square Enix doesn't have any costumes, though. Those were the Geno and Chocobo costumes, and those aren't in the game anymore.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

The "Square" half of Square Enix doesn't have any costumes, though. Those were the Geno and Chocobo costumes, and those aren't in the game as of now.

R/woooosh

What he was trying to imply was that Geno would be a Square rep.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Not gonna lie, I’m more hyped for the September Direct than I was for E3. Anyone else?

Not even close for me. Shinobi spoiling Banjo & Kazooie before hand raised my hype level to the roof.

Interesting. The takeaways here are:

1) Sakurai does more than just supervision of the DLC. He works pretty hands-on with all of the advertising and such for the DLC, too. God, can he let other people do this, please? The man is a beast, and while that's amazing, he needs to take a break. He even mentions hand pain during the presentation. Holy crap.

I remember Sakurai mentioning his hand pain when he first showed off gameplay of Mega Man in Smash 4 at E3 of 2013. What's even crazier about that is that right after he finished making the DLC for Smash 4 him and his team went straight away developing Ultimate. Development on Smash 4 begin in 2012 so by the time he is done with Ultimate's DLC, it will be almost 10 years since he has really had a break from Smash which is crazy to think about.

This man really, REALLY needs a break.

 

[Qeomash]

The current "lack"of money in Sakurai's budget will have no bearing on any future dlc's budget. He was given the budget to produce the fighter's pass. If he is given the green light for more dlc, he will be given more money to produce it.

He might just be tightening his waist to stretch the money he has in the hopes of being able to ask for just a little extra to squeeze out another character.

 

[QQS]

Well, September is almost here and the Direct is coming. About third party, I can feel Eggman or Crash coming. About Nintendo characters, I can feel coming the last evolution of Grookey or Byleth.

Of course is not a “Rule” and no one knows for sure that this FP will feature only 3rd Party characters or Nintendo ones also. But it could be good if it’s only 3rd Party ones cause in that way then it’s very likely a Nintendo Pass; but if they announce a Nintendo One here, it would destroy (in my opinion) an exclusive Nintendo Pass later. It would be nice just with this FP alone; +another Nintendo Pass and/or Bonus DLC.

Anyway. I don’t know in which Pass or Bonus but I’m pretty confident about GENO being playable in this Smash. Mixing facts, speculations, theories, love for the character, acknowledge from Sakurai and Fan Demand for over 20 years, it’s pretty probably for me that he is coming. It’s unbelievable the amount of love Geno can reach. Sakurai knows that. We also know that and witnessed that the “Never Ever” guys are almost all playable: Cloud, KKR, Ridley, Banjo and more forgotten ones. With Geno (and probaly Isaac in the future) we’ll close this chapter. But more than anyone and because all those are playable now, Geno is the First Top-Pick ever right now. The Most Requested probably.

Are you ready for the: “Geno Awakens” splash art?!

 

[Icewolff92]

Well, September is almost here and the Direct is coming. About third party, I can feel Eggman or Crash coming. About Nintendo characters, I can feel coming the last evolution of Grookey or Byleth.

Of course is not a “Rule” and no one knows for sure that this FP will feature only 3rd Party characters or Nintendo ones also. But it could be good if it’s only 3rd Party ones cause in that way then it’s very likely a Nintendo Pass; but if they announce a Nintendo One here, it would destroy (in my opinion) an exclusive Nintendo Pass later. It would be nice just with this FP alone; +another Nintendo Pass and/or Bonus DLC.

Anyway. I don’t know in which Pass or Bonus but I’m pretty confident about GENO being playable in this Smash. Mixing facts, speculations, theories, love for the character, acknowledge from Sakurai and Fan Demand for over 20 years, it’s pretty probably for me that he is coming. It’s unbelievable the amount of love Geno can reach. Sakurai knows that. We also know that and witnessed that the “Never Ever” guys are almost all playable: Cloud, KKR, Ridley, Banjo and more forgotten ones. With Geno (and probaly Isaac in the future) we’ll close this chapter. But more than anyone and because all those are playable now, Geno is the First Top-Pick ever right now. The Most Requested probably.

Are you ready for the: “Geno Awakens” splash art?!

Eggman should be a boss instead of a playable character, but maybe that's just me. For me when it comes to the last two, I¨m on the part of it being Geno (for the same reason as you said with the most demanded right now and all that jazz) and Byleth (the lack of spirits pre-release as a last-minute marketing, but Tetris 99 gets something 3H related post-release makes me suspicious.)

At worst... and I do mean, at worse, I do think the MII Costume is coming back but is revealed later. With how much Square and Nintendo are being buddies right now, I don¨t see how a Mii Costume for Geno would be that hard to get. Had Geno got included in Smash 4 and we were talking about Cloud now or Geno being more of a mainstream character (like let's say, Laura Croft), then this would be a different thing. I don¨t see why Square would be so stingy about letting them have a costume for cheap or even thrown in for free for good measure concidering how much friendlier they are together right now if budget truly is an issue on the fronts we are worrying about while them knowing that Sakurai has interest in him and (I know that DQ is as historically important, but its still true) Heroes inclusion helped the sale of the latest DQ... you know the saying I scratch your back, you scratch my back?

And about the splash art.... YES

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

I don't know what all of this budget stuff is about, but I'm here to say don't give up hope!

Edit: It's entirely possible that their budget is lower for the presentations because they spent all their money on some bomb dlc characters.. Or maybe DQ was just expensive

 

[RetrogamerMax]

About third party, I can feel Eggman or Crash coming.

I would love Eggman, but he isn't likely to happen at the slightest. We haven't gotten a 2nd unique character for a 3rd party franchise in Smash yet, not counting Richter and Ken because they're Echos. If any Sonic character or if any secondary unique 3rd party character in general get's into Smash it will be Tails without a doubt. Talis is literally the 2nd most iconic co-protagonist in gaming right behind Luigi so It would make total sense for him to go first in this regard.

Eggman should be a boss instead of a playable character, but maybe that's just me.

Yeah, that's just your opinion because Eggman deserves to be playable if someone like Ridley is. He is literally the 2nd most iconic antagonist in gaming next to Bowser and is Sonic's big bad so he has more than earned his slot. I wasn't saying you were bashing on Eggman, but I was just replying back to your opinion.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Eggman's fights are always defined by his various egg-mecha. If he were made playable, it would likely be as his SA2 incarnation.

 

[MisterMike]

Knowing Banjo is going to playable has made this wait a lot more BEARable for me.

Here's some theorycrafting food for thought since a lot of folks are so hung up on the Mii costume, or lack thereof (For the record, I think the costume is meaningless):

Hero, and the associated Mii costumes, are actually representatives for the "Enix" half of SquareEnix. We got Cloud as an obvious "Square" rep, and he came with Square costumes.

Just a thought.

Possibly... possibly...

 

[Deleted member]

The "Square" half of Square Enix doesn't have any costumes, though. Those were the Geno and Chocobo costumes, and those aren't in the game anymore.

Sorry, I posted that from my phone and my finger slipped .000009 pixels down and hit post way before I was ready and the edit function was being a bad boy.
This post:

R/woooosh

What he was trying to imply was that Geno would be a Square rep.

Is along the lines of what I was getting at, but I'm not such a bright and cheery ray of sunshine that I'm going to say "Geno's gonna be the Square rep", just that we're liable to get a Square rep. There's no hard and fast rule that DLC is limited to one per company, and even if there was, the specificity of how SquareEnix is a two part company could bypass that rule through shenanigans.

I will say though that if Geno is in the Fighters Pass or is a bonus fighter or whatever, I could see him coming with his own costume. Mii Costumes have evolved to be more than they were in Smash 4. Some are still consolation prizes, because either a fan favorite character has too few unique moves to fit the current design strategy, or was introduced too far into the game's development, or likely wouldn't be worth the development costs in the case of third party characters. But, despite being added as playable fighters, Chrom, K. Rool, Isabelle and Inkling still have costumes, and Samus, Captain Falcon and Link (twice!) have costumes despite having been around since the first game. I believe this means Mii costumes are also filling the role of letting players play a fan favorite character without the baggage of learning the complexities of the character they like. The Mii fighters are overall easy to pick up and easy to do well with for almost anyone, so to be able to spoof a character is a blessing for some people.

The same could be said for Geno coming with his own Mii costume - I'm pretty convinced that Sakurai would try to work timed hits into his moveset somehow, to either do extra damage for your good timing, or maybe even do a second hit. That kind of execution demand would be too much for even some of the most hardcore Geno fans (especially considering most Geno fans are probably pushing 30 at this point and might not have that kind of coordination anymore if they're a casual player) and the costume would be a good compromise, especially when the character is already in the game and your heart can be at rest that not only did they get what they deserve, but you still get to play "as" them.

 

[wynn728]

I honestly don't know where this idea of Geno as a bonus character came from, but glad that idea is getting thrown out. There was nothing that points at a bonus character even happening and that starling pictures seems to not be about Smash Bros. I would love for Geno to get in, but with the direction things are going it seems like it's not going to happen and most likely Sakurai doesn't care. Remember, he put Piranha Plant in despite saying there limited about of space for new characters.

 

[Firox]

I'd like it they did an Echo Fighters pass. It'd be overall much less work compared to a bunch of brand new fighters, they wouldn't need new stages or music or anything like that, and there are plenty of characters that would work well as Echoes.

To be honest, I think this idea would be way better than hammering out a bunch of Mii costumes. Rather than making 15 Walmart-grade skins for a Mii, they could do 5 or so really high quality skins for existing characters. It wouldn't even matter if their assist trophies exist. We would still be able to get the likes of Shadow, Jeanne, Dixie Kong, Krystal, and who knows how many others. My only stipulation would be that they should obviously sell for much cheaper than a brand new character with stage. Maybe $1 or so each?

 

[domriver]

The current "lack"of money in Sakurai's budget will have no bearing on any future dlc's budget. He was given the budget to produce the fighter's pass. If he is given the green light for more dlc, he will be given more money to produce it.

He might just be tightening his waist to stretch the money he has in the hopes of being able to ask for just a little extra to squeeze out another character.

we all know the real deal on the budget issue. He now has to watch how these introductions clips cost because he spent a good amount of the budget on Geno's Intro trailer which hasnt been released yet. He knocked that out first then went to Joker and said oh crap. I spent alot already. Ill see what i can do for Hero and Banjo and whatever #4 or 5 is. :D

 

[Bee Card]

I honestly don't know where this idea of Geno as a bonus character came from, but glad that idea is getting thrown out. There was nothing that points at a bonus character even happening and that starling pictures seems to not be about Smash Bros. I would love for Geno to get in, but with the direction things are going it seems like it's not going to happen and most likely Sakurai doesn't care. Remember, he put Piranha Plant in despite saying there limited about of space for new characters.

This idea of a bonus character came cause it's likely that the fighter pass is only for "business characters" considering that Shuntaro Furukawa tha actual ceo of nintendo said that smash bros is a good franchise to do partnership with third parties. And with the lack of geno costume + the two tracks theories (wich remember the box theory in a certain way) who guess Geno as a character even though it's very unlikely to get a second SE rep for the reason previously said, the only way to fit all this **** is Geno as an extra character.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I'd rather not have an Echo fighters pass or anymore Echo fighters. It feels like such a waste of a character slot to just make Echo Fighters glorified skins that barely do anything different from their base counterparts. If their moves had different properties like the Melee clones then they would at least have something unique to them. Ken is the only one that does this, why can't echo fighters be more like Ken?

Until Echo Fighters have stat differences, I don't wanna even think about a Fighters pass full of them.

 

[Klimax]

"There's not a good side and a bad side" is a fine argument for circlejerking in philosophy class, but in the real world, there are clearly immoral acts, which can be judged based on whether or not they provide utility to anyone. A push against diversity in a culture or society has no evolutionary basis, it benefits humans in no obvious, biological way. Diversity OBJECTIVELY benefits civilization on virtually all fronts, and cultural homogeny only provides benefits as a result of artificial circumstances set in place to reward it. (the supposed "benefits" or "contradictory examples" provided by Firox all fall into the latter category)

"Circlejerking in philosophy class" no dude. In the real world and I mean the real one, not the one that snowflakes would like to live in with only people like them, there's no good side or bad side, there's just different point of views. But I get it that it's hard for some people to understand that their opinion is not shared by everyone.
What you consider bad is considered good by other people, so once again, who are you to decide that "blabla it's immoral" ? Jeez, back in the days, uptight old people were the ones being so boring, always talking about morality. Now, that's young people's turn, how sad. Chill a bit, smoke, drink, have sex, that's way more productive than trying to school people about what OBJECTIVELY (once again, a subjective notion) benefits civilization when you obviously has no respect for other civilizations.

 

[Deleted member]

I honestly don't know where this idea of Geno as a bonus character came from, but glad that idea is getting thrown out. There was nothing that points at a bonus character even happening and that starling pictures seems to not be about Smash Bros. I would love for Geno to get in, but with the direction things are going it seems like it's not going to happen and most likely Sakurai doesn't care. Remember, he put Piranha Plant in despite saying there limited about of space for new characters.

As easy as it is to think P.Plant is a slap in the face of Geno fans (probably even more for Waluigi fans), I'm willing to recognize him as a Bowser Jr., who was a last minute addition that barely made it into the base game - only this time, barely turned into didn't, and thus he was free for a time. I don't believe for a minute that Sakurai cares or that there'll be a bonus character. I think the bonus character concept came from the datamine of how many placeholder slots there are in the game, but who knows. Like I said in a previous post, Sakurai's musings about wanting Geno in Brawl or Smash 4 and the Mii Costume feel like ways to string us along, and with the ambiguity of "Nintendo chose the characters and I [Sakurai] told them which ones I think are realizable as fighters" really is why, to me, Joker and Hero feel like sales pitches before fanservice (and I don't care how much discussion I've already generated about them being shill picks or not being shill picks, they're shill picks in my heart), but then there's Banjo.

It's funny how Banjo, a character I didn't even really want, has put hope back into me for Geno just because he isn't advertising anything. He isn't even hyping up a modern gamer. He's hyping up N64 era Smashers and everyone else is essentially getting a contact high. That's what Geno's inclusion would do, too. Probably on an even bigger scale because his inclusion is so unlikely, his fans such memes, that we'd see bigger than Ridley-tier fallout from it.

 

[Bee Card]

I'd rather not have an Echo fighters pass or anymore Echo fighters. It feels like such a waste of a character slot to just make Echo Fighters glorified skins that barely do anything different from their base counterparts. If their moves had different properties like the Melee clones then they would at least have something unique to them. Ken is the only one that does this, why can't echo fighters be more like Ken?

Until Echo Fighters have stat differences, I don't wanna even think about a Fighters pass full of them.

And except Dixie Kong and Shadow, idk which potential echo character is enough popular and requested to sell enough and make sense.

 

[Sigran101]

I think the budget comment is actually good for us. Because he very clearly said before that they had a surplus of time and money. All the licensing fees would have been payed by then, and Sakurai knows how much it costs to make the big trailers. It seems like there must have been some kind of major extra cost to go from a surplus to having to cut down on production. Unless something went really REALLY wrong with one of the characters, it sounds to me like they ended up paying for something extra. I really feel like they're doing some kind of bonus character. That would explain the discrepancy.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

To be honest, I think this idea would be way better than hammering out a bunch of Mii costumes. Rather than making 15 Walmart-grade skins for a Mii, they could do 5 or so really high quality skins for existing characters. It wouldn't even matter if their assist trophies exist. We would still be able to get the likes of Shadow, Jeanne, Dixie Kong, Krystal, and who knows how many others. My only stipulation would be that they should obviously sell for much cheaper than a brand new character with stage. Maybe $1 or so each?

Krystal does not fit the skeletons of any existing fighter, so she won't be an Echo. Shadow probably can't be an Echo under Sega's regulations regarding the character from what I've heard as well (again, if we're looking for explanations as to why certain things have not already happened in Ultimate, this would make a lot of sense).

Also, I suspect they'd charge at least $1.99, if not $2.99 for additional Echo fighters.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I'd rather not have an Echo fighters pass or anymore Echo fighters. It feels like such a waste of a character slot to just make Echo Fighters glorified skins that barely do anything different from their base counterparts. If their moves had different properties like the Melee clones then they would at least have something unique to them. Ken is the only one that does this, why can't echo fighters be more like Ken?

Until Echo Fighters have stat differences, I don't wanna even think about a Fighters pass full of them.

Echoes are LITERALLY the antithesis to "Taking up a character slot" they take almost no time to make and you can even stack them on the CSS.

And actually MOST of the Echo fighters have substantial differences from their main counterparts. Lucina has no tipper so her gameplay style is inherently different from Marth, Chrom is the same as Lucina but for Roy but also literally has a whole move that Roy doesn't, Dark Pit has a different Side Special, Richter has Aura in place of fire for his Holy Water, and Ken is Ken. The only two that don't have big differences are Dark Samus and Daisy and both of them were added for popularity and they have major animation differences. There's literally no reason for anyone to be against echoes. They're characters that take almost no time to make and people that love said characters get to play as them. I'd take a Big Boss echo for Snake any day of the week. So I fail to see an issue.

 

[BZocky]

Basically, Waluigi gave up his playable status for this beautiful specimen.

I mean if you really think about it he is the most popular assist trophy. By Waluigi’s logic, it’s either risk playing second banana again or stay as the top of his class even if it isn’t the most noteworthy in the grand scheme of things.

 

[wynn728]

To be honest, I think this idea would be way better than hammering out a bunch of Mii costumes. Rather than making 15 Walmart-grade skins for a Mii, they could do 5 or so really high quality skins for existing characters. It wouldn't even matter if their assist trophies exist. We would still be able to get the likes of Shadow, Jeanne, Dixie Kong, Krystal, and who knows how many others. My only stipulation would be that they should obviously sell for much cheaper than a brand new character with stage. Maybe $1 or so each?

Yeah, I don't understand why they went with Mii Costume instead of Echo Fighters. Do they not know that people care more about characters and not these bootleg looking characters?

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

This is super unlikely but I'd love if they'd upgrade Shovel Knight to playable because replacing his assist wouldn't be nearly as hard to replace as others. Swap the model with Black Knight (Shovel Knight), add the spirit as a summon spirit, and then you're good, especially since Shovel Knight already has so many animations similar to a fighter. I just wish they had put the Plains of Passage theme in the game..

 

[Deleted member]

This is super unlikely but I'd love if they'd upgrade Shovel Knight to playable because replacing his assist wouldn't be nearly as hard to replace as others. Swap the model with Black Knight (Shovel Knight), add the spirit as a summon spirit, and then you're good, especially since Shovel Knight already has so many animations similar to a fighter. I just wish they had put the Plains of Passage theme in the game..

one impossible task at a time pls

besides, Shovel Knight is already a playable fighter in two fighting games and is about to be in a third.

 

[Firox]

one impossible task at a time pls

besides, Shovel Knight is already a playable fighter in two fighting games and is about to be in a third.

Wait a tick. What fighting game is Shovel Knight in?!

 

[Nicnac]

Wait a tick. What fighting game is Shovel Knight in?!

Rivals of Aether is the one I know.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

And actually MOST of the Echo fighters have substantial differences from their main counterparts. There's literally no reason for anyone to be against echoes.

Meanwhile back in Melee, Clones had a myriad of differences compared to their base counterparts despite mostly using the same moves. They have different base attributes like Dr. Mario being slower but stronger or Young Link being fast but weaker. Stuff like that helps characters feel more interesting instead of playing essentially the same but with a balanced blade or holy water just being filled with aura.

If you like Echo Fighters, that's totally fine but I deny the notion that there is no reason to be against them.

 

[MattX20]

Unrelated bit of trivia that I learned. The Scooby Doo franchise celebrates its 50th anniversary on September 13th.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

Unrelated bit of trivia that I learned. The Scooby Doo franchise celebrates its 50th anniversary on September 13th.

"Like, zoinks, Scoob! I don't know how I feel about that doll, man."

 

[Rohanx17]

Wait a tick. What fighting game is Shovel Knight in?!

If I remember correctly rivals of aether and indiepop. He has cameos in like half a dozen games now it's great.

 

[GenoToto]

If I remember correctly rivals of aether and indiepop. He has cameos in like half a dozen games now it's great.

I love that Shovel Knight is such a Pro Adventurer, he be traveling to different universes all the time like it ain't no thang

For Shovelry.

 

[Deleted member]

Wait a tick. What fighting game is Shovel Knight in?!

Rivals of Aether and Blade Strangers. Blade Strangers really flew under the radar and despite having a physical release I never saw it at retail.

 

[Firox]

Rivals of Aether and Blade Strangers. Blade Strangers really flew under the radar and despite having a physical release I never saw it at retail.

Huh. Now I'm curious enough to start doing some research...

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Welp, by your logic, we should be looking towards a distant future that isn't set.

If they can't even afford the costume, they can't afford the character. If he's not happening in the pass, then he's not happening at all. They have just enough funds to do everything related to the characters and are doing ghetto breakdowns to save money.

Good thing I didn't grab my hope back.

I'm getting second hand embarrassment from this comment. If you're gonna be this blatantly negative just on an (albeit educated) assumption then you probably need to just take a break from this thread.

That September direct cannot come soon enough.

 

[MisterMike]

I'd rather not have an Echo fighters pass or anymore Echo fighters. It feels like such a waste of a character slot to just make Echo Fighters glorified skins that barely do anything different from their base counterparts. If their moves had different properties like the Melee clones then they would at least have something unique to them. Ken is the only one that does this, why can't echo fighters be more like Ken?

Until Echo Fighters have stat differences, I don't wanna even think about a Fighters pass full of them.

Echo Fighters have never taken a spot from other more unique characters. Quite the contrary, actually. Sakurai has gone on record stating that Echoes/clones are always made AFTER the base roster has been completed as a sort of extra. And what would actually be the harm in an Echo Fighters pass anyhow? It'd take a lot less time and resources to develop, meaning it would come out a lot sooner and would cost significantly less than a full-fledged new fighter, especially considering they wouldn't need to be bundled with new music and a whole new stage due to being from an existing character's universe, and I think you'd agree that there are plenty of characters such as Medusa or Black Shadow who don't have a ghost of a chance compared to the likes of Geno or Crash and would never cut it as completely unique fighters, but could as Echo Fighters.
... Of course, this is all assuming they're even considering adding more fighters after this, and honestly I don't think they will. I think Sakurai stated that it would actually be easier to make a whole new game from the ground up rather than keep making DLC for an existing one, and if that's the case, then this Fighters Pass will probably be the end of it.

Meanwhile back in Melee, Clones had a myriad of differences compared to their base counterparts despite mostly using the same moves. They have different base attributes like Dr. Mario being slower but stronger or Young Link being fast but weaker. Stuff like that helps characters feel more interesting instead of playing essentially the same but with a balanced blade or holy water just being filled with aura.

If you like Echo Fighters, that's totally fine but I deny the notion that there is no reason to be against them.

But that's really all they've ever done with the clones in Melee. Other than that, they play almost exactly the same as their base fighters, so it's kind of a moot point if you ask me.

 

[Deleted member]

Meanwhile back in Melee, Clones had a myriad of differences compared to their base counterparts despite mostly using the same moves. They have different base attributes like Dr. Mario being slower but stronger or Young Link being fast but weaker. Stuff like that helps characters feel more interesting instead of playing essentially the same but with a balanced blade or holy water just being filled with aura.

If you like Echo Fighters, that's totally fine but I deny the notion that there is no reason to be against them.

I agree that it's weird that Ken and Chrom get to be somewhat different to their counterpart, but in general, echo fighters literally take less work than Melee's "clone" characters. Young Link isn't just fast and weaker - there's a ton of other attributes to consider about him, and the same could be said for Pichu and Ganondorf. Roy, Doc and Falco were more in line with modern echo fighters because they had different design philosophies, but the base character was still obvious.

Personally, I'm much more fond of the echo fighter distinction. It doesn't take any extra time to change one or two attributes on a move, make sure that the character is still balanced with those changes, and then move along to the next one.