Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Deleted member]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So... thoughts? I'm honestly suprised at the amount of SMRPG references there seems to be in Ultimate...

Means nothing

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

I think it could mean something. I'm not saying it does but it could. The amount of strange nods to SMRPG just kind of works with this. I doubt PP was meant to be a hint towards Geno but if he is, I will start maining the plant. Everyone said Plant killed Geno but what if it was the other way around?

 

[Ovaltine]

I think it could mean something. I'm not saying it does but it could. The amount of strange nods to SMRPG just kind of works with this. I doubt PP was meant to be a hint towards Geno but if he is, I will start maining the plant. Everyone said Plant killed Geno but what if it was the other way around?

That would be kind of funny, not gonna lie. I mean, it has at least two SMRPG references with its classic ending and the Palutena's Guidance (Smilax, Megasmilax, Chewies). It could be the sign that hey, Geno's coming, but we just don't know it. However, there is still the possibility that it could be references like, "Hey, we couldn't get Geno in Smash, but we're just reminding you that we haven't forgotten his fans or SMRPG." Hopefully it's the former.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

If there isn't going to be any DLC post fighters pass then I really hope that one of the last slots goes to at least one of these characters: Geno, Rayman, Crash, or Spyro. Obviously, Geno is far and away who I want most though. Honestly, chances don't seem great for any of them getting one of the last 2 spots in my opinion. I'm still of the notion that Square won't get 2 reps in the fighters pass and the other three just seem like pipe dreams, so I'm really hoping there will be additional DLC. I didn't even intend the "pipe dreams" pun but I'm ok with it.

 

[Deleted member]

Again, I really hope Geno's in. He'll prove that literally any character can get in, no matter how old they are or how frequently they've appeared. Even if he's in but Crash isn't, or vice versa, I'll be content. If they're both in the game, I will be ecstatic. Just those two will satisfy me a lot, I don't really need Shantae.

 

[ForsakenM]

Somewhere there is a timeline where Piranha Plant was a hint/goalpost for Geno and based on reception Sakurai would know whether or not Geno would still be received well since he's technically a Mario character. Since PP was so ill-received, Sakurai decided to give up on Geno since it's clear minds have changed.

I'm praying that timeline isn't ours.

 

[Ovaltine]

Somewhere there is a timeline where Piranha Plant was a hint/goalpost for Geno and based on reception Sakurai would know whether or not Geno would still be received well since he's technically a Mario character. Since PP was so ill-received, Sakurai decided to give up on Geno since it's clear minds have changed.

I'm praying that timeline isn't ours.

I sincerely doubt that. Generic first party mook Piranha Plant and unique third party character Geno are nowhere near the same beyond sharing a series. I wouldn't think that ill reception of PP would mean Sakurai would ditch the idea of Geno.

 

[N3ON]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So... thoughts? I'm honestly suprised at the amount of SMRPG references there seems to be in Ultimate...

I GOT BOXES FULLA

 

[JarBear]

Hmmm, plant seems to have quite a few references to MARIO RPG. It could just be nods to the game .... but I hope it means something.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

Still, it's not just Smash Bros that supports this. Yoshi's Wooly World has a reference to Yo'ster Isle Cookies! They didn't have to include that! I'm telling you, something fishy HAS to be going on with Geno because it isn't just Smash anymore. It's the Mario series as a whole.

 

[ForsakenM]

Still, it's not just Smash Bros that supports this. Yoshi's Wooly World has a reference to Yo'ster Isle Cookies! They didn't have to include that! I'm telling you, something fishy HAS to be going on with Geno because it isn't just Smash anymore. It's the Mario series as a whole.

See, it's **** like this that makes me want to grab back my hope.

Why the hell was Geno a trivia question at the VGAs?

Why the hell did NoA tweet randomly about SMRPG on a random anniversary?

Why in the hell is Geno's Mii Costume missing when it's literally free money?


Yet at the same time, {insert Ronin Meme here}.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

See, it's **** like this that makes me want to grab back my hope.

Why the hell was Geno a trivia question at the VGAs?

Why the hell did NoA tweet randomly about SMRPG on a random anniversary?

Why in the hell is Geno's Mii Costume missing when it's literally free money?


Yet at the same time, {insert Ronin Meme here}.

I understand that but you have to consider this: this is the most attention this character has been given by Nintendo since Mario and Luigi: Super Star Saga. I'm going in 99% now. Geno WILL most likely be in the DLC lineup. The amount of attention he's been given, the missing costume, and the amount of fan support from people like us make me think he IS going to be playable!

Geno for Ultimate!

 

[MattX20]

Aaaaare we sure about that? Did it ever have a pot quite like that before with the little notch in it and everything?

As far as I can tell, Super Mario RPG was the first time this happened.

 

[Axelocke]

I don't see how Nintendo could possibly sprinkle all these Mario RPG references in modern games without a big payoff, there are too many variables! The 2 songs, the tiny detail in Bowser's SSBU theme! tHe yO'sTer cOoKiEs!
Nintendo...? ...Wwwhat are you doing?...

 

[Rohanx17]

I understand that but you have to consider this: this is the most attention this character has been given by Nintendo since Mario and Luigi: Super Star Saga. I'm going in 99% now. Geno WILL most likely be in the DLC lineup. The amount of attention he's been given, the missing costume, and the amount of fan support from people like us make me think he IS going to be playable!

Geno for Ultimate!

the dream scenario would be that by the acknowledgement given geno in both the costume reveal and interview (and the old brawl poll) he sees him on an even higher level than the three impossibles we already got and has been playing 4d chess with us the whole time, constantly orchestrating all these breadcrumbs we've so ravenously collected as hints to the "big reveal" of SMRPG X smash and the triumphant return of geno. I imagine it would feel like how fatman so movingly described his first time reading the 2015 interview and the huge mental gratification all those years of theorizing sakurai's behind the scenes support of geno becoming reality. that being said the chance it means anything is slim but if we get geno in the end somewhere it will be hard to imagine that wasn't the case unless we just get direct deconfirmation from the man himself.

EDIT: even better, it gets paired with a smrpg hd remake/ster in the septermber direct or next big glut of game reveals, honestly given how decentralized to smash so many of these hints are if it weren't for us and sakurai's acknowledgement of us I would have seen the new game as a far more likely payoff to all of this.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

While I would certainly love to see another season of DLC ("Fighter's Pass #2: In-house Nintendo IP Edition!"), I think the likelihood is pretty slim, if only because with each new addition to the roster, the amount of testing and debugging that has to be done will only increase exponentially. I can't imagine a single extra fighter is easy to develop for, much less six.

Maybe it isn't as messy as I feel like it would be, but I mean -- even Kirby has to have more work done each and every time someone new joins the fight, because each new fighter brings a new Copy attack... which you have to make sure doesn't break the game when you use that new copy attack against every single other person in the roster, among other things. Stuff like that makes me question additional packs, especially when you factor in potential budgetary concerns and such.

I feel like keeping things to Nintendo's own IP would definitely help things out considerably, at least as far as the cost may go. Less of a concern for additional licensing and all that. So, if they decide to do more DLC after the current batch, maybe that'd be the route they'd take.

I feel like Nintendo has virtually no interest in just doing a season of "In-House Nintendo IPs." There just aren't enough characters Nintendo wants to invest DLC money into at this point outside of maybe another fan favorite. Like, there's no way of looking at the Fighter's Pass and then looking at an all-Nintendo fighter's pass and not being disappointed from any one who isn't us. At a certain point, first party fan requests are just going to result in diminishing returns for the company, and while a Dixie Kong and a Bandanna Dee might do OK, they're not going to bring the positive mainstream attention of crossovers and that's the sort of thing that will hurt them more than anything and that attention is the best free advertising you could ask for and keeps them from having to invest too much into advertising themselves. The games media isn't really going to get excited at a lot of first party options in the same way as they did for Banjo & Kazooie or Joker. Yeah, licensing is more expensive, but third parties have far more potential to achieve than a first party will ever have. I mean, think about it, Nintendo would rather sell a whole Switch and all of their IPs to a brand new customer rather than just sell a single DLC fighter to an existing customer (most Smash fans who vote in all those polls probably own Ultimate and a Switch already, so yes, you're not worth as much to Nintendo in that moment). That doesn't mean you throwaway fan service options completely and I would expect future DLC to maybe have another big fan request... but it's really sensible to just go with all first party fan requests either. Promotion would pretty much be the only upside, and to be quite frank, in the Switch era it seems like games don't need the same bump from Smash to sell a couple million copies anymore.


Also... I hate to be the one to say it, but, there's a real possibility with the budget that ties into why we don't have Geno's Mii costume. Sakurai talks about how much of a budget they have for the DLC and that their resources are very much stretched thin right now in trying to make this DLC cycle happen... What if licensing Geno just cost too much and put too much strain on the already limited budget? We know Square Enix stuff has a tendency to be expensive to license properly, so it's not out of the question that something like that could happen. In this scenario, it wouldn't matter how easy a port Geno's costume would be, because they just don't have the budget to allocate towards that specific Mii costume. That would also explain why the Chocobo hat didn't come back as well. Too expensive to license out those additional properties when they likely did a much larger deal for all the Dragon Quest content in the game and anything else from Square Enix was too expensive to license. Thus, despite "being an easy win," we still don't get Geno's Mii costume because they couldn't afford to license it for a return.

I know the immediate reaction would be to complain about Square Enix... but if you really think about it and listen to Sakurai, it's actually entirely on Nintendo for clearly not be willing to give a larger budget to Sakurai. It kind of seems like he would appreciate a bigger one as is (it's a huge step up from Smash 4 though... so that should really tell us something about Nintendo's approach to DLC) and maybe the Mii costume is something that would have happened with such a budget. But if it's between a Mii costume and more music tracks or a mode or something... then yeah, it's safe to say the costume is going.

Oof. that's my pessimistic thought of the day...

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

Also... I hate to be the one to say it, but, there's a real possibility with the budget that ties into why we don't have Geno's Mii costume. Sakurai talks about how much of a budget they have for the DLC and that their resources are very much stretched thin right now in trying to make this DLC cycle happen... What if licensing Geno just cost too much and put too much strain on the already limited budget? We know Square Enix stuff has a tendency to be expensive to license properly, so it's not out of the question that something like that could happen. In this scenario, it wouldn't matter how easy a port Geno's costume would be, because they just don't have the budget to allocate towards that specific Mii costume. That would also explain why the Chocobo hat didn't come back as well. Too expensive to license out those additional properties when they likely did a much larger deal for all the Dragon Quest content in the game and anything else from Square Enix was too expensive to license. Thus, despite "being an easy win," we still don't get Geno's Mii costume because they couldn't afford to license it for a return.

Oof. that's my pessimistic thought of the day...

I'd agree with you on the licensing part for the costume... Except for one possible counter. If they have the rights to use both Geno and Mallow as spirits, what would keep them from being able to use them as costumes or fighters? I absolutely have no clue how trademarks work but I imagine if you could use the character, you could do a set amount with that character beyond a appearance as a png. Would Nintendo have had to shell out more to get him as a fighter? Maybe(?) Again, I have no clue how that works but I don't think the budget of now would have effected something that would've been decided last year and, probably, already agreed on and signed off. I imagine the budget isn't referring to the characters or content but the resources and workers(?)

 

[SSGuy]

Aaaaare we sure about that? Did it ever have a pot quite like that before with the little notch in it and everything?

The only other time I can imagine the pot having a notch in it would be from something like Mario Kart 8 because he needed little wheels.

Spoiler

Yet it doesn't seem to have ever had a notch in the bottom like that.

Most every other version of plant has had a closed pot.

https://mariokart.fandom.com/wiki/Potted_Piranha_Plant Even the most official up to date render of Piranha Plant (Deluxe U) specifically has a closed pot.

It's a strange coincidence but far from something I would consider Sakurai going out of his way to hint at.

If we can find some gardening experts that can know that there are clay pots out there with 'drain holes' in that style, let us know! Maybe Sakurai referenced a legitimate style of pot out there.

 

[Ovaltine]

I'd agree with you on the licensing part for the costume... Except for one possible counter. If they have the rights to use both Geno and Mallow as spirits, what would keep them from being able to use them as costumes or fighters? I absolutely have no clue how trademarks work but I imagine if you could use the character, you could do a set amount with that character beyond a appearance as a png. Would Nintendo have had to shell out more to get him as a fighter? Maybe(?) Again, I have no clue how that works but I don't think the budget of now would have effected something that would've been decided last year and, probably, already agreed on and signed off. I imagine the budget isn't referring to the characters or content but the resources and workers(?)

Licensing for the PNG of his likeness versus reusing the costume are probably on different levels. Besides, the base game and the DLC have two different budgets, so that shouldn't have impact on one another. They could have easily had the budget for Geno's spirit in the base game, but not enough for his costume.

That's a pretty tough point to think about, but that is a realistic possibility. Oof...

 

[TheCJBrine]

As pointed out earlier, Waluigi's Piranha Plant has a notched pot.

Basically, Waluigi gave up his playable status for this beautiful specimen.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I'd agree with you on the licensing part for the costume... Except for one possible counter. If they have the rights to use both Geno and Mallow as spirits, what would keep them from being able to use them as costumes or fighters? I absolutely have no clue how trademarks work but I imagine if you could use the character, you could do a set amount with that character beyond a appearance as a png. Would Nintendo have had to shell out more to get him as a fighter? Maybe(?) Again, I have no clue how that works but I don't think the budget of now would have effected something that would've been decided last year and, probably, already agreed on and signed off. I imagine the budget isn't referring to the characters or content but the resources and workers(?)

Hate to break it to you, but that's generally not how licensing works. From my admittedly limited understanding of law, licenses for characters and such typically aren't given out for companies to do with as they please; rather, they're usually licensed out for specific usages. Therefore, if Square Enix licensed out Geno for a cameo as a Spirit and Nintendo decided to add him as a character or a Mii Costume, Squenix could probably sue Nintendo's ass. And as much as some of us want Geno, I don't think any of us want that.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

Alright, well, time for what I think is going on. A New Challenger Approaches!:

Spoiler: Economics and Smash

I believe Sakurai, when referring to the budget, could potentially mean two things. The big problem: Copyrights vs Capital & Labor.

I feel as though Sakurai is referring to Capital & Labor. When he talks about not having a budget for this, he's referring to the production value of the "direct." He isn't referring to the characters or content that would come with said characters. That would be referring to the script writer, the resources to make the "direct," the dev team, the editors, and plenty of other things. That's a lot of money that got pushed into the mini direct he did for Joker.

Here's an example of what I mean from his recent Famitsu post:
"He conducted the live stream on his own.
In the program he joked about "not having much of a budget for this" but it's the truth!

Before the team prepared an edited video for Joker, but they definitely can't do it for every DLC character....

So, Sakurai decided to ad lib the presentation. There was no script. Sakurai decided general things to talk about but he just kind of threw it together. It was comparable to a YouTuber.
While he was talking he was controlling the game by himself, with no help, the whole time.

Because it was just Sakurai, he didn't need to pay for someone else to be in the video. He also didn't need people to record the footage. Editing the video was short -- it took less than 2 hours. Of course it needed to be translated, but this method was the most cost effective."

This means that the directs and resources to make them (capital) and the workers behind the scenes (labor) are the ones who take up the most amount of the budget.

It is, I believe, extremely unlikely that the characters and content for the DLC are the reason for the budget issues because, as we know, the DLC Lineup was finalized November 6, 2018, as shown here. https://mobile.twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1059958604818657282

It would make no sense from a business or financial standpoint to let Nintendo decide the full DLC roster and content to go with them without having paid the appropriate trademarks beforehand. That has the potential to ruin and delay the DLC until a company agrees to have a character in Smash. The budget of the DLC lineup would not affect what content would get in because it had already been paid for as late as November 6.

I'm sure there's a hole or two but that's my two bits on it. By that logic above, either Geno will be in as a fighter or his costume won't appear at all.

Ah, right. Now that makes sense, Ze Diglett . Good point.

 

[GenoToto]

I feel I must have missed something, because I was under the impression the budgetary concerns were in regards to the allotted amount for their presentations to show off characters, from Hero moving forward. I can't fathom that Nintendo would not have enough money for this particular franchise, considering that if you consider that over 14 million copies have sold, at a $60.00 price tag (or equivalent thereof), Ultimate is getting pretty close to almost $1 Billion in sales.

Of course, I'm not going to sit here and claim to be an expert on their finances, and know what they've invested into the game and how much that's cut into the current earnings, etc. Certainly not. But, I get a certain feeling that the entire game's budget hasn't exactly dried up. I almost want to say they're cutting down on presentation costs so that they won't have to cut into other things they need to do -- and, really, who knows what it is they're trying to hard to not cut into at this rate?

I mean. Aside from the near-billion revenue the game has generated. But, again -- expert, not I. Just some running thoughts.

 

[Ovaltine]

Alright, well, time for what I think is going on. A New Challenger Approaches!:

Spoiler: Economics and Smash

I believe Sakurai, when referring to the budget, could potentially mean two things. The big problem: Copyrights vs Capital & Labor.

I feel as though Sakurai is referring to Capital & Labor. When he talks about not having a budget for this, he's referring to the production value of the "direct." He isn't referring to the characters or content that would come with said characters. That would be referring to the script writer, the resources to make the "direct," the dev team, the editors, and plenty of other things. That's a lot of money that got pushed into the mini direct he did for Joker.

Here's an example of what I mean from his recent Famitsu post:
"He conducted the live stream on his own.
In the program he joked about "not having much of a budget for this" but it's the truth!

Before the team prepared an edited video for Joker, but they definitely can't do it for every DLC character....

So, Sakurai decided to ad lib the presentation. There was no script. Sakurai decided general things to talk about but he just kind of threw it together. It was comparable to a YouTuber.
While he was talking he was controlling the game by himself, with no help, the whole time.

Because it was just Sakurai, he didn't need to pay for someone else to be in the video. He also didn't need people to record the footage. Editing the video was short -- it took less than 2 hours. Of course it needed to be translated, but this method was the most cost effective."

This means that the directs and resources to make them (capital) and the workers behind the scenes (labor) are the ones who take up the most amount of the budget.

It is, I believe, extremely unlikely that the characters and content for the DLC are the reason for the budget issues because, as we know, the DLC Lineup was finalized November 6, 2018, as shown here. https://mobile.twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1059958604818657282

It would make no sense from a business or financial standpoint to let Nintendo decide the full DLC roster and content to go with them without having paid the appropriate trademarks beforehand. That has the potential to ruin and delay the DLC until a company agrees to have a character in Smash. The budget of the DLC lineup would not affect what content would get in because it had already been paid for as late as November 6.

I'm sure there's a hole or two but that's my two bits on it.

Huh, you know what, that actually does make sense. That does make me feel a little better about the costume bit. It is still a possibility that the outfit was omitted to save money for other things, but that does make me feel more inclined to believe that the costume's omitted for a reason. Of course, that reason could still be bringing it back later down the line, but... eh, who knows?

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

Huh, you know what, that actually does make sense. That does make me feel a little better about the costume bit. It is still a possibility that the outfit was omitted to save money for other things, but that does make me feel more inclined to believe that the costume's omitted for a reason. Of course, that reason could still be bringing it back later down the line, but... eh, who knows?

Ha ha! Two weeks of high school economics I just learned paid off! Teach will be proud!

 

[MisterMike]

Alright, well, time for what I think is going on. A New Challenger Approaches!:

Spoiler: Economics and Smash

I believe Sakurai, when referring to the budget, could potentially mean two things. The big problem: Copyrights vs Capital & Labor.

I feel as though Sakurai is referring to Capital & Labor. When he talks about not having a budget for this, he's referring to the production value of the "direct." He isn't referring to the characters or content that would come with said characters. That would be referring to the script writer, the resources to make the "direct," the dev team, the editors, and plenty of other things. That's a lot of money that got pushed into the mini direct he did for Joker.

Here's an example of what I mean from his recent Famitsu post:
"He conducted the live stream on his own.
In the program he joked about "not having much of a budget for this" but it's the truth!

Before the team prepared an edited video for Joker, but they definitely can't do it for every DLC character....

So, Sakurai decided to ad lib the presentation. There was no script. Sakurai decided general things to talk about but he just kind of threw it together. It was comparable to a YouTuber.
While he was talking he was controlling the game by himself, with no help, the whole time.

Because it was just Sakurai, he didn't need to pay for someone else to be in the video. He also didn't need people to record the footage. Editing the video was short -- it took less than 2 hours. Of course it needed to be translated, but this method was the most cost effective."

This means that the directs and resources to make them (capital) and the workers behind the scenes (labor) are the ones who take up the most amount of the budget.

It is, I believe, extremely unlikely that the characters and content for the DLC are the reason for the budget issues because, as we know, the DLC Lineup was finalized November 6, 2018, as shown here. https://mobile.twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1059958604818657282

It would make no sense from a business or financial standpoint to let Nintendo decide the full DLC roster and content to go with them without having paid the appropriate trademarks beforehand. That has the potential to ruin and delay the DLC until a company agrees to have a character in Smash. The budget of the DLC lineup would not affect what content would get in because it had already been paid for as late as November 6.

I'm sure there's a hole or two but that's my two bits on it. By that logic above, either Geno will be in as a fighter or his costume won't appear at all.

Ah, right. Now that makes sense, Ze Diglett . Good point.

Well said! If memory serves, Sakurai stated that they actually has something of a surplus of funds for the DLC, so it'd be kind of weird that people think this lack of budget has anything to do with the DLC itself. I mean, could you imagine if that were the case?

"We were going to add Geno as a playable fighter, but unfortunately we ran out of budget, so here's Cardboard Boy as the final DLC fighter. Never ask me for anything ever again."

 

[Giga Kaiju]

Reviews of the games have been out a couple a days ago and they are good https://www.metacritic.com/game/switch/astral-chain

Nice. I'll get the game eventually then. Glad to see that it it's good.

Hopefully Daemon X Machina Is just as good.

 

[link2702]

on the design of pp's pot....

it's almost always been in pipes which is why you've never seen something like that. Most of the time it's ever been shown in a pot it's had that drainage notch, SMRPG or not.

of course it COULD be a reference to smrpg, as after all the ending poster for pp is most certainly a pretty blatantly obvious SMRPG reference, as is the mention of smilax. But the pot it's in....that's a bit more vague if it's a reference......

 

[wynn728]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So... thoughts? I'm honestly suprised at the amount of SMRPG references there seems to be in Ultimate...

Honestly, way more insulting like this than Piranha Plant was already is.

"Yeah here's all the SMRPG reference, here's a Geno Spirit, this is what you guys wanted. This is the extent of representation Geno fans wanted. No we'll not make Geno playable, but look at all the references!"

Piranha Plant just seems like the gift that just keeps punch you in the gut.

 

[Slime Scholar]

There is practically zero chance that drainage hole in Piranha Plant's pot is a reference to Mario RPG. It's a generic design. Go to the wikipedia page for a flowerpot and you'll see the exact same kind of hole.

I could see references like Megasmilax being worth raising an eyebrow over, but this is getting silly.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

There is practically zero chance that drainage hole in Piranha Plant's pot is a reference to Mario RPG. It's a generic design. Go to the wikipedia page for a flowerpot and you'll see the exact same kind of hole.

I could see references like Megasmilax being worth raising an eyebrow over, but this is getting silly.

We're all a little loony, to be fair.

 

[wynn728]

While I would certainly love to see another season of DLC ("Fighter's Pass #2: In-house Nintendo IP Edition!"), I think the likelihood is pretty slim, if only because with each new addition to the roster, the amount of testing and debugging that has to be done will only increase exponentially. I can't imagine a single extra fighter is easy to develop for, much less six.

Maybe it isn't as messy as I feel like it would be, but I mean -- even Kirby has to have more work done each and every time someone new joins the fight, because each new fighter brings a new Copy attack... which you have to make sure doesn't break the game when you use that new copy attack against every single other person in the roster, among other things. Stuff like that makes me question additional packs, especially when you factor in potential budgetary concerns and such.

I feel like keeping things to Nintendo's own IP would definitely help things out considerably, at least as far as the cost may go. Less of a concern for additional licensing and all that. So, if they decide to do more DLC after the current batch, maybe that'd be the route they'd take.

Every game takes a lot of time to make with their own difficulty. It would probably be more difficult to make a brand new game when compare to making 5 more DLC Fighter

 

[AugustusB]

We're all a little loony, to be fair.

But are we in a cartoony...invading your TV!?
(If anyone gets that, I will be impressed)

Also, I agree that the 'budget' comment was more in regards to the presentation of Hero. Now the only way we can get a grasp of this is Banjo's presentation. If it is similar to Hero's, then maybe.

 

[maf91186]

But are we in a cartoony...invading your TV!?
(If anyone gets that, I will be impressed)

Also, I agree that the 'budget' comment was more in regards to the presentation of Hero. Now the only way we can get a grasp of this is Banjo's presentation. If it is similar to Hero's, then maybe.

It's Tiny Toons.
But I have an unfair advantage lol

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Alright, well, time for what I think is going on. A New Challenger Approaches!:

Spoiler: Economics and Smash

I believe Sakurai, when referring to the budget, could potentially mean two things. The big problem: Copyrights vs Capital & Labor.

I feel as though Sakurai is referring to Capital & Labor. When he talks about not having a budget for this, he's referring to the production value of the "direct." He isn't referring to the characters or content that would come with said characters. That would be referring to the script writer, the resources to make the "direct," the dev team, the editors, and plenty of other things. That's a lot of money that got pushed into the mini direct he did for Joker.

Here's an example of what I mean from his recent Famitsu post:
"He conducted the live stream on his own.
In the program he joked about "not having much of a budget for this" but it's the truth!

Before the team prepared an edited video for Joker, but they definitely can't do it for every DLC character....

So, Sakurai decided to ad lib the presentation. There was no script. Sakurai decided general things to talk about but he just kind of threw it together. It was comparable to a YouTuber.
While he was talking he was controlling the game by himself, with no help, the whole time.

Because it was just Sakurai, he didn't need to pay for someone else to be in the video. He also didn't need people to record the footage. Editing the video was short -- it took less than 2 hours. Of course it needed to be translated, but this method was the most cost effective."

This means that the directs and resources to make them (capital) and the workers behind the scenes (labor) are the ones who take up the most amount of the budget.

It is, I believe, extremely unlikely that the characters and content for the DLC are the reason for the budget issues because, as we know, the DLC Lineup was finalized November 6, 2018, as shown here. https://mobile.twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1059958604818657282

It would make no sense from a business or financial standpoint to let Nintendo decide the full DLC roster and content to go with them without having paid the appropriate trademarks beforehand. That has the potential to ruin and delay the DLC until a company agrees to have a character in Smash. The budget of the DLC lineup would not affect what content would get in because it had already been paid for as late as November 6.

I'm sure there's a hole or two but that's my two bits on it. By that logic above, either Geno will be in as a fighter or his costume won't appear at all.

Ah, right. Now that makes sense, Ze Diglett . Good point.

That makes more sense in the context of the Fighters themselves... but not necessarily with regards to the Mii costumes. While I would generally think that all of the character would be decided in one deal, if there was any element to be negotiated later, it would be the Mii costumes since they don't inherently have to be developed along everything else and generally speaking aren't a required and determined part of the the other DLC present in the Fighter's Pass. The costumes haven't been promised to any extent, so there's only a very intangible need to deliver them. There's a potential scenario that while the licensing of the fighters and their main content included in the packs were decided upon all at the same time, the Mii costumes were left to Sakurai's discretion and he had a certain amount of funding to make that happen. We don't know the details behind the capital and labor distributions to really write this off. It's also possible Sakurai was given a nice big check to decide everything on beforehand and he devoted part of it to licensing and part of it to the actual development of the DLC. Or maybe Nintendo looked at how much Geno cost to license for a costume in Smash 4 and said, "Nah." There's lots of situations in which the labor vs capital argument doesn't necessarily solve anything, especially since we have basically no idea about Smash DLC lol.

For reference, I'm 100% convinced Geno is not happening in the Fighter's Pass, so I have been trying to figure out why his Mii costume wouldn't have come back with Hero. And the idea that the funding just wasn't there to pay for the costume's return makes the absolute most sense to me (You can argue you think he's in the pass all you want, you're not changing my mind on it and my comments on the lack of funding for the Mii costume are based specifically on that presumption that he isn't in the pass).

 

[ForsakenM]

That makes more sense in the context of the Fighters themselves... but not necessarily with regards to the Mii costumes. While I would generally think that all of the character would be decided in one deal, if there was any element to be negotiated later, it would be the Mii costumes since they don't inherently have to be developed along everything else and generally speaking aren't a required and determined part of the the other DLC present in the Fighter's Pass. The costumes haven't been promised to any extent, so there's only a very intangible need to deliver them. There's a potential scenario that while the licensing of the fighters and their main content included in the packs were decided upon all at the same time, the Mii costumes were left to Sakurai's discretion and he had a certain amount of funding to make that happen. We don't know the details behind the capital and labor distributions to really write this off. It's also possible Sakurai was given a nice big check to decide everything on beforehand and he devoted part of it to licensing and part of it to the actual development of the DLC. Or maybe Nintendo looked at how much Geno cost to license for a costume in Smash 4 and said, "Nah." There's lots of situations in which the labor vs capital argument doesn't necessarily solve anything, especially since we have basically no idea about Smash DLC lol.

For reference, I'm 100% convinced Geno is not happening in the Fighter's Pass, so I have been trying to figure out why his Mii costume wouldn't have come back with Hero. And the idea that the funding just wasn't there to pay for the costume's return makes the absolute most sense to me (You can argue you think he's in the pass all you want, you're not changing my mind on it and my comments on the lack of funding for the Mii costume are based specifically on that presumption that he isn't in the pass).

Welp, by your logic, we should be looking towards a distant future that isn't set.

If they can't even afford the costume, they can't afford the character. If he's not happening in the pass, then he's not happening at all. They have just enough funds to do everything related to the characters and are doing ghetto breakdowns to save money.

Good thing I didn't grab my hope back.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

I'll provide another counter argument for that.

Yes, the Mii costumes are not guaranteed for a fighter. However, based off the content we have seen so far, it seems like those are pretty much guaranteed to come with a fighter. I also highly doubt that the costumes were planned after the DLC was finalized because the costumes count as DLC. He didn't say fighters. He didn't say the Fighter's Pass. He said DLC, as in, all of it. The costumes had to have been chosen by November 6, on the same day the rest of the DLC was finalized. It would be tedious to try and make more deals for additional costumes once a particular company has a fighter and its time passes because that moment in time belongs to that company. I'd be a bit upset if they threw in a Heihachi costume during Banjo's Mii costume run (let's be honest, it's going to happen). It would make sense for Conker or Steve because they're from those companies. I truly believe that the costumes were picked alongside their respective fighter to give that character, and the company who owns them, a moment to shine.

It would save time and money to handle it all in one fell swoop (or multiple because, let's be honest, business isn't that easy).

And yes, we don't know what the costs are for all the assets. However, it's extremely likely that's what he was referring to and, most likely, they are running on seperate budgets. One where they paid for those rights by 11/6 and one regarding the development of the DLC right now.

That would mean either Geno isn't getting in at all, the costume will be used for a new Square rep in the Fighter's Pass, or Geno will finally be playable.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Knowing Banjo is going to playable has made this wait a lot more bearable for me.

I just hate how I can't access his page yet.

 

[Ovaltine]

Welp, by your logic, we should be looking towards a distant future that isn't set.

If they can't even afford the costume, they can't afford the character. If he's not happening in the pass, then he's not happening at all. They have just enough funds to do everything related to the characters and are doing ghetto breakdowns to save money.

Good thing I didn't grab my hope back.

That is damn painful. I really hope that's not the case. I'm going to keep hoping, but cautiously.

Uh... so, uh... stress doodle? Hurricane is a-comin' my way, and I've been feeling dreadful, so I doodled a Geno to cope.

friend spotted! pic.twitter.com/sMmhCEfBre

— bnuuy. ★ (@pepperonisecret) August 29, 2019

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Welp, by your logic, we should be looking towards a distant future that isn't set.

If they can't even afford the costume, they can't afford the character. If he's not happening in the pass, then he's not happening at all. They have just enough funds to do everything related to the characters and are doing ghetto breakdowns to save money.

Good thing I didn't grab my hope back.

I'm talking very specifically to the scenario of no Geno in the Fighter's Pass. This isn't a matter of "they can't even afford the costume so they can't afford the character," it's the idea that with the extra resources beyond the main Fighter's Pass content of character, stage, and music that they didn't have the funds to afford the character's costume in this specific instance of DLC production or they allocated funds to something else that they deemed more important for the value proposition (like say one of the smaller modes they've added). There's a certain amount of resources available at the outset of the project and you'd prioritize the characters first of all and licensing for them, then the stages, then the music. Those are the three elements you've promised with a Fighter's Pass and have to be developed because customers are paying money for them. Everything else can be considered extra and you'd likely be dividing the remainder across the modes and Mii costumes. If Geno is more expensive than others, he may get left out to either accommodate more costumes or the extra modes being developed or whatever.

Whether or not more DLC is happening is an entirely different issue (though based upon Sakurai's comments, I think it's safe to say the bonus DLC dream is probably dead or at least much shakier ground) and that's your prerogative to decide if a no Geno in the Fighter's Pass means no Geno based upon that belief. I don't really get why the "ghetto breakdowns" was included or necessary here...

I'll provide another counter argument for that.

Yes, the Mii costumes are not guaranteed for a fighter. However, based off the content we have seen so far, it seems like those are pretty much guaranteed to come with a fighter. I also highly doubt that the costumes were planned after the DLC was finalized because the costumes count as DLC. He didn't say fighters. He didn't say the Fighter's Pass. He said DLC, as in, all of it. The costumes had to have been chosen by November 6, on the same day the rest of the DLC was finalized. It would be tedious to try and make more deals for additional costumes once a particular company has a fighter and its time passes because that moment in time belongs to that company. I'd be a bit upset if they threw in a Heihachi costume during Banjo's Mii costume run (let's be honest, it's going to happen). It would make sense for Conker or Steve because they're from those companies. I truly believe that the costumes were picked alongside their respective fighter to give that character, and the company who owns them, a moment to shine.

It would save time and money to handle it all in one fell swoop (or multiple because, let's be honest, business isn't that easy).

And yes, we don't know what the costs are for all the assets. However, it's extremely likely that's what he was referring to and, most likely, they are running on seperate budgets. One where they paid for those rights by 11/6 and one regarding the development of the DLC right now.

That would mean either Geno isn't getting in at all, the costume will be used for a new Square rep in the Fighter's Pass, or Geno will finally be playable.

That's a semantics issue that you can't prove in terms of "DLC" chosen. I'm absolutely inclined to say that just refers to characters with the exact quote of: "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate DLC's line-up is now complete. This time the selection was made entirely by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan." Like he refers to line-up in reference to the choice of characters frames the quote with him deciding if a fighter can be specifically realized. So, no, I don't think there's much of a leg to stand on regarding the idea that Mii costumes were definitely decided upon by this point already. I mean, it's possible they were, I'm not denying that. But I'm also saying the costumes are in a much less defined state than even the fighters themselves and it's possible negotiations or decisions were made at different points in the process. We know for a fact that Sakurai stays in contact with companies, so it's possible that the relatively minor process of Mii costume creation was lower priority and took place after everything. Not to mention that still doesn't cover decisions made before that point that involve there not being enough money to license the Mii costume when negotiations were taking place beforehand. If they decided on all DLC beforehand and plans regarding what would be produced, it's possible that Geno still got chopped for costing too much to license when those resources could be better allocated elsewhere.

And we'll see if the pattern regarding Mii costumes only from that company holds or not. It has for the first two, so it's more likely than a lot of things, but there's a lot of potential for Mii costumes I would think and it's one of the easiest patterns to break. Sakurai has a lot of control over all of this (so much of DLC is left up to question) and as Director he would be choosing how to allocate all funds regarding Smash, so it's not exactly unreasonable to bring these points up.

We've been looking for an explanation to no Mii costume. The budget comments (just like his DLC comments in his book, which are given further weight now with yet more discussions of DLC funding by the way) of today potentially reorient how we might need to look at this picture. I thought it somewhat odd Geno's Mii costume didn't turn up with Hero, but also didn't think it meant anything. Now I potentially have an answer as to why, so I'm going to explore those ideas. I'm not saying you have to follow my trains of thought completely, but I also don't think it's so easily dismissed either. And again, I've operated under the assumption Geno wouldn't be in the Fighter's Pass since Joker's reveal and I've zero evidence to dissuade me from that thought, so that's what always colors my discussions on Geno's chances for Ultimate.

That is damn painful. I really hope that's not the case. I'm going to keep hoping, but cautiously.

Uh... so, uh... stress doodle? Hurricane is a-comin' my way, and I've been feeling dreadful, so I doodled a Geno to cope.

On a much lighter note, I don't know if I've said it, but your drawings are always wonderful and cute! Keep repping our puppet boy in the best way.

Stay safe and as dry as you can if Dorian hits your neck of the woods. Hopefully the weather will shift enough to maybe lessen the blow, but we all wish you the best!